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Sinn Fein misuse expenses

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    #92
    LostinKildare
    Registered Users Posts: 990 ✭✭✭LostinKildare


    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    But as for this instance. That was taxpayers money. Some voted for FG some voted for FF and some for SF. But the majority of voters voted for FG . The electorate is diverse THAT is why you cannot use taxpayers money to fund your activists to grow your party. Using taxpayers money to promote Sinn Féin or any party is wrong..it is undemocratic and immoral.Most of those people do not support SF or want their money to go to drumming up more support for SF. It is like using taxpayers money to support your own campaign ..it is immoral.


    It also shows SF would be useless in this current cliate when when need accounting regualarity and adherance to rules..

    By the way it is NOT socialism to put taxpayers money into your cronies pockets...it is helping out a friend FF territory. SF activists ARE NOT public servants ..they are not ad should not be on the pay role . Nor should any party activists that money is not to promote your party or your campaigns.

    As I understand it, it was his own money, not "taxpayers'" money.

    That is, he had already paid 11,000 out of his own pocket for diesel and tolls. He was reimbursed the 11,000.

    As a reimbursment of his outlay, the money was his to spend as he wished. If he wanted to use it to hire people to work for him, well so what?

    A non-story.

    Doherty's statement: http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/23695


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    #93
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,466 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    LostinKildare wrote: »
    Oh come on, it's not that hard to understand, except, apparently, for people blinded by their hatred of SF

    He underclaimed for his travel expenses -- apparently he thought he was entitled to diesel and tolls only, when actually there was a higher mileage allowance that takes in motor tax, car depreciation, etc.

    He claimed only 11,000, when he was entitled to claim 22,000 for the distance he had traveled.

    When paying tolls and filling your car with diesel, you pay with the money in your wallet (i.e., your own money) and then you recoup that money via an expense claim.

    So, apparently, when he received that 11,000 reimbursement (having mistakenly shortchanged himself by a significant amount), INSTEAD OF USING IT TO PAY HIMSELF BACK FOR HIS OUTLAY, he used (most of) the lump sum to create a few jobs for people.

    Far from ripping off the "taxpayer," he's benefitted the "taxpayer" by several thousand --- first by underclaiming (by 11,000), second by presumably taking a few people off the dole. At his own expense.

    But he's SF so he must be baaaaaaaaad.

    So, he used the unspent milage money to hire workers for himself, then when found out, miraculously came up (on his second go) with some unvouched expenses which filled the gap perfectly.

    And now is paying the workers out of his own pocket, despite apparantly living on the "average industrial wage".

    I have some magic beans for sale, interested?


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    #94
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Should I mention the 9 years in the 1990's when FG were paying party activists in cash 'under the table' payments?
    Or does that not matter.

    YES ..IT MATTERS GREATLY..why do you assume i could ever accept that??

    It's insulting.

    I find infuriating and disgusting.

    Don't just mention it shout it condemn it and stamp it out of all parties.

    As for it being his own money and him re-imbersing...

    It was not his to 'borrow' anyway

    And he used partitioned money to hire staff then when he realized he paid it back out of other public money ?

    You just don't hire staff in five mins you have to do paper work prsi numbers etc i mean i assume he hired them legally?

    Of course he knew what he was doing.

    Shows they don't care about workers too as when actions like this take place there is no job security.
    And public money from a diverse electorate is not meant to aid the promotion of one political view.

    It's wrong...

    It definitely needs looking into and he does not convince me.

    It is true through we need to stamp this out in ALL parties totally.


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    #95
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Should I mention the 9 years in the 1990's when FG were paying party activists in cash 'under the table' payments?
    Or does that not matter.
    Of course it matters (if true, I don't know the story myself but wouldn't be at all surprised). NO PARTY should be paying its activists from taxpayers' money, regardless of the source. Why do you think wrongdoing in SF is somehow neutralised by wrongdoing in FG?

    When people attack SF for doing wrong, it doesn't mean they automatically and blindly support some other party and forgive their transgressions. If SF want to play the game, then be prepared to be scrutinised like any other party as is right and proper in any democracy.

    If anything we need a lot more scrutiny in politics.


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    #96
    thecommietommy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭thecommietommy


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mileage-controversy-councillor-set-to-be-mayor-after-fg-pact-3134112.html <<<Media conspiracy suspicions solved I think Oireachtas rules should be next?

    As a point of rederence Did the lad who used all the ink toners break any Oireachtas rules?
    Firstly off topic. But since you asked, O'Snodaigh didn't actually break any rules or guidelines as ridiculous the amount he used was.


