M7 - Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade [Junction 9a now open]

Deedsie · 15-08-2015 1:53pm

L1011 wrote: »

Only one bit of the m50 was built under and bought out from a PPP deal of that kind. Tolling the rest for 'fairness' isn't a valid argument

What about the M11? Why is there no toll on that?

Andru93 · 15-08-2015 3:54pm

Deedsie wrote: »

What about the M11? Why is there no toll on that?

Tolls were put on several motorways to help pay back the cost of building then. For example M1, M50(Bridge), Port Tunnel, EastLink, M7 (Shannon), M24 all of these tolls were PPP for a big project such as a Bridge or Tunnel.

Other example such as M3, M4, M7, M8 were all fund through PPP to incentivize private builder to fund part of the cost of the road in return be payed back over X number of years in the toll obtained.
The M11 was all Public Money therefore no toll, and the same goes for the rest of the M50.

L1011 · 15-08-2015 3:57pm

Deedsie wrote: »

What about the M11? Why is there no toll on that?

Because it wasn't built using a tolling PPP.

15-08-2015 8:06pm

And of course the Tolls are removed once builder is paid back yes??

L1011 · 15-08-2015 8:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And of course the Tolls are removed once builder is paid back yes??

Removed after a set period of time whether they've made a profit or not. Its pretty inevitable that the Waterford Bypass won't make a profit, for instance.

JeffK88 · 16-08-2015 1:07am

As with the M50 the tolls will just transfer to government control and there you have a nice little income maker under the guise of " Congestion reducing Tolling " . Once a toll always a toll

Deedsie · 16-08-2015 1:11am

L1011 wrote: »

Because it wasn't built using a tolling PPP.

So why build the southern portion of the M50 and the M11 which serves the wealthiest regions of the country without a toll? And force Cork, Limerick, Tralee, Kilarney, Galway, Sligo & Ennis to pay toll after toll to get to Dublin airport?

I don't even mind paying the toll just widen the M7 for all our sakes

16-08-2015 1:23am

The M7, N7 upgrade won't happen for many years. Money better spent on not needing to drive, just like the M50 upgrade is already proven not to work, still huge delays the volume of traffic is too large and it will mean another motorway will have to be built somewhere to relieve traffic going into Dublin altogether.

Same with the M7/N9. Eventually it will get congested. We need 6 lanes on the M50 each way.

Bigger roads have proven in Ireland not to work but Ireland's solution to an Irish problem has always been do it half assed and only do it so it will work for today (half work) and we'll deal with the future when it's too late. Just look at the M50 south, 2 lanes then they put another lane in. Ridiculous country.

All the illegally bult (corrupt rezoning) housing and apartments along the M50 after Tallaght heading South and no proper rail system , joke !

L1011 · 16-08-2015 10:02am

Deedsie wrote: »

So why build the southern portion of the M50 and the M11 which serves the wealthiest regions of the country without a toll? And force Cork, Limerick, Tralee, Kilarney, Galway, Sligo & Ennis to pay toll after toll to get to Dublin airport?

I don't even mind paying the toll just widen the M7 for all our sakes

Because none of the projects were viable to build as tolled.

Theres no "fairness" argument to be made

Middle Man · 16-08-2015 11:53am

Deleted User wrote: »

The M7, N7 upgrade won't happen for many years. Money better spent on not needing to drive, just like the M50 upgrade is already proven not to work, still huge delays the volume of traffic is too large and it will mean another motorway will have to be built somewhere to relieve traffic going into Dublin altogether.

Same with the M7/N9. Eventually it will get congested. We need 6 lanes on the M50 each way.

Bigger roads have proven in Ireland not to work but Ireland's solution to an Irish problem has always been do it half assed and only do it so it will work for today (half work) and we'll deal with the future when it's too late. Just look at the M50 south, 2 lanes then they put another lane in. Ridiculous country.

All the illegally bult (corrupt rezoning) housing and apartments along the M50 after Tallaght heading South and no proper rail system , joke !

I know the M50 becomes congested at times and the driving is tough, but I'd have the current configuration anytime over the old one - at least it functions. The old setup was congested for much of the day (not just rush hour) and it didn't even work properly at the merge points - at times it was like going through a congested town in the bad old days with some resemblance to chaotic street parking. Even when congested, I find that the traffic moves a lot better now than it did during the economic bubble.

