ATH - First Round Match 3 - Omackeral vs MrKiscool

beakerjoe · 14-09-2015 11:28am #1

The last match is here and its Mrk is back and against former champion Omackeral

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

Q4: Internet darlings eh? Just browse through the pages on boards and you will always see a few names pop up that the Internet Wrestling Community just love. Are they really all that? There must be someone that the IWC loves that doesn't deserve all that praise because they actually aren't as good as we think. Who is the one person that the internet loves that has been hyped up too much in your view?

After your first post, why would your choice be better than your opponents?

Good luck lads

mrkiscool2 · 14-09-2015 1:17pm

The IWC can be quite weird. A lot of the time, the guys (and gals) they tend to root and follow are ones that are very good and are either being under-used or are just fantastic at what they do. However, there are a few that don't deserve the praise they get. And, for me, looking at this forum and others, it's got to be...

Dolph Ziggler

.

Before we start, I enjoy Ziggler as a wrestler. He is good in the ring and he can put on very good matches. He is a mid-card guy and that's a good place to be. But the way that the IWC go on about him you'd swear he was one of the greatest to ever lace up his boots and enter the ring. I don't agree with that for several reasons.

The first, and perhaps biggest reason, is that he has hardly any charisma on the mic. Sure, it's all scripted, but you look at guys like Rollins, Stardust and others who work brilliantly with the material they are given, especially when they are stuck with a gimmick that one has to put their all into. Ziggler hasn't got that and still fails to impress on the mic. While his in-ring action can at times get you pumped up (and we will get back to that later), his ability to talk on the mic has always sucked that energy away.

It's the reason he has been put with managers, like Vickie and AJ, who can generate the reaction from the crowd that he is unable to. To be a top guy in any company, you've got to be able to engage with the fans, to make them like or hate you, to illicit that reaction from them that your character warrants. Ziggler has never been able to do that and needs others to do it for him. While that's okay for a mid-card guy (where Ziggler belongs), for IWC fans to want him pushed to the big titles and upper card based on having no mic skills it's beyond ridiculous.

The next reason is Dolph's personality and general charisma, which is part of what is written above. Don't get my wrong, Ziggler is likeable in the ring. You want to see him do well and win. However, he just doesn't connect with the crowd the way some of the greats have. The likes of Edge, The Rock, Austin, hell even Cena, have managed to connect with the crowd in a deep meaningful way due to the presence and charisma they have. It was the same with Bryan, a man who is slightly better than Ziggler on the mic but could instantly connect with an entire crowd. Ziggler, as either a face or a heel, just doesn't have the presence to make you loathe him or love him the way people loathe Rollins or love Bryan. He just doesn't quite have it enough to be a top guy. The IWC make out like he does, but he most certainly does not have that quality (again, the heel heat he got was mostly from his managers and not from him, and as a face he wasn't getting huge pops in non-smarky crowds until Lana, a much more likeable person, worked with him).

Next, his wrestling ability. The IWC makes it out like Ziggler is a fantastic wrestler, fit to share the same company as Bryan, Punk, Rollins or any other great wrestler. The reality is that Ziggler's in-ring ability is above average but below brilliant. Sure, the guy can go, but he has never been masterful at it. His best matches have usually involved someone better than him when it comes to wrestling ability, whereas the truly great wrestlers can have a great match with anyone or anything (looking at you, Ric Flair and your coat). He over-sells, he locks in a sleeper even though his finisher requires him to be in the same position, he can't keep up the intensity in some of his matches, nevermind consistently deliver great performances. While he is a very good wrestler, he's not a great wrestler and certainly not the amazing in-ring talent that the IWC makes him about to be.

Ziggler's current position, upper mid-card, is where he deserves to be. He lacks conviction on the mic, charisma and personality in the ring and he is a good wrestler. He is not the amazing character and wrestler the IWC makes him out to be and he certainly does not deserve to be a top guy in the company. He is definitely over-rated by the IWC and I think I've shown that.

Omackeral · 14-09-2015 11:46pm

Ladies and gentlemen, my choice for the most overrated internet darling of recent times is evident by where he is now on the card, namely, not on it. His offense is terrible, his in-ring and backstage mic work is actually dreadful and even I think I could take him in a fight. I'm talking about, and this proves my point to a degree, The Internet Champion Zack Ryder.

Let's start at the beginning. He came in on the WWE version of ECW as a pretty non descript guy by the name of Brett Major, along with his 'brother' Brian Major. They were known by the awe-inspiring name The Major Brothers. Cool. They literally won one match and were moved to Smackdown where they did...nothing of note. Fast forward a couple of months and the duo became fans of the Rated-R Superstar Edge and changed their names to the slightly less generic names of Curt Hawkins and Zack Ryder. They had mild success with a solitary Tag Title reign but for the most part were just punching bags for Edge's opponents. From here Zack was drafted (remember that?) back to ECW where he began to develop a bit of personality. He cut his long hair into the short spiked up look he became known for and started to wear headbands, shades and brightly coloured trunks.

