Fine Gael's credibility

glued · 03-05-2014 12:44pm #1

I'd say that most of the people in this nation know about the seedy underbelly of Fianna Fail's corruption and abuse of power during their time in Government. The acts of Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern, Liam Lawlor, Padriag Flynn, Charlie Haughey, Frank Dunlop etc... have all been, rightfully, tarnished as corrupt political figues who disgraced their position of power.

But they seem to have suffered on their own. We know about Olivia Mitchell who received £500 pounds from Frank Dunlop, she's somehow managed to retain her seat despite the findings of the Mahon Tribunal. She would probably be on the front bench had she not supported Richard Bruton's attempted coup of Enda Kenny in 2010. Michael Lowry (former FG) unbelievably remains extremely popular in Tipperary.

Liam Cosgrove Jr. is as bad as the Fianna Fail corrupt. He's of the same ilk.
My point is that Fianna Fail have deservedly suffered as a result of these exposures but Fine Gael have appeared to come out unscathed. People seem to have forgotten that in 2001 Fine Gael had to settle a huge bill for avoiding tax. People have forgotten about Garret FitzGerald's own corruption and his abuse of power.

I don't think I can say that had Fine Gael of been in power they would of been equally as corrupt but it's a moot point as that question cannot be answered. But they weren't given the same opportunity as Fianna Fail. Do you think that it's fair that Fianna Fail are the only ones that are isolated as corrupt?

johnnyskeleton · 03-05-2014 9:06pm

I think it is probably impossible or at least very difficult for a large political party to have absolutely no dirt on them. It's a pity but it seems to be relatively common the world over. Ironically, some of the ones with less corruption are actually worse in that they usually follow a stern dogma.

In any event, FG are bad, but FF are worse. First things first, we as a people need to show low tolerance to corrupt behaviour.

woodoo · 04-05-2014 12:13am

93 people have viewed this thread in 12 hours yet only one replied. The unfortunately truth is that in Ireland we just aren't that exercised about corruption of politicians or a lack standards in office... so it will continue.

Manach · 04-05-2014 12:54am

At a guess, it could be there is an implicit socially held assumption that the political system is corrupt by its inherient framework setup. The combination of readily available money and lack of a significant oversight mean that the default setting is dishonest and that un-corrupt behavior is truly newsworthy. Offhand AFAIR there was the linkage of lotto money being spent statistically more in the Sport's minister area, which was the same irrespective of party or political doctrine.

mikewest · 04-05-2014 1:04am

Maybe it is simply that FG are not institutionally corrupt like FF. You do not progress through the party ranks simply by corruption as the norm. As with all political parties some do but they do not comprise the entire ruling cabal. FG are not a good party but they don't and in my lifetime have never smelled like FF but older folks remember their dalliance with fascism. Politics and corruption go hand in hand but we must all make a decision on a day to day basis if the corruption of the current crowd of rulers benefits or undermines us. There is no other politics - unfortunately

Phoebas · 04-05-2014 9:04am

woodoo wrote: »

93 people have viewed this thread in 12 hours yet only one replied. The unfortunately truth is that in Ireland we just aren't that exercised about corruption of politicians or a lack standards in office...

... or just didn't see much merit in the OP.

glued · 04-05-2014 9:11am

Phoebas wrote: »

... or just didn't see much merit in the OP.

Probably a bit of both tbh.

I'd agree with the notion that Fine Gael aren't as institutionally corrupt as Fianna Fáil. Corruption breeds corruption and that's clearly what we saw with Fianna Fáil.

smcgiff · 04-05-2014 9:14am

FF had utterly corrupt leadership over a long period of time. As the leader was corrupt he was only going to promote lieutenants that he knew wouldn't spill the beans as they had their own skeletons.

There's nowhere near the same level of embedded corruption in the FG party, individuals yes. But, that's the same for nearly every party worldwide.

Arthur Beesley · 04-05-2014 9:17am

Ming Wallace, Mick Flanagan and the other independents are the answer.

Phoebas · 04-05-2014 9:19am

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Ming Wallace, Mick Flanagan and the other independents are the answer.

A tax evader is the answer to corruption?

Santa Cruz · 04-05-2014 9:26am

smcgiff wrote: »

FF had utterly corrupt leadership over a long period of time. As the leader was corrupt he was only going to promote lieutenants that he knew wouldn't spill the beans as they had their own skeletons.

