What makes Israel so special

Selkies · 01-07-2010 5:58pm #1

I can't seem to come up with a reason why Israel gets so much media and public attention. It's a tiny state in the middle east, surrounded by much bigger states that don't get half the media attention.

I mean the obvious reason is because of their violations of human rights but there are probably a hundred countries that do that.
China being the first that comes to mind.

I mean seriously 1,000 people could die in china tomorrow and they'd get the same coverage if not lesser than Israel knocking down some homes.

And it's not because we view them as a write off nation, completely hopeless, in fact they hosted the Olympics

Here is a poster made by amnesty that scares the life out of me

Maybe it's because they are a democracy but then I looked at turkey and their kurdish terrorists...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people_in_Turkey
Now I'd write more about what happens in turkey but fact is I know so little about it because it doesn't get reported.

Russia has it's chechen rebels

Then there is somalia where people are getting killed for not growing beards.

I'm not ruling out the whole democratic thing but I have another theory

Any other ideas.

I don't want to have to resort to they are the same colour as us so we hold them to the same standards as us unless I have to.

Wolfe Tone · 01-07-2010 6:07pm

Wait, you cant say anything bad about Israel, remember: The Holocaust happened! You Nazi!

Thats basically it.

Everyone is figuring that out, and that "excuse" has worn out, hence more attention.

Nick Dolan · 01-07-2010 6:10pm

When will the chinese authorities not see the only humane way to deal with political activists is with comfy chairs and icecream.

The huge bias against Isreal only gained momentum with the flotilla, before that the middle east was "the unspellables killing the unpronounceables" as some idiot put it.

Selkies · 01-07-2010 6:19pm

Nick Dolan wrote: »

When will the chinese authorities not see the only humane way to deal with political activists is with comfy chairs and icecream.

Not sure what you mean by that but LOL

Nick Dolan wrote: »

The huge bias against Isreal only gained momentum with the flotilla, before that the middle east was "the unspellables killing the unpronounceables" as some idiot put it.

Recently, yes that's the biggest gain in momentum but there has been countless other events, Rachel Corrie for example, the security fence, the hamas election. Israel tends to stay in the news, has done as long as I watched the news.

Selkies · 01-07-2010 6:20pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Wait, you cant say anything bad about Israel, remember: The Holocaust happened! You Nazi!

Thats basically it.

Everyone is figuring that out, and that "excuse" has worn out, hence more attention.

What makes you think it's all down to that?

PeterIanStaker · 01-07-2010 6:26pm

The influence - political, financial and media, they exert in America is huge.

Also, anyone who says anything bad about them is a Nazi.:rolleyes:

Byron85 · 01-07-2010 6:29pm

Selkies wrote: »

What makes you think it's all down to that?

It has been used though and is, quite frankly the last refuge of scoundrels. A perfect example is Normal Finkelstein. Both of his parents survived concentration camps, they were in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and the rest of his family on both sides were killed by the Nazis. He was raised in a Jewish family and in a Jewish neighbourhood. The problem that arises is that he is a rather vocal critic of Israeli policies towards Palestine and is critical of the ADL, AJC and WJC. As a result of this i've have seen and heard people refer to him as "a classic anti-semite" and a "self hating Jew". That in itself should be a rather good example of how the anti-semite card is played by various officials.

Nick Dolan · 01-07-2010 6:30pm

Selkies wrote: »

Recently, yes that's the biggest gain in momentum but there has been countless other events, Rachel Corrie for example, the security fence, the hamas election. Israel tends to stay in the news, has done as long as I watched the news.

It was always in the news, but its only because of the flotilla that it became big big news. Even the use of irish passports didnt get such a big reaction. I think the OP was a bit "why is everyone picking on Israel", and to be fair its only recently that everybody suddenly has turned anti Israel. Ask someone on the street a year ago about the Gaza siege and they would have said they didnt see it but will rent it out

Whats the bets this will stay a level headed amicable thread for oh, say ten more posts?

