Sinn Fein misuse expenses

thecommietommy · 30-06-2012 12:54pm

Laminations wrote: »

I don't care if he drove his car up every botharin in Ireland. He misused funds. He claimed so much in travel expenses and used the rest to employ staff. Just because he is now producing evidence of mileage that would have eaten up all his expenses doesn't mean he was right in what he did. He should have used his travel and accommodation expenses to claim for that mileage.

It's like a person claiming 1000e for the bike to work scheme, using that money for some other purpose and then when caught out saying 'oh well I bought a bike with my own money and it was more than the allowance'

It's misuse of expenses and just because it's not against any rules doesn't mean it is right.

No.Apologies.Here

" I don't care " - just about sums it up Laminations. Still isn't it great that we have someone like Enda defering his €100k pension lump-sum until he leaves politics ........

http://www.thejournal.ie/kenny-says-he-will-defer-e100k-pension-lump-sum-until-he-leaves-politics-87736-Feb2011/

gerryo777 · 30-06-2012 12:58pm

thecommietommy wrote: »

" I don't care " - just about sums it up Laminations. Still isn't it great that we have someone like Enda defering his €100k pension lump-sum until he leaves politics ........

http://www.thejournal.ie/kenny-says-he-will-defer-e100k-pension-lump-sum-until-he-leaves-politics-87736-Feb2011/

You couldn't make it up, could you?

Geldolf was right, Banana Republic!

plasmaguy · 30-06-2012 2:46pm

I don't think any particular political party has covered themselves in glory in recent years and I include Fine Gael in that.

They have all worked the system ruthlessly.

30-06-2012 8:07pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

I don't think any particular political party has covered themselves in glory in recent years and I include Fine Gael in that.

They have all worked the system ruthlessly.

....so Sinn Fein should continue their run of dodgy activities with taxpayer euros?

Should we get Michael Healy Rae back up to work the phones? Should we get Bertie back as minister for finance, because "ah sure, they all did it"?

I'm not quite sure what point the SFers in this thread are trying to make. Are we to assume that these dodgy activities are to continue unabated because there is some sort of implied 'get out of jail free' card applicable to Sinn Fein every time they misuse public moneys?

gerryo777 · 30-06-2012 8:15pm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

....so Sinn Fein should continue their run of dodgy activities with taxpayer euros?

Should we get Michael Healy Rae back up to work the phones? Should we get Bertie back as minister for finance, because "ah sure, they all did it"?

I'm not quite sure what point the SFers in this thread are trying to make. Are we to assume that these dodgy activities are to continue unabated because there is some sort of implied 'get out of jail free' card applicable to Sinn Fein every time they misuse public moneys?

The point is that the whole expenses system needs to be changed to a vouched/verified system.

Every politician has their nose stuck deep in the trough, but all we get on here are SF bashing threads.

As I've said already, does it not sound even more dodgy that 5 ministers in the current government were able to use their expenses so accurately that they could return sums of just €10 - €40?

Laminations · 30-06-2012 9:08pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

The point is that the whole expenses system needs to be changed to a vouched/verified system.

Every politician has their nose stuck deep in the trough, but all we get on here are SF bashing threads.

As I've said already, does it not sound even more dodgy that 5 ministers in the current government were able to use their expenses so accurately that they could return sums of just €10 - €40?

Look gerryo, the constant deflection doesn't help the thread. If your point is that SF are no better than other trough sniffing politicians I agree. When there is a system to be taken advantage of for their benefit they bleed it dry. Second highest expenses in the Dail, claiming hundreds of thousands in expenses from Westmisnster even though many refuse to that their seats in that parliament. Misusing expenses and racking up huge costs for campaigning. Using the referendum to increase the profile of their candidates (they were one of if not the only party to slap faces of local Shinners on the posters).

So they are no different. They will bring no new politics. They are as power hungry and as money hungry as any politician. So this may just be an example that's typical of other parties activities. 'They are all at it'. I hope you arent using that line selectively and remember it when SFers on here try and claim some higher ethical and political standards in office.

And while I wouldn't doubt other TDs are abusing the systems of expenses, there is a difference in the standard of evidence between Doherty admitting he used the surplus to hire staff and others returning low sums to the Oireactas. If you want to make a substantive point about someone else start a new thread.