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    #97
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    thecommietommy wrote: »
    Firstly off topic. But since you asked, O'Snodaigh didn't actually break any rules or guidelines as ridiculous the amount he used was.


    Aren't Gardai investigating Ó'Snodaígh's "use" of printer cartridges?


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    #98
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    He paid for the people to do the job for him out of his personal money.
    Later he listed the things paid for in that period from his money and that was on of them. It wasn't like he bought himself a yacht and then claimed it on expenses.


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    #99
    thecommietommy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭thecommietommy


    nuac wrote: »
    Aren't Gardai investigating Ó'Snodaígh's "use" of printer cartridges?
    Not aware of it whatsoever, but if you can provide a reliable link to what appears to be a rumour.

    ( BTW, the coppers would have more than their hands full if they investigated every Gombeen politican in the Dail :rolleyes: Thy'd have to double in size )


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    #100
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    murphaph wrote: »
    Of course it matters (if true, I don't know the story myself but wouldn't be at all surprised). NO PARTY should be paying its activists from taxpayers' money, regardless of the source. Why do you think wrongdoing in SF is somehow neutralised by wrongdoing in FG?

    When people attack SF for doing wrong, it doesn't mean they automatically and blindly support some other party and forgive their transgressions. If SF want to play the game, then be prepared to be scrutinised like any other party as is right and proper in any democracy.

    If anything we need a lot more scrutiny in politics.


    And isn't that why Doherty is calling for all expenses to be vouched.

    It won't happen though, too many snouts in the trough and as they say 'turkeys don't vote for christmas'.


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    #101
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    nuac wrote: »
    Aren't Gardai investigating Ó'Snodaígh's "use" of printer cartridges?

    Why don't the Gardai investigate the extra payments, above what was agreed, that FG/Lab are paying their 'special advisors'?


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    #102
    thecommietommy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭thecommietommy


    Laminations wrote: »
    I don't care if he drove his car up every botharin in Ireland. He misused funds. He claimed so much in travel expenses and used the rest to employ staff. Just because he is now producing evidence of mileage that would have eaten up all his expenses doesn't mean he was right in what he did. He should have used his travel and accommodation expenses to claim for that mileage.

    It's like a person claiming 1000e for the bike to work scheme, using that money for some other purpose and then when caught out saying 'oh well I bought a bike with my own money and it was more than the allowance'

    It's misuse of expenses and just because it's not against any rules doesn't mean it is right.

    No.Apologies.Here
    " I don't care " - just about sums it up Laminations. Still isn't it great that we have someone like Enda defering his €100k pension lump-sum until he leaves politics ........

    http://www.thejournal.ie/kenny-says-he-will-defer-e100k-pension-lump-sum-until-he-leaves-politics-87736-Feb2011/


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    #103
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    thecommietommy wrote: »
    " I don't care " - just about sums it up Laminations. Still isn't it great that we have someone like Enda defering his €100k pension lump-sum until he leaves politics ........

    http://www.thejournal.ie/kenny-says-he-will-defer-e100k-pension-lump-sum-until-he-leaves-politics-87736-Feb2011/

    You couldn't make it up, could you?

    Geldolf was right, Banana Republic!


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    #104
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    I don't think any particular political party has covered themselves in glory in recent years and I include Fine Gael in that.

    They have all worked the system ruthlessly.


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    #105
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    I don't think any particular political party has covered themselves in glory in recent years and I include Fine Gael in that.

    They have all worked the system ruthlessly.



    ....so Sinn Fein should continue their run of dodgy activities with taxpayer euros?

    Should we get Michael Healy Rae back up to work the phones? Should we get Bertie back as minister for finance, because "ah sure, they all did it"?

    I'm not quite sure what point the SFers in this thread are trying to make. Are we to assume that these dodgy activities are to continue unabated because there is some sort of implied 'get out of jail free' card applicable to Sinn Fein every time they misuse public moneys?


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    #106
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    ....so Sinn Fein should continue their run of dodgy activities with taxpayer euros?

    Should we get Michael Healy Rae back up to work the phones? Should we get Bertie back as minister for finance, because "ah sure, they all did it"?

    I'm not quite sure what point the SFers in this thread are trying to make. Are we to assume that these dodgy activities are to continue unabated because there is some sort of implied 'get out of jail free' card applicable to Sinn Fein every time they misuse public moneys?

    The point is that the whole expenses system needs to be changed to a vouched/verified system.

    Every politician has their nose stuck deep in the trough, but all we get on here are SF bashing threads.