Memnoch · 01-07-2010 6:53pm

Nick Dolan wrote: »

It was always in the news, but its only because of the flotilla that it became big big news. Even the use of irish passports didnt get such a big reaction. I think the OP was a bit "why is everyone picking on Israel", and to be fair its only recently that everybody suddenly has turned anti Israel. Ask someone on the street a year ago about the Gaza siege and they would have said they didnt see it but will rent it out

Whats the bets this will stay a level headed amicable thread for oh, say ten more posts?

I think "level-headed," and "amicable," get thrown out the window when people start casually bandying terms about such as "Anti-Israeli." Sort of like how criticising the Iraq war made you an "anti-american" for a while.

On topic, it's an interesting debate. I think it's because Islamic extremism and terrorism has probably affected the lives of more western people than the abuses in China or Turkey. At the very least, we hear a lot more about it because it's happening in western countries. Hence the middle-east and its problems are more prominent in western public consciousness.

OhNoYouDidn't · 01-07-2010 6:59pm

Its quite simple. Israel professes to be a modern, western, liberal democracy yet fails to live up to the benchmark of civilised behaviour whereas China, Russia etc make no such boast. They want to be in our 'gang' so they get more attention.

Add into the mix that Israel is the birthplace of three major world religions and its always going to be closer to peoples hearts.

In Ireland there is the obvious parallel between our history and the current Palestinian plight and some of us of an age saw the Leb on the news near nightly as Irish troops were there, and they didn't have nice things to report about the IDF and their proxies.

In short, its because its closer and we have more ties with the place.

johnmcdnl · 01-07-2010 7:06pm

It's just because Israel is the face of the west in the middle east pretty much.. there America's little love child and no one is allowed to harm them or else the media have to jump to call whoever questions Israel's status as a terrorist..

Israel is the reason their is so much global terror imo... no Israel no angry disillusioned Palestinians (Muslims) therefore no reason for jihad against the west... so much of the tension in the middle east derives directly from Israel and the USA's stance on the legitimacy of the Israeli right to occupy the land because of quotes in a 4000 year old book

monkeypants · 01-07-2010 7:10pm

They are very good at lobbying. Stuff like this is genius.

Overheal · 01-07-2010 7:16pm

johnmcdnl wrote: »

Israel is the reason their is so much global terror imo... no Israel no angry disillusioned Palestinians (Muslims) therefore no reason for jihad against the west... so much of the tension in the middle east derives directly from Israel and the USA's stance on the legitimacy of the Israeli right to occupy the land because of quotes in a 4000 year old book

...which basically reminds me entirely of the Premise to the game Homeworld...

Bebs · 01-07-2010 7:18pm

People often look at the conflict as poor Palestinians and evil Israelis. It's a very superficial view of the situation and it's one that's spoon fed by the media. One only has to look at amount of Pro-Palestinian activists in Ireland who seem to know feck all about the conflict and less again about how it could be resolved.

Nodin · 01-07-2010 7:32pm

Selkies wrote: »

I can't seem to (....)unless I have to.

You'll find defenders of Turkey, China in scant supply. You'll find those trying to imply that those states are the same as 'western democracies' even rarer still. Yet the US seems intent on pushing Israel as "one of us". It isn't. When it gets its act together, I'm sure people will reconsider.

Cookie_Monster · 01-07-2010 8:03pm

Because they are an insane country who do what they want regardless of what every other country thinks (and they are close to Europe)

OhNoYouDidn't · 01-07-2010 8:21pm

Bebs wrote: »

People often look at the conflict as poor Palestinians and evil Israelis. It's a very superficial view of the situation and it's one that's spoon fed by the media. One only has to look at amount of Pro-Palestinian activists in Ireland who seem to know feck all about the conflict and less again about how it could be resolved.

I'm sorry, the media is pro-palestine?