He was a heel character known as the Long Island Loudmouth in somewhat of a Jersey Shore homage. Thing is, he didn't really pull it off that well. Jersey Shore was white hot at the time and there was an obvious crossover connection there but it didn't work al that well or at least, Zack didn't make it work all that well. He wasn't cocky, he wasn't brash, he was just kind of there. Hell, TNA comedy act Robbie E did it much better. He spent plenty of time on Superstars and barely any on TV. This is where it gets interesting.

Zack went out and got himself over. He deserves all the credit in the world for this. Ryder took to Youtube and basically start having some fun messing around with a video camera on his show Z! True Long Island Story. He poked fun at his situation of not being on Raw or Smackdown but with sarcastic undertones. He became pretty damn entertaining to be honest. So much so that his show became a massive hit. People start taking notice and getting behind him. Smatterings of ''We Want Ryder'' became apparent at some arenas around the North East. He was gaining a cult fan base. The web show's popularity led to Ryder having a rise in status, making more appearances on television. Between April and June, Ryder appeared during Raw more often, often in backstage segments with John Cena. The duo had some decent chemistry to the point where Ryder forced the WWE's hand and they turned him fully face. He went on to claim the United States title (ironically from Dolph Ziggler) and..... that's pretty much where he peaked. He slid back down the card following awful angles with Cena, Kane and Eve and never recovered. People began to take to the Internet and moan and complain about this. In all honesty, Zack had found his Everest. Despite people clammering for him to be at the upper end of things mixing it with Cena et al, he's just not cut out for it.

Yes he had 12 million views on his Youtube show and I applaud that but it never translated well into backstage vignettes or in ring promos. Yes he has over 1 million followers on Twitter but that doesn't equate to talent. Kim Kardashian has over 45 million! His offense is terrible. Take for example his Rough Ryder. It wouldn't hurt. He doesn't look intimidating. He doesn't even look vicious when hitting you with a boot in the face! His catchphrase of 'Woo Woo Woo You Know' It is gick. His look just screams opening act yet people were calling for him to be pushed and pushed hard. Believe me, the United States Championship win was crest of a wave stuff. Populist opinion making its way onto programming. Fair play to him I say. But that's as good as it gets for him. He's been with the company 9 years, he never rose above mid card. Never main evented. Has barely been at WrestleMania. He's now down in NXT, a developmental brand in a jobber tag team with the similarly gimmicked and awful Mojo Rawley. The Ryder Revolution at it's height is probably only second to the Yes Movement in terms of popularity and how it get got talent noticed. Difference is that Daniel Bryan has not only been a multiple time World Champion, which lets face it is scripted, but has been named by PWI and Wrestling Observer for Best Technical Wrestler, Best Match and indeed Most Outstanding Wrestler of the Decade. Meanwhile Ryder has been championed by the people online, us, the IWC, to the point where he declared himself the Internet Champion and won a Slammy for Trending on Twitter thanks to his legion of fans but no publication of merit has ever deemed him fit for any proper accolade and in my opinion, that shows he is not only overrated, but overrated by the Internet Wrestling Community.

mrkiscool2 · 15-09-2015 1:11am

That's a good choice, and even I have to agree that Ryder was over-rated for a time. But that was it, for a short while people cared and then they stopped caring. That's something I'll get into later but first some rebuttal.

Omackeral wrote: »

His offense is terrible, his in-ring and backstage mic work is actually dreadful and even I think I could take him in a fight. I'm talking about, and this proves my point to a degree, The Internet Champion Zack Ryder.

Firstly, you are completely downplaying Ryder for the sake of the argument. Sure, he isn't a great or very good wrestler, but he can certainly hold his own. His work on the mic, when given time, is actually ok. As for the Internet Champion thing, that was something he did to get over. Can't blame a guy for trying, it wasn't a title given to him by the IWC, it was one he invented himself. Stupid, sure, but not proof that he was the IWC's favourite wrestler. Bryan, Punk and even Ziggler were ahead of him on the pecking order of the IWC's favourite wrestlers, two of them deserved, Ziggler not so much.

I'm going to skip past some of the preamble as I just feel it's talking about the development of the character up until when he became an IWC darling for a short-while (the point is coming, I promise)

He was a heel character known as the Long Island Loudmouth in somewhat of a Jersey Shore homage. Thing is, he didn't really pull it off that well. Jersey Shore was white hot at the time and there was an obvious crossover connection there but it didn't work al that well or at least, Zack didn't make it work all that well. He wasn't cocky, he wasn't brash, he was just kind of there. Hell, TNA comedy act Robbie E did it much better. He spent plenty of time on Superstars and barely any on TV.

While I agree he didn't pull off being the heel well, we all know WWE's track record with tying in with whatever is the entertainment talking point of the day. It...doesn't really go well. Ryder was never a good heel, I don't think anyone denies that. He is just one of those people that is suited to being a face and that's it. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a sign that he isn't cut out to be in the upper mid-card or the top of the card really. Something the IWC never really wanted him to be (unlike Ziggler, who is only slightly more charismatic and slightly better on the mic, even if he is a good bit better as a wrestler than Ryder) . Sure, they wanted to see him higher up the card than a lower-card jobber who occasionally won one, but I think, as wrestling fans, we all want to see that. Unlike where they want to see a guy, who is mid to upper mid-card being pushed as a champion of the company and as one of the, if not the, top guy in the company.

