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How Israel might strike at Iran (BBC Analysis)

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  • 27-02-2012 2:47pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17115643




    By Jonathan Marcus BBC Diplomatic Correspondent

    _58708669_58631993.jpgAn Israeli attack would have to cope with a variety of problems

    Iran nuclear crisis
    For all the myriad challenges facing Israel over the past decade it is the potential threat from a nuclear-armed Iran that has pre-occupied the country's military planners.
    It is this that in large part has guided the development of the Israeli Air Force (IAF) over recent years.
    The IAF has purchased 125 advanced F-15I and F-16I warplanes, equipped with Israeli avionics and additional fuel tanks - tailor-made for long-range strike missions.
    In addition, Israel has bought specialised bunker-busting munitions; developed large, long-endurance, unmanned aircraft; and much of its training has focused on long-range missions.
    Israel has a track-record of pre-emptive strikes against nuclear targets in the region.

    _58710880_51349104.jpg
    Israel has a track-record of pre-emptive strikes against nuclear targets

    In June 1981, Israeli jets bombed the Osirak reactor near the Iraqi capital, Baghdad.
    More recently, in September 2007, Israeli warplanes attacked a facility in Syria that Israel, the US and many experts believed was a nuclear reactor under construction.

    However, a potential strike against Iran would be nothing like the attacks in Iraq and Syria.

    These were both against single targets, located above ground, and came literally out of the blue.
    An Israeli attempt to severely damage Iran's nuclear programme would have to cope with a variety of problems, including range, the multiplicity of targets, and the nature of those targets.
    Many of these problems are daunting in themselves, but when put together, they only compound the difficulties facing Israeli military planners.

    How to get there?

    For a start it is a very long way from Israel to Iran. As a rough estimate many of the potential targets are some 1,500km (930 miles) to 1,800km (1,120 miles) from Israeli bases. Israeli warplanes have to get to Iran and, equally important, get back.
    At least three routes are possible.
    · There is the northern one where Israeli jets would fly north and then east along the borders between Turkey and Syria, and then Turkey and Iraq
    · The central, more likely route would take Israeli warplanes over Iraq. With the US military gone, the Iraqi authorities are far less able to monitor and control their air space, effectively opening a door to an Israeli incursion
    · The third, southern route would take Israeli jets over Saudi air space. Would the Saudis turn a blind eye to such a move given their own concerns about Iran's nuclear programme? Could this route be used by Israeli aircraft on the return leg of their journey? We just do not know
    _58708668_israel_iran_map_624.jpg

    What we do know, given the range, is that Israeli aircraft will have to be topped up with fuel en route.
    Douglas Barrie, senior fellow for military aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) in London, says that "air-to-air refuelling will be critical".

    _58710883_58632381.jpg
    Israel is believed to have between eight to 10 large tankers based on the Boeing 707 airframe

    "Israeli aircraft," he says, "need not just to get in and out of Iranian air space; they need to have enough fuel to provide time over their targets and they need sufficient fuel to cover any contingencies that might arise during the mission."
    The initial tanking, Mr Barrie says, might be done over the Mediterranean or even in Israeli airspace. "One option," he notes, "would be to take off with a full bomb load and drop tanks containing additional fuel; to climb to cruising altitude and then at this point to replenish their tanks, before setting course for their targets in Iran."
    Israel is believed to have between eight to 10 large tankers based on the commercial Boeing 707 airframe, but experts believe that tanking capacity will prove one of the limiting factors in the scope of any operation.

    What targets to hit?

    The problems of range, the nature of some of the targets, and the availability of tanker aircraft will determine the nature and scope of any Israeli operation.

    Iran nuclear sites
    _58710888_108057995.jpg
    Natanz - Uranium enrichment plant
    Fordo, near Qom - Uranium enrichment plant
    Arak (pictured) - Heavy water plant
    Isfahan - Uranium conversion plant
    Parchin - Military site

    Douglas Barrie, of the IISS, says that

    "Israeli planners will be looking for where they can do most damage with the limited number of platforms at their disposal".

