Better equipment for the Gardai

metman · 30-12-2007 1:48am

the locust wrote: »

Better cars and better drivers!

Dont get me wrong the car course the official drivers are put through is very good.

But i'd guess more drivers are on Chiefs permission to drive and its another cutting of corners, because, bar doing passing their drivers test, i dont believe they've had much else driver training! Which is outrageous!

I'd call for better drivers. And agree with the arguements above for 2.0L cars especially in the countryside, and the outskirts of Dublin.

The inner city doesn't need 2.0 litre cars, but rather turbo cars with good suspension. I was in an Opel Vectra 1.9L CDTI and (although it was close to being a 2 litre) it was an absolute rocket in acceleration compared to the ford 1.4...

On my OCU you are required to drive as a basic police driver for 6 months before you can apply for an IRV (incident response vehicle) driving course. This used to be a 3 week course but has been cut down to 2 weeks due to the amount of officers requiring driver training. This course teaches basic response driving on blues and twos. On completion of this course you are deemed fit to drive as a response driver. After another 6 months satisfactory driving you are eligible to apply for an Area Car course. This lengthier course is an advanced driving course that teaches advanced driving skills as well as pursuit management skills.

Here we use BMW 5 series and Vauxhall Vectras as Area Cars, though we're scrapping the Vectras as they're rubbish in comparison to the BMs.

the locust · 30-12-2007 10:52am

That sounds like a much better setup - you cant argue with BMW's

TheNog · 30-12-2007 4:27pm

In our station we used to have a vectra but many they didnt feel safe driving it at speed. I have seen many vectras at different stations. It begs the question:

Who approves these cars?

How are they tested?

We have a mondeo diesel which is a good car but the diesel lacks the revs on take off. A petrol car would be alot better

the locust · 30-12-2007 11:37pm

Found this on Wikipedia - 'Garda Siochana'

"...Garda patrol cars are usually identical to civilian vehicles however, higher performance cars are often bought, such as the Ford Mondeo 2.5 V6. Other models being bought in recent years include Saab 9-3, the Volvo S40 and the Renault Laguna II. High levels of collision protection are one of the reasons that led to the force to acquire vehicles such as the Saab 9-3, partly due to an increase in so called 'ramming' incidents involving Joyriders.

Undercover cars recently acquired by the Department of Justice for the Gardaí include: Subaru Forester 2.5XT, Ford Mondeo, Toyota Camry 2.2, Peugeot 407 and the new Opel Vectra.[citation needed] Other such Garda cars being supposedly introduced are the Skoda Octavia vRS[citation needed], and Opel Astra OPC[citation needed].

The motorway patrol division of the Traffic Corps owns a Mitsubishi Evo, a Subaru Impreza STi and has agreed to purchase three BMW M5[citation needed] to patrol the M1, M4, M7 & M50 motorways. Several models of offroad vehicle are also operated, including the Trooper, Jeep Cherokee and Nissan Navara. The traffic corps have also recently purchased new BMW 5 series for everyday use.

The Gardaí are also involved in the operation of cars transporting members of Government, Including the Mercedes S Class, E Class and Volvo S80."

I spotted/moved out of the way for a silver Toyota T-Sport last week with blue lights and sirens going. They are pretty much a chopped down compact lexus. I was quite surprised as i had no idea they had those.

Sully · 31-12-2007 3:45am

Mutz wrote: »

Durable and simple siren and light control (seriously - some of the panels are rediculous! The new ones are fairly good but some old ones are still around)

Were the old panels simply not a switch for the lights and a switch for the siren? Old fashioned. The new one seems to be a digital panel with various options?

Built in Radio Panel (not attached somewhere down by your leg or under the handbreak!)

Completely agree.

Sufficient Emergency Lighting (extra lights on the front grille, front and rear quarter panels - you can't have too many lights for some people!)

Seems most squad cars are coming with a lot of extra lights on the grill and sides. Unmarked and marked units.

Onboard Computer for doing person (including photo's) and registration checks (this would increase productivity for patrols and reduce workload and dependency on the station or controller and also reduce radio chatter)

Not going to happen. At least, not with this government!

Mobile Phone (Extremely important for communications - in fact invaluable - have cradle included instead of signing phones out on each shift and having the phones loose in the car and then loosing them)

They should pull in like everyone else, or have it on loudspeaker. There a hazzard on the road when on the phone. A new radio system should make this request pointless tho.

Soil proof rear seat for prisoners (like what the cops in the US have and put a cage to seperate the prisoner from front passengers (this would also protect gardai from malicious claims and will alllow violent prisoners to calm down while in transit to garda stations)

Most violent people are escorted in the van, which has this. The cars I thought were for minor arrests? But, I do agree - need a bigger car though.

On Board camera front and rear to protect Gardai from bull**** complaints

They have this in some question rooms in stations, but I cant see it being put in the cars.

ntroduce driving courses while on training on phase 3. Whats the problem with introducing this? Its such a big problem - everyone should be able to drive and use a pushbike.

Agreed.

Schduled fitness tests. As the job is extremely demanding, this should be introduced. Allowances should be introduced as an incentive.

Agreed.

> Email please, please, please. Eliminate paper!

Email isnt as secure, and can be easier to intercept. I agree, but the technology isnt really out there.

Make PULSE Web Based - its so slow as it has to load onto the pc each time from the central location.

Not a bad idea, but it would need to run on a decent server if its going to get heavy usage.

Individually issued radios to members (sometimes been forced to go without! Imagine getting into a hairy situation in that case)

Just a matter of lack of funding really.

Every prisoner gets photographed and fingerprinted. It would help in solving burglaries/ stolen cars/ criminal damage etc. these can then be fed directly into a database from the station! The current system is a nighmare where the above need to be submitted seperately to HQ

Isnt this being considered, but human rights activists are saying its a breach of the constution?

Move away from the traditional station. Office buildings are far more suited. Most stations are overcapacity. No Guard has their own desk. Each Officer should have their own desk and pc to work from.

Why would every officer need a desk?

Not in favour of firearms, however, the asp and spray seem to work very well. Its a really big deal when a baton is used, so i think we're still a long way away from guns - thank the gods!

