Shooting Incident in Newport, Co Tipp

d3exile · 31-01-2012 10:32am #1

Taken from RTE.ie

Ombudsman to probe Tipperary death
Updated: 08:27, Tuesday, 31 January 2012

A man died from a gunshot wound to the head from one of two weapons he was found to be carrying after he was stopped by a Garda patrol in Co Tipperary last night.

Garda Ombudsman to probe Co Tipperary incident
A man died from a gunshot wound to the head from one of two weapons he was found to be carrying after he was stopped by a routine Garda patrol in north Co Tipperary last night.
Gardai say the man was signalled to stop at Newport shortly after 7.30pm.
He produced a shotgun and a struggle ensued between him and the gardaí during which shots were fired.
The gardaí managed to wrestle the firearm from him but he produced a second gun and another shot was fired which wounded him fatally in the head.
The two gardaí were unarmed.
The Garda Ombudsman is to carry out an investigation into the incident.
A spokesperson for the Garda Ombudsman said that all of the man's next of kin have not been informed yet.
He said a man in his mid-forties was driving a van erratically so the two gardaí pulled him over.
The man spoke to the gardaí for "some time" before he produced a gun which he pointed at the Gardaí and then "discharged a number of rounds".
The body is still at the scene and investigating officers remained at the scene over night.
The Thurlus - Annacotty Road is closed and will remain closed for the most part of the day.

d3exile · 31-01-2012 10:34am

Tragic for the man involved, and no doubt traumatic for the two Guards at scene, this could have had a very different ending

POGAN · 31-01-2012 11:09am

awful incident and garda management wants to cut armed D/Os i think we need more armed units not less

d3exile · 31-01-2012 11:19am

POGAN wrote: »

awful incident and garda management wants to cut armed D/Os i think we need more armed units not less

I agree, although this incident seems to have been a relatively unexpected one, sounds like the lads wouldn't have called for an armed unit initially, and once they had they wouldn't have got one there on time... although I do agree there should be more armed units, like the RSU on a 3 relief and stop disarming the D/O's!

da_hambo · 31-01-2012 11:45am

d3exile wrote: »

POGAN wrote: »

awful incident and garda management wants to cut armed D/Os i think we need more armed units not less

I agree, although this incident seems to have been a relatively unexpected one, sounds like the lads wouldn't have called for an armed unit initially, and once they had they wouldn't have got one there on time... although I do agree there should be more armed units, like the RSU on a 3 relief and stop disarming the D/O's!

Definite Scott medals in future I think.They were very lucky we could have been looking at a completely different headline this morning.

CharlieCroker · 31-01-2012 2:04pm

I'd rather it never happened than be given a Scott medal for it!

Best of luck to the members involved and here's hoping they get any support they need

BrianD · 01-02-2012 12:53am

POGAN wrote: »

awful incident and garda management wants to cut armed D/Os i think we need more armed units not less

I don't see the connection or how more armed officers could prevent this type of almost "random" incident.

Fair play to the two members involved in doing their job and putting their own lives at risk in a highly dangerous situation and being witness to the awful turn of events.

WilcoOut · 01-02-2012 3:52am

BrianD wrote: »

I don't see the connection or how more armed officers could prevent this type of almost "random" incident.

Fair play to the two members involved in doing their job and putting their own lives at risk in a highly dangerous situation and being witness to the awful turn of events.

our officers dhould be equiped to deal with ANY type of 'random' incident

or atleast have backup available quickly when this type of 'random' incident occurs

remember, the current system in place only works until it doesnt

and when it doesnt work, lives will be lost

pah · 01-02-2012 10:04am

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mystery-surrounds-fatal-shooting-3005786.html

