ATH : First Round Match 7 - BrianRegan v CheeseWagstaff

beakerjoe · 11-09-2015 11:46am #1

Two new guys to Around the Horn battle it out now as BrianRegan v CheeseWagstaff. Good luck fellow boardsies....

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

Q7: Many Great talents have come and gone in wrestling history, but some have been never able to grab the brass ring and become a world champion.

Who in your opinion was the greatest ever wrestler not to be a world champion in WWF/WCW/WWE?

After your first post, why would your choice be better than your opponents?

Good luck lads!

brianregan09 · 11-09-2015 5:59pm

Before I start let me just say the competition has been fantastic reading so far and hopefully i can least match some of it , Because most of the debates have been so tough to call down the middle and I have to give props to Beaker for running it so far and all the competitors for bringing there A game so far , Also before I start i want to wish my opponent the best of luck now on with the game

Some of the questions so far have been brilliant and i found my self trying to answer them in my head and some were really tough, But this one an answer popped into my head instantly a guy that should have WWE champion , Also a WCW Champion the one and only Scott Hall

Wheter it was under the guise of Razor Ramon or under his own name Scott Hall , This guy was built for the World Title , He was one of the best talkers ever , a great technical wrestler and a pretty big guy to boot , Hall Debuted possibly wrongly right in to the main event scene when he 1st came to WWE this would probably do him more harm than good interfering in a World title match between Flair and Savage letting Flair win the title

this would lead to a main event tag match at Survivor Series where Scott showed he didn't look out of place beside Flair and Savage at the top of the card , They lost the match via disqualification and the angle died when Bret won the title , soon after this Razor got his 1st title shot against Bret at Royal Rumble I think this again hurt his chances of winning because he was never going to win the title so early in his career despite Razor carried the angle well bullying brets brother owen and really looking well in the match

After that Razor found himself back down the card and threaded water a bit despite scoring a clever win over Bob Backlund another former champion , then Razor embarked on the feud with 1.2.3 kid where in my opinion he was made to look so stupid, A face turn soon followed that where Razor really made his name when he took the intercontinental title and particiapated in one of the best title matchs off all time to this day with Shawn Michaels another future multi time world champion

Razor won the intercontinental a few more times before he eventually left for WCW , But during his time in the WWE 92-96 he put on some amazing matchs and carried several horrible angles and putting over everyone he was asked including the likes of X pac (123 kid) and owen hart meanwhile the WWE Title was awarded to guys like Yokozuna a sumo wrestler who was a bigger slower version of Rikishi , Bob Backlund who was way too old to be a champion he had his time in the sun and Diesel who is a good champion but whenever I looked at the outsiders I always thought Scott was always the more talented of the two , yet Diesel had two title reigns while Scott was there

And so did Shawn Michaels , but Michaels a small guy was like someone out of there depth in a swimming pool , he was on his tippy toes just about keeping his head above water,Hogan came back and stole Bret harts thunder too for a while , Thats how much faith they had in bret. No one can tell me Scott Hall couldn't have been a better champion at the time , There was no Hogan (mostly)Ultimate Warrior or Savage the big 80's guys left , It was time for a new era and Vince Mcmahon failed to deliver it until several years later until he was forced to coincidentally by Scott Hall and Kevin Nash

So we come to WCW where Scott again at the forefront started probably one of the greatest ever Wrestling Angles the nWo , when I 1st saw this Hall coming over on his own , i thought yes my boy is finally going to hit the top of the mountain , Then Nash came over aswell , The nWo were formed at Bash at the Beach 96 when Scott and Nash were joined by Hulk Hogan , I thought wow this is so awesome , But i was wrong Hulk Hogan although rejuvenated was well past his sell by date yet still racked up 5 World title in the next few years and Nash had two aswell even going as far as creating a nWo splinter group called the Wolfpac . But by then Halls time had passed not because of his age but his demons had caught up with him

But still Hall came back from that and became a Hall Of Famer , I still can't fathom how he never ever became a World Champion a damn shame

Cheese Wagstaff · 13-09-2015 10:06am

I had considered Scott to be fair, but he pales in comparison to the one and only...