Zack went out and got himself over. He deserves all the credit in the world for this. Ryder took to Youtube and basically start having some fun messing around with a video camera on his show Z! True Long Island Story. He poked fun at his situation of not being on Raw or Smackdown but with sarcastic undertones. He became pretty damn entertaining to be honest. So much so that his show became a massive hit. People start taking notice and getting behind him. Smatterings of ''We Want Ryder'' became apparent at some arenas around the North East. He was gaining a cult fan base.

You're kinda arguing against yourself here. You're trying to point out that Ryder isn't deserving of the fans he has, yet you give him credit for doing a good job and getting himself over? Isn't that what you are supposed to do as a wrestler? Get yourself over? He was also using the gimmick of being like someone from Jersey Shore quite well in his Youtube show, something you dissed him for earlier on. Sometimes it takes a person time to grow into a character, to make it his own. Ryder was already showing that he was a better face on the show then he was a heel in the WWE. He was getting over due to some good work he was doing, and he deserved to be moved up the card for that. Again, the IWC weren't looking to have him near the top of the card, just a mid-card guy as he had mid-card talent.

Ziggler, on the other hand, has always needed other people to get him over. He's needed some ridicolous over-selling that, most of the time, is just stupid and makes it harder to suspend the reality that it's all scripted and just a performance and not two guys going at it. He's needed better guys to carry him to those great matches were people at the top of the card need to have on a regular basis. He's needed other people to help him generate heel or face heat as he doesn't have the charisma or mic skills to do it for himself. He is far more over-rated as, while Ryder could be argued to be a mid-carder, Ziggler could not be argued to be a top guy.

The web show's popularity led to Ryder having a rise in status, making more appearances on television. Between April and June, Ryder appeared during Raw more often, often in backstage segments with John Cena. The duo had some decent chemistry to the point where Ryder forced the WWE's hand and they turned him fully face. He went on to claim the United States title (ironically from Dolph Ziggler) and..... that's pretty much where he peaked. He slid back down the card following awful angles with Cena, Kane and Eve and never recovered. People began to take to the Internet and moan and complain about this. In all honesty, Zack had found his Everest. Despite people clammering for him to be at the upper end of things mixing it with Cena et al, he's just not cut out for it.

And this is the point. Once he went through the high of winning the US title, and being in the mid-card for a while, he basically became a crutch for the popularity leech that, at times, is John Cena. The angle with him and Kane completely destroyed his momentum. And while the IWC were upset for a time...they stopped caring a few months later. He faded back to obscurity. He wasn't the darling he once was.

As for Ziggler? He never stopped being one of the IWC favourites. Even when he was loitering around in the lower card (where he didn't belong, I'll admit), they never stopped wanted him to be the guy that carried the company, the guy that held the big title for a long amount of time. Something he most certainly did not deserve to be. Sure, a run with a secondary title here and there but nothing more. However, once Ryder got his title the IWC were happy and when he lost it they didn't care. When Ziggler got his and lost it, they kicked up a fuss saying it wasn't enough and he deserved better and he should be the WWE Champ. For over 6 years they have been singing his praises, acting like he is one of the greatest guys in the company, when in actual fact he's not even in the top 10.

Yes he had 12 million views on his Youtube show and I applaud that but it never translated well into backstage vignettes or in ring promos. Yes he has over 1 million followers on Twitter but that doesn't equate to talent. Kim Kardashian has over 45 million!

There is a massive difference between being popular for being hot and doing questionable things to get famous and actually getting famous due to something you're good at and have worked hard to achieve. You admitted above that he earned what he got, he earned the followers and views. At least he earned it. Ziggler has been made look a lot better then he is by better wrestlers, by better people on the mic with better charisma managing him and by being a good looking bloke who can be funny every now and again. He didn't earn his praise from the IWC the same way Ryder did.

His offense is terrible. Take for example his Rough Ryder. It wouldn't hurt. He doesn't look intimidating. He doesn't even look vicious when hitting you with a boot in the face! His catchphrase of 'Woo Woo Woo You Know' It is gick. His look just screams opening act yet people were calling for him to be pushed and pushed hard.

Can't really disagree with much here. He does do the simple things in the ring well and some complex things ok, but he's never been known for his in-ring action. Ziggler's finisher looks just as weak, if not weaker, then Ryder's finisher and him sinking in a sleeper hold when in that position makes it look even worse. As for Ziggler's catch-phrase? The show-off? It isn't much better and Ziggler doesn't look as comfortable with it as Ryder looked with his. Again, when a guy with little character can't even get fully behind it, how can the IWC back him to be the face of the company? it makes no sense.