    "They'll be asking where the main choke points are in the Iranian programme. Clearly, striking enrichment facilities makes a lot of sense from a military point of view," he adds.
    So the uranium enrichment facilities at Natanz, south of Tehran, and Fordo, near the holy city of Qom, would almost certainly be prominent on the target list.
    The heavy-water production plant and heavy-water reactor under construction at Arak, in the west, might also figure, as would the uranium conversion facility at Isfahan.

    It is unclear whether Israel would have the capacity to strike a range of other targets associated with Iran's missile programmes and explosives testing.

    But this target list raises another set of problems. The enrichment facilities at Natanz are underground and the new plant at Fordo is buried deeply into the side of a mountain.

    Can Israel destroy buried targets?

    For an attack like this, says Douglas Barrie, you need good intelligence information. "You need to know", he says, "about the geography of the target site; its geology; the nature of the earth; and the details of the design and construction of any buried reinforced concrete chambers."
    "You can assume," he asserts, "that the Americans and the Israelis have been watching these sites closely over time."

    “The target would have to be attacked from relatively close range, meaning any attacking force will have to fight its way in and out of heavily-contested airspace”
    To reach buried targets you need special kinds of munitions. Deeply-buried facilities are not exclusive to the Middle East. There is a kind of race between the diggers and the weapons designers and it is one where the Americans have considerable experience.

    The main weapon in Israel's arsenal is the US-supplied GBU-28. This is a 5,000lb (2,268kg) laser-guided weapon with a special penetrating warhead. For an assessment of its capabilities I turned to Robert Hewson, the editor of IHS Jane's Air-Launched Weapons.

    "The GBU-28," he told me, "is the largest penetrating weapon available for a tactical aircraft and, since it was first used by the US in 1991, it has been improved with better warheads and more accurate guidance."

    "However, Israel's use of this weapon would be hindered by several key operational factors. Realistically, the F-15I - the only delivery platform - can carry only one bomb, so a sizeable attack force would be required - demanding tanker and other support assets that Israel does not have in large numbers."

    "The target would have to be attacked from relatively close range, meaning any attacking force will have to fight its way in and out of heavily-contested airspace."

    Furthermore, he says that
    "very accurate targeting data is required to use a weapon like GBU-28 to best effect".

    "The potential for success of a GBU-28 attack is not determined by the 'book' performance of the weapon alone."

    Of course, the great unknown question is how capable these weapons would be against buried Iranian enrichment facilities at Natanz and Fordo.

    Israel's 'Bunker Buster' bomb
    _58711200_israel_iran_buster_bunker_no_title_464x342.gif
    1. The missiles are carried by Israeli F-15Is - but only one per aircraft, which would mean a large attack force for multiple attempts on numerous targets
    2. Missile is released almost vertically over the target, and guided by lasers
    3. The missiles can penetrate up to 6m of concrete or about 30.5m of earth before detonating the 4,400lb warhead


    Mr Hewson says that the GBU-28 is "effective against any hardened or deeply buried target - up to a point".
    "For a weapon like the GBU-28, velocity and angle of impact determine the penetrating effect, so the ideal drop is made from high altitude at maximum speed and hits the target at a near vertical angle," he explains.
    "This is less easy to do against a cave or mountainside, so the weapon will be less effective - but still more effective than pretty much any other available munitions."
    Indeed, as Douglas Barrie notes, one weapon might be insufficient.
    "You could", he says, "attempt to 'dig your way in' using several weapons on the same impact area to try to get through the soil, rock and concrete. Or you could try to block access to the facility by destroying tunnel entrances.
    "In addition," he says, "all of these facilities are power hungry, so you could attempt to destroy power supplies and any buried cabling.
    "The aim would be to present the Iranians with a compound problem of blocked entrances, no power and collapsed underground chambers."

    Does Israel have other military options?

    So far we have discussed only the known elements of Israel's capabilities, mainly US-supplied aircraft and munitions. But Israel has a hugely advanced aerospace and electronics industry of its own and this may well have produced systems relevant for an attack against Iran.

    _58711402_58632387.jpg
    The Eitan, the Israeli Air Force's latest generation of Unmanned Aerial Vehicle

    Douglas Barrie says that there is much about Israel's capabilities, especially its home-grown technology, that we do not know.
    "Israel's long-range Heron or Eitan drone could be used to gather an assessment of the damage done by any strikes, but perhaps could also be put to use helping to spoof air defences," he adds.
    "Indeed, this kind of deception or cyber-operation will likely be an integral part of the mission with the aim of blinding radars or generating a false picture of what was going on."