"Rowdy" Roddy Piper

Beginning his career with the NWA and Georgia Championship Wrestling, it is with WWE that he became most famous. Piper began his career as the manager of David Schultz and "Mr. Wonderful" Paul Orndorff. This became a stepping stone to him being given his own interview segment, the much revered "Piper's Pit". It was here that Piper was able to show the world his undeniable charisma, and his masterful ability on the stick. It is arguable that this also opened up more opportunities for him to fully flesh out his wrestling persona. The segment brought iconic wrestling moments, such as a feud with Bruno Sammartino, and of course the striking of Jimmy Snuka with a coconut. The idea of using a talk show to showcase a wrestler's ability to entertain was undoubtedly a catalyst for future World champions to show their ability to entertain, not just through their wrestling skills, but also through their personality: Chris Jericho's Highlight Reel, Edge's 'The Cutting Edge' being the best examples, and then the short lived but golden Carlito's Cabana, and now Miz's 'MizTV. These all came through Piper's innate ability to show how a wrestler can connect with an audience purely with their instincts and mic skills.

It also helps that Piper was a hell of a wrestler. Anybody who was anybody in the business, chances are that Piper feuded with them. Chavo Guerrero Sr, Sgt Slaughter, Greg Valentine, Ric Flair. He was a pivotal figure in the first ever Wrestlemania, and featured in the main event with Hulk Hogan. This would later be voted the Match of the Year. It was very clear from the get go that Piper was somebody who could play with the big boys at the top and not look out of place. He had more strings to his bow than just an amazing way with words.

Crossover potential is something which has always been important when having a world champion to be the face of the company. Piper always attempted to do this, featuring in numerous television shows and films, including a cult catchphrase coined by him:

"I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubble gum."

Accolade wise, he managed to become Intercontinental champion, and was also a Tag Team champion. However, a man of his potential should definitely have been given a go with the big one. Legendary champions nowadays need to be skilled in multiple areas, and Piper showed more than anyone that he belonged in that breath. I have more saved for my future replies, but Roddy Piper was an endlessly talented performer. If you're described by Ric Flair as "the most gifted entertainer in the history of professional wrestling", then you must be doing something correctly. To put it bluntly: Piper had it all.

He is the greatest wrestler never to win a world championship.

brianregan09 · 13-09-2015 2:41pm

Great pick in Piper have got to say I expected either him or Perfect and I think I'm ready for both

Now there's no denying Piper was one of the best guys there was on the mic and a good wrestler too to boot , Piper was very similar to Scott hall as a matter of fact as they were both fantastic brawlers and could mix it up with matt skills too

There was a problem that Scott Hall faced in his WCW days , That Piper suffered alot more from in the 80's , Hulk Hogan who was in his prime and Vince of course had the horn for him, If ya look at Pipers time in the WWF at the time , look at who was World Champion in that time, Hogan was champion the whole time Piper was there in his 1st spell and feuding with Andre the Giant who didn't take the title off Hogan untill 88 when Piper was gone ,and even then it was a screwy finish, Now when you've got a man the size of Andre the Giant who can't even beat Hogan cleanly to take the title off of what chance did Piper have , Hogan was undefeatable in Vince's eyes

I think Piper had a place on the card and used it well, While Hogan was bodyslamming the giant , Piper was fighting a celebrity , if ya look at that equivalent today you have Star Dust fighting Stephen Ammell . Would Stardust be world title materiel I don't think so , Now obviously before ya go off and say its an unfair comparison , It is but its the same place on the card

If ya think about it. It was the 2nd year in a row Piper had been put in a celeb match when he teamed with Orndorff and against T and Hogan at Wrestlemania 1 Piper's side lost and he wasn't even involved in the decision

At WM3 Piper had a retirement match with Adrian Adonis which he won...but with some help , Piper for me was fantastic but the way he was booked he would have never been taken serious as a World Champion , You had Hogan, Warrior Andre and Savage all around at the time and lest not forget you had Mr.Perfect, Jake the Snake Roberts and the Million Dollar man all in there prime too and none of those 3 were World Champion either and all 3 were much better candidates in my opinion

I think the fact that Piper did have a love affair with Hollywood did affect his chances too , Maybe he was a little too mainstream as he never seemed to stay around too long , He was always the funnny bad guy when it came to any card , wheter be him hosing morton down with a fire extinguisher or coming to the ring controversially in half black and half white paint for his match against Bad News Brown, There always an agenda to Pipers character and matchs , When he did really get down to it he found his spot with the intercontinental Title

