Foal killed in Galway

Roquentin · 21-06-2014 3:22pm

dharma200 wrote: »

These children are a product of their surroundings and upbringing. They were not born foal beaters.

The problem is inherently deeper than that and the whole traveller community need to something within their own community to stop these types of behaviours.

No one in their right mind thinks this is acceptable, but most in their right mind know that people are not born evil. There is a way to help not only the animal world but those who perpetrate these cruelties rather than stick waving and blood boiling.
I hope the particular community works together to not only locate those who did it, but work out a way to stop it happening again.

I agree with your points. But to stop it happening again, something bigger has to be done. You have to look at how these kids are raised and educated. You educate kids and teach them compassion and emphathy and you can minimize the damage.

I can guarantee that you will still see the same thing happening year after year because the system produces this behaviour. These kids like you say are not born animal abusers, they are created through childhood.

Dan_Solo · 21-06-2014 3:24pm

Roquentin wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/traveller-loses-legal-case-over-right-to-attend-local-school-345270-Feb2012/

So your example of a school discriminating against a traveller is... a link to an article where a court conclusively proved there was no discrimination.
Which side of this argument are you on exactly?

Roquentin · 21-06-2014 3:25pm

PLUG71 wrote: »

Thankyou for your expert opinion!:rolleyes:

I will try to grow up and enjoy the weather.:rolleyes:

You are right life is to short.

The government will do fcuk all as well you know because of the ridiculous softly softly approach that is apparent everyday in this country regarding certain groups of people.

the government only act if they are put under pressure and unfortunately, to most people abuse of animals is of a lesser crime than abuse of humans.

Someone is setting up a petition, that my gain some press.

Even the papers dont print these stories, which says a lot.

dharma200 · 21-06-2014 3:26pm

this story was printed in many national papers.

Roquentin · 21-06-2014 3:27pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So your example of a school discriminating against a traveller is... a link to an article where a court conclusively proved there was no discrimination.
Which side of this argument are you on exactly?

You do realize this is a forum and your grandstanding is utterly futile.

You are basically nit picking at everything i post and picking out and saying this and that. Basically you are bored and looking for trouble, a bit like the kids who beat up the foal for no reason.

So Sir, leave me alone.

Roquentin · 21-06-2014 3:28pm

dharma200 wrote: »

this story was printed in many national papers.

not on the front page though

PLUG71 · 21-06-2014 3:44pm

Roquentin wrote: »

You do realize this is a forum and your grandstanding is utterly futile.

You are basically nit picking at everything i post and picking out and saying this and that. Basically you are bored and looking for trouble, a bit like the kids who beat up the foal for no reason.

So Sir, leave me alone.

So you are right and everybody else is wrong because posters are challenging your posts?

Dan_Solo · 21-06-2014 3:51pm

Roquentin wrote: »

You do realize this is a forum and your grandstanding is utterly futile.

You are basically nit picking at everything i post and picking out and saying this and that. Basically you are bored and looking for trouble, a bit like the kids who beat up the foal for no reason.

So Sir, leave me alone.

Ah right. So when you make wild assertions and then you yourself provide links that prove the exact opposite of your assertions that's just nit picking and as bad as kicking a baby animal to death.
Priceless stuff. Are you here all week?

Roquentin · 21-06-2014 4:24pm

PLUG71 wrote: »

So you are right and everybody else is wrong because posters are challenging your posts?

You said that, not me

PLUG71 · 21-06-2014 4:28pm

Roquentin wrote: »

You said that, not me

That's a little childish

Roquentin · 21-06-2014 4:31pm

PLUG71 wrote: »

That's a little childish

you said that as well

Irishgoatman · 21-06-2014 4:38pm

This thread started because of the disgust that was felt over the treatment of defenceless animals. Now look where it's at:(.

It's hardly surprising that nothing gets done.

Gremlinertia · 21-06-2014 4:39pm

*stares into distance looking for topic*

Dan_Solo · 21-06-2014 4:42pm

Roquentin wrote: »

you said that as well

*You* said travellers were excluded from schools and then proved yourself that you had it arseways. You'd prefer we all forgot that I guess.

inisboffin · 21-06-2014 4:44pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Not a hope in hell.

And that right there, is discrimination in action. It's only a post on a forum, but it's someone giving an judgement about an entire sub-section of people, based on the actions of individuals. I know it's your opinion and that's fair enough but then don't say there's no discrimination if you've already made your mind up about everyone in that community.

Again, seen plenty of settled kids in Dublin be cruel to animals, so it can't be just the 'minority' thing at work.

R1_Pete · 21-06-2014 4:49pm

PLUG71 wrote: »

Sick fcukers should receive the same punishment!