That megaphone might be working chaps

Johnboy1951 · 01-07-2010 8:29pm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'm sorry, the media is pro-palestine?

That megaphone might be working chaps

I wonder how long it will keep going if others use its links to counteract the pro-Israeli lobbying.

Megaphone has no registration or identity check, so nothing would stop those opposed to Israel downloading Megaphone and using its alerts to voice opinions against its activities

Memnoch · 01-07-2010 10:02pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I wonder how long it will keep going if others use its links to counteract the pro-Israeli lobbying.

Except most people aren't crazy enough to go and register on something like that in order to engage in some kind of proxy cyber war. You'd need to be at least a little fanatical to get involved in stuff like that.

wes · 01-07-2010 10:19pm

Claiming to be a Western style democracy, and being a part of the West gains Israel a lot of attention, and in fact Israel seeks out such attention:

Israel eyes Toronto for marketing test site

So, when the IDF goes on a murderous rampage against Palestinian civilians or activists, or Israel decides to bring 1.5 million people to the brink of starvation, it kind of shows up there own claims of being peace loving democrats, when the reality is that Israel is a violent colonial state.

Eliot Rosewater · 02-07-2010 10:08am

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Its quite simple. Israel professes to be a modern, western, liberal democracy...

wes wrote: »

Claiming to be a Western style democracy...

I accept that that's a reason, but isn't it a little farcical? People will let you get away with state-sponsored terrorism if you just be honest about what you're doing.

reprazant · 02-07-2010 10:16am

johnmcdnl wrote: »

Israel is the reason their is so much global terror imo... no Israel no angry disillusioned Palestinians (Muslims) therefore no reason for jihad against the west...

Is this a joke?

Are you actually saying that Islamic terrorism is all Israels fault? The twin towers, Bali bombings, Mumbai bombings, London bombings, Madrid bombings are all because Israel is in Palestine?

It has nothing at all to do with Russian in Afghanistan, then the first Iraq war? America propping up unpopular and ruthless regimes in Islamic countries?

No, nothing to do with that at all. All Israels fault.:rolleyes:

Bebs · 02-07-2010 10:37am

Well it's a two sided conflict. Pro-Palestinians selectively forget that the self professed goal of Hamas is to destroy Israel and that the Israelis are victims too, albeit far more powerful ones.

What's happening to the Palestinians is horrific and it degrades the Israelis as much as it does the Palestinians but if you think that Hamas just want to peacefully co-exist then you're out of touch with the reality of the conflict.

Israel is surrounded by enemies and has a serious siege mentality. Until they have some sense of security they'll continue to keep the Palestinians in a stranglehold and that does nothing for the long term security of Israel or for the Palestinians.

wes · 02-07-2010 10:51am

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I accept that that's a reason, but isn't it a little farcical? People will let you get away with state-sponsored terrorism if you just be honest about what you're doing.

People aren't letting anyone get away with anything. Look at Iran, who have a lot of attention being put on them, due to there treatment of there own people, and they are currently under UN, US, and EU sanctions.

Israel on the other had, are under no such sanctions, and are in fact welcome with open arms by Western governments. We have preferential trade agreements with Israel here in the EU, and one of those conditions is Human Rights and democracy. So seeing as Israel is woefull at Human Rights etc, and are under no sanctions and are in fact given preferential treatment, this is why it gets so much attention. Also, there is the fact that Israel goes about claiming to be a wonderful democracy, and is treated as such by Western governments, and this blatant double standards tend to annoy people. If anything, it is Israel that gets away with a lot of crap, that a country like Iran is rightly sanctioned for.

Eliot Rosewater · 02-07-2010 10:56am

^^ Good point

wes · 02-07-2010 11:00am

Bebs wrote: »

Well it's a two sided conflict. Pro-Palestinians selectively forget that the self professed goal of Hamas is to destroy Israel and that the Israelis are victims too, albeit far more powerful ones.

