Should Irish Army WW2 Deserters (to join B.A.) be pardoned ?

syklops · 13-06-2012 10:05am

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

The Governmentof that dayDev decided that Ireland would remain neutral and men who were serving in our Defence Forces had no right to desert; their duty was to remain and defend that neutrality. They could have waited until they had completed the time they signed up for and then gone abroad to become mercenaries.

Dev decided Ireland would remain neutral because he wanted to give Churchill the middle finger. He then gave the middle finger to every free thinking Irishman by giving his condolences on the death of Hitler. Nazi Germany, a great bunch of lads.

Morpheus · 13-06-2012 10:24am

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

therewillbe wrote: »

No!My opinion,Am I allowed one? Who is the Fascist now. Traitors are Traitors No matter how much time has passed. Moi a Racist? What a laugh,just making an observation.

You stated that its your opinion shatter made this decision based on his religion only - emphasized by "my relations" in caps.

It is one piece of retro feel good/Lets do a good deed piece for the TRAITORS who helped bring an end to the suffering of MY RELATIONS in the Camps

Devalera was the true traitor. a total c*nt. condolences to hitler? go f**k yourself eamonn, not on my behalf. i hope he rots in hell along with hitler.

Donny5 · 13-06-2012 10:47am

syklops wrote: »

Dev decided Ireland would remain neutral because he wanted to give Churchill the middle finger. He then gave the middle finger to every free thinking Irishman by giving his condolences on the death of Hitler. Nazi Germany, a great bunch of lads.

That doesn't matter. That's politics and outside the realm of the soldier. Deciding to piss off because they didn't like their orders, no matter where they ended up, is desertion.

Morphéus wrote: »

Devalera was the true traitor. a total c*nt. condolences to hitler? go f**k yourself eamonn, not on my behalf. i hope he rots in hell along with hitler.

I agree that Dev was no friend of Ireland, but he was Taoiseach during the Emergency. That means the DF had to follow the orders of his government. Soldiers thinking twice about orders they don't like leads to situations like the Civil War, and soldiers pissing off when they want to do something else is desertion.

jonniebgood1 · 13-06-2012 11:06am

Ellis Dee wrote: »

I don't know, do you?

But I assume they swore to be loyal to Ireland and to serve for the period they had signed up for. Perhaps it's more or less the same as whatever oath Irish soldiers swear today. What would have been their position if, something that was always possible, Churchill had decided to invade the Irish Free State?

It would be better to know rather than assume an oath. I don't know either so I cannot comment further on it. The reason for the question would be that it may have had reference to Britain as we were not declared a Republic at that stage.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Do you know of any Swedish, Swiss, Portuguese or Spanish soldiers who deserted their country's armed forces to fight for one or other of the belligerents and were subsequently pardoned for it?

I would not think we should be copying other countries actions, either then or now.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Shatter's decision is a disgrace. and so were those deserters. Their memory will live in ignomeny whatever the Government says.

This is clearly untrue given the wide welcome currently being given by the public to this decision. You may disagree with the decision but that does not make it ignominious.

jonniebgood1 · 13-06-2012 11:09am

Morphéus wrote: »

Devalera was the true traitor. a total c*nt. condolences to hitler? go f**k yourself eamonn, not on my behalf. i hope he rots in hell along with hitler.

DeValera is a hero in the history of this state. You should withdraw the quoted comment as it is extremely offensive. Disagree with his methods & decisions by all means but not like this.

gbee · 13-06-2012 11:15am

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Hasn't this thread come to a conclusion?
Haven't all the argument been made several times already?
Those that want to remain bitter, you will do so without me, I'm off to celebrate and unfollow thread; Job Well Done to all who contributed, I know it helped sway the Minister's mind.

Bye.

Donny5 · 13-06-2012 11:20am

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

DeValera is a hero in the history of this state. You should withdraw the quoted comment as it is extremely offensive. Disagree with his methods & decisions by all means but not like this.

Many people, myself included, would disagree strongly with that statement. I also think you asking him to remove his statement is offensive, so I think you should remove that statement about his statement and then I'll remove this statement about your statement about his statement.