This led to a match that I only watched recently with Bret Hart in one of the best matchs of his career he surrendered the title to the future champion Hitman I feel this was probably the apex of his WWF career at the time as his appearances became more and more sporadic

Coming to WCW where most of the late 80's early 90s guys still reigned supreme this was probably the closest he'll ever get to winning a world title again only to be denied by bloody Hulk Hogan in his only ever World Championship match but again Pipper returned to the mid card soon after with a US title reign a spot as commisioner and a feud with Vince Russo of all people

In closing should Piper have been a world champion yes and no Piper was a fantastic guy to have on the card but never somone who was going to carry you're company as the midcard was where he belonged

Cheese Wagstaff · 14-09-2015 8:45pm

We are basing things off of different criteria. The question is about who should have been a World champion based on their abilities. The question has nothing to do with booking. Your reply mostly concerns how Piper was booked, which I do not think is a good benchmark to gauge someone's worthiness of top accolades.

A World champion is somebody who can entertain, and somebody who can promote the company through their actions in and out of the ring. While image may not have been as important in the previous decades as it is now in today's social media dominated world, being recognisable makes success more easily achievable.

There was a problem that Scott Hall faced in his WCW days , That Piper suffered alot more from in the 80's , Hulk Hogan who was in his prime and Vince of course had the horn for him, If ya look at Pipers time in the WWF at the time , look at who was World Champion in that time, Hogan was champion the whole time Piper was there in his 1st spell and feuding with Andre the Giant who didn't take the title off Hogan untill 88 when Piper was gone ,and even then it was a screwy finish, Now when you've got a man the size of Andre the Giant who can't even beat Hogan cleanly to take the title off of what chance did Piper have , Hogan was undefeatable in Vince's eyes

Of course Piper was not on the same level as Andre strength-wise. However, WWE is a company that has often showcased how brain ultimately beats brawn. So the immovable brute cannot beat the Hulkster with his strength? No problem. The conniving and cunning Roddy Piper can outsmart the American Hero, whose passion gets the better of him when the pressure is on. When they think they have the answers, he starts changing the questions perhaps? Piper seizes his opportunity and becomes champion through nefarious means. That's certainly not an inconceivable idea in any way, shape or form. Edge and more recently Seth Rollins have done this, and it has been believable.

At WM3 Piper had a retirement match with Adrian Adonis which he won...but with some help , Piper for me was fantastic but the way he was booked he would have never been taken serious as a World Champion

Heels cheat to win. Heels get help to win. It's been like that since day 1, and I'd be shocked if it changed any time soon. By this logic the following wrestlers could not be taken seriously as World Champions: Edge, JBL, Seth Rollins, Chris Jericho, Shawn Michaels. Also Ric Flair. The nWo also would win via underhanded methods.

I think Piper had a place on the card and used it well, While Hogan was bodyslamming the giant , Piper was fighting a celebrity , if ya look at that equivalent today you have Star Dust fighting Stephen Ammell . Would Stardust be world title materiel I don't think so , Now obviously before ya go off and say its an unfair comparison , It is but its the same place on the card

Stephen Amell is the lead in a relatively successful TV show. He is known, but certainly not a household name. Mr T was one of the most famous television actors of that era and of all time. Prior to their two matches together, he had also starred in Rocky III, part of one the most iconic film franchises in American cinema history. The first match they took part in was the main event of the first ever Wrestlemania, and was also voted Match of the Year. This is a far cry from the comparison you made, which you also admitted was an unfair one to make.

I think the fact that Piper did have a love affair with Hollywood did affect his chances too , Maybe he was a little too mainstream as he never seemed to stay around too long , He was always the funny bad guy when it came to any card

I don't think crossing over can be used as a negative, certainly not when discussing who was willing to grab the brass ring for the company and who wasn't. It is quite obvious that Vince McMahon values employees who can prove their worth in other areas. It is also obvious that when this happens, it portrays the WWE in a good light and highlights them as being culturally relevant and a successful business rather than just a wrestling company. The personality you describe there is of the cool heel, a character who shows more human traits, and resonates with people. This is definitely the hallmark of an entertainer who was way more nuanced than his peers, and somebody ahead of his time in his approach to working a crowd.