    What about Iran's air defences?

    Iran's air defences are largely Russian-supplied systems familiar to Israeli pilots, though Iran also deploys the US-built Hawk system dating back to the days of the Shah.
    Iran's defences
    _58711397_93436326.jpg


    Surface-to-air missiles - Hawk system (pictured)
    For high altitude targets - SA-5 or S-200
    For low level targets - Tor-M1/SA-15 Gauntlet
    Long-range systems - S-300
    Iranian Air Force - Russian-built Mig-29s, US-built F-14 Tomcats


    Some of its most capable defences are Russian SA-5 missiles intended to target high-altitude threats, while it also deploys the mobile Tor-M1/SA-15 Gauntlet system optimised to engage targets at lower level.
    Russia has consistently refused to supply Iran with the much more capable S-300 long-range system, though the Iranians claim to have procured some batteries elsewhere.
    Iran's surface-to-air missile force may be old but still represents a threat. Look at how much effort Nato and the US put into taking down Libya's similar vintage air defences last year.
    Israel will not have the time or the resources to embark upon this kind of protracted air campaign and thus the electronic element of any strike to suppress Iranian defences is likely to be as important as the actual dropping of weapons.

    Israel's small submarine force could potentially play a role here too. Douglas Barrie says that "there must be a reasonable assumption that Israel has an operational sea-launched cruise missile capability based upon their German-built Dolphin submarines".

    _58711394_58632692.jpg
    Israel's small submarine force could play a role

    "These could be used to go after older but capable SA-5 air defence sites and big search and surveillance radars."
    But, he notes: "Adding a naval dimension complicates the co-ordination of any attack."

    Iran's air force is seen by experts as being totally outclassed by its Israeli counterpart.

    It has a small number of US-built F-14 Tomcat fighters and a significant number of relatively more modern Russian-supplied MiG-29s.
    But the potential threat from Iranian aircraft again complicates Israeli planning and any air-to-air combat might place additional strains on the limited fuel supplies carried by the attacking aircraft.

    Would an Israeli strike succeed?

    Most experts agree that Israel could hit multiple targets in Iran and do considerable damage to its nuclear programme. They would, however, do much less damage than a full-scale US attack using all of the resources at Washington's disposal.

    " Even if successful, it would only delay Iran's nuclear programme”
    Douglas Barrie International Institute for Strategic Studies

    The Israelis would be operating at the very limits of their capabilities. "If they pulled it off," says Douglas Barrie, "it would be an impressive display of power projection against a difficult and dispersed set of targets."
    Only a small number of air forces in the world, he notes, could mount such an operation. But, Mr Barrie stresses: "Even if successful, it would only delay Iran's nuclear programme."

    It is a point echoed by IHS Jane's Robert Hewson.

    "Israel does not have the mass of forces and will not be given the operational freedom [by Iran] required to destroy Iran's nuclear complex," he says.
    "If you bury enough stuff deep enough, enough of it will survive. Any Israeli attack can only damage and possibly not even slow the Iranian effort.

    "The consequences of such an attack would be dire and global. It is impossible to see any up-side to this venture."

    That's a view shared for now by Israel's most important ally.

    Only a few days ago, the Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of staff, Gen Martin Dempsey, said that an Israeli attack would not be prudent.
    Such a strike, he said, "would be destabilising and would not achieve their long-term objectives".

    However Israel's calculus is very different. Knowing all their operational limitations, might they launch such an operation anyway?

    ___________________________________________________

    I reckon that's a decent article and a straight forward analysis by experts in the fields in question.

    In essence it clearly reflects the general opinion of experts, think tanks and serious pundits out there who are more interested in the practical realities and less so in the bull**** rhetoric and headline grabbing crap that’s out there.
    General Martin Dempsey (the head of the US military) spent a few days in Israel two weeks ago trying to convince the leadership and military establishment over there to cool it and get with the program of deter and containment that's already in play and he was then on GPS with Fareed Zakaria on CNN last Sunday and seemed confident he had achieved that. He basically said an Israeli attack would be feckin stupid and not achieve enough to be anything like worth it. In fact he seemed completely against the military option although he had to play the classic role of ‘I’m here at the behest of the commander in chief etc

    The fact is IF Iran is serious about getting to the bomb long term then that's what will happen. I personally don't think they are 100% committed to that and that this whole thing is a blown out of proportion power game which is simply about two things to Iran.