Believe me, the United States Championship win was crest of a wave stuff. Populist opinion making its way onto programming. Fair play to him I say. But that's as good as it gets for him. He's been with the company 9 years, he never rose above mid card. Never main evented. Has barely been at WrestleMania. He's now down in NXT, a developmental brand in a jobber tag team with the similarly gimmicked and awful Mojo Rawley. The Ryder Revolution at it's height is probably only second to the Yes Movement in terms of popularity and how it get got talent noticed. Difference is that Daniel Bryan has not only been a multiple time World Champion, which lets face it is scripted, but has been named by PWI and Wrestling Observer for Best Technical Wrestler, Best Match and indeed Most Outstanding Wrestler of the Decade. Meanwhile Ryder has been championed by the people online, us, the IWC, to the point where he declared himself the Internet Champion and won a Slammy for Trending on Twitter thanks to his legion of fans but no publication of merit has ever deemed him fit for any proper accolade and in my opinion, that shows he is not only overrated, but overrated by the Internet Wrestling Community.

And that's the biggest reason why Ziggler is more over-rated then Ryder. Once Ryder got his moment in the sun the IWC were happy, they were pleased for him and once he was pushed off the ramp and out of the limelight, they just didn't care anymore. They knew that it was the best he could get and they were happy to let him have his moment and sink back down the card to jobber status. They just don't care anymore.

Ziggler however? They have never stopped praising him way above his abilities, they have never stopped wanting him to be one of, if not THR top guy, in the company. Ziggler may have won the Most Underrated award from the Wrestling Observer, but that also reads as an assortment of over-rated wrestlers that smarks loved and always felt were sh1t on by the company they were with. Even when Ziggler won the WHC, a great moment due to the crowd full of IWC fans who were always going to cheer for their darlings, they still complained that it was only the WHC and not the big one. A guy with awful mic skills, feck all charisma who is pretty good in the ring should not be held up as one of the best guys in the company and certainly not over an extremely long period of time. Ziggler is far more over-rated than Ryder.

Omackeral · 16-09-2015 11:43am

Firstly, thank you for putting forward such good work,effort and intensity into your arguments. It really comes across coherently and is a decent read. However, if I may point out a few flaws in your opening post.

Originally posted by mrkiscool2
Before we start, I enjoy Ziggler as a wrestler. He is good in the ring and he can put on very good matches. He is a mid-card guy and that's a good place to be. But the way that the IWC go on about him you'd swear he was one of the greatest to ever lace up his boots and enter the ring.

I too enjoy Ziggler as wrestler. Most people that I know do. He gets it done in the ring more often than not. However, I take umbrage at the last line when you say ''you'd swear he was one of the greatest to ever lace up his boots and enter the ring''. That's complete hyperbole. Nobody but nobody has ever put him in a top 10 of all time, or top 20 for that matter. He's never been considered THE guy or the face of the company ever, that's nonsense. Nowhere did anyone ever think the company should be built around him.

Originally posted by mrkiscool2
Next, his wrestling ability. The IWC makes it out like Ziggler is a fantastic wrestler, fit to share the same company as Bryan, Punk, Rollins or any other great wrestler.
The reality is that Ziggler's in-ring ability is above average but below brilliant.

Whatever about his mic work, he is a very very good wrestler. He most definately is fit to share a ring with all of the guys you've mentioned above. You say he's above average? I agree. So do most people. Hence, he's not overrated. In fact, I think he's rated just about right. He's possibly underrated by the office, if anything, which may skew people's view a bit and lead to this idea that he's held back. In fact, he's been voted Most Underrated wrestler by the respected Wrestling Observer. Do you know who immediately followed him in that award category? Tyson Kidd and Cesaro....twice. Would you call either of those boys overrated or would you agree along with most others that they were criminally underused despite their talents? In fact, when Cesaro won it last year, Kidd was just behind him in the No.2 spot with Ziggler again clipping at their heels in as the 4th most underrated guy in all of world wrestling.

Ziggler also voted Most Improved in 2011 by the same publication and voted No9 in the PWI 500 in 2013. Main stream media outlet Rolling Stone named him as their Wrestler of the year only last year. Moreover, he's never been nominated You also touched on his in ring ability. His dropkicks and superkicks are among the best in the company and he also executes some great leaping DDT's. His selling is well documented too. You may say its OTT but I say it's bloody well refreshing to actually see someone make out like these moves hurt, so we can suspend our disbelief. Cena gets his head smashed into concrete and is up smiling and laughing 30 seconds later.

Originally posted by mrkiscool2
His best matches have usually involved someone better than him when it comes to wrestling ability, whereas the truly great wrestlers can have a great match with anyone or anything (looking at you, Ric Flair and your coat). He can't keep up the intensity in some of his matches, nevermind consistently deliver great performances.

I respectfully disagree with that. Who's better than him that carries him to great matches?

Moving on. You said:

Originally posted by mrkiscool2
He has hardly any charisma on the mic. Sure, it's all scripted, but you look at guys like Rollins, Stardust and others who work brilliantly with the material they are given, especially when they are stuck with a gimmick that one has to put their all into.

Gimmicks? You want to talk about succeeding despite bad gimmicks? This guy was fricking male cheerleader! A cheerleader in a world of ass-kickers and shoot fighters. Another point, there were 5 of them in that group. Did anyone rate Nicky then? Nope. They did rate someone though and his name was Kenny Dykstra. This dude was given programmes with Ric Flair, Randy Orton and Edge. Where is he now?

