Ukraines PM - "We still remember well the Soviet invasion of Ukraine and Germany. "

KingBrian2 · 20-01-2015 12:11am

All the bad news is in Donetsk good news in Havana as America is normalising relations. Good on President Obama now lets hope himself and Castro can sit down and have some Cuban cigars together.

Elmer Blooker · 20-01-2015 12:12am

Gatling wrote: »

So in your eyes the little green men, there tanks
, heavy artillery , little green men my apologies russian infantry units currently in east ukraine aren't aggressors,
Eastern Ukraine that's never had any issues in the past no civil unrest or a history of armed rebellion against Kiev .
Suddenly find an army

Are not aggressors in any which way

No history of armed rebellion against Kiev?
I posted this link recently and I'm posting it again in the interests of historical accuracy. In 1918 the Germans set up a puppet regime in Kiev, the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine refused to recognize this regime and established their own republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk–Krivoy_Rog_Soviet_Republic

The legacy of the Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic was revived again during the 2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine.

pablomakaveli · 20-01-2015 12:19am

cerastes wrote: »

Why? they have been shown to have institutional levels of corruption, what do they bring to the EU?

And? What did Lithuania,Latvia or Cyprus for example bring to the EU when they joined? What did Ireland bring? It's a co-operative community of European nations of which Ukraine is one and has as much right to be in the EU as the other countries i mentioned.

Putting NATO this far seems too much for the Russians, it was never meant to incorporate anything further than east germany, the Russians seem to see this as deceit. It was certainly never intended to include The Ukraine.

But again NATO was never planning to invade Russia or conduct aggressive acts against it. All Russia has done in the last year is validate NATO's existence.

I never made them sound like innocent victims, you said it was the US and European countries that have experience with letting states act like this like they solely suffered,in reality those places have done the same to many other countries (Gt Britain: spin the globe and put your finger down, Belgium:Congo, US: South America,Asia and so on. The Soviet Union (mainly Russia) suffered pretty badly at the hands of Nazi Germany, I never said this makes them innocent, they themselves had agreements with that State, split Poland with them, I havent said Russia is any different to these states, you are suggesting they are, Im saying they act the same and worse when it suits them.

The US and European countries are different to Russia in that they seem to have learned something from it. Russia is behaving exactly like Germany did in the years leading up to WW2. Evidently they learned nothing from that experience.

There has been decades of fighting in Sudan,
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-14069082

Montenegro would never have happened without NATO, Kosovo likewise which didnt secede with agreement and isnt recognised by other states with their own internal divisions, where the newly formed state has seceded without agreement of the original main state.

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ELI112A.html

Both secessions were conducted through peaceful democratic means despite the conflicts before. If anything it shows that the peaceful democratic method has recently been the more successful method.

Gatling · 20-01-2015 12:21am

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

No history of armed rebellion against Kiev?
I posted this link recently and I'm posting it again in the interests of historical accuracy. In 1918 the Germans set up a puppet regime in Kiev, the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine refused to recognize this regime and established their own republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk–Krivoy_Rog_Soviet_Republic

A whole 17 days nearly 100 years ago .
If it actually happened

cerastes · 20-01-2015 12:30am

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Both secessions were conducted through peaceful democratic means despite the conflicts before. If anything it shows that the peaceful democratic method has recently been the more successful method.

In both those instances both sides were armed or had armed support, had there been an imbalance where one side was not armed or supported, secession would have been more violent.

Having said that, did you not read the links?

WakeUp · 21-01-2015 3:21pm

looks like the separatists still control the airport or whats left of it anyways and surrounding area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGTygMhbf-0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TQP_OJ9bm0

Elmer Blooker · 21-01-2015 3:48pm

I see Kiev forces are indiscriminately shelling residential areas including a university and a hospital, this escalation is not surprising as its obviously an attempt to prevent a political solution which could result in the lifting of sanctions. I wonder who ordered this escalation?

http://news.yahoo.com/fighting-eases-donetsk-ukraine-claims-airport-victory-112929288.html
Don't ya just love the bit about "insurgents launching attacks from residential areas" - heard that one before from the Israelis!!
"....hundreds of Russian troops have crossed the border to join the fight..." - only hundreds? It used to be thousands in these fictitious invasions

BoJack Horseman · 21-01-2015 4:10pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I see Kiev forces are indiscriminately shelling residential areas including a university and a hospital, this escalation is not surprising as its obviously an attempt to prevent a political solution which could result in the lifting of sanctions. I wonder who ordered this escalation?
http://news.yahoo.com/fighting-eases-donetsk-ukraine-claims-airport-victory-112929288.html
Don't ya just love the bit about "insurgents launching attacks from residential areas" - heard that one before from the Israelis!!
"....hundreds of Russian troops have crossed the border to join the fight..." - only hundreds? It used to be thousands in these fictitious invasions

Wow that is some chip!