Speaking of congestion, we badly need that Dart Underground project and radial Dart extensions - if any of these are dropped, the EU will need to step in IMO. For too long, Irish politicians have always taken the easy way out...

16-08-2015 9:25pm

Middle Man wrote: »

I know the M50 becomes congested at times and the driving is tough, but I'd have the current configuration anytime over the old one - at least it functions. The old setup was congested for much of the day (not just rush hour) and it didn't even work properly at the merge points - at times it was like going through a congested town in the bad old days with some resemblance to chaotic street parking. Even when congested, I find that the traffic moves a lot better now than it did during the economic bubble.

Speaking of congestion, we badly need that Dart Underground project and radial Dart extensions - if any of these are dropped, the EU will need to step in IMO. For too long, Irish politicians have always taken the easy way out...

I agree on Metro North, but most likely the geniuses will put it hold indefinitely.

The M50 might be better than it was but it's far from being good enough. That's a motorway that needs 6 lanes north and south.

The M50 today is what it should have been 20 years ago but they upgraded it to barely cope with today's volume of traffic.

Same will happen if the M7 N7 upgrade goes ahead, they'll upgrade so it just barely works now and not think about the future.

Who would sit in that traffic if there were a proper infrastructure ? Even if we had a proper rail network in Ireland you still wouldn't be able to get to the industrial areas.

Far to much emphasis is on roads, most likely Metro North will be scrapped for a "better" Bus service which will only add more filthy Diesel vehicles to our streets.

No rail to From the City to the Airport , have to travel by road.

Time and time again it's been proven that bigger roads will get congested.

The only real solution to Dublin's traffic is a proper underground network. And we can pay it back over the next 50+ years and create a lot of jobs in the process. Who would sit in Dublin traffic if you can travel underground in half the time ?

Carawaystick · 16-08-2015 10:55pm

Deedsie wrote: »

What about the M11? Why is there no toll on that?

Which m11?

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 3:55am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Which m11?

From Donnybrook to Gorey. N11/M11 no toll at all to my knowledge. €3.80 a day might reduce traffic some bit?

17-08-2015 6:30am

Ah commuter tolls. The work tax, generally advocated by those living near public transport or their place of work

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 7:44am

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah commuter tolls. The work tax, generally advocated by those living near public transport or their place of work

I cycle 10km in and out of work. I am just advocating fairness. Why is there a toll on the North of the M50 but not the south? Why are there tolls on the M7/M8, M6, M1, N20 but not the M9 & M11/N11.

17-08-2015 7:54am

No, you said it as a congestion measure.
Does anyone think that people of Naas/Newbridge/Sallins/Kildare will be able to not go to work, if the road is tolled?
I'll let you all in on a secret, they don't actually want to go to Dublin but thanks to our over centralised system that's where the work is.

PS. A ten km cycle to work shows exactly what I mean above. You don't have to use a toll

_Kaiser_ · 17-08-2015 10:21am

Just a point based on personal experience of the N/M7, but you could make this stretch 5 lanes wide on each side and you'd still get all the idiots lumped into the far right lane between exit 9 and 11 with someone dawdling along at 20-40 km/h less than the 120 at the head of the line for no good reason. Then the entire thing comes to a panic stop as they dive for the M9 exit (which admittedly should have a long separate exit lane like for example the M50 between J7/N4 and J9/N7)

2 lanes would actually probably be fine though IF you enforced lane discipline.

17-08-2015 10:38am

Bingo.
Same goes at J9 on n7 jus before M7.

They've repeated the mistake at the M7/M8 separator

Cops only worried about speed though.

Carawaystick · 17-08-2015 11:05am

Deedsie wrote: »

From Donnybrook to Gorey. N11/M11 no toll at all to my knowledge. €3.80 a day might reduce traffic some bit?

Where would you build a turnpike that would reduce traffic? At the M11/M50 junction? At Kilmacanogue? Because there's very little place elsewhere to build one that couldn't easily be avoided and the traffic is mostly dissipated in the northern section of the route.

L1011 · 17-08-2015 11:37am

Deedsie wrote: »

I cycle 10km in and out of work. I am just advocating fairness. Why is there a toll on the North of the M50 but not the south? Why are there tolls on the M7/M8, M6, M1, N20 but not the M9 & M11/N11.