You can summarise your argument with a 'SF, typical trough sniffing politicians'

Laminations · 03-07-2012 11:39am

More abuse of expenses and excuseology from the left

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-one-knows-the-rules-in-tds-expenses-farce-3155604.html

Of course the Shinners here would see nothing wrong with that because they haven't broken any rules.

Hannibal · 03-07-2012 11:46am

Laminations wrote: »

More abuse of expenses and excuseology from the left

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-one-knows-the-rules-in-tds-expenses-farce-3155604.html

Of course the Shinners here would see nothing wrong with that because they haven't broken any rules.

What has this article got to do with Sinn Fein??

the only relevence to SF is that ex-SF member Thomas Pringle didn't claim travel expenses.

Happyman42 · 03-07-2012 11:54am

I think those jumping on the SF or left bashing bandwagon might want to wait until this one plays out and we see how 'all' travel expenses are used.

bonzos · 03-07-2012 12:03pm

I regularly meet our local junior minister in the leisure centre have a swim.....meanwhile his drive sit outside in his merc reading the paper. Good the see reform is working.:rolleyes:

Laminations · 03-07-2012 12:06pm

Dotsey wrote: »

What has this article got to do with Sinn Fein??

the only relevence to SF is that ex-SF member Thomas Pringle didn't claim travel expenses.

Well it's clearly a case of misuse of expenses but as of yet no determination of whether rules were broken.

So I'm wondering if those that defended Dohertys misuse of expenses will defend these guys... you're already trying to claim credit that Pringles didn't do it - but if none of this is 'wrong' then Pringles and Boyd-Barrett should claim this mileage right?

And the other connection is these guys are left bastions of standards in politics

Laminations · 03-07-2012 12:07pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think those jumping on the SF or left bashing bandwagon might want to wait until this one plays out and we see how 'all' travel expenses are used.

Eh because you think I'll defend some party? Like I said your argument that SF are no better than any greedy politician is no great comment on SF

Happyman42 · 03-07-2012 12:09pm

Laminations wrote: »

Eh because you think I'll defend some party? Like I said your argument that SF are no better than any greedy politician is no great comment on SF

I think you'll find my argument is that the 'system' (which is obviously flawed and confusing in the extreme) has to change.

Einhard · 03-07-2012 12:11pm

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it's not here nor there. He didn't breach any rules, and as such has not done anything wrong. No matter way you spin it, these are the facts.

I think you'll probably agree dlofnep, that not breaking the notoriously lax rules that pertain in the Oireachtais for members' expenses, does not necessarily equate to not doing anything wrong. I had thought that, after all their talk about being a new force in politics, SF in particular would have understood that. That line of defence is rather too reminiscent of the FF way of doing things.

gerryo777 wrote: »

Should I mention the 9 years in the 1990's when FG were paying party activists in cash 'under the table' payments?
Or does that not matter.

It doesn't matter in relation to this situation. It's too be condemned alright, but it's not relevant here.

gerryo777 wrote: »

Every politician has their nose stuck deep in the trough, but all we get on here are SF bashing threads.

I think you should remove the blinkers. If you do even a cursory search on this forum, you'll find threads condemning and criticising politicians of all hues and colours for their conduct. It's about time SF supporters stopped playing the woe is me victimhood card.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think those jumping on the SF or left bashing bandwagon might want to wait until this one plays out and we see how 'all' travel expenses are used.

We should? So if we see something that we thing is wrong, we should refrain from criticising it because others might also be doing wrong? I don't know about you, or the average SF supporter, but I condemn wrongdoing when I see it. But then, I'm not a partisan supporter of one particular party whose immediate reflex is always to defend that party.

Plus ça change...

Happyman42 · 03-07-2012 12:23pm

Einhard wrote: »

We should? So if we see something that we thing is wrong, we should refrain from criticising it because others might also be doing wrong? I don't know about you, or the average SF supporter, but I condemn wrongdoing when I see it. But then, I'm not a partisan supporter of one particular party whose immediate reflex is always to defend that party.

Plus ça change...

Laminations tried that line too, I refer the honourable member to post #32. I am quite clear on my opinion about misuse of taxpayers money.

The title of the thread is also relevant to my suggestion that those jumping on a particular 'bandwagon' might want to wait.

Einhard · 03-07-2012 2:06pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Laminations tried that line too, I refer the honourable member to post #32. I am quite clear on my opinion about misuse of taxpayers money.