Civilians from both sides are being hammered.

Separatists killed 8 last week when a bus was hit.

gandalf · 21-01-2015 5:50pm

Of course there is mounting evidence internally in Russia that they are officially supporting the "separatists" with troops despite their crocodile tears and denials.

“You can’t hide this information, secretly bury soldiers, secretly send people abroad to fight,” said Sergei Krivenko, a member of the Russian human rights group Memorial, who has been helping relatives of those killed in eastern Ukraine, as well as soldiers who are trying to resist being sent there. “What status do families of the wounded and dead have, what compensation and medical aid? Help from the government depends on this status.”

The “volunteer” service Putin referred to is often anything but, according to several rights advocates. They say soldiers have told them that they were pressured to sign documents to go on a “business trip” to eastern Ukraine or “volunteer” in other ways. Tumanov told his mother that his commanders offered a 400,000-rouble bonus to sign up to fight in Ukraine, then simply ordered them forward when volunteers weren’t forthcoming. Some captured Russian paratroopers recounted that they had gone on a supposed training mission in armoured carriers and only later realised they were in Ukraine.

It is unclear how many Russian servicemen have been killed in eastern Ukraine, but soldiers’ rights advocates say the number is likely to be in the hundreds. Besides Open Russia’s 260-name working list, the independent television channel Dozhd has confirmed the deaths of 34 soldiers named in a list on its website.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/19/russia-official-silence-for-families-troops-killed-in-ukraine

It is clear to everybody bar the heavily indoctrinated that this whole conflict would not exist without the sponsorship of the regime of Vladimir Putin. Thankfully for once the EU has shown some balls with the sanctions and given the events of the last few days there is now reason to expand them further against this dangerous rouge state that lies on the edges of the EU's borders.

Iwasfrozen · 21-01-2015 5:55pm

gandalf wrote: »

Of course there is mounting evidence internally in Russia that they are officially supporting the "separatists" with troops despite their crocodile tears and denials.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/19/russia-official-silence-for-families-troops-killed-in-ukraine

It is clear to everybody bar the heavily indoctrinated that this whole conflict would not exist without the sponsorship of the regime of Vladimir Putin. Thankfully for once the EU has shown some balls with the sanctions and given the events of the last few days there is now reason to expand them further against this dangerous rouge state that lies on the edges of the EU's borders.

Of course Russia are supporting the seperatists, how else would they have gotten those tanks? That NATO are supporting Ukraine and Russia are supporting the separatists is hardly anything new.

Dannyboy83 · 22-01-2015 2:22am

gandalf wrote: »

It is clear to everybody bar the heavily indoctrinated that this whole conflict would not exist without the sponsorship of the regime of Vladimir Putin.

Igor Girkin proudly acknowledged months ago that the Russians were the aggressors, not the Ukrainians:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russias-igor-strelkov-i-am-responsible-for-war-in-eastern-ukraine/511584.html

Russian national Igor Strelkov, a former commander of pro-Moscow separatists in eastern Ukraine, has claimed personal responsibility for unleashing the conflict in which 4,300 people have been killed since April.

"I was the one who pulled the trigger of this war," Strelkov said in an interview published Thursday with Russia's Zavtra newspaper, which espouses imperialist views.

"If our unit hadn't crossed the border, everything would have fizzled out — like in [the Ukrainian city of] Kharkiv, like in Odessa," Strelkov, who uses that nom-de-guerre meaning "Shooter" to replace his last name Girkin, was quoted as saying.

"There would have been several dozen killed, burned, detained. And that would have been the end of it. But the flywheel of the war, which is continuing to this day, was spun by our unit. We mixed up all the cards on the table," he said.
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Strelkov also told Zavtra that at the beginning of the conflict, Ukrainian separatists and government forces were reluctant to start fighting and that the main opposition to the rebels came from Ukraine's ultranationalist militants such as the Right Sector.
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"At first, nobody wanted to fight," he was quoted as saying. "The first two weeks went on under the auspices of the sides trying to convince each other [to engage]."
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At the start of this summer, 90 percent of the rebel forces were made up of local residents, Strelkov was quoted as saying. However, by early August, Russian servicemen supposedly on "vacation" from the army had begun to arrive, he said.

According to Strelkov, the assault on the Black Sea town of Mariupol in September, which prompted concerns in Ukraine and the West that Russia has entered the conflict on a large scale, was conducted mostly by the Russian military "vacationers."