    As I've said already, does it not sound even more dodgy that 5 ministers in the current government were able to use their expenses so accurately that they could return sums of just €10 - €40?


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    #107
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    The point is that the whole expenses system needs to be changed to a vouched/verified system.

    Every politician has their nose stuck deep in the trough, but all we get on here are SF bashing threads.

    As I've said already, does it not sound even more dodgy that 5 ministers in the current government were able to use their expenses so accurately that they could return sums of just €10 - €40?

    Look gerryo, the constant deflection doesn't help the thread. If your point is that SF are no better than other trough sniffing politicians I agree. When there is a system to be taken advantage of for their benefit they bleed it dry. Second highest expenses in the Dail, claiming hundreds of thousands in expenses from Westmisnster even though many refuse to that their seats in that parliament. Misusing expenses and racking up huge costs for campaigning. Using the referendum to increase the profile of their candidates (they were one of if not the only party to slap faces of local Shinners on the posters).

    So they are no different. They will bring no new politics. They are as power hungry and as money hungry as any politician. So this may just be an example that's typical of other parties activities. 'They are all at it'. I hope you arent using that line selectively and remember it when SFers on here try and claim some higher ethical and political standards in office.

    And while I wouldn't doubt other TDs are abusing the systems of expenses, there is a difference in the standard of evidence between Doherty admitting he used the surplus to hire staff and others returning low sums to the Oireactas. If you want to make a substantive point about someone else start a new thread.

    You can summarise your argument with a 'SF, typical trough sniffing politicians'


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    #108
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    More abuse of expenses and excuseology from the left

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-one-knows-the-rules-in-tds-expenses-farce-3155604.html

    Of course the Shinners here would see nothing wrong with that because they haven't broken any rules.


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    #109
    Hannibal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭Hannibal


    Laminations wrote: »
    More abuse of expenses and excuseology from the left

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-one-knows-the-rules-in-tds-expenses-farce-3155604.html

    Of course the Shinners here would see nothing wrong with that because they haven't broken any rules.
    What has this article got to do with Sinn Fein??

    the only relevence to SF is that ex-SF member Thomas Pringle didn't claim travel expenses.


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    #110
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    I think those jumping on the SF or left bashing bandwagon might want to wait until this one plays out and we see how 'all' travel expenses are used. :D


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    #111
    bonzos
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭bonzos


    I regularly meet our local junior minister in the leisure centre have a swim.....meanwhile his drive sit outside in his merc reading the paper. Good the see reform is working.:rolleyes:


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    #112
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Dotsey wrote: »
    What has this article got to do with Sinn Fein??

    the only relevence to SF is that ex-SF member Thomas Pringle didn't claim travel expenses.

    Well it's clearly a case of misuse of expenses but as of yet no determination of whether rules were broken.

    So I'm wondering if those that defended Dohertys misuse of expenses will defend these guys... you're already trying to claim credit that Pringles didn't do it - but if none of this is 'wrong' then Pringles and Boyd-Barrett should claim this mileage right?

    And the other connection is these guys are left bastions of standards in politics


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    #113
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I think those jumping on the SF or left bashing bandwagon might want to wait until this one plays out and we see how 'all' travel expenses are used. :D

    Eh because you think I'll defend some party? Like I said your argument that SF are no better than any greedy politician is no great comment on SF


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    #114
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Laminations wrote: »
    Eh because you think I'll defend some party? Like I said your argument that SF are no better than any greedy politician is no great comment on SF

    I think you'll find my argument is that the 'system' (which is obviously flawed and confusing in the extreme) has to change.


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    #115
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, it's not here nor there. He didn't breach any rules, and as such has not done anything wrong. No matter way you spin it, these are the facts.

    I think you'll probably agree dlofnep, that not breaking the notoriously lax rules that pertain in the Oireachtais for members' expenses, does not necessarily equate to not doing anything wrong. I had thought that, after all their talk about being a new force in politics, SF in particular would have understood that. That line of defence is rather too reminiscent of the FF way of doing things.
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Should I mention the 9 years in the 1990's when FG were paying party activists in cash 'under the table' payments?
    Or does that not matter.

    It doesn't matter in relation to this situation. It's too be condemned alright, but it's not relevant here.
    gerryo777 wrote: »

    Every politician has their nose stuck deep in the trough, but all we get on here are SF bashing threads.