The title of the thread is also relevant to my suggestion that those jumping on a particular 'bandwagon' might want to wait.

My post wasn't so much about Doherty or this situation regarding his use of public funds, but rather with the stance of SF supporters on this issue, which I think is rather more flippant and dismissive than it would be were a FF or FG member involved. Take dlofnep's statement that because no rules were broken, then no wrong was committed, or jerry's constant attempts to drag up the misdeeds of other parties, as if the sharing of wrongdoing was somehow the absolution of wrongdoing.

In that vein, your post seemed to suggest that, since others are more than likely up to the same thing, then it's not an issue. I'd disagree with that, and condemn all such actions. But, as I stated, I'm not a supporter of any party, so I don't feel the need to don partisan blinkers every time a political issue arises.

Also: are the rules giverning these issues really that complex? That seems like a cop-out to me, and were John O' Donoghue to have claimed that in mitigation he'd have been laughed out of it. I note that Joe O' Higgins claimed much the same regarding his own misuse of funds, yet Richard Boyd Barrett simply checked with the relevant body and was told in no uncertain terms what the rules were. I don't buy this notion that our would-be leaders can't figure out some terms and conditions. And if they can't do that, they're certainly in no fit state to actually run the state.

Laminations · 03-07-2012 2:12pm

so dlofnep, were the lefties right in this case because they haven't been found to break any rules?

Happyman42 · 03-07-2012 2:14pm

Einhard wrote: »

In that vein, your post seemed to suggest that, since others are more than likely up to the same thing, then it's not an issue.

No it didn't. What my post suggested was that those who set up this thread as a SF bashing thread (see thread title) might want to wait until this expenses thing plays out. It is already engulfing other parties and members of Dail Eireann, so the thread title is no longer relevant or accurate. It should be a thread about the 'system' in general.

Laminations · 03-07-2012 2:28pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

No it didn't. What my post suggested was that those who set up this thread as a SF bashing thread (see thread title) might want to wait until this expenses thing plays out. It is already engulfing other parties and members of Dail Eireann, so the thread title is no longer relevant or accurate. It should be a thread about the 'system' in general.

Well it was started moreso to dispel the myth that SF stands for higher standards. That and it was a SF TD in the media reports.

I want to disarm the Shinners of their 'SF for change' campaigning. You know, the type of drivel they were saying with their 6 reasons to vote SF in the last election

5. Sinn Féin stands up for ordinary people. Over the last year it is our party, which confronted this government and demanded higher standards. For us, actions speak louder than words. Sinn Féin was the only party to oppose the Lisbon Treaty, pointing out the dangers for our sovereignty. Sinn Féin forced the government to hold the Donegal SW by-election, exposed the Taoiseach’s contacts with leading people in Anglo, is the only party not to sign up to the Fianna Fáil / Green Party / Fine Gael / Labour consensus for cuts and instead put forward a real alternative for economic recovery. Sinn Féin TDs only take home the average industrial wage.

6. Sinn Féin will change politics and put an end to cronyism. Reform must start with the Dáil. That means cutting TD’s wages and expenses. It means changing how the Dáil business is done so the Government can be held to account. We would abolish the Seanad in its current form

SPOOFERS. And without this angle they have to fall back on their brand of republicanism, economics and opposition to cutting anything and everything.

fasttalkerchat · 03-07-2012 2:51pm

Laminations wrote: »

SPOOFERS. And without this angle they have to fall back on their brand of republicanism, economics and opposition to cutting anything and everything.

Why wouldn't SF implement wage cuts for all dáil members? They already take way less than other TDs so its no skin off their nose.

Laminations · 03-07-2012 2:56pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Why wouldn't SF implement wage cuts for all dáil members? They already take way less than other TDs so its no skin off their nose.

For us, actions speak louder than words. Reform must start with the Dáil. That means cutting TD’s wages and expenses

So while in a position to act on expenses, they draw the second highest amount and misuse expenses and rack up huge printing costs to promote themselves...

And then Doherty says there should be reform

Yes, actions speak louder than words.

And currently, a SF TD doesn't cost the state any less in wages than any other TD - they just divert anything above the AIW to the party machine

fasttalkerchat · 03-07-2012 2:58pm

Laminations wrote: »

And then Doherty says there should be reform

And he's right. Strange that the other parties (who use less expenses) don't agree.