The rebel forces advancing on Mariupol at that time met with little resistance from government troops and "could have been taken without a fight, "but there was an order not to take it," he was quoted as saying.
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After Donetsk and Luhansk held "referendums" on their independence from Ukraine in May, separatist leaders appealed to Moscow to accept the territories as Russian regions but Moscow responded with vague statements calling for "dialogue" between rebels and Kiev.

The separatist groups had not contemplated building functional states and had pinned their hopes on being absorbed by Russia, Strelkov said, reasoning that Moscow needed a land connection to Crimea, which it had annexed in March.

"And then, when I understood that Russia was not going to take us in — I associated myself with the resistance — for us that decision was a shock," Strelkov was quoted as saying.

BoJack Horseman · 22-01-2015 9:03am

The time isn't right yet for Russia to absorb Luhansk/Donetsk.

A year or so from now, when enough blood has been spilt, valiant Vlad will suggest the absorption in order to bring peace & stability to a shattered region (blessed are the peacemakers).

Elmer Blooker · 22-01-2015 10:14am

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The time isn't right yet for Russia to absorb Luhansk/Donetsk.

A year or so from now, when enough blood has been spilt, valiant Vlad will suggest the absorption in order to bring peace & stability to a shattered region (blessed are the peacemakers).

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26828625
So long ago now since Putin suggested a Federal Ukraine, the conflict seems to have escalated out of control, then MH 17 and the EU was "persuaded" to impose sanctions etc etc....

pablomakaveli · 22-01-2015 12:52pm

Some pictures of Donetsk airport from the battle. (Warning might be a little NSFW as you can see bodies in one).

Looks like the place took a battering.

pablomakaveli · 22-01-2015 1:04pm

Russian tv appeared to show troops wearing Russian marine insignia fighting at Donetsk.

http://www.businessinsider.com/christophe-harress-russian-showed-russian-troops-inside-ukraine-2015-1?IR=T

Video footage has emerged from Russian state-controlled television reportedly shot inside the Donetsk airport in eastern Ukraine and showing troops with the insignia of the Russian Naval Infantry, or Russian Marines, on the soldiers' uniforms, according to reports from Ukraine Today, an independent Kiev-based TV station.
If true, the video further undermines Russia’s denial it is providing soldiers to fight alongside pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.
The Kremlin-backed TV station Rossiya 1 first broadcast the video on Jan. 15. The Ukraine government claims that about 700 Russian troops arrived in the country on Monday.

BoJack Horseman · 22-01-2015 1:30pm

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Russian tv appeared to show troops wearing Russian marine insignia fighting at Donetsk.

Who wears their work attire while they are on "holiday"?

cerastes · 22-01-2015 1:47pm

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Russian tv appeared to show troops wearing Russian marine insignia fighting at Donetsk.

http://www.businessinsider.com/christophe-harress-russian-showed-russian-troops-inside-ukraine-2015-1?IR=T

As much as I suspected this is the case, the Ukrainians seem to have been spectacularily unable to deal with 700 holidaying marines or any number of their adversaries, apparently Mariupol (sic?) could have been taken easily but wasnt. The Ukranians are looking a bit incompetent if for the most part they are dealing with militias.
Why cant they effectively surround the airport with a selection of varying quality of troops, and then target and systematically push the defenders out? as easy as it is to write that, they seem to be just throwing ad hoc militias at it themselves.

BoJack Horseman · 22-01-2015 3:10pm

cerastes wrote: »

As much as I suspected this is the case, the Ukrainians seem to have been spectacularily unable to deal with 700 holidaying marines or any number of their adversaries, apparently Mariupol (sic?) could have been taken easily but wasnt. The Ukranians are looking a bit incompetent if for the most part they are dealing with militias.
Why cant they effectively surround the airport with a selection of varying quality of troops, and then target and systematically push the defenders out?

Many reasons.

- The front stretches well over 100kms encompassing score of towns & villages.
There isn't the numbers to wage war across it all. Surrounding Luhansk & Donetsk is impossible

- numbers on both sides are nearly equal.
A lot of the rebels are former Ukrainian servicemen who defected, bolstered by 7,000+ Russian "volunteers".

- the separatists & Russians hold the advantage in both quality of equipment & quality of troops.

- Russian anti air weapons make this a largely ground war..... the few aircraft the Ukrainian have left lack precision radar guided weapons.... so sorties are few and of little impact.

I'm sure there is ineptitude, but its a tough task.
Any army would find it tough to dislodge 30,000 keenly motivated fighters.