Donny5 · 13-06-2012 11:22am

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

This is clearly untrue given the wide welcome currently being given by the public to this decision. You may disagree with the decision but that does not make it ignominious.

Most people have no idea about this decision. Judging by the news coverage, you'd assume that the deserters were victims in some way, not offenders, and that spin is what swayed the Cabinet, I'd say. It's also a nice distraction from the more current woes at hand.

jonniebgood1 · 13-06-2012 11:39am

Donny5 wrote: »

Many people, myself included, would disagree strongly with that statement. I also think you asking him to remove his statement is offensive, so I think you should remove that statement about his statement and then I'll remove this statement about your statement about his statement.

If you think calling someone a cu*t and telling them to go f**k themselves is proper discussion then I'll leave you to it. Thats schoolyard chat for kids.

Morpheus · 13-06-2012 11:42am

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

DeValera is a hero in the history of this state. You should withdraw the quoted comment as it is extremely offensive. Disagree with his methods & decisions by all means but not like this.

Maybe my language was a bit offensive, maybe the use of the word c**t or f**k off was too harsh, however thats how strongly i feel on the matter. Please note however that my comments were directed to the subject of devalera and not at yourself, I wouldnt engage in such name calling of a fellow poster in a forum for any reason.

No offence was meant towards you but why should I detract my statement as that's my belief? In the end, he was no hero, all the greatness that he may have done in the easter rising or war of independence was undone by his enshrinement of church and state in the constitution, his stagnation of Irelands progress and his handling of political adversaries throughout his career.

Collins is the true hero of this state and his death so early its greatest tragedy.
yet look how DV treated Collins after his assassination (look at the furor over the erection of a fitting memorial over Collins grave).

Finally look how these men who deserted and their families and their descendants were vilified in Irish history as a result of devaleras backwards looking Jurassic beliefs. Was this right? should the deserter not just have been dealt with in an adult manner, court marshalled, dishonorably discharged and then forgotten about? why tar and feather them too? why should they have to leave the country? why couldnt my granduncle live on in peace after all that he did and saw because he took his own personal moral highground?

He didnt come back to visit Ireland, his home, until the early 90s and only when my mother assured him that no longer did anyone talk about deserters or their families? He visited frequently and eventually regretted moving away, he planned to return here but sadly suffered a stroke and died alone, in the USA, where none of his family lived and in the end his final journey home was as an urn of ashes.

an oath is an honor bound promise, yet how many promises to the people have our various govts made through the years and not upheld and yet we continue to trust and believe in them?

Oasis_Dublin · 13-06-2012 2:20pm

Other - Please explain.

jamesbere wrote: »

about time this happened, it was a disgrace the way these men and there families were treated after the men returned.

I am very disappointed that people are against this. These men risked their lives not knowing if they would return against an enemy that would of brushed ireland aside in a couple of days if it had the chance.

Except that the list is a list of deserters, and just that. It is NOT a lift of men who went to fight for the Allies. Therein lies the problem.

therightstuff · 13-06-2012 2:27pm

My grandfather deserted and fought and was wounded in Normandy against the most evil force in the history of civilisation. I am very proud of him.

As for the people who talk of oaths etc. I would remind them of the Nuremberg defence- blindly obeying diktats and creeds from higher authorities was as wrong in the 1940's as it is now. The Second World War and Ireland's reaction to it was a supervening event to anyone who swore an oath to defend this country. De Valera was too worried about the Ould enemy to recognise the danger of the new one. Anyone who claims otherwise is clearly a fool.

Oasis_Dublin · 13-06-2012 2:36pm

Other - Please explain.

therightstuff wrote: »

My grandfather deserted and fought and was wounded in Normandy against the most evil force in the history of civilisation. I am very proud of him.

As for the people who talk of oaths etc. I would remind them of the Nuremberg defence- blindly obeying diktats and creeds from higher authorities was as wrong in the 1940's as it is now. The Second World War and Ireland's reaction to it was a supervening event to anyone who swore an oath to defend this country. De Valera was too worried about the Ould enemy to recognise the danger of the new one. Anyone who claims otherwise is clearly a fool.