Mystery surrounds fatal shooting

A GARDA officer grabbed a shotgun while his female sergeant pepper sprayed their assailant as they bravely evaded a gun attack from a suspected drink driver.
The Irish Independent has learned that after disarming the gunman of a shotgun, Garda Gerry Brassil and Sergeant Deborah Marsh raced for cover as Anthony McMahon (44) -- who was partially blinded from the spray -- shot wildly at them with a second gun in Newport, Co Tipperary, on Monday night.
An investigation by the Garda Siochana Ombudsman Commission continued last night after Mr McMahon -- a keen hunter -- took his own life during a horrific ordeal which included shots being fired at the two officers at point-blank range.
Investigators are still mystified as to why the self-employed taxi driver opened fire -- but there has been widespread praise for the response of the two unarmed officers, who escaped without serious physical injuries.
Newport residents and colleagues of Gda Brassil and Sgt Marsh fear there could have been more than one fatality had it not been for their quick actions.
Mr McMahon -- who also worked as a carpet fitter -- was signalled to stop by gardai as he approached Newport on the Thurles road after they received a report about a motorist driving erratically.
Gda Brassil approached the van and the Irish Independent has learned that Mr McMahon -- who was the sole occupant of the vehicle -- grabbed a double- barrelled shotgun and pointed it directly at the officer, who had spotted it and asked whether it was loaded.
The garda managed to push the barrel of the gun away from his head as a shot was discharged.
A struggle then took place as Gda Brassil attempted to disarm Mr McMahon. It is understood that, at one stage, Gda Brassil -- a respected officer who has been based in Newport for 15 years -- held his finger against the trigger to prevent another gunshot.
Sgt Marsh raced to her colleague's aid and a canister of pepper spray was sprayed at Mr McMahon's face but he refused to give up the weapon.
A second gunshot was discharged through the roof of the van as the struggle continued before Gda Brassil -- who was also struck in the face with the shotgun -- gained control of the weapon.
Mr McMahon then produced a high-powered rifle and pointed it towards Sgt Marsh. Another shot was discharged, but the sergeant escaped injury.
Windscreen
The officers sprinted for cover. Gda Brassil crouched behind the front of the garda car as Mr McMahon opened fire with the rifle and shot blindly at the officers from the driver's seat of the van. The patrol car was hit at least four times, with one shot passing through the back and front windscreen.
He then discharged a final shot, wounding himself fatally in the head.
Mr McMahon is originally from the Janesboro area of Limerick city and comes from a well-respected family.
Until last year, he lived in the Limerick city suburbs at Monaleen Park and would socialise at the Monaleen GAA club. Last year he moved to a bungalow in a rural area outside the Tipperary village of Rearcross.
It is understood that he has not worked as a taxi driver following an accident involving his car over Christmas -- it has since been off the road.
Gun cartridges were found at the house in Rearcross by gardai as part of follow-up investigations.
The two guns were licensed to Mr McMahon who was permitted to hold up to four guns. It has not yet been established why Mr McMahon had the weapons in his van with him.

This just goes to show that ANYTHING can happen, based on this article the members were even luckier than was originally thought. Good reactions from the members probably saved both their lives.

MagicSean · 01-02-2012 12:04pm

I'm impressed with the use of the pepperspray. It's still relatively new and easy to forget about in an intense situation like this. The use of it on this occasion could very well have saved their lives by preventing him from taking proper aim.

maryk123 · 01-02-2012 2:13pm

something about this storey doesnt sit - there are big rumours flying around about what really happened with him and a son of a guard in Limerick. He is from a well respected family never in trouble and he had licence for guns which he seemingly has for years. now you dont get a licence if they thing you are not able.
somthing not right here.

d3exile · 01-02-2012 3:21pm

maryk123 wrote: »

something about this storey doesnt sit - there are big rumours flying around about what really happened with him and a son of a guard in Limerick. He is from a well respected family never in trouble and he had licence for guns which he seemingly has for years. now you dont get a licence if they thing you are not able.
somthing not right here.

Yeah and Elvis shot JFK...

People go off their rocker sometimes, hard to prevent, even harder to predict, abbeylara was a legally held firearm as well, as was that taxi driver that went on the rampage in the UK not so long ago... People with licences can have break downs (which I'm assuming this was) as much as people without licences.