Awaits lash back from all the 'do gudders'!!

For sure. It's a sick act and should be severely punished. Regardless if who did it.

Dan_Solo · 21-06-2014 4:53pm

inisboffin wrote: »

And that right there, is discrimination in action. It's only a post on a forum, but it's someone giving an judgement about an entire sub-section of people, based on the actions of individuals. I know it's your opinion and that's fair enough but then don't say there's no discrimination if you've already made your mind up about everyone in that community.

Again, seen plenty of settled kids in Dublin be cruel to animals, so it can't be just the 'minority' thing at work.

And what about the whataboutery?
There's a culture of brutality to animals in the traveller community. My opinion does not alter this fact any more than my opinion will make them live longer or more of their babies survive childbirth or more of their children finish their education.

inisboffin · 21-06-2014 5:06pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And what about the whataboutery?
There's a culture of brutality to animals in the traveller community. My opinion does not alter this fact any more than my opinion will make them live longer or more of their babies survive childbirth or more of their children finish their education.

By that token there is a 'culture' of child abuse in Ireland, so let's plug that in to a discussion and see how that reads?
Someone say in another country posts re possible solutions

"I hope the particular community works together to not only locate those who did it, but work out a way to stop it happening again."

And you reply with:

"Not a hope in hell..."

Not only inaccurate, but discriminatory and more importantly, not helping anything imo.

Dan_Solo · 21-06-2014 5:12pm

inisboffin wrote: »

By that token there is a 'culture' of child abuse in Ireland, so let's plug that in to a discussion and see how that reads?
Someone say in another country posts re possible solutions

"I hope the particular community works together to not only locate those who did it, but work out a way to stop it happening again."

And you reply with:

"Not a hope in hell..."

Not only inaccurate, but discriminatory and more importantly, not helping anything imo.

Nice try.
"Having a culture of" implies there is a higher incidence of than would be expected. Ireland doesn't really have a higher rate of child abuse than other countries.
However, travellers do have a higher incidence of animal cruelty, drunkeneness, unemployment, school absentention and criminality than their Irish peers.
Hard luck. Maybe your next illogical non-sequitur will stick a bit better?

inisboffin · 21-06-2014 5:34pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Nice try.
"Having a culture of" implies there is a higher incidence of than would be expected. Ireland doesn't really have a higher rate of child abuse than other countries.
However, travellers do have a higher incidence of animal cruelty, drunkeneness, unemployment, school absentention and criminality than their Irish peers.
Hard luck. Maybe your next illogical non-sequitur will stick a bit better?

Nice try? Is this a competition. I'm giggling as to how one would measure 'drunkenness'. Perhaps you mean alcohol consumption rate? My issue is not necessarily with your opinion about the group, my issue is that you don't see it as discrimination to not only tar an entire group with the same brush, but also to judge that there is no hope for any solution to these problems, nor willingness in the community to solve them.

And discrimination doesn't have to be based on facts. I was abroad really recently and two people said: "Oh you guys have a horrible child abuse problem, don't you?" What do you mean I asked them. They then went on to cite an article about the Tuam babies which had a ***much higher than average*** incidence of infant mortality as the reason that they thought this.

Did they say 'not a hope in hell' of Ireland stopping this? No. Because they know that it wasn't the whole country. A group having a higher than average problem rate *does NOT* mean that everyone in that group is responsible, nor does it mean that we shouldn't advocate for change.

Dan_Solo · 21-06-2014 7:21pm

inisboffin wrote: »

Nice try? Is this a competition. I'm giggling as to how one would measure 'drunkenness'. Perhaps you mean alcohol consumption rate?

Wow. Just, wow. You're really going to make a deal of the difference between those two terms? Please, please, try to deny there is a link between alcohol consumption and drunkenness, because, you know, that would be the only reason you would even try to make a point out of that.

inisboffin wrote: »

My issue is not necessarily with your opinion about the group, my issue is that you don't see it as discrimination to not only tar an entire group with the same brush, but also to judge that there is no hope for any solution to these problems, nor willingness in the community to solve them.

It is my opinion that the traveller community will not identify any individual(s) responsible for this or any other animal cruelty. Is that discrimination? I haven't stopped them doing anything, I'm just telling you what I expect will happen.

inisboffin wrote: »

And discrimination doesn't have to be based on facts. I was abroad really recently and two people said: "Oh you guys have a horrible child abuse problem, don't you?" What do you mean I asked them. They then went on to cite an article about the Tuam babies which had a ***much higher than average*** incidence of infant mortality as the reason that they thought this.
Did they say 'not a hope in hell' of Ireland stopping this? No. Because they know that it wasn't the whole country. A group having a higher than average problem rate *does NOT* mean that everyone in that group is responsible, nor does it mean that we shouldn't advocate for change.