    1. The survival of its current theocratic revolutionary leadership structure.

    2. Influence in the Mid East during a period of sever reduction in US military footprint.


    It's only by chance that the militarily limiting factors in this equation are so severe and the whole world is damn lucky they are IMO.






Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    ...It's only by chance that the militarily limiting factors in this equation are so severe and the whole world is damn lucky they are IMO...

    that depends on which you think is worse - a small(ish) war in which Israel digs some holes in Irans nuclear programme, or the possiblity of a much larger war in which Israel and Iran exchange buckets of instant sunshine.

    politics is rarely a choice between good and bad, but between bad and worse.

    the BBC analysis is extremely dodgy - as an indicator of the incredibly poor nature of their defence reporting (on pretty much all defence issues, not just this one) they don't know the difference between a missile and a bomb, and that a GBU-28 does not have a 4,500lb warhead - as much as because its a bomb people don't use the term 'warhead', thats a term reserved for the explosive part of a missile, rocket or torpedo, as that the explosive content of a GBU-28 is about 600lb. that may look like semantics, but its not - its just basic stuff that tells you that their defence correspondant knows squat, and therefore isn't in a position to make judgements on your behalf about whats true, what isn't and whats missing.

    if your mechanic didn't know the difference between a deisel engine and a petrol engine, or between an injection system or a carborettor, or between an estate and a hatchback - would you trust his views?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Be like Nutella


    really don't want to get into a 300 post argument about semantics but basically the term warhead is regularly used on every single military site on the internet when it comes to JDAMS and bunker busting stuff of all kinds...etc etc so you're just blatantly wrong about that... and if you'd like me to quote 500 magazines and websites and article and authors and military experts here I will. The reason is that obviously in the case of GPS and/or laser sites bombs (I'd use 'bombs' personally) the directional fins and stabilisers basically fly the bomb down the 'tunnel' to the painted target which puts those munitions in a grey area between powered missiles and bombs that are dropped as they were old school with bomb sights etc..

    Also the term missile and bomb is interchangeably used in the article itself which clearly makes you're criticism pedantic in nature anyway.

    Also I can't find where that BBC journalist says the GBU-28 has 4500 lbs of warhead etc so I think possibly you're wrong there too but maybe not.

    Either way I'm sure you do know you're weapons... but that article doesn't contain many inaccuracies as you wrongly point out. The comments by the 'experts' in it are as I say by the 'experts' i.e. from Janes defence etc etc so if you know more than them then show me where they're wrong and tell me why. I think you possibly just launched in there all critical with no real basis or proof or evidence for your comments so.. yeah.. that's pretty much it.
    The likeness to the mechanic eh euphemism is not useful here... not similar at all. Your comments about BBC being not good at military stuff may be true but I wouldn't assume it based on just your opinion.. that would be an entirely different debate and would require some serious research but how and ever it's nothing to do with the actual thesis and content of this here article which I reckon having been forced to read it through yet again coz of this pedantic issue is pretty much accurate right through... if not... then enlighten me please with specifics... and remember the journalist is a diplomatic correspondent using experts opinions quotes having obviously asked them as he must have decided he himself didn't know the issues in depth nor would many tbh... so if you disagree with the actual experts opinions then please elaborate.

    I also don't think there's any value in the argument ' the BBC is crap at military stuff therefore ignore this article coz it must be cak '... in actuality the article isn't bad and the military stuff in it is accurate... whether or not you think the BBC is crap at mil stuff or not. I would say that it's more likely the BBC is 'better' at military stuff than any other news orgs in that it has more experience than most, more staff, more experts at hand etc etc... Obviously the best sources for mil stuff would be things like Janes defence etc but they're obviously not news orgs hence the BBC guy did the piece using mil expert opinions to factually support his article and give the specific weapon points some credence...which it did.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    On an aside, can people stop selecting color=black tags on their text; just allow theme-defaults. Those of us using the cloud theme for boards.ie have to highlight your text in order to read it ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    ... but that article doesn't contain many inaccuracies as you wrongly point out....

    err... yes it does.