Slight difference between genocide and desertion there. A sovereign state has the right to make its own decisions. "Anyone who claims otherwise is clearly a fool."

therightstuff · 13-06-2012 2:47pm

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Slight difference between genocide and desertion there. A sovereign state has the right to make its own decisions. "Anyone who claims otherwise is clearly a fool."

Yes there is a obviously difference between desertion and genocide. And the deserters fought against it while others buried their heads in the sand.

You're entitled to your opinion, that's why men like my grandfather fought. By the same rationale I am entitled to call you a fool.
The conversation is ended:)

Oasis_Dublin · 13-06-2012 3:01pm

Other - Please explain.

therightstuff wrote: »

Yes there is a obviously difference between desertion and genocide. And the deserters fought against it while others buried their heads in the sand.

You're entitled to your opinion, that's why men like my grandfather fought. By the same rationale I am entitled to call you a fool.
The conversation is ended:)

I'm glad to see you that understand the difference. Your poorly constructed, lazy, and rather ignorant sentence certainly suggested otherwise.

My grand uncle was able to fight in the Allied forces and my Granddad was able to remain in the Irish army. Neither of them deserted anyone. Toddle along now boy.

gizmo555 · 13-06-2012 6:28pm

Other - Please explain.

Mr Shatter gave us a telling insight into his mindset as it relates to this topic with his reference to "Londonderry" on the Dáil record today (13/06/12).

JUSTICE Minister Alan Shatter is under fire today after referring to Derry as Londonderry.

His comments were made in the Dail when he was putting through legislation to extend anti-terrorist powers under the Offences Against the State Act.

He was listing out numerous recent attacks on PSNI officers and other security personnel when he made the gaffe while outlining some of the reasons why the powers should remain.

The act was introduced after the tragic Omagh bombings in 1998.

Mr Shatter said: “Two pipe bombs set off in Londonderry on January 19, 2012.”

His comments quickly went viral and are trending on Twitter.

The name of the Northern Irish city has been the subject of an ongoing debate but the common reference in Ireland is Derry.

neilled · 13-06-2012 6:38pm

Other - Please explain.

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It would be better to know rather than assume an oath. I don't know either so I cannot comment further on it. The reason for the question would be that it may have had reference to Britain as we were not declared a Republic at that stage.

.

I do solemnly swear (or declare) that I have this day freely and voluntarily enlisted as a soldier in Oglaigh na hEireann; that I will faithfully serve as such for the period of from the day of 19 (unless sooner discharged by proper authority) and under the conditions prescribed in accordance with law; and I will accept such pay, bounty, rations and clothing as may from time to time be prescribed in accordance with law;

And I further solemnly swear (or declare) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to our country and faithfully serve and defend her against all her enemies whomsoever and that I will submit myself to discipline, and obey without question the orders of the officers appointed over me according to law.

therightstuff wrote: »

My grandfather deserted and fought and was wounded in Normandy against the most evil force in the history of civilisation. I am very proud of him.

As for the people who talk of oaths etc. I would remind them of the Nuremberg defence- blindly obeying diktats and creeds from higher authorities was as wrong in the 1940's as it is now. The Second World War and Ireland's reaction to it was a supervening event to anyone who swore an oath to defend this country. De Valera was too worried about the Ould enemy to recognise the danger of the new one. Anyone who claims otherwise is clearly a fool.

The auld enemy made it clear that had they felt the need they would have attacked and occupied the Free State had they felt it necessary for their survival, and the other belligerent power acted in exactly the same manner in europe to other neutral powers. Had things gone the wrong way for the UK, your grandfather might have found himself going back to ireland with a fixed bayonet and a round of .303 up the breech for his former comrades in arms whom he deserted. Had he decided he didn't want to go along with the UK's plans because of his "conscience" he'd have spent years in a very unpleasant military slammer or if he escaped, he would have been chased down by the authorities for years.

jamesbere · 13-06-2012 7:33pm

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

I would like to know do the people that are against the men been pardoned believe it was right how their families were treated after they returned from the war.

gizmo555 · 13-06-2012 7:42pm

Other - Please explain.

jamesbere wrote: »

I would like to know do the people that are against the men been pardoned believe it was right how their families were treated after they returned from the war.

