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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #5852
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gurramok wrote: »
    Post number?

    5840, and the many others that claim equity = wealth. Do you believe equity = wealth?


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    #5853
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    demanufactured wrote: »
    This is extraordinary but it appears from the response to a Dail question on 13 March that government Ministers don't have to pay the Household Tax. Here is the official Dail record of the response to a question about exemptions

    The Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011 provides for a number of exemptions and waivers from payment of the household charge. The exemptions from payment of the household charge are -
    ...
    · Residential property owned by a Minister of the Government, a housing authority or the Health Service Executive,

    See http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/03/13/00247.asp for the full response

    Once again - they pay the charge on their homes same as the rest, but they don't on residential properties vested to them in their departments. it's not their gaffs they're referring to.


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    #5854
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    5840, and the many others that claim equity = wealth. Do you believe equity = wealth?

    Heh. If equity isn't wealth, what exactly is it?


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    #5855
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Well some of your associates believe taxing the family home is taxing wealth.


    I'd be more worried about some of the people on the 'no' side if I were you, some of them sound seriously deranged.


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    #5856
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    dvpower wrote: »
    TV licence.
    .

    Here is a breakdown

    RTE
    pat kenny
    tubridy
    ....
    .
    .
    .


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    #5857
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    black francis wrote: »
    I'd be more worried about some of the people on the 'no' side if I were you, some of them sound seriously deranged.

    Are you worried about them?


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    #5858
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    5840, and the many others that claim equity = wealth. Do you believe equity = wealth?

    Yes, its an asset and form of wealth. Council tenants don't have assets hence exempt from the charge. This form of wealth is not equal to highly taxing someone in direct taxes just because they are successful in their jobs.


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    #5859
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Are you worried about them?


    Not as long as they remain on the margins of society.

    I'm only worried that otherwise sensible people will vote for these lunatics or their ilk to register their frustrations with our current predicament.


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    #5860
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,577 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    black francis wrote: »
    What do you think would happen exactly after we burn the bondholders?

    I suppose the people who are lending us the money to fund the day to day running of the state would just shrug their shoulders and say, 'fair enough'.

    People like you don't have a clue about the logical consequences for this country for the course of action you outline.

    A collapse in the bailout which you so fervently wish for will make the household charge look like the Teddy Bears picnic.

    The only people who will benefit in such a scenario is the loony left (most of whom seem to have joined in the anti-property tax cheerleading in the last few days), who sniff the opportunity to tap into people's disaffection and make a grab for power.

    Gold help us if they get it.

    So then. What have we got ? Two sides of power-hungry politicians grappling in the centre for the right to drive our bus headlong over the same cliff.
    The crowd you look up to are doing exactly the same as the loony left as you call them. They are just as much in the wrong. They are NOT representing the people of the country because they are putting the Europeans before their own with their insistency in sticking to a too severe type of austerity. They never even requested a write-down of our debts or a longer period with less austerity in which to repay them. Their current method will only drive a wedge further between the politicians and their people and will not help our plight one iota.
    They should re-negotiate the loans and keep their citizens informed. There is a better way.


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    #5861
    mconigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Completely irrelevant to the point I'm making.
    Last year we voted to destroy FF and replace it with parties who would "burn the bondholders".
    Instead we got FF policy as if they had been re-elected.
    That is NOT democracy; we get another chance in 4 years when the exact same thing could happen again. That is NOT democracy.



    It is not rubbish - what I outlined above is a simple fact. We were voting on an existential issue and the political establishment ignored the electorate. Democracy in the EU is in crisis. You can ignore the facts - but that won't make them go away; nor will it remove the need to call those who have usurped democracy to serious account.

    After the bail-out collapses most likely - thus the sooner it comes the better for both economic recovery and for democracy. :cool:

    If something needs to be "banished" it is denial of the death of democracy in Ireland and other parts of Western Europe.

    My point is that democracy caused it in the first place. Hence "turkeys voting for Christmas". People chose this path democratically.

    Just because you don't agree with a law doesn't make in undemocratic.

    Like I've said I'm opposed to the charge. Probably based on different opinions to a lot here but I still know that it is democratic.
    demanufactured wrote: »
    This is extraordinary but it appears from the response to a Dail question on 13 March that government Ministers don't have to pay the Household Tax. Here is the official Dail record of the response to a question about exemptions

    The Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011 provides for a number of exemptions and waivers from payment of the household charge. The exemptions from payment of the household charge are -
    ...
    · Residential property owned by a Minister of the Government, a housing authority or the Health Service Executive,

    See http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/03/13/00247.asp for the full response

    It's misinformed posts like this that are going to hamper the no campaign. I'd safely bet that you know fine well that this is not the case however you still posting in order to rile people up. That's no different to the scaremongering from the other side.


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    #5862
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    Heh. If equity isn't wealth, what exactly is it?