Again - there is no "fairness" argument. At all.

gilly0512 · 17-08-2015 11:54am

The M50 should be a lesson to the world in how not to build a motorway, spend years and a small fortune building a relatively small and simple motorway by international standards, stick a hated toll on it, and then spend an even bigger fortune digging it up again to add in an extra lane, and build proper junctions. It took us years to get a proper motorway network in this country, and while I can live per se with tolls on new motorways such as the M1, M6 and M8, tolls should not be allowed on pre-existing motorways such as the M7. It also could be easily argued that we pay a small fortune in road tax in this country, so any motorways that we finally got, we were owed several times over anyway. Our public transport is also awful, so if the government aren't prepared to put money into a proper public transport system, then they have to put more money into road infrastructure and projects such as widening the M7 from Naas to Junction 11, bypassing Galway City, and most controversially of all another orbital route outside the M50, as the M50 is already clearly at maximum capacity.

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 11:54am

L1011 wrote: »

Again - there is no "fairness" argument. At all.

Why not? The wealthiest area of the country can avoid paying tolls quite easily. I live in this area. It's not a fair system. This area also has alternative transport options, DART, LUAS, Dublin Bus, Wexford bus yet still thousands drive and block up the N11. When the kids are back in school next month it will be nuts. Not that the school run would have anything to do with a toll but it does contribute massively to congestion.

L1011 · 17-08-2015 11:55am

Deedsie wrote: »

Why not? The wealthiest area of the country can avoid paying tolls quite easily. I live in this area. It's not a fair system. This area also has alternative transport options, DART, LUAS, Dublin Bus, Wexford bus yet still thousands drive and block up the N11. When the kids are back in school next month it will be nuts. Not that the school run would have anything to do with a toll but it does contribute massively to congestion.

Because the roads without tolls were paid for from the exchequer. The roads with tolls weren't.

That's it

There's nothing about "unfair" to come in to it.

And yet again, you're clearly looking for one as a congestion measure, not for any other reason.

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 11:57am

L1011 wrote: »

Because the roads without tolls were paid for from the exchequer. The roads with tolls weren't.

That's it

There's nothing about "unfair" to come in to it.

And yet again, you're clearly looking for one as a congestion measure, not for any other reason.

What's so wrong with a congestion charge?

L1011 · 17-08-2015 11:58am

Deedsie wrote: »

What's so wrong with a congestion charge?

That's a completely different topic. If that's what you want to discuss, don't try hide it behind a baseless "its not fair!! waaah" argument.

The only congestion-connected toll in the country is the Port Tunnel, where car pricing has been adjusted numerous times related to traffic capacity. The rest are for funding the construction and maintenance of the tolled sections.

17-08-2015 11:59am

Which won't work as our public transport is abysmal and badly connected

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 12:04pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Which won't work as our public transport is abysmal and badly connected

Not in South Dublin/Wicklow/Wexford it's not? There is a very viable alternative for people to get into the city centre, D02 & D04. If people still want to drive and cause congestion let them pay for it. Luas, Dart, Irish Rail, Dublin bus, Wexford bus, bicycle.

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 12:06pm

L1011 wrote: »

That's a completely different topic. If that's what you want to discuss, don't try hide it behind a baseless "its not fair!! waaah" argument.

The only congestion-connected toll in the country is the Port Tunnel, where car pricing has been adjusted numerous times related to traffic capacity. The rest are for funding the construction and maintenance of the tolled sections.

Waaah indeed. It can be a two pronged argument sometimes. It is both unfair to toll some commuters and not others. It is also sensible at times to discourage commuters to drive by tolling a congested roadway which the N11/M11 is.

L1011 · 17-08-2015 12:10pm

Deedsie wrote: »

It is both unfair to toll some commuters and not others.

No, it isn't. As explained repeatedly to you.

If you want to make an argument for a congestion charge, do that in its own place.

17-08-2015 12:11pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Not in South Dublin/Wicklow/Wexford it's not? There is a very viable alternative for people to get into the city centre, D02 & D04. If people still want to drive and cause congestion let them pay for it. Luas, Dart, Irish Rail, Dublin bus, Wexford bus, bicycle.

Ok tell me how to get from Dundrum or Stepaside to Tallaght, Ballymount or Templeogue so.

Your argument seems city specific.