The state's response in banning these men from public sector employment for seven years was measured and proportionate.

therewillbe · 13-06-2012 9:29pm

Other - Please explain.

gizmo555 wrote: »

Mr Shatter gave us a telling insight into his mindset as it relates to this topic with his reference to "Londonderry" on the Dáil record today (13/06/12).

JUSTICE Minister Alan Shatter is under fire today after referring to Derry as Londonderry.

His comments were made in the Dail when he was putting through legislation to extend anti-terrorist powers under the Offences Against the State Act.

He was listing out numerous recent attacks on PSNI officers and other security personnel when he made the gaffe while outlining some of the reasons why the powers should remain.

The act was introduced after the tragic Omagh bombings in 1998.

Mr Shatter said: “Two pipe bombs set off in Londonderry on January 19, 2012.”

His comments quickly went viral and are trending on Twitter.

The name of the Northern Irish city has been the subject of an ongoing debate but the common reference in Ireland is Derry.

Well well Mr Shatter,Prone to gaffes or what! Now this is another cock up by this guy.

goldie fish · 13-06-2012 11:41pm

Other - Please explain.

therewillbe wrote: »

Well well Mr Shatter,Prone to gaffes or what! Now this is another cock up by this guy.

I don't think so.

The local community have agreed to call it Both Londonderry and Derry.
The City and county are called "Londonderry" while the local government district is called "Derry".

Derry/Londonderry or "Stroke City" is also popular.

End of crisis, back to topic.

cyrusdvirus · 14-06-2012 8:32am

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

gizmo555 wrote: »

The state's response in banning these men from public sector employment for seven years was measured and proportionate.

about as measured and proportionate as sending a letter of condolence to the Germans after Hitler shot himself.....

Dogwatch · 14-06-2012 9:12am

gizmo555 wrote: »

The state's response in banning these men from public sector employment for seven years was measured and proportionate.

The State should have court martialled these men and not have done it lazy way. Neither side come out well in this instance.

Morpheus · 14-06-2012 9:14am

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

The state's response in banning these men from public sector employment for seven years was measured and proportionate.

He asked you is it your opinion, that how their families were treated was fair? not about the men themselves. Yes they couldnt work for the state for 7 years, that in itself was probably enough but that children of those who died were forced into religious educational institutions and orphanages against their will, and were singled out and assigned the initials SS (siaghduiri sasanach), is that fair now that we now what really went on in these schools and orphanages?

gizmo555 · 14-06-2012 11:50am

Other - Please explain.

Morphéus wrote: »

He asked you is it your opinion, that how their families were treated was fair? not about the men themselves. Yes they couldnt work for the state for 7 years, that in itself was probably enough but that children of those who died were forced into religious educational institutions and orphanages against their will, and were singled out and assigned the initials SS (siaghduiri sasanach), is that fair now that we now what really went on in these schools and orphanages?

Sadly, very many children were sent to industrial schools before, during and after this period on the flimsiest of pretexts. Many of them were brutally physically and sexually assaulted while there.

Among other organisations, for example, the ISPCC was strongly criticized by of all people, Frank Duff, founder of the Legion of Mary, for effectively conspiring with religious orders to shovel children into these institutions for no good reason.

However, I haven't seen the slightest credible evidence that children of deserters were singled out for special attention in this regard, or, if they were, that it was in any way officially directed or sanctioned. Nobody can even say how many children of deserters were actually in these institutions.

As for this alleged "SS" designation, for the umpteenth time on this thread, what is the proof that this ever happened, apart from an unsupported assertion in a newspaper opinion piece?