WakeUp · 22-01-2015 3:49pm

gandalf wrote: »

Of course there is mounting evidence internally in Russia that they are officially supporting the "separatists" with troops despite their crocodile tears and denials.

noopolitik 101. the Ukrainians are playing that game too it isn't just the Russians. wars aren't just fought on the battlefield but in the minds of the masses it's as much an information war as a physical battle.

Gatling · 22-01-2015 4:21pm

The Ukrainians have introduced conscription for military service so they can organise a 200,000+ strong military .
Almost the right idea ,
But up against well trained and we'll equipped russian infantry and heavy weapons their better off lobbying for a European peace enforcement mission to be deployed to these so called separatists areas ,
Bring in a no fly zone and demilitarised areas between the east's borders and russia .
With strict enforcement

BoJack Horseman · 22-01-2015 5:18pm

Gatling wrote: »

The Ukrainians have introduced conscription for military service so they can organise a 200,000+ strong military .
Almost the right idea ,
But up against well trained and we'll equipped russian infantry and heavy weapons their better off lobbying for a European peace enforcement mission to be deployed to these so called separatists areas ,
Bring in a no fly zone and demilitarised areas between the east's borders and russia .
With strict enforcement

They passed the bill to authorise conscription, however they have nothing like the money needed to draft & train more than a few thousand a year.

The EU (sadly) would never authorise, let alone implement a DMZ buffer along the Russian border.

Iwasfrozen · 22-01-2015 6:51pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

They passed the bill to authorise conscription, however they have nothing like the money needed to draft & train more than a few thousand a year.

The EU (sadly) would never authorise, let alone implement a DMZ buffer along the Russian border.

They're getting 350 million dollars of US military aid and you can expect more in future, money may not be such a big problem.

http://www.ibtimes.com/us-russia-relations-obama-signs-bill-giving-weapons-ukraine-allowing-economic-1763106

cerastes · 22-01-2015 11:23pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Many reasons.

- The front stretches well over 100kms encompassing score of towns & villages.
There isn't the numbers to wage war across it all. Surrounding Luhansk & Donetsk is impossible

- numbers on both sides are nearly equal.
A lot of the rebels are former Ukrainian servicemen who defected, bolstered by 7,000+ Russian "volunteers".

- the separatists & Russians hold the advantage in both quality of equipment & quality of troops.

- Russian anti air weapons make this a largely ground war..... the few aircraft the Ukrainian have left lack precision radar guided weapons.... so sorties are few and of little impact.

I'm sure there is ineptitude, but its a tough task.
Any army would find it tough to dislodge 30,000 keenly motivated fighters.

Well, those 30,000 must also be spread out,
I think its more to do with other things, surely they have some professional soldiers too?
Someone said it before, hit them hardest with as much as you have where it hurts, you'd think they'd apply their best where their enemy are weak to at least try break some of their spirit, constantly losing at the airport is like digging your own stalingrad.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They're getting 350 million dollars of US military aid and you can expect more in future, money may not be such a big problem.

http://www.ibtimes.com/us-russia-relations-obama-signs-bill-giving-weapons-ukraine-allowing-economic-1763106

Probably into someones pockets, while the poor stupid bastards get conscripted.

BoJack Horseman · 23-01-2015 10:13am

cerastes wrote: »

Well, those 30,000 must also be spread out,

Indeed, however any attempt to push through from the northern border, to cut off the separatists was hammered by artillery fire from across the border.
That allows the Russian forces & separatists to focus on the front better, knowing that any northern flank attack from Ukraine can be countered.

surely they have some professional soldiers too?

Yes, but not nearly enough.

20,000+ defected at the start of the conflict, including a huge amount of their officer corps.

Its a huge shock to the C&C of any nations army to lose that.
Plus, between deaths, injuries, missing & captured, Ukraine has lost over 10,000 trained men.

You can mobilise all you want, but competence & experience cannot be easily replaced.

Someone said it before, hit them hardest with as much as you have where it hurts, you'd think they'd apply their best where their enemy are weak to at least try break some of their spirit, constantly losing at the airport is like digging your own stalingrad.

There is no element of surprise though.

Every movement the Ukrainian army makes is known. If a column of armour rolls south through a village, the knowing of this in Donetsk is just a phone call away.

The bulk of the rebels are around Donetsk & Luhansk.
The Ukrainian army has enough old unguided munitions to devastate these areas, but the civilian toll would be unbearable

Lemming · 23-01-2015 10:15am

cerastes wrote: »

Well, those 30,000 must also be spread out,
I think its more to do with other things, surely they have some professional soldiers too?
Someone said it before, hit them hardest with as much as you have where it hurts, you'd think they'd apply their best where their enemy are weak to at least try break some of their spirit, constantly losing at the airport is like digging your own stalingrad.