Laminations · 03-07-2012 3:04pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

And he's right. Strange that the other parties (who use less expenses) don't agree.

You are missing the point. ACTIONS speak louder than words.

Happyman42 · 03-07-2012 3:05pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

And he's right. Strange that the other parties (who use less expenses) don't agree.

Which is the point, the 'system' is designed to not be transperant. It is obviously so confusing that anybody can adopt whatever stance they wish, e.g. Joe Higgins can rationalise his use of 'expenses' and RBB can legitimise his actions in another way.
I support those who want a fully vouched system and who will stand up and call for it.....what is your stance on that Lamintations, whose call do you support in your non-partisan way?

Laminations · 03-07-2012 3:18pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Which is the point, the 'system' is designed to not be transperant. It is obviously so confusing that anybody can adopt whatever stance they wish, e.g. Joe Higgins can rationalise his use of 'expenses' and RBB can legitimise his actions in another way.

It is not so confusing that one might ever reasonably assume that TAA (travel and accommodation) could be used to hire staff. They may be able to rationalise their actions with regard to the system but shouldn't be so easily able to rationalise them with the electorate. We shouldn't stand for 'Oh I though I was allowed print millions of copies?', or 'Oh I used my TAA expenses to hire staff, is that not what its for?', or 'I was obliged to do xyz, so I paid for it out of travel expenses without bothering to check when it should have come from the party account'.

I support those who want a fully vouched system and who will stand up and call for it.....what is your stance on that Lamintations, whose call do you support in your non-partisan way?

No you condemn the system but not those abusing it.

I doubt the sincerity of Dohertys call, seeing as he had the chance to not abuse the imperfect system and he chose to abuse it. But yes, I support a fully vouched system of expenses and support the scrapping of many expenses and perks that politicians get. I also support the reform of the code of conduct to make it clear and concise with meaningful consequences for those who break what should be far more stringent ruies. SIPO need more teeth and there should be a mechanism for removing a TD from the Dail and stopping pensions.

Happyman42 · 03-07-2012 3:28pm

Laminations wrote: »

No you condemn the system but not those abusing it.

I don't condemm, we have had this already. I seek change by supporting those who say they also want change and who do something about it.
If they welch on that then I will find somebody else to support.

Einhard · 03-07-2012 3:41pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

No it didn't. What my post suggested was that those who set up this thread as a SF bashing thread (see thread title) might want to wait until this expenses thing plays out. It is already engulfing other parties and members of Dail Eireann, so the thread title is no longer relevant or accurate. It should be a thread about the 'system' in general.

I think this is a very strange attitude to take. I believe that where wrongdoing is perceived in an elected representative, then that is open for comment at that time, and doesn't need to depend on further enquiries to estabish whether anyone else was doing it. Since when has cu;pabilty become a group thing?

I imagine, for example, that at the height of the Ivor Callely scandal a couple of years ago, you weren't on here calling for everyone to keep their powder dry until there had been a full investigation.

I didn't start this thread, but from what I understand, when the allegations re Doherty surfaced, they weren't accompandied by allegations against anyone else. To suggest that people should refrain from commenting until such a time as such allegations do arise is fankly nonsensical. We'd never be able to discuss political wrongdoing if that were the case, because we'd always have someone popping up with your strange line of argument.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Which is the point, the 'system' is designed to not be transperant. It is obviously so confusing that anybody can adopt whatever stance they wish, e.g. Joe Higgins can rationalise his use of 'expenses' and RBB can legitimise his actions in another way.
I support those who want a fully vouched system and who will stand up and call for it.....what is your stance on that Lamintations, whose call do you support in your non-partisan way?

Is the system so opaque? Richard Boyd Barrett seemed well able to get to grips with it. Or is the supposed complexity of the system being used as a cover by politicians and their supporters?

Again, I seriously doubt that, were this to involve a FF TD, you'd be discussing the lack of transparency in the system.

Don't get my wrong- I'm not condemning or criticising Doherty. That's not the point of my posts. Rather, I'm criticising the way that party political partisanship works in this country, and the lack of any real independence or objectivity shown by party supporters, includng those who post in support of Sinn Fein on these boards.