Bosh · 01-02-2012 3:33pm

:rolleyes:

BrianD · 01-02-2012 6:01pm

WilcoOut wrote: »

our officers dhould be equiped to deal with ANY type of 'random' incident

or atleast have backup available quickly when this type of 'random' incident occurs

remember, the current system in place only works until it doesnt

and when it doesnt work, lives will be lost

Yes but the only real solution is to arm the entire force because even if you doubled or trebled the availability of armed response units, the incident at Newport would have had the same outcome. It would appear from reports that it happened in minutes.

I wouldn't be in favour of general arming of the Gardai and I don't think an incident like this warrants it. All Gardai enter service and perform their duty in this knowledge (obviously not the specialist ones).

Even with the Daily Mail headlining that there 200.000 legally held fire arms the number of incidents like this are rare. Thankfully so.

MagicSean · 01-02-2012 6:17pm

BrianD wrote: »

Yes but the only real solution is to arm the entire force because even if you doubled or trebled the availability of armed response units, the incident at Newport would have had the same outcome. It would appear from reports that it happened in minutes.

I wouldn't be in favour of general arming of the Gardai and I don't think an incident like this warrants it. All Gardai enter service and perform their duty in this knowledge (obviously not the specialist ones).

Even with the Daily Mail headlining that there 200.000 legally held fire arms the number of incidents like this are rare. Thankfully so.

Most Gardaí would have entered with the knowledge that they would have some protections. Numbers are being cut as well as stations being closed. Vehicles are in short supply and there is talk of disarming detectives. Add that to the pitiful sentences being given to Garda killers and assaulters and the case for arming the Gardaí is looking increasingly stronger.

savagecabbages · 01-02-2012 7:33pm

MagicSean wrote: »

Most Gardaí would have entered with the knowledge that they would have some protections. Numbers are being cut as well as stations being closed. Vehicles are in short supply and there is talk of disarming detectives. Add that to the pitiful sentences being given to Garda killers and assaulters and the case for arming the Gardaí is looking increasingly stronger.

I think the case for proper sentencing is stronger than the case for arming Gardai, and the general public would love to see harsh sentences not just for crimes against Gardai, but for all violent crime.

Turner · 01-02-2012 8:34pm

There will come a time when unarmed Gardai refuse to respond to serious incidents because they are not sufficiently equipped and protected.

It should be happening at the moment but members keep on doing their job and responding to dangerous calls despite cutback after cutback and decreasing levels of safety.

The idea of an unarmed uniformed police force in this age is laughable amongst nearly every police force in the world.

When foreign police are told we are not armed they just cannot comprehend it.

pah · 01-02-2012 10:44pm

Couldnt agree more Turner, the stereotype of the guard on his bicycle riding through the village is a long time gone but people seem adamant to hang onto it for some reason. They think that members carrying sidearms would be to intimidating, christ some even thought the stab vests were too parimilatery looking.

Sh|t cars
Sh|t stations
Sh|t uniforms
Sh|t equipment
Sh|t logistics
Sh|t utilisation of resources

Until management is no longer full of fukking dinosaurs that cant think outside a matchbox things are not going to change.

We should have smart & practical outdoor uniforms, more members trained with tazers etc i could go on forever but i'm already way off topic, sorry

BrianD · 01-02-2012 10:53pm

MagicSean wrote: »

Most Gardaí would have entered with the knowledge that they would have some protections. Numbers are being cut as well as stations being closed. Vehicles are in short supply and there is talk of disarming detectives. Add that to the pitiful sentences being given to Garda killers and assaulters and the case for arming the Gardaí is looking increasingly stronger.

Station closures are not an issue - we seem to have too many. Police:population ratio is broadly the same as the UK. The reductions on staffing aren't going to reduce those ratios substantially.

I do agree with you that sentences aren't harsh enough.