    ''3. The missiles can penetrate up to 6m of concrete or about 30.5m of earth before detonating the 4,400lb warhead''

    unless your man thinks the USAF has found a way of detonating steel, then he's just a little bit wrong. he also doesn't know the difference between a bomb and a missile.

    shall we try again?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Be like Nutella


    The tactical limitation for Israel seems to be the platform of delivery of the bunker busters. They haven't got MOP loaded B-2a Spirits like the US so they're left strapping one GBU-28 to an F-15 which already has fuel problems over the 2000 mile round trip... for instance can the F-15 take two fuel bombs PLUS a 5000 lb GBU-28 to Busheyr and back? sounds unlikely


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Be like Nutella


    OS119 wrote: »
    err... yes it does.

    ''3. The missiles can penetrate up to 6m of concrete or about 30.5m of earth before detonating the 4,400lb warhead''

    unless your man thinks the USAF has found a way of detonating steel, then he's just a little bit wrong. he also doesn't know the difference between a bomb and a missile.

    shall we try again?


    Jaysis : ) right here we go then.

    Ok so he referred to the entire ordnance there by accident rather than the payload itself fair enough. who gives a **** that's obvious to you and me.

    Like I said the article wrongly in some instances uses the word missile as you say but in other cases uses the word bomb...again pedantics in this case because it isn't a classic bomb at all... its a glide weapons precision guided gps and/or laser guided super duper weapon .... can travel 6 miles into target and it sure as hell looks like a missile when you see pics of it etc... where are the loads of inaccuracies apart form these ones? which I except although they cause no issues and don't serve to confuse or misinform anyone reading the article for what it was written about.... mind you he still should have spotted them...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Be like Nutella


    OS119 wrote: »
    err... yes it does.

    ''3. The missiles can penetrate up to 6m of concrete or about 30.5m of earth before detonating the 4,400lb warhead''

    unless your man thinks the USAF has found a way of detonating steel, then he's just a little bit wrong. he also doesn't know the difference between a bomb and a missile.

    shall we try again?


    I don't unerstand what you mean by

    "unless your man thinks the USAF has found a way of detonating steel" bit


    anyway the warhead issue: right so you're saying this guy...actually all of them...don't know jack sh1t bout weapons etc... because they use the term warhead with a bomb. Right actually I would have sort of agreed with you (if we weren't annoyingly arguing pedantics)... I myself wouldn't use warhead...which is more for missiles obviously and seems to refer specifically to the front..the nose of a missile etc.. especially when we think of nukes etc... but in fact an awful lot of experts rgularly use the warhead term when speaking about GBU's bunker busters etc.. and now I get to waste some time finding loads of examples cheers : )

    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/jdam.htm

    jdam-mg25.gif


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Diameter_Bomb

    " Specifications
    • Warhead penetration: 3 feet of steel reinforced concrete "
    __________________________________

    It's the most common bomb in the world... and it IS the warhead on GBUs

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_82_bomb

    "
    The Mk 82 is the warhead for the GBU-12 laser-guided bombs and for the GBU-38 JDAM. "

    ______________________________

    http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app5/paveway-2.html

    " The GBU-10/B series covers Paveway I and Paveway II LGBs with warheads in the 2000 lb class. The following warheads are used in GBU-10/B series LGBs: "

    ______________________________

    http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=108

    " Features
    JDAM is a guided air-to-surface weapon that uses either the 2,000-pound BLU-109/MK 84, the 1,000-pound BLU-110/MK 83 or the 500-pound BLU-111/MK 82 warhead as the payload. "

    ______________________________

    could go on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    The tactical limitation for Israel seems to be the platform of delivery of the bunker busters. They haven't got MOP loaded B-2a Spirits like the US so they're left strapping one GBU-28 to an F-15 which already has fuel problems over the 2000 mile round trip... for instance can the F-15 take two fuel bombs PLUS a 5000 lb GBU-28 to Busheyr and back? sounds unlikely

    i'm pretty sure that an F-15I with conformal fuel tanks, two underwing fuel tanks, 4 AAM, a LANTIRN targetting pod and one GBU-28 could not do a 2000 mile round trip, though it almost certainly could if it topped off its tanks soon after after take off and dropped its wing tanks as soon as they were empty.

    i think its important to get over the GBU-28 as being the only weapon that matters - and the idea that only the 'I' strike versions of the Israeli's F-15's and F-16's matter in this regard. Israel has 50-odd 'non-strike' F-15's, and over 200 'non-strike' F-16's - all of which are wired for Air-to-Surface strike to some degree or other. destroying Irans power stations would be a good way to cripple the nuclear programme - none of those need repeated GBU-28 strikes to close them down.