What's happening to the Palestinians is horrific and it degrades the Israelis as much as it does the Palestinians but if you think that Hamas just want to peacefully co-exist then you're out of touch with the reality of the conflict.

Hamas came into existence in the late 80's and Israel actually helped create them:

How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas

Hamas are a product of Israeli policy, and many Pro-Israel people forget this.

Also, Hamas's prominence has only come about in the last decade or so, most notably when they won democratic elections a few years ago. Before that Fatah were running the show for the most part.

Israel has been stealing Palestinian land, and murdering them decade before Hamas even existed.

Also, there is this as well:
Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto

There election manifesto, came out years after there charter, but it tends to be ignored for some odd reason.

Bebs wrote: »

Israel is surrounded by enemies and has a serious siege mentality. Until they have some sense of security they'll continue to keep the Palestinians in a stranglehold and that does nothing for the long term security of Israel or for the Palestinians.

No there not surrounded actually. Israel has peace deals with both Egypt and Jordan, and the entire Arab league has offered Israel peace, and normalizations into the region:

Text: Arab peace plan of 2002

No of course, instead of trying to work out the offered peace with the Arab league, Israel has instead chosen to steal more and more Palestinian land instead. IMHO, if Israel really wanted peace, they would have jumped at the chance that the Arab peace initiative offered, and in fact the peace offer still stands, and yet Israel continues down its current path.

thirtythirty · 02-07-2010 11:10am

johnmcdnl wrote: »

Israel is the reason their is so much global terror imo... no Israel no angry disillusioned Palestinians (Muslims) therefore no reason for jihad against the west... so much of the tension in the middle east derives directly from Israel and the USA's stance on the legitimacy of the Israeli right to occupy the land because of quotes in a 4000 year old book

Works both ways.

No angry disillusioned Palestinians (Muslims), no jihad. And that book is precisely the reason the people want a democratic country in that region - so law in the region is not governed by "a really old book".

wes · 02-07-2010 11:11am

reprazant wrote: »

Are you actually saying that Islamic terrorism is all Israels fault? The twin towers, Bali bombings, Mumbai bombings, London bombings, Madrid bombings are all because Israel is in Palestine?

According to Osama, the IDF attacks on Lebanon directly inspire the idea behind the 9/11 attacks:

From Washington Post:
Bin Laden Speaks to American People

As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me to punish the unjust the same way [and] to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and stop killing our children and women.

So, yes Israel is a huge motivator for various violent Islamist groups. Now to be fair it is by no means, the only one.

wes · 02-07-2010 11:13am

spottyelephant wrote: »

Works both ways.

No angry disillusioned Palestinians (Muslims), no jihad. And that book is precisely the reason the people want a democratic country in that region - so law in the region is not governed by "a really old book".

Um, Israels claim to the land is based on some stuff written in the Bible.........

Selkies · 02-07-2010 11:59am

I've noticed that a lot of people get very passionate about Israel, whether pro or anti Israel, more so than they would about most other issues so far from home.

Perhaps you guys could explain what makes you so interested in Israel or Palestine.

Personally it's because I spent 3 months there and still have friends who live in Israel. I'm an atheist so religion doesn't really come into it.

thirtythirty · 02-07-2010 12:09pm

I'm not pro Israel, but i'm strongly anti-people who are anti-Israel when it's the only place in the whole of the middle east I would confidently go to and not be worried about being shot at / abducted etc. It's the most (internally) stable state in the entire region and the most non-backward place - I've met Israelis in Thailand and all over Europe holidaying, playing sport etc, like a normal, developed country. They were all d/icks but so what. I'd rather be snubbed than blown up!

The whole thing is retarded.

I also don't have any interest in the whole thing except it pisses me off to no end when anti-Israel muppets interrupt my daily routine. The latest is spamming company's facebooks page with "Boycott X Company for operating in Israel and doing so and so". Well go over and pick up a f'kin AK if you care that much.

What makes Israel so special

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