While we can both agree that Piper and Hall were great wrestlers, it is truly impossible to gauge which one was more proficient in that area. The facts remain that Roddy Piper was instrumental in getting WWE off the ground as a player in the entertainment industry, through his ability to keep the crowd in the palm of his hand, his wrestling ability and by being able to make himself culturally relevant. As good as Scott Hall was, he simply does not leave the imprint that Piper does. His career was one of innovation, while Scott was never truly groundbreaking. A Hall of Famer for sure, but not the wrestling pioneer that Piper was, which ultimately still cements him as the most talented man never to win the main championship.

brianregan09 · 14-09-2015 10:16pm

I think you'll find the question was

Many Great talents have come and gone in wrestling history, but some have been never able to grab the brass ring and become a world champion.

Who in your opinion was the greatest ever wrestler not to be a world champion in WWF/WCW/WWE?

Being the greatest wrestler ever ...if you were to take it that literally Piper would lose anyway as Hall is the better brawler and technical wrestling but because theres a whole host of things professional wrestling is based on its not just based on mat skills

Wrestling ability covers everything from booking and everything else, Piper was fantastic on the mic and that's what he was used for. He had a great spot on the card the antangonist , the fact that Hulk Hogan was in his prime at the time is the main reason Piper didn't make it to the top and also the exact reason that Warrior was the one that eventually beat Hogan because Vince thought he had a fresh Hogan clone on his hands , usually booking shouldn't come into the equation , But this time it does

The 80's was the age of Hogan a massivley over wrestler in the form of an American hero nobody could touch him it wasn't until Piper left in 87, Piper left at the very wrong time because the following year Savage won the title the 1st i'll say around Pipers weight to win the title , Then Hogan came back and normal service resumed. It's not a slight on Piper's talent definitely not , Its just there was a Hogan shaped wall in front of him and then he left for 2 years , this brings me back to my other point his's appearances were sporadic every time Piper seemed to be making good headway

And the reason I said distractions when talking about the movie roles , Is because they were often non Vince Mcmahon sponsored ventures unlike Hogan who worked on No Holds Barred and stuff like Suburban Commando all which were worked into or around by the WWF , where as Piper wanted to make it off his own back ,

I talked about Hogan and Andre fighting for the title , It all started on Piper's pit, That was his spot unfairly or not that was it , I'd have loved to seen Hogan and Piper go at it but thats retrospectively speaking if i'd been watching years ago when it actually was happening I do think i would instantly thought **** Hogan is going to plow through the talk show host

On the Heel thing you mentioned Edge and Rollins but the big difference between them and Piper is the era Edge, Rollins, Jericho , Miz are all looked at diffrently now just look at Cena , he's this generations Hogan and people are delighted to see him beaten totally different climates and eras , Cena would have been a god in the 80's and likes of Edge and Rollins would be stuck in the Piper spot , Heels were actually hated back then and no one wanted to see them win , they were actually booed and everyone wanted to see Hogan conquer the bad guys, Again the whole brain beats brawn arguement didn't start till after hogan moved on

Again same thing applies yes Heels cheat to win , Piper was just wrestling in the wrong era he was before his time and in the wrong company, Flair was doing it in the NWA and WCW at the same time , but then Flair was the wrestling god and was portrayed as a champion all the time from the look right down to everything else and was technically one of the best ever in the ring.

Another thing that alot of people wouldn't have touched on is Piper's look , He was a midweight guy that went around in a kilt and a white t shirt , I know you're going to say that doesn't matter. Well it does , Look at Hogan again (i hate the guy but this is relevant) an oiled tanned almost caricature of a statue. He not only was the man he looked every inch it.

This is my last reply so I'm going to please ask the boardsies to read each reply from both of us and not vote on the fact that Piper recently died

Vote for Scott Hall the only founding member of the nWo not win the big one be it as the Bad Guy Razor Ramon where he had a 5 star match with HBK which was also named match of the year in 1994 seen as you threw little stats out there for Piper , and in 1994 there would have been alot more competition, Back at Wrestlemania 1 there was only 1 major show ...