Saying things like "hit them hardest with as much as you have" really doesn't amount to much sense as this isn't a punch-up in the street after closing time. There is no strategic point in bleeding yourself dry of men & resources leaving little capability for the foreseeable future in order to achieve a single goal in a much larger picture.

gandalf · 23-01-2015 11:23am

Looks like the so called "rebels" aren't interested in a ceasefire at all.

The main pro-Russian rebel leader in eastern Ukraine says his troops are on the offensive and he does not want truce talks with Kiev.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30949527

Time to hit their Russian masters harder with tougher sanctions I think. Make Putin yank the choke chain on his dogs in eastern Ukraine.

cerastes · 23-01-2015 3:44pm

Lemming wrote: »

Saying things like "hit them hardest with as much as you have" really doesn't amount to much sense as this isn't a punch-up in the street after closing time. There is no strategic point in bleeding yourself dry of men & resources leaving little capability for the foreseeable future in order to achieve a single goal in a much larger picture.

I agree to an extent, didnt realise they lost so much of their experienced military, maybe the Ukranians are relying on sitting it out for the most part and public perception and international sanctions which may reap better rewards, in that instance, still making military incursions seems like a significant thing, although in that event, Id be trying my best to ensure any attack or raids as much as possible would succeed to build experience and not lose any propaganda battles or morale.

As brutal as it seems, I can see why they are resorting to shelling, not sure of the benefits of losing support where the shells are landing, but that might not exist there anyway.

I thought their military was more significant and didnt bank on that number of defections. Unless those guys are from that region, one assumes they'll never be able to return home.

nice_guy80 · 24-01-2015 10:46am

I wonder how many fighters Russia has sent into the Ukraine?

now that the Russian economy is sliding, they've decided to reduce the payroll and strike back at the western imposed sanctions

rockatansky · 24-01-2015 10:48am

Looks Like a rocket attack in Mariupol has killed at least 10 people.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0124/675306-ukraine/

I was watching Ross Kemps Extreme World last episode about Mariupol. It appears to be vital city in terms of trade and Production for Ukraine however the Ukranian defenses appeared minimal at best. The Azov who protect the town look to be a semi-organised bunch of football hooligans with a lot of time on their hands.

Gatling · 24-01-2015 10:49am

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I wonder how many fighters Russia has sent into the Ukraine?

now that the Russian economy is sliding, they've decided to reduce the payroll and strike back at the western imposed sanctions

Estimated 8-10,000 Russian troops currently in Ukraine

Lemming · 24-01-2015 3:54pm

Gatling wrote: »

Estimated 8-10,000 Russian troops tourists currently in Ukraine

Fixed that post for you ...

Ozymandius2011 · 24-01-2015 8:01pm

I still believe that the EU took far too long to sanction Russia. It sends a very bad signal when we wait for 199 Dutch nationals to be killed before we sanctioned Russia economically. I think one factor in the intensification of the conflict recently are equivocal remarks from Hollande and SPD politicians about the need to lift sanctions (in Hollande's case he called for them to be lifted "now"). With the sanctions up for renewal in March-June Putin obviously thinks he can wait them out. It's also possible Putin sees the economic collapse coming (former Finance Minister who resigned over military spending Alexei Kudrin has just told the World Economic Forum a wave of layoffs is coming) but like Hitler in the 1930s faced with escalating borrowing feels he needs to grab Ukraine's resources e.g. Black Sea gas, Donbass coal, to soften the blow. Unfortunately this reflects what the media are saying today about the marginalisation of the Westernisers/economists in his govt. Hardline Putin ally Sergey Markov says Putin now only takes advice from the persons of a security background. Meanwhile Radio Free Europe is reporting on what Russian state media is calling a "Sixth Column", comprised of ministers seen as too wobbly on Ukraine. It is seen as a prelude to a possible purge.

I think it raises questions for future EU treaties as to how we can streamline decisionmaking in the area of foreign policy. I was on the no side in Lisbon but recent events have changed my minds.

Armistice · 24-01-2015 10:29pm

Gatling wrote: »

Estimated 8-10,000 Russian troops currently in Ukraine

And not a photo in sight.

If Russia was to commit to taking Ukraine, they could do so within weeks. That's not what they want.

Vlad clearly doesn't give a fook about what people think of him. If he wanted to take Ukraine he would have done so by now. There is no doubt about Russian support. I think people here do not understand Russian patriotism. Russians will help their brethren over the border.