Agreed, but think we need a better policing system so we have armed units on the road and available for backup.

TheNog · 01-01-2008 11:10am

In the country violent prisoners are put in the back of a patrol car where no van is available. In our town we have no van.

Emergency lights: Would agree with more lights which are more visible to traffic in front and also a better siren such as what the US and UK have when they approach slower traffic. I find that lots of traffic do not see or hear us when they are right in front of us.

On board PCs: is necessary but I don't think will happen. At the mo PULSE is slower than my dead grandmother and as almost as user friendly as your usual public incident offender

On board camera: whatever happened to the vascar system? I heard so much about it but never saw it?

Fitness: Always thought that personal fitness should be brought into it. Personally I don't have any type of fitness except for a bad one but it is a great idea. Maybe have the most senior lads exempt from it for a few years but the younger ones must follow guidelines.

Radios: Digital radios when they are launched should be issued personally to all members. Then the members themselves can account for all radios and their mishaps.

Desks: No need to have a desk for each member, just 1 pc for every 3 members and a printer for the unit to access when doing files.

Email: is the way forward for handyness sake and for the trees sake. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE TREES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DNA & fingerprints: fingerprints and photographs should be taken as a matter of course in all crimes no matter what. DNA should be taken for crimes such as criminal damage, UT and upwards.

Traditional stations: No more stations converted from houses, please. Stations should be more user friendly to the user than user friendly to the government bank balance.

All in all I feel that everyone feels that more money could be spent on the Gardai and our equipment but why is there not a path for us to suggest these changes or additions? It may be a case of splurging more money than ever in say 3 yrs to implement these changes but despite the maintenance, they can last a lifetime or at least a few years and improve our service greatly to the public.

The most questions I would like answered are these:

What dept. approves the cars?

What critirea are the cars approved?

What happened to the VASCAR system and the development from that system?

And how the hell do you split the quotes from a post like Sully has done above?

These are the Q's I want answered.

source · 01-01-2008 1:26pm

TheNog wrote: »

The most questions I would like answered are these:

TheNog wrote: »

What dept. approves the cars?

Finance i would assume

TheNog wrote: »

What critirea are the cars approved?

I think the only criteria on finances mind is which is cheaper

TheNog wrote: »

What happened to the VASCAR system and the development from that system?

haven't got a clue

TheNog wrote: »

And how the hell do you split the quotes from a post like Sully has done above?

and i think you need to press the multi quote button beside the quote button, either that or use the html tags.

TheNog wrote: »

These are the Q's I want answered.

and answered they have been, at least to the best of my ability

timmywex · 01-01-2008 2:18pm

id reckon the cameras in the cars idea is very realistic, ambulances have hadd them for a number of years, both in the cabin in the back and out the front of it

the locust · 01-01-2008 6:10pm

I believe its the Dept of Justice that orders all the cars and equipment on reccomendations from the AC at HQ

In the PSNI i know its a few of the Traffic and Close protection guys test and assess cars on a course for speed, handling, offensive defensive evasive driving etc and take reccomendations and reviews from the UK. Then they recommend stuff to the resources Chief Super who recommends it up the channels

Sully · 01-01-2008 7:18pm

TheNog; Its done manually. I just put quote tags around the text I wanted to quote.

([.QUOTE]TEXT TO BE QUOTED![./QUOTE])

Multi-Quote is to quote different posts, and is the button beside the main "Quote button". Its not used to split up one post into segments - thats done manually as described above using BBCode as HTML is disabled.

remmurts · 17-01-2008 1:16am

Ressurecting this old chestnut...

I think 100 mph chases in most garda districts are a major liability. The potential for disaster does not out weigh the potential arrest for most situations. Any Garda who is engaging in high speed chases after joyriders and other minor criminals should be disciplined. It won't be long until some smart lawyer asks the right questions after an official car is involved in an accident whilst in some BS chase and kills/maims some citizens...then it will be firings, big payouts and some new HQ circulars and policy changes.

CARS
I think standarisation is the way to go. Way too many types out there. But you must take into consideration the political inteference. Is the Fleet Manager being made accountable? Does the GRA Equipment Committee have any meaningful input? Do they even have a policy/position? Also consider that these cars need to be maintained locally. Are there trained mechanics available in every Division or will the car need to be brought two counties over to the next nearest main dealer?

What type of car is really needed? What are the more important factors..speed, economy, durabilty, suitabilty for patrol? Again, don't forget the political inteference !!!

As for the car equipment...the current choices of vehicles are not designed for police use. Hence, the haphazard installation methods of various equipment (also some poor accountability of various contractors and Garda techs.)

Again, the right choice of vehicle will allow for standardisation of equipment installation. US patrol cars are normally one of 2 or 3 different types are have ample room for police equipment...but because of the numbers involved it is profitable for after-market manufacturers to develope installation brackets, consoles, etc, for these types....Not much market out there for a radio/siren/computer mount for a Fiat Punto.

DRIVING COURSES
The 2 week course..is it enough? It used to be 4 weeks. Too many Gardai driving on Chiefs, and most of them think it gives them license to drive like an asshole. What are the stats for official accidents for Offical Drivers Vs those on Chief's? Too little accountabilty for drivers...if they had to pay to mistreat the vehicles like some of them do we'd probably see a lot less official vehicles in for damage repair...and for some reason once they start getting drivers pay (is that still around?) they think that means they don't have to clean the car, check any fluids, etc. Where are the Sgts?

RADIOS
Garda comms network is very old and outdated by this time. The DMR Command and Control system was never designed for the application it was pressed into. The Country Divisions comms are being held together with tape !!! It's time for the DOJ and Garda management to get the finger out and make a decision. I think they are still gunshy after the controversy, fiasco and huge cost over-run from the last one. Nobody wants to sign off on it...if it fails...they'll fall.

The biggest enemy to a decent Garda Comms net is the mules themselves. No radio discipline...no concept on how it works...no accountability for the equipment, etc. It's time to update the Templemore syllabus and teach some proper tech comm skills. More equipment is put out of service because of Garda vandalism than ever goes faulty. Why the Sgt's aren't held accountable I'll never know.