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 12:53pm

L1011 wrote: »

No, it isn't. As explained repeatedly to you.

If you want to make an argument for a congestion charge, do that in its own place.

I'll make my argument whatever way I wish. Who are you to decide how I can construct my argument? In my opinion it is unfair to toll some and not others and a congestion charge would be a good approach to reduce the problem. I'll be back here next week to discuss it further. See you next Tuesday.

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 12:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok tell me how to get from Dundrum or Stepaside to Tallaght, Ballymount or Templeogue so.

Your argument seems city specific.

Dundrum? Luas

dublin bus from the N11 goes to tallaght.

Never had reason to travel to ballymount or templeogue. I'm sure there are options from the city centre.

L1011 · 17-08-2015 12:57pm

Deedsie wrote: »

See you next Tuesday.

Child

17-08-2015 1:41pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Dundrum? Luas

dublin bus from the N11 goes to tallaght.

Never had reason to travel to ballymount or templeogue. I'm sure there are options from the city centre.

Luas is not complete and means 2 hours trip once done, by going through city. How do you propose getting to the bus at N11 at rush hour?

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 2:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Luas is not complete and means 2 hours trip once done, by going through city. How do you propose getting to the bus at N11 at rush hour?

We are discussing south City commuting here? I don't know your starting point. dart to pearse, stroll up to Stephens green Luas to Dundrum? Bit of a pain but better than sitting in traffic.

The 44 bus goes from Enniskerry right past Dundrum

17-08-2015 2:41pm

We are actually discussing the M7 from J9 Naas north to J11 Kilkenny/Carlow and it needing widening.
And that tolling it would be insane and never counter traffic volumes

Carawaystick · 17-08-2015 2:45pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Not in South Dublin/Wicklow/Wexford it's not? There is a very viable alternative for people to get into the city centre, D02 & D04. If people still want to drive and cause congestion let them pay for it. Luas, Dart, Irish Rail, Dublin bus, Wexford bus, bicycle.

So, will you only toll people using the M11 who go to Dublin 1,2,4?
Or how will you deal with traffic using the M11 and then the M50, to you know, bypass Dublin city?

17-08-2015 3:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

We are actually discussing the M7 from J9 Naas north to J11 Kilkenny/Carlow and it needing widening.
And that tolling it would be insane and never counter traffic volumes

If you had the choice to pay a toll or sit in traffic, you'd choose to sit in traffic ?

Carawaystick · 17-08-2015 3:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If you had the choice to pay a toll or sit in traffic, you'd choose to sit in traffic ?

Or travel for free at a time when there was no traffic...

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 4:12pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

So, will you only toll people using the M11 who go to Dublin 1,2,4?
Or how will you deal with traffic using the M11 and then the M50, to you know, bypass Dublin city?

Should have added an etc after D04

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 4:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

We are actually discussing the M7 from J9 Naas north to J11 Kilkenny/Carlow and it needing widening.
And that tolling it would be insane and never counter traffic volumes

Exactly which is badly needed and to toll it would be ridiculous and unfair. Cork commuters would have to pay four tolls to get to Dublin airport whereas Wexford Waterford & KK Would only pay two.

I didn't suggest tolling the M7 widening. I just suggest a toll on the M50 South. Free flow the same as the one at the Northern section. Or a new toll somewhere along the N11/M11.

Carawaystick · 17-08-2015 4:27pm

Deedsie wrote: »

I didn't suggest tolling the M7 widening. I just suggest a toll on the M50 South. Free flow the same as the one at the Northern section. Or a new toll somewhere along the N11/M11.

I've asked you where a few times, but you've no suggestions.There would be a huge amount of rat running to avoid a toll on the N/M11 and a significant decrease in road safety as a result.

17-08-2015 4:38pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Or travel for free at a time when there was no traffic...

Depends on what the pay back period would be, Ireland has a bad peak traffic problem after that the roads are pretty much empty because we're an Island we have no traffic travelling through to different countries.

A lot of people that drive on the M7 M9 have a train, does anyone know why most people take the car ?

I could drive to Carlow or Athy and take the Train to Clondalkin Fonthill

This is the timetable from Athy.