Is this in any way connected to what I have posted, because if it is you haven't made the slightest indication how. I don't really care what foreigners think of Ireland as a whole, if what they are saying is false. Why should I? Besides, even your anecdote would be more analogous with Irish society as a whole being blamed for the *actual* problems the traveller community have. That's a matter of perception outside Ireland, which I really don't see how it has any bearing on the fact that travellers are provably not discriminated against in the Irish education system.

inisboffin · 21-06-2014 8:27pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Wow. Just, wow. You're really going to make a deal of the difference between those two terms? Please, please, try to deny there is a link between alcohol consumption and drunkenness, because, you know, that would be the only reason you would even try to make a point out of that.
It is my opinion that the traveller community will not identify any individual(s) responsible for this or any other animal cruelty. Is that discrimination? I haven't stopped them doing anything, I'm just telling you what I expect will happen.

Is this in any way connected to what I have posted, because if it is you haven't made the slightest indication how. I don't really care what foreigners think of Ireland as a whole, if what they are saying is false. Why should I? Besides, even your anecdote would be more analogous with Irish society as a whole being blamed for the *actual* problems the traveller community have. That's a matter of perception outside Ireland, which I really don't see how it has any bearing on the fact that travellers are provably not discriminated against in the Irish education system.

I'm sorry but you haven't proven that to me. You've accused me of stretching analogies but don't see that there is discrimination in the way you judge a whole set of people by the actions of some, but worse than that you claim to *speak* for them as a whole and say they will do nothing to change negative behaviour if offered support. Wow yourself.
The point about drunkenness vs alcohol consumption I was making is a societal one. It's fine to be 'drunk' in mainstream irish culture but alcohol abuse is really common in marginalised groups and the reasons are complex. SThis thread is about animal cruelty but instead of looking for solutions it's much easier to blame and give up it seems. If my points don't resonate with you then so be it. It's not a competition, have your opinion and believe theres 'not a hope in hell'
I'll sign a petition asking for tighter enforcement of existing rules and laws and hope for a change, just like with all the other horrible s*it that we once tolerated.

Dan_Solo · 21-06-2014 10:06pm

inisboffin wrote: »

I'm sorry but you haven't proven that to me. You've accused me of stretching analogies but don't see that there is discrimination in the way you judge a whole set of people by the actions of some, but worse than that you claim to *speak* for them as a whole and say they will do nothing to change negative behaviour if offered support. Wow yourself.

Listen, I get this whole thing about generalisations regarding particular groups of people. In this case I am happy with my conclusion: the traveller community will not change their barbaric practises towards animals without external pressure. Having an opinion on that does not mean I am "speaking" for them any more than me saying the US should stay out of Iraq makes me press secretary for Barack Obama.
I'll sign any petition asking for actual enforcement of already existing laws. Do I expect anybody to pay any attention to such a petition? No.

ThebitterLemon · 21-06-2014 10:16pm

Roquentin wrote: »

They have been brought up not to know the difference between right and wrong. Thats my point. The reason why you or i would not do this, is not because we are inherently good people or born good, its because we have had good childhoods, with parents that taught us right and wrong.

These kids are a product of their environment. The man you are today can be traced back to your childhood.

I am not defending them. I simply observe what i see and i look at pattern. The fact that travellers across the country ill treat their animals shows that something is going wrong in the way those kids are educated and by education i mean at home and school.

Also i am thinking of trying to do something in the long term. Short term is putting them in prison, and they should be in prison. But long term is tackling the problem on a bigger scale. The government should be targeting the traveller community more.

I am laughing my head off that you are getting mad at an LCD screen. Grow up FFS. You dont even know me. The sun is shining, try and enjoy it. Life is short

It sure was for the foal

TbL

Roquentin · 21-06-2014 11:25pm

Horses are been treated so badly all over the country though. Its a bit like the grey hounds that get dumped when they are no longer of use. The ownership of horses needs to be better regulated. We need another sanctuary or two or three by the looks of it. Maybe if we pushed the government to create a few new sanctuary's that might help lessen the problem.

Discodog · 21-06-2014 11:55pm

The Government & Gardai are very selective over which laws are enforced. Traffic law enforcement generates revenue & it's easy. Offences like animal cruelty produce no revenue & are difficult.

I was involved in animal rescue in the UK. The Police were amazing & the vast majority support animal welfare. Neglect an animal in Ireland & nothing happens. Do it in the UK & someone will call the RSPCA & the Police.