His redebut saw him come in with a frankly odd gimmick whereby he'd introduce himself to people. ''Hi, I'm Dolph Ziggler''. That was a crap gimmick and to be honest it's a crap name. It still is, yet it's brushed somewhat under the rug because Ziggler got over due to good ring work. As a side point, I think he should have come in under his own name, 'The Natural' Nic Nemeth. You went on to say he's not the best at talking and I agree with you. He's average at best. But I don't know anyone that trumps up his mic skills? He's not a Cena, he's not a Rock. Bret Hart was never a dynamo on the mic, neither was British Bulldog.

In your rebuttal you said

Originally posted by mrkiscool2
Ziggler never stopped being one of the IWC favourites. Even when he was loitering around in the lower card (where he didn't belong, I'll admit), they never stopped wanted him to be the guy that carried the company, the guy that held the big title for a long amount of time. Something he most certainly did not deserve to be. Sure, a run with a secondary title here and there but nothing more. When Ziggler got his and lost it, they kicked up a fuss saying it wasn't enough and he deserved better and he should be the WWE Champ.

You're right, he never stopped being a favorite. That doesn't equate to rating him. I flipping love Enzo Amore even though his offense is gick, and so do loads of the IWC. It's ok to have favourites! Doesn't mean you think they're all Gotch and Hackenschmidt. Again you go on to say that the people wanted Ziggler to be the man to carry the company. No. No they didn't. Nobody has ever mentioned to me, nor have I seen online, that he should be Wrestlemania main eventer. Your last line makes me think you're just being obtuse for the sake of it...

Originally posted by mrkiscool2
For over 6 years they have been singing his praises, acting like he is one of the greatest guys in the company, when in actual fact he's not even in the top 10.

Name 10 better active wrestlers in the WWE.

Bottom line is this. Zack Ryder was all show and no go despite what the IWC wanted us to think. Ziggler has a great look and can definately go. He's been honored by respected publications, mainstream outlets and fans, both online and in arenas. Nobody says he should have the company built around him but he is an important piece of the brickwork. In my opinion, he's the goldilocks wrestler (not just for his golden locks :pac:) but in the sense that he's not overrated, he's not underrated, he's rated just right.

beakerjoe · 18-09-2015 2:05pm

Poll up, with both men with on rebuttal each left. Good luck folks

mrkiscool2 · 18-09-2015 7:38pm

Omackeral wrote: »

Firstly, thank you for putting forward such good work,effort and intensity into your arguments. It really comes across coherently and is a decent read. However, if I may point out a few flaws in your opening post.

Touch of real class there. I've had to take my time thinking about your rebuttals as they are well written. But now onto my final rebuttals.

I too enjoy Ziggler as wrestler. Most people that I know do. He gets it done in the ring more often than not. However, I take umbrage at the last line when you say ''you'd swear he was one of the greatest to ever lace up his boots and enter the ring''. That's complete hyperbole. Nobody but nobody has ever put him in a top 10 of all time, or top 20 for that matter. He's never been considered THE guy or the face of the company ever, that's nonsense. Nowhere did anyone ever think the company should be built around him.

I never denied that, at times, Ziggler can be extremely entertaining. However, just look up something like "should Dolph Ziggler be WWE Champion" there are hundreds of articles and threads on forum saying that, that he is one of the best wrestlers in the WWE today and deserves to be the champion and one of the top guys. I'm not arguing that Ziggler isn't in the right spot on the card (mid to upper mid-card) nor that he doesn't deserve to be there due to his talent. But the IWC are constantly saying he deserves to be the WWE Champion, that he should be pushed to the moon, that he should be on the same level of Cena and Rollins, which is over-rating his abilities. Ziggler has had a great career and there is certainly more great moments to come, but he does not deserve to be the WWE Champion or at the top of the card with his current charisma and mic-skills.

Whatever about his mic work, he is a very very good wrestler. He most definately is fit to share a ring with all of the guys you've mentioned above. You say he's above average? I agree. So do most people. Hence, he's not overrated. In fact, I think he's rated just about right. He's possibly underrated by the office, if anything, which may skew people's view a bit and lead to this idea that he's held back.

Just because you and I agree that he is in the right spot and category on the card does not mean the rest of the IWC does. As I said above, they want him to be pushed to the same level of the main stars and have at least one (if not multiple), WWE championship reigns. They want him up the top of the card, not where he belongs in the upper mid-card. Again, the IWC wanted Ryder pushed to mid-card, where I felt he belonged, but they want to push Ziggler to the moon. Not the same. They wanted Ryder to get the rewards he deserved for his extremely hard-work, and once he got it the IWC were happy and once he was dropped down the card again he was forgotten about by the IWC. Ziggler, no matter what he has or where he is in the card, the IWC always want more.

In fact, he's been voted Most Underrated wrestler by the respected Wrestling Observer. Do you know who immediately followed him in that award category? Tyson Kidd and Cesaro....twice. Would you call either of those boys overrated or would you agree along with most others that they were criminally underused despite their talents? In fact, when Cesaro won it last year, Kidd was just behind him in the No.2 spot with Ziggler again clipping at their heels in as the 4th most underrated guy in all of world wrestling.