They will issue personal radios to each member if a certain cost threshold is met. However, there are several different radio systems in use...the whole country would have to standardize to the same technology/bands, etc...don't cross your fingers.

TECHNOLOGY
Up to recent times the Gardai were terrified of computers. While the criminals moved with the times the poor polis stuck to their guns and got hopelessly outdated. Remember when the GRA looked for more money to operate PULSE terminals? In any private sector company there would've been massive firings...I think there should have been. I'm sure it's improved in the last few years...but there's a long way to go. All forms should be electronic and be printed off when required, therefore reducing the stationery stock. Collators, records, keyholders, warrants, etc, should be all instantly searchable databases.

All prisoners taken into any custody should be photographed and fingerprinted. These records can be stored as a central database and should be searchable from any District. Although this would require legislative change and isn't the fault of the Gardai.

UNIFORMS
I see they have changed them recently and they still look like shyte. That issue nylon duty belt is a joke. The US definitely leads the way with practical police clothing. It doesn't have to be military-style...but...I don't know...when the original goretex patrol jackets came out, many District Officers wouldn't let their members wear them because they "didn't look smart." This attitude is still alive in the upper echelons. They need to look at NYPD...I think they've struck the right balance with police uniforms...prcatical, comfortable, yet smart looking too without be too paramilitary looking.

BUILDINGS/STATIONS
Again, the polis are their own worst enemies...treating the stations like their own personal rubbish bins. But the OPW has a lot to answer for too. A lot of older stations were designed for different times and are quite unsuitable. Modern stations need to be designed with physical security and policing operations in mind.

WEAPONS
I don't know...not every Garda wants to be armed. They took the job in an unarmed force, and some may not want to change that. Carrying a gun is a lot of responsibilty and not to be taken lightly. The novelty soon wears off and it becomes a pain in the arse. Firearms training is pretty poor...but I'm not sure what need there is arming more Gardai...??? Definitley should be reevaluated periodically.

OK...rant off !!! I'd love to hear the opinions of current serving Gardai/PSNI/UK Police on these issues...or any other equipment type grievance you'd like to air.

vasch_ro · 17-01-2008 12:40pm

remmurts wrote: »

Ressurecting this old chestnut...

BUILDINGS/STATIONS
Again, the polis are their own worst enemies...treating the stations like their own personal rubbish bins. But the OPW has a lot to answer for too. A lot of older stations were designed for different times and are quite unsuitable. Modern stations need to be designed with physical security and policing operations in mind.

I'd love to hear the opinions of current serving Gardai/PSNI/UK Police on these issues...or any other equipment type grievance you'd like to air.

Now i think you have hit the nail on the head, the members serving are there on worst enemies never cleaning up after themselves, neglecting to clean patrol cars, check oil, air pressure, leaving uniform scattered around the place, there is nothing worse than coming in a 6.00am to start the day, getting a quick cuppa, and finding a mountain of leftovers and rubbish, soiled plates form the local chinese, grrr drives me mad !!!!! or sitting into a patrol car with empty coke bottles at your feet and crisp bags, i was once in station where the patrol car seized up, why.....no oil in the engine, 8000 euro bill super was not a happy camper, but at least in that station every unit ran the dishwasher before the end of their shift.

I also agree Re. design of stations, in one of my old stations there is no wheel chair access, people regularly take short cuts thru the station yard and prisoners have to be brought in past the Public at the station counter, just imagine with kids there etc its awful.
Re security , twice I had recovered UT's (stolen cars) re-stolen from the back of the station yard at another station iworked at in the DMR South, including my friends sister Saab, who I had been glad to inform that we had safely recovered her car, only when she arrived it was gone , talk about egg on your face!

Personally i think the uniform has come along way, and the way i see at least we get belts now, and they did change the boots, the new ones are far superior.Thats my two cents.

vasch_ro · 17-01-2008 12:44pm

remmurts wrote: »

Ressurecting this old chestnut...

RADIOS

The biggest enemy to a decent Garda Comms net is the mules themselves. No radio discipline...no concept on how it works...no accountability for the equipment, etc. It's time to update the Templemore syllabus and teach some proper tech comm skills. More equipment is put out of service because of Garda vandalism than ever goes faulty. Why the Sgt's aren't held accountable I'll never know.

They will issue personal radios to each member if a certain cost threshold is met. However, there are several different radio systems in use...the whole country would have to standardize to the same technology/bands, etc...don't cross your fingers.

why the members who damage the radio's are not held accountable i will never know, plus the word on the street is that personal issue radio's are on the way, you lose it/damage it , comes out of your pay.

Potential-Monke · 19-01-2008 1:35pm

vasch_ro wrote: »

why the members who damage the radio's are not held accountable i will never know, plus the word on the street is that personal issue radio's are on the way, you lose it/damage it , comes out of your pay.

Aye, they're sayin up in Templemore that the Tetra radios are on nationwide roll-out soon, and that the new probationers might be coming out with them. Then again, i know someone who's installing them and they said the end of this year if lucky... Plus, they are personal issue, which is dead right! Should be the same with everything. I don't think the drivers of the patrol cars are being held accountable for anything that happens to it (not that i've seen anyway).

As for the stations, even the new ones weren't built with a Garda Station in mind. Granted, the station in Cobh is probably one of the best (and newest if i remember correctly), but it's still not extremely practible as a Garda Station (albeit way more practible than others i've been to).

As the rant above said, the politicians behind the funding of AGS are too afraid to go out on a limb and spend some money in the organisation. They need to start treating it as a business and not as a learn-as-you-go project! I don't think anyone (decent and law-abiding) wouldn't mind more money being spent on keeping the law in order effectively.

Saying that, there are still alot, and i mean alot, of absolute plebs coming out of templemore. Gung-ho, up-their-own-arse, "look at me, i'm a Guard". incosiderate, immature and mainly mannerless idiots who let the uniform go to their head! That needs to be sorted first.

Brophers · 21-01-2008 8:27pm

My car is a car capable of making a squad car look like a pushbike,I have drove several squad cars from mondeos to the ford focus and they are all a pile of ****e..they need an elite range of 5 series bmw cars and seated x5 jeeps for motorway traffic control all specially designed for the worst situation possible..not a two year old clapped out mondeo

Smokey Bear · 24-01-2008 1:25am

Hi,
Does any body know what brand led lights the Gardai use? its the blue ones that go on the road and flash .Just trying to source for use as they are a lot better than the tri pod ones the fire Brigade use.