Animal welfare has never been a political priority here because the majority don't care enough.

bobbyss · 22-06-2014 11:01am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Listen, I get this whole thing about generalisations regarding particular groups of people. In this case I am happy with my conclusion: the traveller community will not change their barbaric practises towards animals without external pressure. Having an opinion on that does not mean I am "speaking" for them any more than me saying the US should stay out of Iraq makes me press secretary for Barack Obama.
I'll sign any petition asking for actual enforcement of already existing laws. Do I expect anybody to pay any attention to such a petition? No.

To be clear: are you saying there is a particular group who is responsible for this terrible thing that happened recently?

If you are, what is your evidence? Have you informed the Gardai?

Dan_Solo · 22-06-2014 11:17am

bobbyss wrote: »

To be clear: are you saying there is a particular group who is responsible for this terrible thing that happened recently?

If you are, what is your evidence? Have you informed the Gardai?

Why would I need to be clear about something that isn't within a billion miles of what I said? I never said I hold any group "responsible" for this. That's a complete fabrication on your behalf.
Better strawmanning next time please.

Irishgoatman · 22-06-2014 11:56am

Not sure how, or if, this would work but how about someone petitioning the council to have the Galway Dog Warden post re-designated as the Galway Animal Welfare Officer?. At least there would then be someone else to report incidences like this to other than the Gardai, who we know are understaffed.

As I said earlier, I don't live in Galway so it wouldn't carry much weight coming from me, but I would be more than happy to sign and to help get others to do the same.

Dan_Solo · 22-06-2014 12:00pm

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Not sure how, or if, this would work but how about someone petitioning the council to have the Galway Dog Warden post re-designated as the Galway Animal Welfare Officer?. At least there would then be someone else to report incidences like this to other than the Gardai, who we know are understaffed.

As I said earlier, I don't live in Galway so it wouldn't carry much weight coming from me, but I would be more than happy to sign and to help get others to do the same.

The main problem with that suggestion is that the dog warden is utterly useless already with one species to cover.

Irishgoatman · 22-06-2014 12:19pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The main problem with that suggestion is that the dog warden is utterly useless already with one species to cover.

If this is the case then pester your local councillor to get something done about it. Unless people complain, and keep complaining, then he/she will continue to be useless. Here in Mayo I've managed to get a few things done by not being fobbed off.
It works even better if the councillor gets call after call on the same subject.

Dan_Solo · 22-06-2014 12:38pm

Irishgoatman wrote: »

If this is the case then pester your local councillor to get something done about it. Unless people complain, and keep complaining, then he/she will continue to be useless. Here in Mayo I've managed to get a few things done by not being fobbed off.
It works even better if the councillor gets call after call on the same subject.

As with most issues, annoying the councillor only works when he thinks he might lose his seat if he doesn't do something. A lot of councillors could kill every firstborn in the area and still get elected. All the moaning seems to be forgotten on polling day.

Discodog · 22-06-2014 12:42pm

The Gardai are responsible for law enforcement not SPCA's or Councils.

If the Guards fail to take any case seriously then report them to the Garda Ombudsman.

Publicity is likely to be the most effective tool. This story needs to be spread far & wide.

bobbyss · 22-06-2014 1:01pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Why would I need to be clear about something that isn't within a billion miles of what I said? I never said I hold any group "responsible" for this. That's a complete fabrication on your behalf.
Better strawmanning next time please.

Thank you for that clarifying that you don't, as you say, hold any group responsible for this.

So who is responsible do you think?

Roquentin · 22-06-2014 1:09pm

Discodog wrote: »

The Gardai are responsible for law enforcement not SPCA's or Councils.

If the Guards fail to take any case seriously then report them to the Garda Ombudsman.

Publicity is likely to be the most effective tool. This story needs to be spread far & wide.

Thats what i was thinking. Get the petition up and running and see how it goes. There is another thread on this topic and a poster is setting up one

Discodog · 22-06-2014 1:10pm

bobbyss wrote: »

Thank you for that clarifying that you don't, as you say, hold any group responsible for this.

So who is responsible do you think?

Firstly the individual.
Secondly the parents - if it's a child.
Thirdly any witnesses or family/friends who either allowed it to happen or have information.

Dan_Solo · 22-06-2014 1:15pm

bobbyss wrote: »

Thank you for that clarifying that you don't, as you say, hold any group responsible for this.

So who is responsible do you think?

Sorry, do you think I am Batman or Magnum PI here? I don't know their actual name I'm afraid.