This random incident is still no grounds for arming the Gardai. Guns won't reopen stations, drive cars or multiply cops on the beat. Can't see how arming the gardai will change anything.

d3exile · 01-02-2012 11:01pm

pah wrote: »

Couldnt agree more Turner, the stereotype of the guard on his bicycle riding through the village is a long time gone but people seem adamant to hang onto it for some reason. They think that members carrying sidearms would be to intimidating, christ some even thought the stab vests were too parimilatery looking.

Sh|t cars
Sh|t stations
Sh|t uniforms
Sh|t equipment
Sh|t logistics
Sh|t utilisation of resources

Until management is no longer full of fukking dinosaurs that cant think outside a matchbox things are not going to change.

We should have smart & practical outdoor uniforms, more members trained with tazers etc i could go on forever but i'm already way off topic, sorry

+1

Shocking to think the leaps forward the UK forces have gone through in the last 10years in terms of uniform, equipment, armed support, same thing if you look at any continental EU forces, they are all equipped for the job at hand, Gardai will forever make do, feck sake tetra style system was standard in the UK in the 90s and gougers could still listen to Garda radios via a VHF radio up until a few years ago...

Back on topic tho and again I'll say I wouldn't agree with arming rank and file, although definitely in this instance it would have made a huge difference to the Gardai at scene, but then the papers would have a completely different story today if the Gardai shot him, whether he was armed or not... And the likes of maryk123 above would be having a field day....

angelfire9 · 02-02-2012 12:17am

d3exile wrote: »

Back on topic tho and again I'll say I wouldn't agree with arming rank and file, although definitely in this instance it would have made a huge difference to the Gardai at scene, but then the papers would have a completely different story today if the Gardai shot him, whether he was armed or not... And the likes of maryk123 above would be having a field day....

The only difference arming yesterday's members would have made was that the deceased would have died faster at Garda hands and this morning we'd be looking at the Newport incident as the Abbeylara of 2012

I would be vehemently against arming the rank and file members of AGS we could do with more ERU units nationwide but even if they had had an ERU in Newport the likelihood is that they wouldn't have been deployed to deal with an "erratic driver"

The members involved in Newport deserve great praise and will probably be awarded Scott Medals which they are entitled to IMHO
They will most likely receive counselling for the trauma this incident will have caused, imagine how much more traumatic it would be for them if the deceased had died at their hands?

Zambia · 02-02-2012 7:06am

BrianD wrote: »

This random incident is still no grounds for arming the Gardai. Guns won't reopen stations, drive cars or multiply cops on the beat. Can't see how arming the gardai will change anything.

Lets face it when the incident ended he had the upper hand he had a long range weapon and the Garda were behind a car with one can of pepper spray.

Help was several minutes away.

This is not acceptable, members should not be in that position. If they were armed they would not be.

WilcoOut · 02-02-2012 8:32am

angelfire9 wrote: »

we could do with more ERU units nationwide

every unit in every district (especially dublin) should have an ERU unit assigned to them

the current set up is a joke

pah · 02-02-2012 10:22am

At least one shot out of the four that hit the patrol car traveled through rear and front windscreens of the vehicle!

The man took his own life in the end, which is sad but with two loaded weapons in the car perhaps that was his intention from the start.

Somebody mentioned the trauma of living with having possibly killed the man if the members were armed. I'd rather live with that the rest of my life than have my wife and my 4 kids under 10 live with the trauma of losing their father, so that is a BS argument in my book.

"Brave member gives his life to protect others"? An honest headline no doubt if it had happened this way. A more truthful one would be "Brave member gives his life as he was ill-equipped to protect and defend himself"

It's only a few months since a member was dragged from his car at knifepoint in cork.

Random they may be but more frequent also.

savagecabbages · 02-02-2012 6:13pm

But what do you arm Gardai with? Where do you stop?
I cant see rank & file being given high powered weapons.
As mentioned the man had a long range weapon, if he wanted to take on armed Gardai he would simply out-range them. But then again if he had ill intentions towards Gardai from the outset he would have done that anyway before the altercation started...