Dep Arr Dur

06:41 08:02 1:21 1
07:19 08:18 0:59 1
08:12 09:07 0:55 1
09:10 10:08 0:58 1
12:19 13:18 0:59 1
14:23 15:19 0:56 1
16:20 17:18 0:58 1
19:49 21:15 1:26 1
21:45 22:30 0:45 0

From Fonthill

Dept Arr Duration
06:51 08:10 1:19 1
09:31 10:58 1:27 1
12:15 13:58 1:43 1
14:26 15:56 1:30 1
16:32 17:35 1:03 1
18:07 19:23 1:16 1
20:27 21:15 0:48 0

I work shift and wouldn't make it for 8am, but I could make it for 9am if I were doing regular 9-5

If doing 9-5 I there isn't a train from 2.30pm -4.30 Pm ? this is absolutely disgraceful , would dart commuters stand for this level of service I think not ?

I'm sure I could get a bus to Grangecastle Business Park ? It would be a bit inconvenient but anything would be better than that mental traffic from Kill sometimes all the way to the M9 turn off.

If we had a lot better rail network from this areas along the M7 M9 I think a lot more people would commute by train elimination the millions needed for a road upgrade and the hassles of driving.

However one huge advantage of doing 8-8 days and nights means that horrendous traffic for me is a distant nightmare !!!

I think that money would be far better spent upgrading the rail network along this route and offering far more trains, there should be trains every 15-20 mins max during peak times.

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 4:40pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

I've asked you where a few times, but you've no suggestions.There would be a huge amount of rat running to avoid a toll on the N/M11 and a significant decrease in road safety as a result.

I dunno really... I just think to balance payments for motorists it should be considered. A free flow toll would be the only option. Junction 15 South. Where you come on to the M50 and get off should dictate the payment

17-08-2015 4:43pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Exactly which is badly needed and to toll it would be ridiculous and unfair. Cork commuters would have to pay four tolls to get to Dublin airport whereas Wexford Waterford & KK Would only pay two.

I didn't suggest tolling the M7 widening. I just suggest a toll on the M50 South. Free flow the same as the one at the Northern section. Or a new toll somewhere along the N11/M11.

Who's commuting by car from Cork to Dublin ?

A toll on the M9 around Naas would help fund a rail upgrade along this route , but I would only accept this if there was a proper rail network with frequent train times. A toll would then probably convince people to take the train.

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 4:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Who's commuting by car from Cork to Dublin ?

A toll on the M9 around Naas would help fund a rail upgrade along this route , but I would only accept this if there was a proper rail network with frequent train times. A toll would then probably convince people to take the train.

Plenty of people from Cork travel for work in Dublin. Not Daily but I work with a guy who is in our office at least once a week. Drives to the red cow park and ride, Luas to abbey street and walks from there.

hardCopy · 17-08-2015 4:51pm

Deedsie wrote: »

A free flow toll would be the only option.

We should never build another toll plaza in this country. The technology is already in place to avoid it and the existing plazas should all be upgraded to M50 style gantries.

17-08-2015 4:52pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Plenty of people from Cork travel for work in Dublin. Not Daily but I work with a guy who is in our office at least once a week. Drives to the red cow park and ride, Luas to abbey street and walks from there.

Is that for work he travels to Dublin once a week ?

So, I travel to Cork/Limerick/Galway/Belfast sometimes and pay tolls ? doesn't bother me, I rather that than have to travel through every tiny village sitting in traffic for hours.

17-08-2015 4:54pm

hardCopy wrote: »

We should never build another toll plaza in this country. The technology is already in place to avoid it and the existing plazas should all be upgraded to M50 style gantries.

I agree but in the case of the M1, M7 M8 the tolls don't exactly cause traffic congestion and you got the eflow barrier with the tag.

Deedsie · 17-08-2015 4:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Is that for work he travels to Dublin once a week ?

So, I travel to Cork/Limerick/Galway/Belfast sometimes and pay tolls ? doesn't bother me, I rather that than have to travel through every tiny village sitting in traffic for hours.

no he vacattions in our office.... Of course he travels up for work. You are happy to pay a toll and sit in traffic, good for you. I am just advocating new tolls to areas that for some strange reason the government decided to not toll. (The wealthiest part of the country). There is no justification for another toll on the M7 though. The road is already overly tolled if travelling from the Cork, Clare/Limerick if you have to go under the tunnel on the N20.

M7 - Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade [Junction 9a now open]

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