Discodog · 22-06-2014 1:20pm

According to press reports the GSPCA have reported the matter to the Guards. But the Guards should of been there immediately. It's a crime scene.
People need to realise that you call the Guards before the SPCA.

bobbyss · 22-06-2014 1:21pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Sorry, do you think I am Batman or Magnum PI here? I don't know their actual name I'm afraid.

1. No need to apologize.

2. You mentioned 'barbaric practises' of travellers in relation to animals.
How are you aware of these barbaric practises? How do you know travellers are responsible?

Irishgoatman · 22-06-2014 1:24pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As with most issues, annoying the councillor only works when he thinks he might lose his seat if he doesn't do something. A lot of councillors could kill every firstborn in the area and still get elected. All the moaning seems to be forgotten on polling day.

Sorry but that's a very negative attitude.

Nothing will get done so let's all sit back and do nothing is not the way to go.

I think I'll sign off this thread now as it's going nowhere. If anyone starts, or hears of, a petition please PM me.

Dan_Solo · 22-06-2014 1:29pm

bobbyss wrote: »

1. No need to apologize.

2. You mentioned 'barbaric practises' of travellers in relation to animals.
How are you aware of these barbaric practises? How do you know travellers are responsible?

2. I've seen them. Numerous times. Reported every time. Nothing done.
Now I can't prove that every case of animal abuse in the history of the state was the responsibility of the traveller community, but I've never even heard of anyone else keeping livestock in urban areas.
Whether this case was travellers or not we don't know for sure yet, but I know which movable doors the Gardai should be knocking on if they're even bothered with any of this.

Discodog · 22-06-2014 1:33pm

bobbyss wrote: »

1. No need to apologize.

2. You mentioned 'barbaric practises' of travellers in relation to animals.
How are you aware of these barbaric practises? How do you know travellers are responsible?

My Greyhound was rescued from travellers. My vet described her condition as appalling.

Yes the "settled community" also commit animal cruelty. But the majority don't take part in "unofficial" Greyhound racing, hare coursing, sulky racing etc.

I have never heard of a case where travellers have offered information to the Guards or Police regarding cruelty.

Plenty of people know who did this & they are as guilty as the perpetrators.

bobbyss · 22-06-2014 1:37pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

2. I've seen them. Numerous times. Reported every time. Nothing done.
Now I can't prove that every case of animal abuse in the history of the state was the responsibility of the traveller community, but I've never even heard of anyone else keeping livestock in urban areas.
Whether this case was travellers or not we don't know for sure yet, but I know which movable doors the Gardai should be knocking on if they're even bothered with any of this.

Ask the Gardai in Darndale, Priorswood, Coolock or Ballymun if it is only Travellers who keep livestock in urban areas.

You may be suprised with the response.

Dan_Solo · 22-06-2014 1:45pm

bobbyss wrote: »

Ask the Gardai in Darndale, Priorswood, Coolock or Ballymun if it is only Travellers who keep livestock in urban areas.

You may be suprised with the response.

No I wouldn't.
But I'd be surprised if it was in Galway which is where we're talking about.
1/4 of all horse abuse cases apparently.

SpaceTime · 22-06-2014 2:02pm

At official level Ireland's actually very lagging behind the UK on animal welfare.

Ultimately, failure to act isn't only bad for animals it's something that damages our reputation as a nation and raises questions about our animal welfare in other areas which may be well regulated.

On the one hand we're trying to send out this image of clean, green, animal friendly Ireland and on the other, the authorities and politicians won't tackle very visible animal welfare issues that we all know about.

Frankly, I don't get it.

bobbyss · 22-06-2014 2:08pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

No I wouldn't.
But I'd be surprised if it was in Galway which is where we're talking about.
1/4 of all horse abuse cases apparently.

You did mention urban areas without specifying Galway urban areas.

Dan_Solo · 22-06-2014 2:17pm

bobbyss wrote: »

You did mention urban areas without specifying Galway urban areas.

You'll also find most of these "settled" urban livestock owners are from the traveller tradition, rendering it all a bit of a non-point.

bobbyss · 22-06-2014 2:34pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You'll also find most of these "settled" urban livestock owners are from the traveller tradition, rendering it all a bit of a non-point.

Non-point? A 'bit' of a non-point? !

I don't think you engage well.

Thank you but goodbye.

PLUG71 · 22-06-2014 2:41pm

Its funny how when posters have their say and then get the hump when somebody comes up with arguments or different points.:D

Dan_Solo · 22-06-2014 2:42pm

bobbyss wrote: »

Non-point? A 'bit' of a non-point? !

I don't think you engage well.

Thank you but goodbye.

And you don't take having your theories disproven with all that much grace either.

Foal killed in Galway

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