Smokey Bear.

cushtac · 24-01-2008 1:47am

Smokey Bear wrote: »

Hi,
Does any body know what brand led lights the Gardai use? its the blue ones that go on the road and flash .Just trying to source for use as they are a lot better than the tri pod ones the fire Brigade use.

Smokey Bear.

They're Meprolight electro-flares: http://www.meprolight.com/products.asp?id=18

Smokey Bear · 24-01-2008 10:16pm

Hi Cushtac,
Thanks for the quick reply,a lot of help.

Smokey Bear

TheNog · 26-01-2008 12:43am

The Mepro lights are great. The only problem is you really have to prevent traffic driving over them and smashing them to bits.

TheNog · 05-02-2008 1:04pm

Just thinking deployment problems in the Gardai. One particular incident made me think about this recently. I was SO in the station and another district HQ rang me to say 3 fellas in a car had tried to break into a petrol station and were heading our way. Now 3 gardai were in our car and they headed out to try and meet the car but in fairness with the amount of roads leading off the road to us which is something in the region of 7/8 backroads, the likelihood of catching these guys is remote. I have been looking at the American way of doing their job specifically regarding one man, one car. Why don't we have something similar here in Ireland?

In my district we have 4+1 on my unit with three sub districts with 2 and 1 and 1 respectively. With the divisional changes coming on stream soon our district is about to get bigger but we will also have bigger numbers of gardai. To implement the change we would have to update and enforce better procedures and equipment such as for one the Tetra system to ensure clear and uninterrupted broadcast, notifying base of stopping a veh and each member carrying a personnal radio and phone at all times. Also when we have the ARU online it would boost our security even more.

In my view we could better police our district by covering more ground and give better response time for calls. An example would be two calls of a material damage RTA, it seems inefficient to me to have 2 gardai arrive at one rta when only one is needed. For a member looking for assistance it would be only minutes away compared to what we have at the moment it could be several minutes away even up to half an hour. We could would have more stop and search, better traffic monitoring and higher visibility all round.

Regarding safety especially at night, gardai know or at least should have the cop on (no pun intended) to see trouble brewing before it starts. Certain stops should be strictly controlled such as if I wanted to stop a car with 2 ppl in it and they look at a bit dodge then I radio of backup. If they look ok I could do it alone. If there was three in the car then definitely call for back up.

Another plan that could work. Setting up a call centre for each county similar to command and control in Dublin. All calls, emergency and non emergency, should be routed to this call centre and then given out to each local patrol car and they could also deal with calls from the cars. This would free up time for the SO in the local district station to deal with public at the counter and files. I estimate that 3-4 people manning the control centre would suffice for the county.

Tell me what ye think?

Eru · 05-02-2008 1:11pm

sunnyjim wrote: »

Now that the oulfella is gone, it might be brought in - Fachtna was involved in a lot of new set-ups within the GS, with Admin and the CAB - maybe he's not afraid of change like Conroy was.

Lads, they are all yes men and if one isnt then say hello to a civilian commissioner.

Tetra is not great Im afraid, working in Dublin I have it and its not up to par at all, loses frequency in areas where a normal radio does not.

We need:

1. Proper, practical and funciton based uniform for on duty. My opinion is for combats, polo shirt or even simple lose the tie. Vest we have, some pockets and holders would be nice but I saw a MET guy recently and he looked completely weighed down so the belt should remain. New boots seem fine as well. After that lose the hat, it serves no purpose, gets in the way and lets face it, wastes money that could go to better things. Also lose the high vis and incorporate it into the uniform similar the mountain bike uniform or Policia locale in spain does. Failing that, make it a bloody jacket and not a cover.

2. A better TETRA system nationwide.

3. Bull bars, every car with a STINGER and for the love of god a proper secured rear seat. Cages arent even expensive! Oh and something a little more secure than child locks!

4. No more small engine cars and also vehicles designed for speed, not just in terms of how fast but also good grip and breaking. Focus is a disaster at anything even approaching high speed.

5. Forget Mace, we live in a windy country and its not target specific enough. A lot of US / UK guys said that when using it they frequently get themselves or colleagues. Whats wrong with a small compavt stun gun? Not a tazer but a stun gun. Multiple usage and immediately takes thr fight out of an aggresive prisoner. I also looked into this and using 3 or 4 at the same time does NOT increase the voltage to the prisoner.

You can actually get an ASP thats electrical, the top 5 or 6 inches can be charged and used as a stun gun when the vuttons pressed. Multiple function and solves all our current problems.

6. PULSE that works. The program itself is ok but the IT system its running on is a joke. I neither need nor want email, my paperwork is bad enough as it is.

7. No more part-time stations and all stations to be securely built, not converted bloody houses with no anti-attack security. Even the new bigger stations are wide open to attack via the walls, doors and front counters.

TheNog · 05-02-2008 3:32pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

We need:

1. Proper, practical and funciton based uniform for on duty. My opinion is for combats, polo shirt or even simple lose the tie. Vest we have, some pockets and holders would be nice but I saw a MET guy recently and he looked completely weighed down so the belt should remain. New boots seem fine as well. After that lose the hat, it serves no purpose, gets in the way and lets face it, wastes money that could go to better things. Also lose the high vis and incorporate it into the uniform similar the mountain bike uniform or Policia locale in spain does. Failing that, make it a bloody jacket and not a cover.

Good point. The jackets the UK traffic lads have look good and are practical

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

3. Bull bars, every car with a STINGER and for the love of god a proper secured rear seat. Cages arent even expensive! Oh and something a little more secure than child locks!

Excellent point. With the amount of smashed windows from prisoners would probably pay for the cages in a year or two. Bull bars would be a help for protection but the Human Rights and road safety groups would kick up murder. Stingers are great and we have one in our car but nobody I know is trained on it. Typical

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

4. No more small engine cars and also vehicles designed for speed, not just in terms of how fast but also good grip and breaking. Focus is a disaster at anything even approaching high speed.