I'd agree that the Wrestling Observer is basically just a more articulate, better debated version of the IWC. It's no secret that a lot of the inflated opinions of the IWC come from those guys. And Ziggler is definitely one of those over-rated by the IWC and the Observer, so they are obviously going to think he is under-rated. Cesaro is under-rated by the WWE, because of is current position on the card, while the IWC still rave about him and Kidd (who had a great year with Cesaro until the injury, and while I think Cesaro should be further up the card, Kidd was perfect where he was).

Ziggler also voted Most Improved in 2011 by the same publication and voted No9 in the PWI 500 in 2013. Main stream media outlet Rolling Stone named him as their Wrestler of the year only last year. Moreover, he's never been nominated You also touched on his in ring ability. His dropkicks and superkicks are among the best in the company and he also executes some great leaping DDT's. His selling is well documented too. You may say its OTT but I say it's bloody well refreshing to actually see someone make out like these moves hurt, so we can suspend our disbelief. Cena gets his head smashed into concrete and is up smiling and laughing 30 seconds later.

To be fair, Ziggler 2010 vs Ziggler 2011 is a huge difference, in both booking and just getting better in the ring. The PWI is just an algorithim they use, the fact John Cena has been top of those ratings multiple times should tell you they go by how a wrestler is booked and the importance of the company vs how good they actually are. Sure, some beautiful kicks and those DDT's are grand (wouldn't call them great though, they can look bizarre at times). Also, usin someone like Cena to talk about selling is like talking about The Great Khali to talk about mic work. I'd point you to Charlotte on Monday night, he selling of the arm was perfect. Not over-stated (like Ziggler) but clearly impairing her for the match. That's how someone should sell, not the way Ziggler does (which the IWC love, which I can never understand)

I respectfully disagree with that. Who's better than him that carries him to great matches?

The last really good match I remember him having was Sheamus. Say what you want about Sheamus' technical skill, the man can get a good match out of anyone (look up his match with The Great Khali and his feud with The Big Show for the WHC to see what I mean). His matches with Rusev (who would be similar talent wise to Ziggler) haven't really been anything to write home about, which says it all really.

Gimmicks? You want to talk about succeeding despite bad gimmicks? This guy was fricking male cheerleader! A cheerleader in a world of ass-kickers and shoot fighters. Another point, there were 5 of them in that group. Did anyone rate Nicky then? Nope. They did rate someone though and his name was Kenny Dykstra. This dude was given programmes with Ric Flair, Randy Orton and Edge. Where is he now?

Eh, don't think this is really relevant to be honest. No-one rated Ryder either when he was in the tag team, not until he started with the "Woo, woo, woo"ing.

His redebut saw him come in with a frankly odd gimmick whereby he'd introduce himself to people. ''Hi, I'm Dolph Ziggler''. That was a crap gimmick and to be honest it's a crap name. It still is, yet it's brushed somewhat under the rug because Ziggler got over due to good ring work. As a side point, I think he should have come in under his own name, 'The Natural' Nic Nemeth. You went on to say he's not the best at talking and I agree with you. He's average at best. But I don't know anyone that trumps up his mic skills? He's not a Cena, he's not a Rock. Bret Hart was never a dynamo on the mic, neither was British Bulldog.

I'll agree, the crap gimmick was crap and he did get over due to some good in-ring work. Fair play to him. Ryder got over due to his charisma and good mic-work. Both guys worked to their strengths but to be the best and a WWE Champion (which the IWC believe he should be) you gotta back up the talk in the ring or back up the in-ring work on the mic or be charismatic. Unfortunately, Ziggler is neither charismatic or good on the mic. He's need others to do his talking for him and he can't connect with a crowd while in the ring. At least Ryder could and Ryder, with his good personailty and promo-work, got what he deserved, a US title. The IWC were happy, whereas when Dolph wins a mid-card title the IWC act like he deserves more.

As for the points of putting Dolph in the same level of Bret and Bulldog, not only were they better wrestlers, but they also had charisma. They didn't need to be the greatest on the stick (they could sell a match well enough, which is all they needed to do). Ziggler has f-all charisma, he doesn't necessarily make you care about his matches.

You're right, he never stopped being a favorite. That doesn't equate to rating him. I flipping love Enzo Amore even though his offense is gick, and so do loads of the IWC. It's ok to have favourites! Doesn't mean you think they're all Gotch and Hackenschmidt. Again you go on to say that the people wanted Ziggler to be the man to carry the company. No. No they didn't. Nobody has ever mentioned to me, nor have I seen online, that he should be Wrestlemania main eventer. Your last line makes me think you're just being obtuse for the sake of it...

There is a difference between being a fan favourite and being over-rated. I don't mind someone having Ziggler as there favourite wrestler. Opinions are like asses, everyone has one and some are better than others. What I do have a problem with is people thinking Ziggler is way better than he actually is, similar to the way the IWC does. Again, I pointed out above that you search should Dolph Ziggler main-event Wrestlemania and while there are few articles and forums saying he shouldn't, most say he deserves to. He is nowhere near that level. I'm not being obtuse, I'm going from what the fans say. As much as I love boards for how rational and how good the community on here is, other forums I'm on are insane and they are the real IWC.