Laminations · 03-07-2012 3:49pm

Einhard wrote: »

Is the system so opaque? Richard Boyd Barrett seemed well able to get to grips with it. Or is the supposed complexity of the system being used as a cover by politicians and their supporters?

Again, I seriously doubt that, were this to involve a FF TD, you'd be discussing the lack of transparency in the system.

Ah now to be fair, remember when John O'Donoghue was getting grilled in the media, remember all those SFers coming to his defense saying

'its the system, he just got confused and overwhelmed by the opaque system'

....no I don't remember that either.

They are two separate points, yes the system is too lax and open to abuse. Yes we should highlight all those abusing the system as the misuses of funds are uncovered. I'm not an investigative journalist so I rely on the media to break these stories, they broke one on Doherty, this thread resulted from that. BUT his behaviour is especially interesting in light of SFs statements on 'higher standards' and 'lower expenses' etc.

Happyman42 · 03-07-2012 4:11pm

Einhard wrote: »

I think this is a very strange attitude to take. I believe that where wrongdoing is perceived in an elected representative, then that is open for comment at that time, and doesn't need to depend on further enquiries to estabish whether anyone else was doing it. Since when has cu;pabilty become a group thing?

I imagine, for example, that at the height of the Ivor Callely scandal a couple of years ago, you weren't on here calling for everyone to keep their powder dry until there had been a full investigation.

I didn't start this thread, but from what I understand, when the allegations re Doherty surfaced, they weren't accompandied by allegations against anyone else. To suggest that people should refrain from commenting until such a time as such allegations do arise is fankly nonsensical. We'd never be able to discuss political wrongdoing if that were the case, because we'd always have someone popping up with your strange line of argument.

You won't find me on any Ivor Callelly thread or the plethora of similar threads. Because they are pointless and time wasting. I prefer to take part inthreads about system change and that discuss who is attempting 'real' change. I came on this thread when I saw it was a blatant attempt to bash SF when the full facts where not known. A thread set up by somebody with an irrational hate/fear of SF as it turned out.

Is the system so opaque? Richard Boyd Barrett seemed well able to get to grips with it. Or is the supposed complexity of the system being used as a cover by politicians and their supporters?

Again, I seriously doubt that, were this to involve a FF TD, you'd be discussing the lack of transparency in the system.

Don't get my wrong- I'm not condemning or criticising Doherty. That's not the point of my posts. Rather, I'm criticising the way that party political partisanship works in this country, and the lack of any real independence or objectivity shown by party supporters, includng those who post in support of Sinn Fein on these boards.

I'm not familiar enough to comment knowledgebly on the opacity of the legislation. But I did raise concerns based on not understanding why he would blatantly break the rules like this. He did after publically issue his accounts which revealed this. That's what make him different to a Calelly or a O'Donoghue imo.

Laminations · 03-07-2012 4:20pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

You won't find me on any Ivor Callelly thread or the plethora of similar threads. Because they are pointless and time wasting. I prefer to take part inthreads about system change and that discuss who is attempting 'real' change. I came on this thread when I saw it was a blatant attempt to bash SF when the full facts where not known.

What actions suggest to you that SF is attempting 'real' change? The actions of O'Snodaigh, of O'Doherty, of the politicians in the north who claim constituency expenses from Westminster for seats they refuse to take, the fact that SF have the second highest expenses here??

If the only action you applaud is that they make their accounts available (transparency) it is a little odd that you then criticise someone for questioning those accounts and the use of TAA expenses. Transparency is meaningless without accountability. Accountability will never happen when people like you refuse to accept that the misuse of funds is wrong.

A thread set up by somebody with an irrational hate/fear of SF as it turned out.

And less of this please

Happyman42 · 03-07-2012 4:46pm

Laminations wrote: »

What actions suggest to you that SF is attempting 'real' change? The actions of O'Snodaigh, of O'Doherty, of the politicians in the north who claim constituency expenses from Westminster for seats they refuse to take, the fact that SF have the second highest expenses here??

If the only action you applaud is that they make their accounts available (transparency) it is a little odd that you then criticise someone for questioning those accounts and the use of TAA expenses. Transparency is meaningless without accountability. Accountability will never happen when people like you refuse to accept that the misuse of funds is wrong.