Agreed 100%. I have been saying this since I started in the job. Focus should be used for transport, community policing etc and never put into an emergency situation.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

5. Forget Mace, we live in a windy country and its not target specific enough. A lot of US / UK guys said that when using it they frequently get themselves or colleagues. Whats wrong with a small compavt stun gun? Not a tazer but a stun gun. Multiple usage and immediately takes thr fight out of an aggresive prisoner. I also looked into this and using 3 or 4 at the same time does NOT increase the voltage to the prisoner.

Jeez never factored in the wind aspect of it.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

6. PULSE that works. The program itself is ok but the IT system its running on is a joke. I neither need nor want email, my paperwork is bad enough as it is.

PULSE has been working ok for the past week or so but there is room for improvements such as when you click the close button PULSE takes all the way back to the original search screen where it should just bring you back to the last page you viewed.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

7. No more part-time stations and all stations to be securely built, not converted bloody houses with no anti-attack security. Even the new bigger stations are wide open to attack via the walls, doors and front counters.

Blanchardstown is a classic example of this. Large station covering 100,000 population with some really dangerous people and the public counter is open. Having said that the screen we have is intrusive and alot of people don't like it all. Having said that I understand the need for security.

RonMexico · 05-02-2008 4:09pm

Honestly I don't know how you guys do your job. The whole situation is a farce. The local guard here drives around in a Toyota Yaris FFS. A womans car at best. How can he command respect driving around in that piece of crap?

You should all go on strike.

alfie · 05-02-2008 6:19pm

RonMexico wrote: »

You should all go on strike.

We don't have that right. Hence the 'blue flu' a number of years ago.

TheNog · 05-02-2008 7:44pm

RonMexico wrote: »

Honestly I don't know how you guys do your job. The whole situation is a farce. The local guard here drives around in a Toyota Yaris FFS. A womans car at best. How can he command respect driving around in that piece of crap?

You should all go on strike.

Most criminals are caught long after the crime has been committed. It is rare that a crim is caught at or near the scene

metman · 05-02-2008 9:02pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

5. Forget Mace, we live in a windy country and its not target specific enough. A lot of US / UK guys said that when using it they frequently get themselves or colleagues...

CS/Pava works fine in the UK and US. Having been exposed to it a number of times, a couple of times when suspects were sprayed, on not-especially windy nights, exposure is unfortunately an occupational hazard. This hasn't prevented OC becoming a highly useful and effective tool all over the world. To dismiss this piece of PPE on the basis of Ireland being a "windy country" is ridiculous.

Maybe the issue of Tazer/Stun gun should be forgotten due to Ireland being "a bit wet"?

timmywex · 05-02-2008 10:33pm

On a sidenote, someone said they dont want email, this is the kind of thing that is holding everything up, say if someone posts you files but forgets a picture or something, instead of waiting or going to collect them, these can easily be emailed!

Here, the gardai being given a run around, according to the title, 24 cars, i van and a helicopter, dont believe it tbh, think its edited, looks strngly similar at times, and whats the chances of getting that many cars to the one chase, not happening, at them speeds, the joyrider would have more than likely crashed/be intercepted by then if 25 vehicles were able to get to it, the whole of county wexford has just over 25 vehicles nearly! And it wouls have been defo brought to a stop previously imo! Fake but have a look;

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=25Lh6jeNbDQ

Gavin · 07-02-2008 5:59pm

Saw the stuff re torches.

An excellent brand is fenix. High powered led torches, small, light and efficient. Fenix l2d uses two AA batteries.
http://fenix-store.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_55&products_id=195

Good overview of LED torches at
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews_index/reviews_top_picks.htm

Look at the 3 and 5watt led section.

Get Vapextech AA 2700mah rechargable batteries and they'll last.
http://www.component-shop.co.uk/html/aa.html

source · 07-02-2008 7:16pm

This is the current issue torch that everyone gets leaving Templemore, it is very powerful, and i have to say one of the best torches i've ever used, I even bought one of the smaller ones, which has pretty similar power to wear on my belt during the day, to save carrying around the big one all the time.

TheNog · 11-02-2008 11:53pm

foinse wrote: »

This is the current issue torch that everyone gets leaving Templemore, it is very powerful, and i have to say one of the best torches i've ever used, I even bought one of the smaller ones, which has pretty similar power to wear on my belt during the day, to save carrying around the big one all the time.

I find the issue torch, V2 TL- Tactical, is grand for traffic duty or for close up lighting but it lacks the distance. It is also quite light weight which is great but for me it does have a draw back. The pouch is not user friendly and the torch moves around the pouch so it can be difficult to find the ON button. Not very good if you need to turn on the torch in a hurry. I have the smaller torch, V2 Professional, as well and is ideal for traffic duty such as checking discs, driving licences, searching cars etc.

My main torch is the 3-cell Maglite which I love. That torch has gotten me out of more scraps when I was a student. It is heavy, long (almost menacing looking) and has great short and long distance illumination that is until the batteries start to wear out a bit. I am currently sourcing a LED replacement unit for the Maglite which retails at £29 at
http://policeoracle.patrolstore.com/torches-lights-accessoriesupgrades-c-73_76.html

It is also holstered securely and for easy access when needed and can be used as a secondary weapon if my ASP is ever taken from me.

source · 12-02-2008 6:50am

TheNog wrote: »

I find the issue torch, V2 TL- Tactical, is grand for traffic duty or for close up lighting but it lacks the distance. It is also quite light weight which is great but for me it does have a draw back. The pouch is not user friendly and the torch moves around the pouch so it can be difficult to find the ON button. Not very good if you need to turn on the torch in a hurry. I have the smaller torch, V2 Professional, as well and is ideal for traffic duty such as checking discs, driving licences, searching cars etc.

My main torch is the 3-cell Maglite which I love. That torch has gotten me out of more scraps when I was a student. It is heavy, long (almost menacing looking) and has great short and long distance illumination that is until the batteries start to wear out a bit. I am currently sourcing a LED replacement unit for the Maglite which retails at £29 at
http://policeoracle.patrolstore.com/torches-lights-accessoriesupgrades-c-73_76.html

It is also holstered securely and for easy access when needed and can be used as a secondary weapon if my ASP is ever taken from me.