    Well, lets pretend that it is wealth. There is already a tax in place that i am liable for, should i sell. So taxing in case i ever sell, and again when i do?

    So what they are doing is, taking people who go to the bother of owning their own home, in case they dont want to own their own home.



    Would you be happy for them to tax your savings too? Honest answer.

    You save 30k in the bank, you would be happy for them to take 6k from that if you take it out of the bank??? As well as taxing you each year in case you might take it out, but dont?


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    #5863
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    tayto lover wrote: »
    So then. What have we got ? Two sides of power-hungry politicians grappling in the centre for the right to drive our bus headlong over the same cliff.
    The crowd you look up to are doing exactly the same as the loony left as you call them. They are just as much in the wrong. They are NOT representing the people of the country because they are putting the Europeans before their own with their insistency in sticking to a too severe type of austerity. They never even requested a write-down of our debts or a longer period with less austerity in which to repay them. Their current method will only drive a wedge further between the politicians and their people and will not help our plight one iota.
    They should re-negotiate the loans and keep their citizens informed. There is a better way.


    Yes, we're in such a strong position to re-negotiate our loans - especially considering the people we're borrowing from are the same people dictating that we pay back all the unsecured bank debt.

    Maybe it would be a good idea to try to balance our budget so we could re-negotiate from a position of strength?

    Oh wait, I forgot, we don't want to pay any more taxes. Let's give 2 fingers to the bankers ...blah, blah, blah.....


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    #5864
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    tayto lover wrote: »
    . They never even requested a write-down of our debts or a longer period with less austerity in which to repay them.

    They should re-negotiate the loans and keep their citizens informed. There is a better way.

    Explanation here as to why a write down of the debts Greek style would make things worse. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056573353


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    #5865
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gurramok wrote: »
    Yes, its an asset and form of wealth. Council tenants don't have assets hence exempt from the charge. This form of wealth is not equal to highly taxing someone in direct taxes just because they are successful in their jobs.

    O right, tax one form of wealth, but not the other. I see.


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    #5866
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Well, lets pretend that it is wealth. There is already a tax in place that i am liable for, should i sell. So taxing in case i ever sell, and again when i do?

    So what they are doing is, taking people who go to the bother of owning their own home, in case they dont want to own their own home.



    Would you be happy for them to tax your savings too? Honest answer.

    You save 30k in the bank, you would be happy for them to take 6k from that if you take it out of the bank??? As well as taxing you each year in case you might take it out, but dont?

    Let's not pretend. Equity is wealth.

    As to taxation at more than one point? It's not exactly unknown now, is it? Buy a car and pay VAT on it, pay motor tax on it, pay a licence fee to drive it, pay NCT fees to keep it on the road. Most home owners won't be liable for CGT anyway.


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    #5867
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,577 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    black francis wrote: »
    Yes, we're in such a strong position to re-negotiate our loans - especially considering the people we're borrowing from are the same people dictating that we pay back all the unsecured bank debt.

    Maybe it would be a good idea to try to balance our budget so we could re-negotiate from a position of strength?

    Oh wait, I forgot, we don't want to pay any more taxes. Let's give 2 fingers to the bankers ...blah, blah, blah.....

    Well Enda and his cronies gave two fingers to every Irish citizen already. Even when in opposition as he and his F.G. party sat on their hands and gave the most corrupt Govt of all time free rein with the country's finances. Then to replace them on lies and false promises I suppose maybe you are right with the blah blah blah. We are truly fcuked then BUT one thing certain is that people have had enough and will not throw good money after bad and refuse to pay the Household Tax. You can't fool all of the people all of the time.


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    #5868
    monkeypants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭monkeypants


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Owner buys house 200k.

    They pay off 30k in repayments.

    Equity 30k asuming house is at least equal to original price (optomistic)

    Sell house. Tax 6k. Owner gets 24k

    But they paid in 30k of their own money.

    If they saved 30k in an account, they pay nothing to withdraw it.
    Which tax is this? If it's Capital Gains, I'm fairly sure that the family home or principle private residence is exempt. Besides, it's a tax on gains; the example you give doesn't contain one.


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    #5869
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    demanufactured wrote: »
    This is extraordinary but it appears from the response to a Dail question on 13 March that government Ministers don't have to pay the Household Tax. Here is the official Dail record of the response to a question about exemptions

    The Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011 provides for a number of exemptions and waivers from payment of the household charge. The exemptions from payment of the household charge are -
    ...
    · Residential property owned by a Minister of the Government, a housing authority or the Health Service Executive,

    See http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/03/13/00247.asp for the full response
    Wake up, will you man:mad:


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    #5870
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    O right, tax one form of wealth, but not the other. I see.

    Does property contribute to a succeeding economy bettering peoples lives? No, it doesn't. Its an asset that just sits there:)
    An entrepreneur actually helps create jobs, making lives better financially for employees.