Maybe, just maybe the rebels don't want to be run by a government who stages a war against them and their Russian culture. A government backed by people who ousted the government they elected by force. The people who spearheaded this force brandishing far right insignia's and shouting anti Russian rhetoric.

We Irish of all people should know what it means to have a government try to eradicate and demonize your culture in your own country.

Armistice · 24-01-2015 10:32pm

rockatansky wrote: »

Looks Like a rocket attack in Mariupol has killed at least 10 people.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0124/675306-ukraine/

I was watching Ross Kemps Extreme World last episode about Mariupol. It appears to be vital city in terms of trade and Production for Ukraine however the Ukranian defenses appeared minimal at best. The Azov who protect the town look to be a semi-organised bunch of football hooligans with a lot of time on their hands.

I wonder how safe a majority Russian town feels being protected by Asov, an openly Neo Nazi militia. Not hard to find photos of Asov battalions on google images. See the swastikas, the SS symbols.

Armistice · 24-01-2015 10:34pm

gandalf wrote: »

Looks like the so called "rebels" aren't interested in a ceasefire at all.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30949527

Time to hit their Russian masters harder with tougher sanctions I think. Make Putin yank the choke chain on his dogs in eastern Ukraine.

Actually Kiev failed to invite the rebels to the latest round of ceasefire talks. They instead said "There is nothing to discuss" and authorized the drafting of 50000 Conscripts.

The Minsk agreement was to pull heavy artillery back from Donetsk. Kiev did not do this. They broke the cease fire.

pablomakaveli · 24-01-2015 10:41pm

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Russian tv appeared to show troops wearing Russian marine insignia fighting at Donetsk.

http://www.businessinsider.com/christophe-harress-russian-showed-russian-troops-inside-ukraine-2015-1?IR=T

Armistice wrote: »

And not a photo in sight.

Look at my previous post in the quote above yours. And that on Russian tv as well.

BoJack Horseman · 24-01-2015 10:46pm

Armistice wrote: »

I wonder how safe a majority Russian town feels being protected by Asov, an openly Neo Nazi militia. Not hard to find photos of Asov battalions on google images. See the swastikas, the SS symbols.

If the Russian army weren't shelling the town, Asov would be back on the football terraces.

(The city is 44% ethnic Russian, 48% ethnic Ukranian.)

Hibernosaur · 24-01-2015 10:51pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

If the Russian army weren't shelling the town, Asov would be back on the football terraces.

(The city is 44% ethnic Russian, 48% ethnic Ukranian.)

The Russian Army are not shelling that town. Why on Earth would the Russian army shell it?

It's either Kiev, Kiev sponsered militias, or Pro-Russian rebels.

Russians and Ukrainians are the same ethnicity anyway. They both come from Slavic tribes of Eastern Europe, both were ruled and formed into a nation state by Viking rulers the Kiev Rus. Both have identical cultures. Only difference is the language with Russia being closer to Old Slavic and Ukrainian being very similar to Polish.

Ukraine is just a former Russian region. Literally meaning Borderlands, as in the borderlands of the Russian empire. Ukrainians are as Russian as Vodka. Some of them like to pretend that they are closer to the Germanic tribes and have some sort of far right idealism, these same people say Russians are not slavs, but Finno-Ugrics that were mixed with Mongolians.

In fact they are all Rus ethnically, Only the West Ukrainians, from former Hungarian and Polish territory, are ethnically different.

BoJack Horseman · 24-01-2015 11:00pm

Hibernosaur wrote: »

The Russian Army are not shelling that town. Why on Earth would the Russian army shell it?

East Ukraine is the hotspot for 'holidaying' Russian soldiers at the moment.

Who can say some of these vacationers didn't fancy a day at by the coast & decided to take a spin down in some self-propelled artillery or an MLRS or two?

We know Rostov-on-Don has been an assembly point for hundreds of Russian 'holidaymakers'

Hibernosaur · 24-01-2015 11:04pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

East Ukraine is the hotspot for 'holidaying' Russian soldiers at the moment.

Who can say some of these vacationers didn't fancy a day at by the coast & decided to take a spin down in some self-propelled artillery or an MLRS or two?

We know Rostov-on-Don has been an assembly point for hundreds of Russian 'holidaymakers'

Many Russians, Serbians and others have taken up the fight for their brothers and sisters in East Ukraine. The Russian gov is supplying them.

Governments supply rebels all the time. How do you think Ireland got its freedom?

Iwasfrozen · 24-01-2015 11:20pm

Hibernosaur wrote: »

The Russian Army are not shelling that town. Why on Earth would the Russian army shell it?

It's either Kiev, Kiev sponsered militias, or Pro-Russian rebels.