Haven't bothered with the pouch for the LedLenser tbh, I just use the torch holder on the belt, and use the clasp to hold it in place, That pouch that comes with the torch looks like a piece of crap.It's sitting in the bottom of my locker under a pile of stuff lol.

Eru · 19-02-2008 1:41am

alfie wrote: »

We don't have that right. Hence the 'blue flu' a number of years ago.

This bugs me, at the end of the day people werent allowed stike 200 years ago either but they still did. Also, the GRA was established from an illegal meeting which had a few mules fired at the time. I mean, what exactly are the government going to do about it? Sack the entire police force for enacting what is a constitutional right? I dont think so.

metman wrote: »

CS/Pava works fine in the UK and US. Having been exposed to it a number of times, a couple of times when suspects were sprayed, on not-especially windy nights, exposure is unfortunately an occupational hazard. This hasn't prevented OC becoming a highly useful and effective tool all over the world. To dismiss this piece of PPE on the basis of Ireland being a "windy country" is ridiculous.

Maybe the issue of Tazer/Stun gun should be forgotten due to Ireland being "a bit wet"?

So Metman, the fact that you sprayed your colleagues even in decent weather conditionals proves that pepper spray is a fantastic tool? No it doesnt, it proves my point more. Its a spray, it goes in different directions and is not wind resistent. How many times have you stunned a colleague while aiming for a suspect?

Unless of course the MET just dont have decent training;)

I stand by my comments, pepper spray that gets your colleagues you can keep, stun gun with no side effects to myself or my colleagues I want!

metman · 19-02-2008 2:24pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

So Metman, the fact that you sprayed your colleagues even in decent weather conditionals proves that pepper spray is a fantastic tool? No it doesnt, it proves my point more. Its a spray, it goes in different directions and is not wind resistent. How many times have you stunned a colleague while aiming for a suspect?

Unless of course the MET just dont have decent training;)

I stand by my comments, pepper spray that gets your colleagues you can keep, stun gun with no side effects to myself or my colleagues I want!

You evidently misunderstood my post. Officers are mostly affected by CS through interaction with a prisoner, ie restraining, cuffing, placing in a van etc for a period after the subject has been sprayed. This is how I have come into contact with CS operationally, not because I've been sprayed or sprayed someone else. I've never seen a third party affected on account of wind/weather conditions. Oh and Pepper/Pava doesn't cross contaminate, just for your information

You are of course entitled to your opinion as to the usefulness of the kit. However I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

As regards the Met's training for CS, I can't compare it to training given elsewhere. Perhaps you'll find out if we again send trainers to Templemore, when CS is eventually issued there, as was done for ASP baton-trainer training.

cushtac · 19-02-2008 6:39pm

metman wrote: »

Perhaps you'll find out if we again send trainers to Templemore, when CS is eventually issued there, as was done for ASP baton-trainer training.

ASP would not sell the batons without also giving training and rather than fly in instructors from the US they contacted a number of forces in the UK to provide trainers for the GS, the Met was best able to assist. The Met wasn't singled out to provide the training, it was merely taking the place of ASP employees.

sdanseo · 20-02-2008 1:11am

TheNog wrote: »

I find the issue torch, V2 TL- Tactical, is grand for traffic duty or for close up lighting but it lacks the distance. It is also quite light weight which is great but for me it does have a draw back. The pouch is not user friendly and the torch moves around the pouch so it can be difficult to find the ON button. Not very good if you need to turn on the torch in a hurry. I have the smaller torch, V2 Professional, as well and is ideal for traffic duty such as checking discs, driving licences, searching cars etc.

My main torch is the 3-cell Maglite which I love. That torch has gotten me out of more scraps when I was a student. It is heavy, long (almost menacing looking) and has great short and long distance illumination that is until the batteries start to wear out a bit. I am currently sourcing a LED replacement unit for the Maglite which retails at £29 at
http://policeoracle.patrolstore.com/torches-lights-accessoriesupgrades-c-73_76.html

It is also holstered securely and for easy access when needed and can be used as a secondary weapon if my ASP is ever taken from me.

Just watch buying a non-Maglite upgrade. Apparently voids your waranty.

As a prospective Garda (albeit not until I've got some sort of qualification under my belt) I can only hope that equipment etc improves. I don't know how you guys manage currently from what I've heard and I have the greatest of respect for you - I'm surprised to find it hasn't put me off.

TheNog · 20-02-2008 11:40am

sdonn_1 wrote: »

Just watch buying a non-Maglite upgrade. Apparently voids your waranty.

Aye i know. I found a company here in Ireland, www.caulfield.ie , that sell the authentic maglite led replacement unit. Ordered it last week. Should probably ring them and see where the hell it is.

TheNog · 20-02-2008 11:51am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

So Metman, the fact that you sprayed your colleagues even in decent weather conditionals proves that pepper spray is a fantastic tool? No it doesnt, it proves my point more. Its a spray, it goes in different directions and is not wind resistent. How many times have you stunned a colleague while aiming for a suspect?

metman wrote: »

Perhaps you'll find out if we again send trainers to Templemore, when CS is eventually issued there, as was done for ASP baton-trainer training.

Lads I don't like the way ye are heading with this slagging. It is immature and doesn't help progress this thread. We are discussing what the GS have and the need for better equipment and training. Not which force is better.

If neither of ye can exchange thoughts and ideas in a practical and professional manner then stay away.

TheNog

CLADA · 20-02-2008 11:59pm

metman wrote: »

As regards the Met's training for CS, I can't compare it to training given elsewhere. Perhaps you'll find out if we again send trainers to Templemore, when CS is eventually issued there, as was done for ASP baton-trainer training.

CS Spray will not be issued to Gardai anytime in the foreseeable future, the incapacitant spray on issue to certain garda units is Oleresin Capsicum (OC) which has pepper as a natural ingredient.
If a decision is made to issue an incapacitant spray to Public Order Units or beat members, it will be OC.