There's nowhere near the same level of embedded corruption in the FG party, individuals yes. But, that's the same for nearly every party worldwide.

FF had skeletons in the cupboard. SF preferred to bury them in unmarked graves. FG had their friends in AIB write off Fitzgeralds debts and their man Flannery had his head well in the Rehab trough. Labours leadership were formerly Workers Party who had their own way of solving money shortages by setting up a money printing operation. All the parties had their own little rackets going on.

Santa Cruz · 04-05-2014 9:27am

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Ming Wallace, Mick Flanagan and the other independents are the answer.

They are the answer if the question is "Are you ****ing mad?"

04-05-2014 9:31am

For me, I have lost all credibility in all of Irish Politics.

alastair · 04-05-2014 9:43am

Santa Cruz wrote: »

FG had their friends in AIB write off Fitzgeralds debts.

FG didn't have AIB do any such thing. Fitzgerald paid off everything he could, and AIB wrote off the remaining debt on the basis of Fiztgerald's inability to pay any more - he was retired at that point. FG were oblivious to his issues, because Fitzgerald kept that side of things to himself. It probably helped that he was high profile, and had saved AIB's bacon years before by bailing out ICI - a subsidiary of AIB. But there's nothing to suggest FG lobbying played any role in the banks decision to write off the remainder of Fitzgerald's loan after he had given them everything he had.

Having said that - there's many other things in FG to get disillusioned by.

Arthur Beesley · 04-05-2014 10:04am

Phoebas wrote: »

A tax evader is the answer to corruption?

Santa Cruz wrote: »

They are the answer if the question is "Are you ****ing mad?"

Sorry, I assumed my mixing up of the names would show I was being sarcastic. :eek:

Satriale · 04-05-2014 10:16am

I notice the default Tag is finally appropriate to thread...

smcgiff · 04-05-2014 10:35am

NoDrama wrote: »

For me, I have lost all credibility in all of Irish Politics.

Why so harsh on yourself ?

golfball37 · 08-05-2014 9:20am

A man who has been found by Tribunal to have corrupted the process and profited from the awarding of the second mobile phone license has been welcomed by FG at every turn.

They even gave his company the contract to install the Water meters.

Anything they say about FF is just bluster. They are every bit as bad the only difernce between them is they didn't have the levers of power throughout history for long enough to bulid up the power base of corruption FF had in place.

If you look at the disgraceful planning decisons of the last 15 years you'll find there were more FG majority councils making the decisions that led to the building of unwated Ghost estates and apartments than FF ones.

Two cheeks of the same ar*e.

Phoebas · 08-05-2014 9:32am

Are the FG party now handing out state contracts?

joeguevara · 08-05-2014 9:36am

glued wrote: »

But they seem to have suffered on their own. We know about Olivia Mitchell who received £500 pounds from Frank Dunlop, she's somehow managed to retain her seat despite the findings of the Mahon Tribunal. She would probably be on the front bench had she not supported Richard Bruton's attempted coup of Enda Kenny in 2010. Michael Lowry (former FG) unbelievably remains extremely popular in Tipperary.

Are you from Tipperary? Why do you think it is unbelievable that he remains popular. Are you aware of the work he does for his constituency?

Skrynesaver · 08-05-2014 10:04am

golfball37 wrote: »

A man who has been found by Tribunal to have corrupted the process and profited from the awarding of the second mobile phone license has been welcomed by FG at every turn.

They even gave his company the contract to install the Water meters.

Anything they say about FF is just bluster. They are every bit as bad the only difernce between them is they didn't have the levers of power throughout history for long enough to bulid up the power base of corruption FF had in place.

If you look at the disgraceful planning decisons of the last 15 years you'll find there were more FG majority councils making the decisions that led to the building of unwated Ghost estates and apartments than FF ones.

Two cheeks of the same ar*e.

Unfortunately the current minister for the environment's first act was to abolish the investigation into the planning decisions in Carlow and Meath...

flutered · 08-05-2014 10:09am

alastair wrote: »

FG didn't have AIB do any such thing. Fitzgerald paid off everything he could, and AIB wrote off the remaining debt on the basis of Fiztgerald's inability to pay any more - he was retired at that point. FG were oblivious to his issues, because Fitzgerald kept that side of things to himself. It probably helped that he was high profile, and had saved AIB's bacon years before by bailing out ICI - a subsidiary of AIB. But there's nothing to suggest FG lobbying played any role in the banks decision to write off the remainder of Fitzgerald's loan after he had given them everything he had.