And less of this please

I see what they do at a local level, what constituents are important to them, they don't just pay lipsevice to the idea of equality and fairness. They seem to actually fight for that. That is where they are reaping the rewards, at a local level.
In the Dail I see a party who will stand up and say and call for they see needs to be done. Rightly or wrongly. I am not a supporter of their economic policies but that doesn't take away from my belief that they are being honest.
I can also see that their leaders (and this is important) dont lead lives that are much different in terms of wealth than those of their constituents.

And pleassssssssssse don't lets go there with your hoary old Westminister nonsense. Not taking their seats because of political ideology and the small matter of an oath of allegiance does not mean that they aren't working hard for their constitiuents, for which they are entitled to be paid.

jonniebgood1 · 03-07-2012 5:05pm

In relation to the Socialist parties use of Dail expenses to travel the country promoting non payment of household tax, what do people who have commented on SF think?

I think they should fund such an exercise themselves. Not doing so damages a campaign that I have followed with interest. Whether they have broke Oireachtais 'rules' is up for question but the moral implications are relevant in a similar way to Doherty's slighthandedness.

Laminations · 03-07-2012 6:00pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

I see what they do at a local level, what constituents are important to them, they don't just pay lipsevice to the idea of equality and fairness. They seem to actually fight for that.

unless of course you are Conotr Murphy and the DRD.

That is where they are reaping the rewards, at a local level.

The proper separation of local and national issues is a reform I'd value more than the expenses. What exactly do SF do at a local level? And what about it makes you think they can run a country?

In the Dail I see a party who will stand up and say and call for they see needs to be done. Rightly or wrongly. I am not a supporter of their economic policies but that doesn't take away from my belief that they are being honest.

You value someone syanding up and honestly saying spmething that is wrong?How do you square off their honesty (which is debatable) with their flawed economic approach?

I can also see that their leaders (and this is important) dont lead lives that are much different in terms of wealth than those of their constituents.

That bit has to be a joke.

And pleassssssssssse don't lets go there with your hoary old Westminister nonsense. Not taking their seats because of political ideology and the small matter of an oath of allegiance does not mean that they aren't working hard for their constitiuents, for which they are entitled to be paid.

It's been reported that they are 'milking' Westminster.

gerryo777 · 03-07-2012 6:31pm

Laminations wrote: »

It's been reported that they are 'milking' Westminster.

Source?

The Waltzing Consumer · 03-07-2012 7:21pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

Source?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2164092/Who-picks-restaurant-bills-Martin.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gerry-adams-claimed-1m-as-mp-but-never-took-seat-2956145.html

one million in expenses and he never sat a day there

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/sinn-fein-under-fire-over-westminster-expense-claims-16175256.html

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/22155

SF even admit it here :rolleyes:

You want any more sources?

gerryo777 · 03-07-2012 7:36pm

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2164092/Who-picks-restaurant-bills-Martin.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gerry-adams-claimed-1m-as-mp-but-never-took-seat-2956145.html

one million in expenses and he never sat a day there

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/sinn-fein-under-fire-over-westminster-expense-claims-16175256.html

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/22155

SF even admit it here :rolleyes:

You want any more sources?

Just asked for a source, don't be a smartarse about it.
Well done though, saved me googling.

BTW, the system is there to be milked.
Every politician from every party does it.
If your so worried about the expenses gravy train why don't you elect a party that will change the system?

Happyman42 · 03-07-2012 8:54pm

Laminations wrote: »

unless of course you are Conotr Murphy and the DRD.

Brilliant! I can see clearly how this debate will proceed. :rolleyes:

The proper separation of local and national issues is a reform I'd value more than the expenses. What exactly do SF do at a local level? And what about it makes you think they can run a country?

Go out and have a look, you might suprise yourself.

You value someone syanding up and honestly saying spmething that is wrong?How do you square off their honesty (which is debatable) with their flawed economic approach?

I debate it with them, honestly.

That bit has to be a joke.

If you know different, enlighten us.

It's been reported that they are 'milking' Westminster.

Have they been charged with claiming illegal funds? If so please point it out.

K-9 · 03-07-2012 11:16pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

Just asked for a source, don't be a smartarse about it.
Well done though, saved me googling.

BTW, the system is there to be milked.
Every politician from every party does it.
If your so worried about the expenses gravy train why don't you elect a party that will change the system?

On that note the thread is just going to go round in circles, plus Doherty wasn't found of wrong doing.

Sinn Fein misuse expenses

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