    Israel also has a significant aircraft industry of its own, its therefore quite capable of producing the 'buddy refueling' equipment that allows one tactical fighter to AAR other tactical fighters. this could/would mean that the IAF's '8 tankers' could become 50 tankers in a morning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Be like Nutella


    Do you think that Israel therefore has no fuel issues because it could use other fighters to fuel after take off? Why do other analysts not raise this possiblility instantly? there must be some limiting factors... take more looking into.

    The question whether the GBU-28s are Israels only weapon capable of destroying or long term crippling the deeper sites is interesting.
    I would just say that there was a lot of fuss about the aquisition of them over the 2004-2009 period which points to the fact that they ARE in fact the only bombs capable of doing the job required. This would also be based on the fact that all other bunker busters up to that time such as were used on Saddam in Iraq 1 were proven to be less than effective and therefore not an ideal candidate for the Iran job. The other option of burrowing in with many many hits I think is not one that should be considered based on the main limiting factor of distance.

    If we even said Israel was capable of arming

    fifty F-15s
    with one GBU-28 and pod
    and that that would require at least the use of all 10 or so tankers....
    and that the limited strike option included 6 major hardened sites for which Israel does not have perfect intel on i.e. geo data, internal concrete structural data, location of softest penetration points etc..

    then the margin for error becomes small and the likelihood for error large.

    Nobody knows for sure what Israel is capable of... but there is a high likelihood that they are not capable of anything more than a limited strike including a small number of targets focusing mostly on hardened sites. In that context the experts are saying that they will maybe push Iran back a bit, at best, but will not stop Iran getting to the bomb if that's what they want. They probably don't have a similar option to the GBU-28 or anything like it otherwise they wouldn't have made such a major issue out of aquiring them.



    Guided Bomb Unit-28 (GBU-28)
    BLU-113 Penetrator



    Specifications

    Mission Offensive counter air, close air support, interdiction Targets Fixed hard
    penetration capability of over 20 feet of concrete
    penetration capability of over 100 feet of earth
    Class4,000 lb. Penetrator, Blast/FragmentationService
    Air Force Contractor Lockheed (BLU-113/B) National Forge (BLU-113A/B)
    Program status Production
    First capability 1991
    Weight (lbs.)4,414
    Length (in.)153 bomb body, 223
    overall Diameter (in.)14.5 bomb body
    Explosive 6471bs. TritonalFuzeFMU-143 Series
    Stabilizer Air Foil Group (Fins)
    Guidance method Laser (man-in-the-loop)
    Range Greater than 5 nautical miles
    Development cost Development cost is not applicable to this munition.
    Production cost $18.2 million
    Total cost $18.2 million
    Acquisition unit cost$145,600
    Production unit cost $145,600
    Quantity 125 plus additional
    production Platforms F-15E F-111F


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Do you think that Israel therefore has no fuel issues because it could use other fighters to fuel after take off? Why do other analysts not raise this possiblility instantly? there must be some limiting factors... take more looking into.

    there is a limiting factor - i've got sh1t for brains. neither the F-15 or F-16 is equipped with a Probe-type refuelling system so they can't do Probe/Drouge AAR.

    if they had F/A-18's (which they thought about buying) or any European type they'd be able to do it, but not with F-15's or F-16's.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Be like Nutella


    Ok so f-15/16s can't do IFR AND AAR during the same mission? They can deffo do AAR with the probe thing and all that I've seen it done in docs etc

    look either way there's a major distance/fuel/support issue coz the targets are 1000 miles out.... you just know that DARPA/Military companies and defence committees in Washington will use all these supported 'manned flight' limitations to push for multirole UCAVs over the next decade with the argument being if you don't have to come back etc..