Vote for Scott Hall who not only made Razor Ramon work with his fantasic charisma ooozing machiizmo and the trademark toothpick , Scott did something Piper rarely did he took on a character and made it work same with the Diamond Studd in the early WCW days , Hall was responcible for one of the most memorable nights in Wrestling History that night he walked out on Nitro the fact that he wasn't a World Champion is a disgrace imo

beakerjoe · 16-09-2015 10:06am

Poll added and Chesse still has one more rebuttal

Cheese Wagstaff · 16-09-2015 1:16pm

My final rebuttal will be up tonight ðŸ˜Š

Cheese Wagstaff · 17-09-2015 7:24pm

I did allude to the fact that wrestling encapsulates more than just technical skills:

The question is about who should have been a World champion based on their abilities. This refers to more than just the physical side, and I feel I made that very clear.

You see, ultimately the main point that you have as to why Piper never became a World champion, is also the main reason why Hall was never the champion. Hulk Hogan. As a member of the nWo, was Scott Hall ever going to be presented as being a more credible champion than Hogan? You say booking is all important in this game of seeing who is given the nod to become the champ, and the fact is that he just never would have matched up in the eyes of the company. We can go back to his time in WWE. His two biggest feuds there were against none other than Bret Hart, and Shawn Michaels. I think we can safely say that these are two battles that Scott was never going to win in terms of who brought more star power. Myself personally also thinks this was a shame, as he was fantastic, but ultimately he was going to play second fiddle to these guys. I personally do not think that booking comes into this argument, but you do. As such, these are the facts that we have to look at.

His MOTY in the Ladder match, over time has been shown to be groundbreaking for its time, but very dated. Much like Piper's MOTY you could also say given that it was almost 30 years ago. Hall was against one of the greatest wrestlers of all time, Piper had to do heavy lifting with Hogan and a non-trained wrestler. It's all semantics, but these are also the facts.

You say that heels are hated and that nobody wants to see them win? This is why they have to win, so as to be able to build the virtuous face wrestlers as heroes who can dethrone them and give them their comeuppance. What would have been the point in having Hulk Hogan as the champion if he wasn't able to prove how he was the American Hero? Every hero needs a villain, and every hero needs to overcome the odds. Piper was more than able to fill that villain role, and help Hulk to become even more beloved. We are talking about a man who was PWI's 'Most Hated Wrestler' in 1984 and 1985. Surely a man with as much heel ability as Piper could have elevated Hogan and any other face who crossed his path, simply by having them come after his world title?

Piper's look? I'll just leave this image below:

rowdy-roddy-piper-51-wwf-1990-titan-sports-classic-wrestling-trading-card-21871-p.jpg

rowdy-roddy-piper-51-wwf-1990-titan-sports-classic-wrestling-trading-card-21871-p.jpg

Hardly a man in need of dropping a few pounds. Piper was in phenomenal shape himself, and even when he was older making cameo appearances in the noughties, he was still shirtless during matches. A complete non-issue.

Roddy Piper was a man who was a phenomenal wrestler, in all senses of the word. He could brawl, he could be technical. He could talk for days, was spontaneous and very witty in his performances. To say he was never able to make a character work is laughable, as after being voted Most Hated Wrestler for the second time, he was PWI's 'Most Popular Wrestler of the Year' (1986). This is hardly the mark of a man who had trouble playing different characters.

When all is said and done, Scott Hall will have had a great career. Roddy Piper has had a stratospheric career simply through his work across all areas. He is a bigger name across the world, and has succeeded in entertaining people in ways that not many others have managed to replicate. I have to reiterate that Ric Flair said that Roddy Piper, not Shawn Michaels, Hulk Hogan or Bret Hart, or Scott Hall, was 'the greatest entertainer in the history of professional wrestling'. Arguably acknowledged as the greatest ever, Flair's words about wrestling carry weight, and this cannot be ignored.

Piper could entertain, and he could fight. I have to say that your comment about people voting for Piper due to his recent death is insulting to other Boards users. I have laid out my argument in black and white, that Roddy Piper was the greatest wrestler never to hold a world championship. In paving the way for future generations to succeed using his blueprints, and for the many years of service he gave to wrestling as both a performer and an ambassador, he acted and carried himself as a champion.

He deserved to be acknowledged as such when it was over.

beakerjoe · 18-09-2015 2:07pm

Bump, only 1 vote separates the 2

Cheese Wagstaff · 20-09-2015 12:12pm

Is this over so?

beakerjoe · 21-09-2015 10:16am

Yes the poll has closed

ATH : First Round Match 7 - BrianRegan v CheeseWagstaff

Who was teh greatest never to be champion? 7 votes

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