Morpheus · 14-06-2012 2:44pm

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

The official list of the deserters is contained in an irish govt publication of the time called

"List of personnel of the Defence Forces dismissed for desertion in time of National Emergency pursuant to the terms of Emergency Powers (No 362) Order 1945 (S.R. & O. 1945 No 198) or Section 13 of the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1946 (No 7/1946)"

Does anyone know if this is available online to read anywhere or do you have to buy it!?

Raging_Ninja · 14-06-2012 3:12pm

regarding de valera - there's a forest named after him in Israel as a sign of Israel's regard for him due to how much help Ireland gave to Jewish refugees during WW2.

also, the constitution that was written was a reflection of the view of the people of the time - it was not inflicted upon them unwillingly, it was ratified by the citizenry.

as for collinse - i think a lot of th reverence for him is owing to the fact that he died before he was able to get into power.

gizmo555 · 15-06-2012 6:37pm

Other - Please explain.

Interesting wrinkle on this topic in a letter to today's (15/06/12) "Irish Times":

Sir, – On the Emergency black market, a full standard issue Army kit would get you very far indeed. Possessing a veritable treasure trove of clothing and accoutrements, every deserting soldier had the potential to become a super “spiv” in between deserting and “joining up” again. While all those who fought the good against fascism deserve our gratitude, we should take care, as always, not to read their initial motivations backwards. – Yours, etc,

Dr BRYCE EVANS,
Lecturer in Modern History,
Liverpool Hope University,
Liverpool.

Cranoo86 · 16-06-2012 2:05am

Other - Please explain.

No - deserters ought to be shot. It's nothing to do with the reasons they deserted. Absolutely nothing to me; you desert your country, you are shot by firing squad!

Raging_Ninja · 16-06-2012 9:11am

Cranoo86 wrote: »

No - deserters ought to be shot. It's nothing to do with the reasons they deserted. Absolutely nothing to me; you desert your country, you are shot by firing squad!

don't be daft.

purplepanda · 16-06-2012 5:49pm

So how many of those that deserted actually joined the allied military forces? Are there any estimated figures?

Personally I don't think those that deserted & got non military civilian jobs home or abroad should get pardoned at all.

Any pardons given should be with confirmation of allied military forces records of enlistment & service beforehand IMO.

jank · 17-06-2012 4:52am

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Shatter's decision is a disgrace. and so were those deserters. :

Very strong opinion there. I would not classify anyone who joined up with another countries armed forces to defend the world against Nazism a disgrace. Sure very easy to be hurler on the ditch, Ireland had the luxury.

I for one welcome this decision wholeheartedly.

Donny5 · 17-06-2012 10:40am

jank wrote: »

Very strong opinion there. I would not classify anyone who joined up with another countries armed forces to defend the world against Nazism a disgrace. Sure very easy to be hurler on the ditch, Ireland had the luxury.

I for one welcome this decision wholeheartedly.

He isn't calling people who joined the Allies a disgrace. Tens of thousands of Irish joined the armies of Allied nations. This is about the relatively few who walked out on their obligations in the Irish military. Their disgrace is desertion, not whatever they did afterwards.

jank · 17-06-2012 3:45pm

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

By that reasoning Claus von Stauffenberg is a disgrace because he tried to kill Hitler who was the Head of the State and the armed forces.

Raging_Ninja · 18-06-2012 2:53pm

jank wrote: »

By that reasoning Claus von Stauffenberg is a disgrace because he tried to kill Hitler who was the Head of the State and the armed forces.

And this is where the ground gets dangerous. Should the military have veto power over the government.

Besides, what does it have to do with the pardoning of deserters?

jank · 19-06-2012 2:39pm

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

And this is where the ground gets dangerous. Should the military have veto power over the government.

Besides, what does it have to do with the pardoning of deserters?

Von Stauffenberg is regarded as a hero in Germany and around the world as he stood up to the Nazi regime. The point is that it is not as black and white as some may suggest!

gizmo555 · 19-06-2012 2:54pm

Other - Please explain.

jank wrote: »

Von Stauffenberg is regarded as a hero in Germany and around the world as he stood up to the Nazi regime. The point is that it is not as black and white as some may suggest!