    I think you should remove the blinkers. If you do even a cursory search on this forum, you'll find threads condemning and criticising politicians of all hues and colours for their conduct. It's about time SF supporters stopped playing the woe is me victimhood card.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I think those jumping on the SF or left bashing bandwagon might want to wait until this one plays out and we see how 'all' travel expenses are used. :D

    We should? So if we see something that we thing is wrong, we should refrain from criticising it because others might also be doing wrong? I don't know about you, or the average SF supporter, but I condemn wrongdoing when I see it. But then, I'm not a partisan supporter of one particular party whose immediate reflex is always to defend that party.

    Plus ça change...


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    #116
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Einhard wrote: »



    We should? So if we see something that we thing is wrong, we should refrain from criticising it because others might also be doing wrong? I don't know about you, or the average SF supporter, but I condemn wrongdoing when I see it. But then, I'm not a partisan supporter of one particular party whose immediate reflex is always to defend that party.

    Plus ça change...

    Laminations tried that line too, I refer the honourable member to post #32. I am quite clear on my opinion about misuse of taxpayers money.

    The title of the thread is also relevant to my suggestion that those jumping on a particular 'bandwagon' might want to wait.


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    #117
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Laminations tried that line too, I refer the honourable member to post #32. I am quite clear on my opinion about misuse of taxpayers money.

    The title of the thread is also relevant to my suggestion that those jumping on a particular 'bandwagon' might want to wait.

    My post wasn't so much about Doherty or this situation regarding his use of public funds, but rather with the stance of SF supporters on this issue, which I think is rather more flippant and dismissive than it would be were a FF or FG member involved. Take dlofnep's statement that because no rules were broken, then no wrong was committed, or jerry's constant attempts to drag up the misdeeds of other parties, as if the sharing of wrongdoing was somehow the absolution of wrongdoing.

    In that vein, your post seemed to suggest that, since others are more than likely up to the same thing, then it's not an issue. I'd disagree with that, and condemn all such actions. But, as I stated, I'm not a supporter of any party, so I don't feel the need to don partisan blinkers every time a political issue arises.

    Also: are the rules giverning these issues really that complex? That seems like a cop-out to me, and were John O' Donoghue to have claimed that in mitigation he'd have been laughed out of it. I note that Joe O' Higgins claimed much the same regarding his own misuse of funds, yet Richard Boyd Barrett simply checked with the relevant body and was told in no uncertain terms what the rules were. I don't buy this notion that our would-be leaders can't figure out some terms and conditions. And if they can't do that, they're certainly in no fit state to actually run the state.


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    #118
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    so dlofnep, were the lefties right in this case because they haven't been found to break any rules?


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    #119
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Einhard wrote: »

    In that vein, your post seemed to suggest that, since others are more than likely up to the same thing, then it's not an issue.
    No it didn't. What my post suggested was that those who set up this thread as a SF bashing thread (see thread title) might want to wait until this expenses thing plays out. It is already engulfing other parties and members of Dail Eireann, so the thread title is no longer relevant or accurate. It should be a thread about the 'system' in general.


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    #120
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    No it didn't. What my post suggested was that those who set up this thread as a SF bashing thread (see thread title) might want to wait until this expenses thing plays out. It is already engulfing other parties and members of Dail Eireann, so the thread title is no longer relevant or accurate. It should be a thread about the 'system' in general.

    Well it was started moreso to dispel the myth that SF stands for higher standards. That and it was a SF TD in the media reports.

    I want to disarm the Shinners of their 'SF for change' campaigning. You know, the type of drivel they were saying with their 6 reasons to vote SF in the last election
    5. Sinn Féin stands up for ordinary people. Over the last year it is our party, which confronted this government and demanded higher standards. For us, actions speak louder than words. Sinn Féin was the only party to oppose the Lisbon Treaty, pointing out the dangers for our sovereignty. Sinn Féin forced the government to hold the Donegal SW by-election, exposed the Taoiseach’s contacts with leading people in Anglo, is the only party not to sign up to the Fianna Fáil / Green Party / Fine Gael / Labour consensus for cuts and instead put forward a real alternative for economic recovery. Sinn Féin TDs only take home the average industrial wage.


    6. Sinn Féin will change politics and put an end to cronyism. Reform must start with the Dáil. That means cutting TD’s wages and expenses. It means changing how the Dáil business is done so the Government can be held to account. We would abolish the Seanad in its current form


    SPOOFERS. And without this angle they have to fall back on their brand of republicanism, economics and opposition to cutting anything and everything.


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    #121
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    Laminations wrote: »
    SPOOFERS. And without this angle they have to fall back on their brand of republicanism, economics and opposition to cutting anything and everything.

    Why wouldn't SF implement wage cuts for all dáil members? They already take way less than other TDs so its no skin off their nose.


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