All Garda ASP instructors were trained abroad by instructors who were employees of ASP, none of which were serving or retired members of The London Metroplitan Police.

metman · 21-02-2008 12:17am

CLADA wrote: »

CS Spray will not be issued to Gardai anytime in the foreseeable future, the incapacitant spray on issue to certain garda units is Oleresin Capsicum (OC) which has pepper as a natural ingredient.
If a decision is made to issue an incapacitant spray to Public Order Units or beat members, it will be OC.

All Garda ASP instructors were trained abroad by instructors who were employees of ASP, none of which were serving or retired members of The London Metroplitan Police.

Having trained and carried both CS and OC/Pava, I prefer CS. This is from an operational point of view. OC is sold as not cross-contaminating, affecting animals etc, and having a 90% effectiveness rate. So long as you know you need to hit your target in the eyes with it to be effective, then OC is all good. CS is less effective, not always working on drugged or drunk/agitated suspects but you only need to hit the upper body mass with it to take effect.

TheNog · 21-02-2008 12:51am

TheNog wrote: »

Just thinking deployment problems in the Gardai. One particular incident made me think about this recently. I was SO in the station and another district HQ rang me to say 3 fellas in a car had tried to break into a petrol station and were heading our way. Now 3 gardai were in our car and they headed out to try and meet the car but in fairness with the amount of roads leading off the road to us which is something in the region of 7/8 backroads, the likelihood of catching these guys is remote. I have been looking at the American way of doing their job specifically regarding one man, one car. Why don't we have something similar here in Ireland?

In my district we have 4+1 on my unit with three sub districts with 2 and 1 and 1 respectively. With the divisional changes coming on stream soon our district is about to get bigger but we will also have bigger numbers of gardai. To implement the change we would have to update and enforce better procedures and equipment such as for one the Tetra system to ensure clear and uninterrupted broadcast, notifying base of stopping a veh and each member carrying a personnal radio and phone at all times. Also when we have the ARU online it would boost our security even more.

In my view we could better police our district by covering more ground and give better response time for calls. An example would be two calls of a material damage RTA, it seems inefficient to me to have 2 gardai arrive at one rta when only one is needed. For a member looking for assistance it would be only minutes away compared to what we have at the moment it could be several minutes away even up to half an hour. We could would have more stop and search, better traffic monitoring and higher visibility all round.

Regarding safety especially at night, gardai know or at least should have the cop on (no pun intended) to see trouble brewing before it starts. Certain stops should be strictly controlled such as if I wanted to stop a car with 2 ppl in it and they look at a bit dodge then I radio of backup. If they look ok I could do it alone. If there was three in the car then definitely call for back up.

Another plan that could work. Setting up a call centre for each county similar to command and control in Dublin. All calls, emergency and non emergency, should be routed to this call centre and then given out to each local patrol car and they could also deal with calls from the cars. This would free up time for the SO in the local district station to deal with public at the counter and files. I estimate that 3-4 people manning the control centre would suffice for the county.

Tell me what ye think?

Guys this is a question I posted awhile ago but I would like to hear your opinions on it.

Eru · 25-02-2008 3:41am

metman wrote: »

You evidently misunderstood my post. Officers are mostly affected by CS through interaction with a prisoner, ie restraining, cuffing, placing in a van etc for a period after the subject has been sprayed. This is how I have come into contact with CS operationally, not because I've been sprayed or sprayed someone else. I've never seen a third party affected on account of wind/weather conditions. Oh and Pepper/Pava doesn't cross contaminate, just for your information

You are of course entitled to your opinion as to the usefulness of the kit. However I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

As regards the Met's training for CS, I can't compare it to training given elsewhere. Perhaps you'll find out if we again send trainers to Templemore, when CS is eventually issued there, as was done for ASP baton-trainer training.

MET,
My point is that it effects those around the target. Of course if its all thats on offer then I would take it but given a choice (not that I will) I would opt for a Stun gun as I personally feel its a better choice. I have used pepper spray and it did effect those in the room not just the target, I wont say where when or how obviously. Or as I read recently in the review, ask for a firearm get Tazer, ask for Tazer, get perpper spray. Ask for pepper spray get the finger

Or better yet, how about this:

security2020_1990_28785021

Extendable stun baton

Standard stun baton

The first is onyl electrified at the top section and wont work unless extended. The second one doesnt extend and is all electrified. The first is probable the better option.

Eru · 25-02-2008 3:45am

TheNog wrote: »

Guys this is a question I posted awhile ago but I would like to hear your opinions on it.

Think its a terrible idea too be gonest Nog. For starters theres the safety aspect of one man patrols. The US have multiple items for defence, we dont. they have vehicle tracking in the bigger forces, we dont and above all
Escorting a prisoner in the back with no cage whereas the states have cages.

Its just not a safe option IMHO. Anyway, didnt we try it at some stage in the past? There were problems with leaving the patrol cars behind with S41 cars and drink drivers, etc.
Besides, we dont have that many cars!

TheNog · 25-02-2008 12:27pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Think its a terrible idea too be gonest Nog. For starters theres the safety aspect of one man patrols. The US have multiple items for defence, we dont.

Well say if we had pepper spray and/or Tazer. If we had better equipment then wouldn't that make the idea viable?

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

they have vehicle tracking in the bigger forces, we dont

Isn't the new Tetra system to be installed in the cars going to have a tracking system in place? That's what is being discussed in my station.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Escorting a prisoner in the back with no cage whereas the states have cages.

Cages should be installed as standard

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Its just not a safe option IMHO. Anyway, didnt we try it at some stage in the past? There were problems with leaving the patrol cars behind with S41 cars and drink drivers, etc.
Besides, we dont have that many cars!

I didn't know it was implemented in the past. When did this happen? And what were the results? As regards S41 veh they could be towed. The whole area here needs to be tightened up with owner registration and declaration of non use just like England. Otherwise the car can be scrapped or sold.

S49 cars in my station are not usually brought back to the station. I don't really see why they should except maybe to prevent the driver driving immediately after being released.

I think we can all agree that extra cars can be bought for little or no money. Our fleet is almost if already brought up to date/modernised.