Russians and Ukrainians are the same ethnicity anyway. They both come from Slavic tribes of Eastern Europe, both were ruled and formed into a nation state by Viking rulers the Kiev Rus. Both have identical cultures. Only difference is the language with Russia being closer to Old Slavic and Ukrainian being very similar to Polish.

Ukraine is just a former Russian region. Literally meaning Borderlands, as in the borderlands of the Russian empire. Ukrainians are as Russian as Vodka. Some of them like to pretend that they are closer to the Germanic tribes and have some sort of far right idealism, these same people say Russians are not slavs, but Finno-Ugrics that were mixed with Mongolians.

In fact they are all Rus ethnically, Only the West Ukrainians, from former Hungarian and Polish territory, are ethnically different.

Implying there are no Russian soldiers in the militia.

That Ukraine and Russia are the same country because they share an origin is a ridiculous statement to make. Ireland and Scotland share an origin but history and geography have formed them into two separate countries. Same with Scandavia. Same with Italy. Same with Germany and Austria. Same with Russia and Ukraine.

Hibernosaur · 24-01-2015 11:25pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Implying there are no Russian soldiers in the militia.

That Ukraine and Russia are the same country because they share an origin is a ridiculous statement to make. Ireland and Scotland share an origin but history and geography have formed them into two separate countries. Same with Scandavia. Same with Italy. Same with Germany and Austria. Same with Russia and Ukraine.

I did not mean that they are the same country, I wanted to illustrate that they are the same ethnically and therefore any division based on ethnic division or cultural division is based on a lie designed to drive these peoples apart. These people are brothers and sisters.

Thankfully thousands of people are starting to turn up to protests in Kiev in opposition to Kiev's military campaign against the Donetsk people. More and more ordinary Ukrainians are showing solidarity with the Donetsk civilians who are getting shelled by Ukraine.

Iwasfrozen · 24-01-2015 11:38pm

Hibernosaur wrote: »

I did not mean that they are the same country, I wanted to illustrate that they are the same ethnically and therefore any division based on ethnic division or cultural division is based on a lie designed to drive these peoples apart. These people are brothers and sisters.

Thankfully thousands of people are starting to turn up to protests in Kiev in opposition to Kiev's military campaign against the Donetsk people. More and more ordinary Ukrainians are showing solidarity with the Donetsk civilians who are getting shelled by Ukraine.

What lies?

I do feel for the people of Donetsk and Lubansk. Russia are unwilling to take them (yet) but I think they should be allowed independence if the majority of people in the region desire it.

That will free up the rest of Ukraine to join the EU and eventually NATO.

Ozymandius2011 · 24-01-2015 11:44pm

Hibernosaur's argument is akin to saying the Americans should have remained in the British empire because they were of the same ethnic origins in 1776. This conflict was planned, financed and armed by Putin. Until recently most of its leaders were Russian nationals many of them also active in other separatist conflicts, such as Vladimir Antufuyev (former security chief of Transnistria), Igor Strelkov (suspected in Visegrad massacre in Bosnia where thousands were thrown off bridges and burned alive), Alexander Borodai (who refused to answer in an interview whether there was indeed a Russian training camp over the border in Rostov) etc. Members of Russian Far Right movements have boasted at fighting in Ukraine, and Russian soldiers had posted on Vkontakte of "shelling Ukraine all night". This info has been in the public domain for months. The fact that Sergey Glazyev (Putin's advisor on Ukraine) warned Yanukovych in 2013 that if Ukraine signed the EU Association Agreement he could no longer guarantee Ukraine's existence as a state also points to the war being a threat delivered from Putin.

Gatling · 25-01-2015 12:13am

Armistice wrote: »

Actually Kiev failed to invite the rebels to the latest round of ceasefire talks. They instead said "There is nothing to discuss" and authorized the drafting of 50000 Conscripts.

The Minsk agreement was to pull heavy artillery back from Donetsk. Kiev did not do this. They broke the cease fire.

That's not 100% accurate there was no mention of withdrawl of heavy artillery at all ,
One of the interesting points was a security zone between russian and Ukrainian borders that was to be monitored by the OSCE that hasnt happened at all ,
Also the withdrawl of all foreign mercenaries ,fact that hasnt happened at at ,
Now we have attacks on muripol with one rebel leader claiming they were launching an offensive to grab land or something similar,

Can't seem to find any references to protests in kiev calling for a halt to taking Donetsk

Hibernosaur · 25-01-2015 12:29am

Gatling wrote: »

That's not 100% accurate there was no mention of withdrawl of heavy artillery at all ,

From the second Minsk Protocol
- To pull heavy weaponry 15 kilometres (9.3 mi) back on each side of the line of contact, creating a 30-kilometre (19 mi) buffer zoneTo ban offensive operations

Gatling wrote: »

Can't seem to find any references to protests in kiev calling for a halt to taking Donetsk

They are regularly protesting. Holding signs saying" je suis Donetsk". You would need to read Ukrainian domestic news or something like Kievpost and Russian news like Itar Tass to see these things as they are not on Sky and the like. Euro news no comment is also good.