Name 10 better active wrestlers in the WWE.

Cesaro, Rollins, Kofi, Owens, Neville, Becky Lynch, Sasha Banks, Finn Balor, Tyler Breeze, Aidan English.

Bottom line is this. Zack Ryder was all show and no go despite what the IWC wanted us to think. Ziggler has a great look and can definately go. He's been honored by respected publications, mainstream outlets and fans, both online and in arenas. Nobody says he should have the company built around him but he is an important piece of the brickwork. In my opinion, he's the goldilocks wrestler (not just for his golden locks :pac:) but in the sense that he's not overrated, he's not underrated, he's rated just right.

No, Ryder wasn't all show. He got where he deserved to be on the card by his decent ring-work, his great character and personailty. Once he got there the IWC just didn't care anymore. Ziggler has had the second biggest title in the company at one time and the fans still wanted more, they wanted him to have a lengthy reign and then go onto capture the WWE title. They want him to be main-eventing PPVs (including WM) and be one of the top guys in the company. He has above average in-ring skills, no charisma and is pretty crap on the mic. How some online fans can see that as a guy who should have a WWE title reign and be one of the top guys in the company is beyond me.

Ziggler is in the position he should be in, upper mid-card. He should have a mid-card reign soon, because he deserves that. To suggest, like some IWC fans do, that he deserves to be the champion of the company is ridiculous. Ryder got over by himself and was rewarded for it and the IWC was happy. The WWE has listened to fans countless times about Ziggler, sticking him with characters who are either hated or loved by the crowd to pump up his personality and get him the reaction he needs, something he cannot manage to get himself due to his lack of mic skills and charisma. How the IWC can see that he is as good as they say he is has me baffled. Ryder, as you admitted himself, got himself over and deserved to be where he was on the card for a time, until the IWC gave up caring and he dropped down the card. They have never given up on Ziggler being a top guy on the card, which for a guy of his talent, is vastly over-rating his abilities. I rest my case.

Omackeral · 19-09-2015 12:23am

It's been a pleasure debating you, here's my final retort.

Originally posted by mrkiscool2
I never denied that, at times, Ziggler can be extremely entertaining. However, just look up something like "should Dolph Ziggler be WWE Champion" there are hundreds of articles and threads on forum saying that, that he is one of the best wrestlers in the WWE today and deserves to be the champion and one of the top guys. I'm not arguing that Ziggler isn't in the right spot on the card (mid to upper mid-card) nor that he doesn't deserve to be there due to his talent. But the IWC are constantly saying he deserves to be the WWE Champion, that he should be pushed to the moon, that he should be on the same level of Cena and Rollins, which is over-rating his abilities. Ziggler has had a great career and there is certainly more great moments to come, but he does not deserve to be the WWE Champion or at the top of the card with his current charisma and mic-skills.

I did look that up. Hundreds is definately stretching it though! I also did it for Dean Ambrose, who truly is an IWC darling and there were far more responses to the criteria you applied. One such article was from WhatCulture's WWE section, basically the smarkiest of smarks, and was titled '10 Reasons Why Dean Ambrose Should Be WWE Champion'. They go on to say he is the true people's champion (no mention of DZ) and should've been the first Shield member to capture the top prize. Meh, I don't agree with that really but sure it's their hype, not mine.

Originally posted by mrkiscool2
Just because you and I agree that he is in the right spot and category on the card does not mean the rest of the IWC does. As I said above, they want him to be pushed to the same level of the main stars and have at least one (if not multiple), WWE championship reigns. They want him up the top of the card, not where he belongs in the upper mid-card. Again, the IWC wanted Ryder pushed to mid-card, where I felt he belonged, but they want to push Ziggler to the moon. Not the same. They wanted Ryder to get the rewards he deserved for his extremely hard-work, and once he got it the IWC were happy and once he was dropped down the card again he was forgotten about by the IWC. Ziggler, no matter what he has or where he is in the card, the IWC always want more.

That's Daniel Bryan you've described, and described to a tee I must say. After the shambles that was the Royal Rumble where he wasn't No.30, the internet went insane. All talks of # HijackRaw and whatnot started online and the people went mad for it and it spread. Management had no choice but to bow down and re-write the script. When has that ever happened for Ziggler? Never. The anger and discontent has never overflowed to the extent that it forced them to push Ziggler beyond his station. Ryder's online fans, on the other hand, while not making him challenge for WrestleMania main events have made their voices go from their computer screens to the arenas and eventually onto their tv's and had him flirting around with top tier talent like John Cena.

Originally posted by mrkiscool2
I'd agree that the Wrestling Observer is basically just a more articulate, better debated version of the IWC. It's no secret that a lot of the inflated opinions of the IWC come from those guys. And Ziggler is definitely one of those over-rated by the IWC and the Observer, so they are obviously going to think he is under-rated. Cesaro is under-rated by the WWE, because of is current position on the card, while the IWC still rave about him and Kidd (who had a great year with Cesaro until the injury, and while I think Cesaro should be further up the card, Kidd was perfect where he was).