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    #5871
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Well Enda and his cronies gave two fingers to every Irish citizen already. Even when in opposition as he and his F.G. party sat on their hands and gave the most corrupt Govt of all time free rein with the country's finances. Then to replace them on lies and false promises I suppose maybe you are right with the blah blah blah. We are truly fcuked then BUT one thing certain is that people have had enough and will not throw good money after bad and refuse to pay the Household Tax. You can't fool all of the people all of the time.


    Heavy on the rhetoric.

    Light on the alternative proposals.

    You could become the poster boy for the 'no' side.


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    #5872
    demanufactured
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    dvpower wrote: »
    Wake up, will you man:mad:

    Smaell of Enda off you.


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    #5873
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    Let's not pretend. Equity is wealth.

    So someone with equity of €1000 is wealthy?

    And equity is not wealth. Equity can have a negative value.
    As to taxation at more than one point? It's not exactly unknown now, is it? Buy a car and pay VAT on it, pay motor tax on it, pay a licence fee to drive it, pay NCT fees to keep it on the road. Most home owners won't be liable for CGT anyway.

    But this is about unfair taxation. The taxation system of one item, such as a car, is hardly an arguement to introduce another, unfair and unjust tax.

    I asked would you be happy to pay 6k out of your 30k savings on withdrawl, and €500 a year in case you dont withdraw. Simple question.
    After all, that 30k savings is wealth in your book.

    Typical political answer though.


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    #5874
    monkeypants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭monkeypants


    black francis wrote: »
    Maybe it would be a good idea to try to balance our budget so we could re-negotiate from a position of strength?

    Oh wait, I forgot, we don't want to pay any more taxes. Let's give 2 fingers to the bankers ...blah, blah, blah.....
    I agree with your first sentence and I'm astounded that we're 4+ years into this and it still hasn't been done. However, I would rather see spending cuts than more taxes. Every cent more that I spend on taxes is a cent that I don't spend anywhere else in the economy and I'm also putting some cents aside, not for a holiday, but for the next tax/charge that comes along. Bar food, my home, utilities and my commute, I don't spend money anywhere else now. That can't be good for the economy, but it's all I can do in good conscience.


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    #5875
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    monkeypants wrote: »
    Which tax is this? If it's Capital Gains, I'm fairly sure that the family home or principle private residence is exempt. Besides, it's a tax on gains; the example you give doesn't contain one.

    All the more unfair then, to be taxed on it when you dont sell it. Taxed on an equity which is smaller than the amount put in.


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    #5876
    skintiam
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭skintiam


    alastair wrote: »
    What makes this particular tax any more unfair or unjust than, say, motor tax?

    The fact that if you are against paying motor tax then you have the choice not to buy a car to avoid it, if you currently have a mortgage or own the house you live in you didn't get that choice. I would have thought twice about buying if there was a property tax in place before I did.


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    #5877
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    So someone with equity of €1000 is wealthy?

    And equity is not wealth. Equity can have a negative value.



    But this is about unfair taxation. The taxation system of one item, such as a car, is hardly an arguement to introduce another, unfair and unjust tax.

    I asked would you be happy to pay 6k out of your 30k savings on withdrawl, and €500 a year in case you dont withdraw. Simple question.
    After all, that 30k savings is wealth in your book.

    Typical political answer though.

    I guess we'll just gloss over the fact that CGT is red herring for most?
    So - to be pedantic - positive equity (what we're talking about) is wealth. Sausages are a tasty treat, negative sausages not so much.

    The various car taxes are not unfair - and nor is property tax. Just saying its unfair isn't really a compelling argument.


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    #5878
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gurramok wrote: »
    Does property contribute to a succeeding economy bettering peoples lives? No, it doesn't. Its an asset that just sits there:) .

    Yes it just sits there, so penalise the owner.


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    #5879
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    skintiam wrote: »
    The fact that if you are against paying motor tax then you have the choice not to buy a car to avoid it, if you currently have a mortgage or own the house you live in you didn't get that choice. I would have thought twice about buying if there was a property tax in place before I did.

    Solution - sell and rent. Is that not a choice? Or just pay your property tax like everyone around the world does?


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    #5880
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Yes it just sits there, so penalise the owner.

    In exactly the same way you 'penalise' the car owner, wage earner, etc, etc. it's a tax.


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    #5881
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    skintiam wrote: »
    The fact that if you are against paying motor tax then you have the choice not to buy a car to avoid it, if you currently have a mortgage or own the house you live in you didn't get that choice. I would have thought twice about buying if there was a property tax in place before I did.


    Well, you must be in a fairly small minority given the 10's of thousands that people willingly handed over to the govt in stamp duty when they bought - were you one of these people I wonder?


This discussion has been closed.
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