Hibernosaur · 25-01-2015 12:42am

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Hibernosaur's argument is akin to saying the Americans should have remained in the British empire because they were of the same ethnic origins in 1776.

Have you actually read my posts? I never made such argument.

How did Putin plan this conflict? Did you miss the part where Ukraine had a revolution? Tried to ban Russian? When gangs of thugs took over government buildings? Threw molotov cocktails at police?

Do you think the East who voted in the previous government would just let revolutionaries ruin their livlihoods by cutting ties with Russia, the regions only trading partner that keeps them all in jobs?

How do you think the Russian Ukrainians felt when they saw the massacre in Odessa against Russian Ukrainians carried out by Far right neo Nazis? When portraits of Stepan Bandara ww2 Ukranian SS officer amd genocidal maniac we're hung in The Ukranian government buildings?

When Ukraine began arming openly Nazi militias and gave the licence to kill Ruskis?

This isn't about Putin. Russia is only a support act in a very Ukrainian civil war.

Ozymandius2011 · 25-01-2015 12:55am

Hibernosaur wrote: »

Have you actually read my posts? I never made such argument.

How did Putin plan this conflict? Did you miss the part where Ukraine had a revolution? Tried to ban Russian? When gangs of thugs were took over government buildings? Do you think the East who voted in the previous government would just let revolutionaries ruin their livlihoods by cutting ties with Russia, the regions only trading partner that keeps them all in jobs?

How do you think the Russian Ukrainians felt when they saw the massacre in Odessa against Russian Ukrainians carried out by Far right neo Nazis? When portraits of Stepan Bandara ww2 Ukranian SS officer amd genocidal maniac we're hung in The Ukranian government buildings?

I know that there have been a lot of doctored photos and reports appearing in Russian social and state media to spur support for this conflict. The BBC had a story from some months ago of a doctored image of a Hitler banner on Ukrainian government buildings that was debunked. Also the notorious lie about the crucified child that Ksenia Sobchak criticised in Putin's recent Q+A session (which was unusual in that a few hostile questions were allowed).

The situation in Odessa was a riot that was started by the pro-Russians and pre-organised on social media as an attempt to declare an Odessa republic. They beat up pro-Kiev activists but found they had started a fight they couldn't win. Again, doctored photos - including the notorious one of a pregnant woman that in fact was not in the building and was posed - flooded the web as if on schedule. The police chief of Odessa mysteriously ended up in Transnistria a few days later talking to Russian media. That affair looks fishy to me and far too convenient to have happened as Russia is claiming. It was of course also a tragedy and whoever was responsible should be punished.

Finally the claims about "banning the Russian language" are a lie that has been oft repeated by Putin-trolls. Svoboda proposed downgrading its status but there was never a bill to ban it. And the proposal didn't make any progress. A lot of the problem here is the gullability of Russians in Ukraine to Kremlin-controlled propaganda. Like the Sudeten Germans they want the empire back. Even if Russian had been downgraded, the proposal was not to ban it but to reverse a law that made it official in regions with at least 13% Russian speakers and in any case, it didn't go through. That didn't stop Itar-Tass claiming Russian was banned in Ukraine.

Gatling · 25-01-2015 12:58am

Hibernosaur wrote: »

From the second Minsk Protocol
- To pull heavy weaponry 15 kilometres (9.3 mi) back on each side of the line of contact, creating a 30-kilometre (19 mi) buffer zoneTo ban offensive operations

From the 2nd memorandum missed that ,

Neither side has pulled back ,think why would Ukrainian forces pull back heavy weapons when russian forces increased in numbers in east Ukraine ,
Nothing is going to calm down till russia withdraws 100% of there forces and equipment from Ukraine its as simple as that ,
Putin knows he cant push a russian forced majority for a break way from Ukraine and he well cant afford to prop up several wannabe states

Ozymandius2011 · 25-01-2015 1:20am

Stopfake.com have debunked more Kremlin propaganda, this time over a notorious video they said were students in Kiev shouting "hang the Russians". The first video below is what actually happened - a pro-EU demo in Drogobych.

The second video is the doctored version on Russian media and social media.

Ukraines PM - "We still remember well the Soviet invasion of Ukraine and Germany. "

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