Indeed it isn't. He and his co-conspirators went along with the Nazi regime up to the point when it became clear that they had backed a loser.

Compared to the likes of Sophie and Hans Scholl, or Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he was a moral pygmy.

Oasis_Dublin · 20-06-2012 1:44pm

Other - Please explain.

jank wrote: »

Von Stauffenberg is regarded as a hero in Germany and around the world as he stood up to the Nazi regime. The point is that it is not as black and white as some may suggest!

Around the world?! And I suppose the "world" considers Michael Collins a hero and de Valera a sniveling old cripple?! Hollywood does not equal the world.

Zambia · 22-06-2012 1:20am

Other - Please explain.

Just as an aside if the Irish Government says they where wrong to punish these men.

Ergo were the men right and the government of the day wrong?

Its like trying to fix a cracked wall with high gloss.

Manic Moran · 22-06-2012 2:27pm

Other - Please explain.

As another aside... Just because the current Minister apologises (presumably on behalf of the Government) for the manner in which the desertions were dealt, I note that the limited quote doesn't say anything about a pardon for the offenses. Can anyone confirm or deny if there is any practical substance to the statement?

NTM

gizmo555 · 22-06-2012 4:03pm

Other - Please explain.

Manic Moran wrote: »

As another aside... Just because the current Minister apologises (presumably on behalf of the Government) for the manner in which the desertions were dealt, I note that the limited quote doesn't say anything about a pardon for the offenses. Can anyone confirm or deny if there is any practical substance to the statement?

NTM

This is what the minister said in the Dáil:

"The Government recognises the value and importance of their military contribution to the Allied victory and will introduce legislation to grant a pardon and amnesty to those who absented themselves from the Defence Forces without leave or permission to fight on the Allied side."

Of course, this leaves hanging the question of how it will be determined which of these deserters "fought on the Allied side". Presumably not all of them did.

Zambia · 22-06-2012 4:04pm

Other - Please explain.

Manic Moran wrote: »

As another aside... Just because the current Minister apologises (presumably on behalf of the Government) for the manner in which the desertions were dealt, I note that the limited quote doesn't say anything about a pardon for the offenses. Can anyone confirm or deny if there is any practical substance to the statement?

NTM

Minister for Defence Alan Shatter has told the Dáil that the Government apologises for the manner in which the deserters were treated by the State after the war.

He said the Government recognises the value and importance of their military contribution to the Allied victory.

Up to 4,500 soldiers fled from the Defence Forces during the Second World War and did not return to their Irish units.

Many of them joined the British Army.

After the war, the De Valera Government published a list of those who deserted.

Yeah thats not a pardon that is just a "Sorry we were so rough on you guys" so disregard my last post. They are not pardoned at all.

F**king less hot air in the Hindenburg.

Plus if you have a state job and you leave without the due process today. I doubt you would get another state job anyway?

fasttalkerchat · 22-06-2012 4:06pm

Zambia wrote: »

Just as an aside if the Irish Government says they where wrong to punish these men.

Ergo were the men right and the government of the day wrong?

Its like trying to fix a cracked wall with high gloss.

I thought it would say that how these men were punished was wrong and that a fair punishment would be some sort of dishonourable discharge from the Irish Army.

Zambia · 22-06-2012 4:13pm

Other - Please explain.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I thought it would say that how these men were punished was wrong and that a fair punishment would be some sort of dishonourable discharge from the Irish Army.

Good god no ....you have to be vague and uncommittal about these things

Government apologises for the manner in which the deserters were treated by the State after the war.

Donny5 · 22-06-2012 4:20pm

Zambia wrote: »

F**king less hot air in the Hindenburg.

Hindenburg was a helium lifter, so that's not hard.

Dogwatch · 22-06-2012 5:00pm

Donny5 wrote: »

Hindenburg was a helium lifter, so that's not hard.

Hydrogen. Helium is inert and does not burn

Donny5 · 22-06-2012 5:02pm

Dogwatch wrote: »

Hydrogen. Helium is inert and does not burn

Right you are.

Should Irish Army WW2 Deserters (to join B.A.) be pardoned ?

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