I realise it is a controversial idea but with proper equipment, which is not alot more that we have already, we could police our country roads better and intercept travelling criminals more often. Would that not be a better deterent than our current deployment techniques?

metman · 25-02-2008 2:09pm

TheNog wrote: »

Well say if we had pepper spray and/or Tazer. If we had better equipment then wouldn't that make the idea viable?

Mate be careful what you wish for! I understand your thinking in saying single-crewing equals twice as many cars out and about but knowing people who work single crewed in forces outside London, it does nothing more than kid the public into thinking they're more cops around when a force is trying to scrimp on spending money on recruitment.

The system works fine for non-confrontational stops or calls. However if you're getting a call to a violent domestic, suspects on, public order incident or a fight what happens in counties like Surrey is that a unit will arrive and await a second unit. Valuable time is lost as a second unit might be miles away.

Spontaneous vehicle stops/incidents involving numbers (car 3 or 4 up) also cause problems for single-crewed patrols. Its fine in the US or the North where you have the ultimate equaliser, a gun on your belt, but in England or Ireland again you're going to have to call for another unit if you feel it might be trouble.

A practical point on single-crewing is the boredom factor. Lads I know that did it prior to moving to MP say that 10 or 12 hours driving a car on your tod is very boring, tiring and demoralising.

I have, as I'm sure most of you have, worked with some people that were as useful as a chocolate teapot, but at the very least it was another set of eyes and ears. Single crewing takes that away and where its of unarmed police in places like Eire/UK where scumbags will have a go at two cops, let alone one, is a bad idea. I've heard horror stories of lads having to hang on for 20-30 minutes after putting up a call for urgent assistance in rural areas as the nearest single crewed car was miles away.

Its not for me, and everyone I know thats worked single-crewed much prefers having an oppo. The way forward is more double-crewed cars on the road, not less!

Just mho.

TheNog · 25-02-2008 3:58pm

metman wrote: »

Its not for me, and everyone I know thats worked single-crewed much prefers having an oppo. The way forward is more double-crewed cars on the road, not less!

Just mho.

I can see your point and thanks for your opinion. I know it is not an idea that would be a welcome one but I felt I needed to discuss it. There are inherent risks involved but I feel with careful planning on the individual Garda it could work to our advantage. Taking my district as an example I've already quoted our numbers on the same unit of myself being 4 in our station and another 4 in sub-districts. One would be S.O. and then have seven cars out on the road answering calls and patrolling. My district is not a large one at approx 50 miles in circumference so with 7 cars out, backup should be less than 5 minutes away. Possibly if two cars could team up and patrol one sub-district but still be minutes away from each other. Each member of the 2 man team back each other up when needed.

I realise that certain calls would require more than one Garda such as the public order incidents and domestics but having said that the current situ in my district is the normal 2 per car and for back up we would have to wait at least 20 minutes for support.

It has happened a couple of times to me. On one occasion we came across a large group of people beating a young couple. My colleague arrested one male and the crowd turned on us. I bundled the male into the back of the car and ran around to the other side of the car and pushed the couple into the front passenger seat of the car. I had to beat off men and women with my baton when they started to hit the car and me with sticks. All the while the arrested male was trying to kick out the back window of the car. My colleague was radioing the station for urgent assistance but of course the radio decided it was a great time to not work. We tried phoning the station but the phone was engaged with all the people ringing the station about the row. It was a complete and utter disaster and to top it all of when we arrived at the station my colleague told me had got blood in his eyes from somewhere. Both of us went to the hospital so he could get his eyes washed out. Believe or not this was a Saturday night and there was only 3 of us working that night.

Ever since that night I make sure that I am equipped with a radio, state phone and my own phone just in case. More often than not I will never use any of them during a tour of duty but it is better to have and not need and not have and need it. It is unbelieveable that some of my colleagues don't even have a phone with them when they start duty but rely completely on the radio in the car. Very lackadasical approach.

metman · 25-02-2008 5:58pm

TheNog wrote: »

Ever since that night I make sure that I am equipped with a radio, state phone and my own phone just in case. More often than not I will never use any of them during a tour of duty but it is better to have and not need and not have and need it. It is unbelieveable that some of my colleagues don't even have a phone with them when they start duty but rely completely on the radio in the car. Very lackadasical approach.

It could well work in your district. From what you say it sounds viable.

As regards, the phone/radio. Its funny that some things are the same no matter where you are.... Despite having a 'supposed' all singing all dancing digital radio more often than not I find myself using my own mobile phone, at my own expense, to bail the job out! :rolleyes:

TheNog · 26-02-2008 8:31am

metman wrote: »

It could well work in your district. From what you say it sounds viable.

As regards, the phone/radio. Its funny that some things are the same no matter where you are.... Despite having a 'supposed' all singing all dancing digital radio more often than not I find myself using my own mobile phone, at my own expense, to bail the job out! :rolleyes:

We do the same using our phones or the state phones to receive sensitive information. Fortunately our station has a little known freephone number *DOH

GTC · 26-02-2008 5:17pm

We should definitely have better cars in Traffic.

Mondeos are fine for chasing people, but the engines need to be bigger. Ford do some better higher models like a 2.5/3.0 V6.

Sick of replacing bits out of the Ford at this stage, three clutches and a new gearbox. How about a decent reliable car for a change?? Even a Mazda 6 MPS would be fine.

As for more crewed cars in rural areas, it's something that needs to be done. Not a popular option though, members can be a bit difficult to work with. I'm surprised frankly that Traffic aren't made more use of. The checkpoint game is turning very sour. I cannot see any sense in nearly abandoning the speed checks and random patrols we used to do. If nothing else, we should be helping the rural stations or the district ABCD guys.

But nothing in the job will change so long as we have the yes men in the officer ranks.

GTC, Garda Traffic Corps

GTC · 26-02-2008 5:26pm

remmurts wrote: »

Ressurecting this old chestnut...

I thin...../QUOTE]

+1 Remmurts.

totally agree

Shield · 26-02-2008 5:35pm

GTC wrote: »

But nothing in the job will change so long as we have the yes men in the officer ranks.

The irony is, to get to that rank, you have to be a 'yes man' to begin with. Luckily for us, that cycle is breaking as the yes men are taking Patten and retiring early.

Better equipment for the Gardai

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