Having said that - there's many other things in FG to get disillusioned by.

sold his house to his auctioneer son mark, how convenient.

flutered · 08-05-2014 10:15am

golfball37 wrote: »

A man who has been found by Tribunal to have corrupted the process and profited from the awarding of the second mobile phone license has been welcomed by FG at every turn.

They even gave his company the contract to install the Water meters.

Anything they say about FF is just bluster. They are every bit as bad the only difernce between them is they didn't have the levers of power throughout history for long enough to bulid up the power base of corruption FF had in place.

If you look at the disgraceful planning decisons of the last 15 years you'll find there were more FG majority councils making the decisions that led to the building of unwated Ghost estates and apartments than FF ones.

Two cheeks of the same ar*e.

you forgot to say that as soon as topaz was bought by their rich uncle dinney, for a knockdown price, it topaz won the contract to supply the goverment agencys with fuel, then gave a directorship to our clown, remember him, the porter swilling rebel song singing bloke who laid out the red carper for the imf.

glued · 08-05-2014 2:46pm

joeguevara wrote: »

Are you from Tipperary? Why do you think it is unbelievable that he remains popular. Are you aware of the work he does for his constituency?

I'm not fully aware of the work he does but that doesn't excuse the fact that he has a very chequered past. I find it quite disturbing that he gets returned time and time again despite the findings of the Moriarty tribunal. A man who's company owed €1.2M to the Revenue after an audit and who personally owed €200,000 from underpaid taxes. He's a tax evader. He also abused his power to help Denis O'Brien secure a mobile phone licence.

YES I find it unbelievable that the people of Thurles and Tipperary North continue to return Mr. Lowry time and time again.

_Kaiser_ · 08-05-2014 3:25pm

FG (and LAB) have proven themselves every bit as bad as their predecessors.

You only need to have followed the Shatter/AGS affair to see that (and it's not done yet by the look of it - indeed, my gut tells me it's only the tip of the iceberg).

Kenny and Co were elected on a platform of change, reform and a new way of doing things.. instead we got the same "business as usual" while our "leader" stood in Europe like the good boy and told everyone we all went mad in the Good Times, even getting a European of the Year award for his efforts.

Instead of following through on their platform they instead blamed FF for everything and indeed continue to do so 3 years later! Yes FF/Greens ruined the country, but FG and LAB sealed the deal and ensured that our kids will still be paying for it long after we're dead and buried.

Add in the condescending arrogance of Kenny appearing on TV to lecture us like the schoolkids he started with, Reilly's strokes with the placement of the primary care centres, Hogan's never-ending antics, and of course Alan Shatter and FG/LAB have actually managed to be WORSE than their predecessors - which is no small achievement!

Of course we'll have our day in 2016 but I fully expect that Kenny and the rest of the current leadership won't be there to see it. They'll be off to Europe or retired on full pensions like those that went before them while the electorate struggles with where to go next. I don't know if anyone here watched the "People's Debate" on TV3 last night but if THAT is the quality of the opposition/alternatives, then it's no wonder that the mainstream parties get away with the seemingly never-ending stream of corruption, scandal and incompetence.

But to answer the title of the OP, FG lost all credibility the day after they were elected IMO.

sarumite · 08-05-2014 3:40pm

glued wrote: »

I'd say that most of the people in this nation know about the seedy underbelly of Fianna Fail's corruption and abuse of power during their time in Government. The acts of Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern, Liam Lawlor, Padriag Flynn, Charlie Haughey, Frank Dunlop etc... have all been, rightfully, tarnished as corrupt political figues who disgraced their position of power.

But they seem to have suffered on their own. We know about Olivia Mitchell who received £500 pounds from Frank Dunlop, she's somehow managed to retain her seat despite the findings of the Mahon Tribunal. She would probably be on the front bench had she not supported Richard Bruton's attempted coup of Enda Kenny in 2010. Michael Lowry (former FG) unbelievably remains extremely popular in Tipperary.

Liam Cosgrove Jr. is as bad as the Fianna Fail corrupt. He's of the same ilk.
My point is that Fianna Fail have deservedly suffered as a result of these exposures but Fine Gael have appeared to come out unscathed. People seem to have forgotten that in 2001 Fine Gael had to settle a huge bill for avoiding tax. People have forgotten about Garret FitzGerald's own corruption and his abuse of power.