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Be like Nutella


    they could do this in 1964.. pretty impressive

    800px-2_A3s_%26_an_A4_tanking.jpg

    AAR saves 40% of fuel...wow... never knew that. Takin off really sucks diesel


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Ok so f-15/16s can't do IFR AND AAR during the same mission? They can deffo do AAR with the probe thing and all that I've seen it done in docs etc...

    sorry, i wasn't clear - the way that F-15 and F-16's do AAR is with a big, 40ft fixed boom on a large tanker, the boom from the tanker slots into a hole on the fuselage of the F-16/15 and transfers lots of fuel very quickly. the F-15/16 use this method because they are USAF designs, and the USAF like the boom design because that kind of fuel transfer is needed for its bombers. everyone else uses probe/drogue because its more flexible - you can refuel three aircraft at a time from a large tanker, and small aircraft can refuel each other with buddy packs.

    thats the method thats in your picture - theres a picture somewhere of an RN Buccaneer refuelling a VC-10 using P/D. it probably gave the VC-10 about 30 seconds of fuel, but it shows the flexibility of the system.

    as an example, in the 1982 Falklands war, one of the original plans for the Black Buck raids was to have the missions flown by RAF Buccaneers from Assension Island - very fast, very low level, very accurate tactical bombers that can do the buddy refuelling trick. the problem in the end was not the fuel for an 8,000 mile round trip, but the engine lubricants for the flying hours - from recall, the Buccs could do about 8 or 9 hours, but after that they'd fall into the sea, regardless of how much fuel they had on board.

    based on that, if the Israeli's had gone for aircraft with Probe/Drogue, they wouldn't have this problem - and yes, mounting a decent sized strike package with only 8 tankers that can only refuel one aircraft at a time, and unlike your strike aircraft, can't really travel far into the strike route, is a problem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Be like Nutella


    Aerial Refueling
    The F-15E and F-16C refueling system is compatible with the refueling boom from KC-135A and KC-10 tankers.
    Some Future Options to Extend the Range of the F-15E:
    o An in flight refueling (IFR) probe could be incorporated into the F-15E to give the aircraft the capability to refuel from drogue configured tankers.
    o Studies have also taken place regarding Buddy Refueling between F-15Es that can be packaged in an external tank or CFT. This would be useful in an emergency situation when Strike Missions are in Egress from the target area.
    o Larger External Tanks (Dropped Tanks). These tanks would have a fuel capacity of 800 gallons compared to the standard 610 gallons. The F-15E‘s mission radius would then be increased by about 10%.
    o Additional Internal Fuel added to the outer wing of the F-15E. This would increase the mission radius by 2%
    o Larger Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFTs). The F-15E could still carry the air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons and external pods as well as the fuel tanks. This would increase the mission radius by 5%.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    its not, on the face of it, relevent - but it might be worth reading Vulcan 607 by Rowland White. it gives a lot of detail about the efforts of the RAF/Industry to retro-fit AAR capability to the RAF's Vulcans, Nimrods and C-130's (including turning cargo C-130's into tanker C-130's) during the Falklands war.

    it shows that a technically competant and imaginative air force - which the Israelis certainly are - can, with the assistance of its aircraft industry, which they have, do interesting things in a short space of time.

    as examples, the RAF used scaffolding and aircraft panels to make pylons on Victor Tankers to take and fire the Martel Anti-Radar missile, they fitted the Nimrod ASW and ELINT aircraft with AIM-9 Sidewinder AAM's, they fitted Vulcan - the UK's nuclear strike bomber - with the Pave Spike Laser Guidence System to enable the Vulcan to drop Paveway LGB's.

    some of this stuff took a month - but some of it only took a weekend - and i'm pretty sure the Tornado GR1's going to the 1991 Iraq war had their AAR Probes fitted as a bit of a rush job as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭Maoltuile


    OS119 wrote: »
    its not, on the face of it, relevent - but it might be worth reading Vulcan 607 by Rowland White.

    I have this and I've made a number of attempts to read the thing (the detail of the episode is fascinating - like finding long-removed key Vulcan refueling parts in the oddest places) - the writing style is one that I find particularly atrocious, unfortunately.


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