That's incorrect. The IWC are just everyday people. The Wrestling Observer is a business-wide respected publication. You're changing goal posts now. In the same paragraph you say the WWE underrate Cesaro yet the IWC rate him highly. But then you go on to say the Observer underrates him? How does that make sense if the IWC and the Observer are one and the same?? Tyson Kidd was far from perfect where he was, there's a reason him and Cesaro got together as the Brass Ring Club, it's because they couldn't grab any! Kidd was barely on tv and was a pre-show curtain jerker. Cesaro was often there too. Both were severely underrated by the company and this was reflected by the Observer in 2014,2013,2012. Ziggler was the same 2011 but suddenly that doesn't count? Why?

Originally posted by mrkiscool2
To be fair, Ziggler 2010 vs Ziggler 2011 is a huge difference, in both booking and just getting better in the ring. The PWI is just an algorithim they use, the fact John Cena has been top of those ratings multiple times should tell you they go by how a wrestler is booked and the importance of the company vs how good they actually are. Sure, some beautiful kicks and those DDT's are grand (wouldn't call them great though, they can look bizarre at times). Also, usin someone like Cena to talk about selling is like talking about The Great Khali to talk about mic work. I'd point you to Charlotte on Monday night, he selling of the arm was perfect. Not over-stated (like Ziggler) but clearly impairing her for the match. That's how someone should sell, not the way Ziggler does (which the IWC love, which I can never understand)

Khali is irrelevant and not even employed anymore. When he was there, he was pretty much a joke anyway, it's nothing like using Cena. I chose Cena because he's the franchise and basic biggest draw in the company and he couldn't sell water to a thirsty millionaire. If you wanna dismiss the PWI feel free to do so, but I'll just name a few of their best wrestlers from recent years. Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Chris Benoit, Kurt Angle. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they know what they're talking about.

Originally posted by mrkiscool2
The last really good match I remember him having was Sheamus. Say what you want about Sheamus' technical skill, the man can get a good match out of anyone (look up his match with The Great Khali and his feud with The Big Show for the WHC to see what I mean). His matches with Rusev (who would be similar talent wise to Ziggler) haven't really been anything to write home about, which says it all really.

That's moreso the crappy angle and booking they're all stuck with. A literal cold fish was used for a prop in the ring. That says it all really.

You said Dolph wasn't in the top 10 wrestlers in WWE. I asked you to name 10 better. You said;

Cesaro, Rollins, Kofi, Owens, Neville, Becky Lynch, Sasha Banks, Finn Balor, Tyler Breeze, Aidan English.

Cesaro- Agree.
Rollins-Agree.
Finn Balor-Agree, although he's not on main roster.
Kofi-Disagree.
Owens-Maybe.
Neville- Dunno.
Becky Lynch- Come on now, that's just silly and you know it. Comparing men and women wrestlers is apples and oranges.
Sasha Banks- See above.
Tyler Breeze- Disagree. He's in development about 5 years now.
Aiden English- Disagree, strongly.

Dolph's easily in the top 10.

Originally posted by mrkiscool2
No, Ryder wasn't all show. He got where he deserved to be on the card by his decent ring-work, his great character and personailty. Once he got there the IWC just didn't care anymore. Ziggler has had the second biggest title in the company at one time and the fans still wanted more, they wanted him to have a lengthy reign and then go onto capture the WWE title. They want him to be main-eventing PPVs (including WM) and be one of the top guys in the company. He has above average in-ring skills, no charisma and is pretty crap on the mic. How some online fans can see that as a guy who should have a WWE title reign and be one of the top guys in the company is beyond me.

There are as many online fans that say Ziggler is as underrated, as there are saying he's overrated. Believe me, I've bloody checked enough for this debate! It's pretty much 50/50 and as I've said already, that's pretty much a fair reflection of the overall outlook of the IWC. There is literally nobody online fantasy booking him for WrestleMania showdowns with Taker, Brock or Cena. He's far down the line when it comes to WrestleMania 32 plans in the eyes of the IWC. If he was so overrated, shouldn't he be the firdt name on the card? Look, Dolph Ziggler is the Goldilocks wrestler. Not rated too highly, not rated too lowly, he's rated just right. As for Ryder, despite what you might thin, he didn't really have all that great of a character. He said Woo Woo Woo You Know It. What is that? Who does it appeal to? It all came together a little too late after Jersey Shore to fully capitalise on and, as I've said before, TNA's Robbie E did it so much better and had a far superior look. Ryder had a bit of fun on his youtube show and got himself massively over with people online. As I said he has millions of fans online that made him trend and but when push came to shove he couldn't cut the mustard in the ring when it mattered and it pretty much showed tha, despite his immense popularity,he was in fact overrated by the IWC.

beakerjoe · 21-09-2015 10:18am

Bump as the poll ends at 2 today

beakerjoe · 21-09-2015 12:08pm

Just under 2 hours to vote..... come on peeps

ATH - First Round Match 3 - Omackeral vs MrKiscool

Whos the argument swayed you more? 7 votes

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