I don't think I can say that had Fine Gael of been in power they would of been equally as corrupt but it's a moot point as that question cannot be answered. But they weren't given the same opportunity as Fianna Fail. Do you think that it's fair that Fianna Fail are the only ones that are isolated as corrupt?

I think the OP is struggling to make a genuine case on the evidence presented. As example, FG threw Lowry out of the party so I am not really sure why his continued popularity is mentioned in the OP. As regards Cosgrove, you seem to be conflating 'bad' with corrupt. This leaves the 500quid Mitchell took.The argument seems to rest on the "moot point" of they have the potential to be as corrupt as FF but haven't so far.

So to answer your question, I think it is completely fair that FF are isolated as corrupt. If FG are given the opportunity to be corrupt and are found to be so, then it will be fair to isolate them as well.

tipptom · 08-05-2014 4:04pm

sarumite wrote: »

I think the OP is struggling to make a genuine case on the evidence presented. As example, FG threw Lowry out of the party so I am not really sure why his continued popularity is mentioned in the OP. As regards Cosgrove, you seem to be conflating 'bad' with corrupt. This leaves the 500quid Mitchell took.The argument seems to rest on the "moot point" of they have the potential to be as corrupt as FF but haven't so far.

So to answer your question, I think it is completely fair that FF are isolated as corrupt. If FG are given the opportunity to be corrupt and are found to be so, then it will be fair to isolate them as well.

Is that an application form I see In your pocket Deputy Lowry,haw haw haw.

joeguevara · 08-05-2014 5:20pm

glued wrote: »

I'm not fully aware of the work he does but that doesn't excuse the fact that he has a very chequered past. I find it quite disturbing that he gets returned time and time again despite the findings of the Moriarty tribunal. A man who's company owed €1.2M to the Revenue after an audit and who personally owed €200,000 from underpaid taxes. He's a tax evader. He also abused his power to help Denis O'Brien secure a mobile phone licence.

YES I find it unbelievable that the people of Thurles and Tipperary North continue to return Mr. Lowry time and time again.

He is popular because he is one of the only politicians in Tipp that actually gets work done. They continue to return him because they benefit from him being there. People like outcomes that benefit themselves and the surrounding areas. Unless you are from there you will never know.

[Jackass] · 08-05-2014 5:28pm

In Irish politics there's only two parties worth voting for really... one inherently corrupt to its core and wholly incompetent, the other, just wholly incompetent. Take your pick, but honestly I don't really think it matters.

sparkling sea · 08-05-2014 5:44pm

Its all very well for people to complain about corruption but it may be very difficult for someone who has suffered at the hands of a government party to fight the might of the party and Irish senior civil service.

Say there is a possibility you have been scape goated by a state body and do you fight the wealth of that body and the that dept

Say you are an agency worker, working through an agency for the HSE. An incident happens which you are not involved with but you are easy pickings so an attempt is made to scape goat you. Well what happens, you complain, you get nowhere, you complain to the Minister, they refer it back to the HSE, they HSE use the dubious reason to explain the problem to the Minister. You fight and fight and fight your case.

3 years down the road you finally receive an apology but at this stage you can know longer take a case against the state body, even if you could you can't afford to fight the best legal companies in country, the likes of Arthur Cox which the likes of the HSE can afford to employ. Your reputation has been damaged, you can't get work in your field, by now your peers have 3 years more experience than you.

How do you fight a corrupt government when you haven't won the Euromillions and they act like they have ?? Its almost impossible and you can't win ever because there is always a price to pay, they hold all the cards. Even if in the end they pay you off and you get your apology, they will never employ you again - you will always lose one way or another.

tipptom · 09-05-2014 5:40pm

joeguevara wrote: »

He is popular because he is one of the only politicians in Tipp that actually gets work done. They continue to return him because they benefit from him being there. People like outcomes that benefit themselves and the surrounding areas. Unless you are from there you will never know.

But isn't that just admitting to the worst type of cute hoorism that this country has ever seen,and god knows there has been a lot of it.
I know some people who are massive supporters of Michael Lowry and at the same time would laugh at how ridiculous it was that the people of Mayo could vote back in P Flynn and Beverly Flynn time and time again.

I wonder if the Lowry supporters in noth Tipperary were asked to club together and pay back the state the money that the other tendering consortiums are rightly suing the state for, would that alter their view of Michael Lowry?,hardworking or not.

Fine Gael's credibility

Comments