I think this was a one-off case with someone who had lost the plot, not an indication of a trend.

d3exile · 02-02-2012 6:23pm

savagecabbages wrote: »

As mentioned the man had a long range weapon, if he wanted to take on armed Gardai he would simply out-range them.

I think you underestimate the capabilities of the specialist units in the Gardai... The ERU would be second only to the Army Rangers in terms of capabilities I believe and easily out range anyone...

What's there is elite, well trained and well equipped, the problem is there isn't enough of them... An armed standoff in some parts of the country can take more than an hour for the RSU or ERU to arrive, if required

Rank and file Gardai will never be armed, the GRA have said they don't want it, the public wouldn't support it and the Government wouldn't pay for it...

Armed response units, however are essential and the way things are going WILL be a necessity 24/7 and nationwide in the very short future!!

savagecabbages · 02-02-2012 6:36pm

I'm not underestimating the elite units, more pointing out that this incident isn't much of a case for arming EVERY guard. The man had a high powered rifle with him. A sidearm wont be much use.

I do agree that more armed support units should be available. The UK model of arming many traffic units seems do work well. Or does it?

Sierra Oscar · 02-02-2012 6:39pm

savagecabbages wrote: »

A sidearm wont be much use.

How wouldn't it? It would be lethal, which was perhaps necessary if the guy didnt decide to shoot himself and continue to go on a rampage. A sidearm is capable of incapacitating a suspect who is trying to kill you - fact. Trying to claim otherwise is silly in my opinion.

savagecabbages · 02-02-2012 7:09pm

You seem to be missing my point.
If someone with a long range weapon wants to shoot someone with a short range one, he can do so from 100+ yards away. In such a case a sidearm isn't much use.

I'm not saying its not lethal, just that arming every guard isn't a 'cure all' solution to the problem...

source · 02-02-2012 7:58pm

savagecabbages wrote: »

You seem to be missing my point.
If someone with a long range weapon wants to shoot someone with a short range one, he can do so from 100+ yards away. In such a case a sidearm isn't much use.

I'm not saying its not lethal, just that arming every guard isn't a 'cure all' solution to the problem...

If the members were armed, they wouldn't have had to run behind the car to hide, and the guy would never have gotten his hands on the high powered rifle.

If members were properly armed, then the situation wouldn't have developed to the extent that it did. Also these are the members who are first responders to all calls, When they arrive at a bank robbery or an armed call, wouldn't it be great if they didn't have to wait an hour for armed assistance and were properly equipped to do the job themselves?

If you haven't guessed I'm all for arming the regular members. Having spent 4 years as a member, and having been in some very sticky and scary situations, I feel it is unfortunately a necessary evil. We're at a stage where the regular scrote on the street can access firearms if they really want it.

There are very powerful weapons up to and including grenades and pipebombs available to the scrotes that Gardai are dealing with every day, in this day and age it is unacceptable for them not to be armed and to be dealing with these scumbags with a baton and some pepper spray.

BrianD · 02-02-2012 8:03pm

Zambia wrote: »

Lets face it when the incident ended he had the upper hand he had a long range weapon and the Garda were behind a car with one can of pepper spray.

Help was several minutes away.

This is not acceptable, members should not be in that position. If they were armed they would not be.

Still doesn't stack up.

Let's say every division or county had an armed response unit. Would they have got there in the time that this event unfolded? Unlikely. Put this incident another 10K into the countryside and they probably wouldn't even find them.

The only solution to reverse this state of affairs is to arm all members. There is no public appetite for this and nor do I believe a necessity. Armed units are required but in my view these units - as in the UK - aren't really being trained to respond to this type of event i.e where somebody may appear be in a confused or distressed state and armed . It's rare that you hear of a successful outcome to this type of event.

Gardai since the foundation of the State have accepted that they are policing the community unarmed. There have always been armed criminals and situation where supposedly 5 people in 100 have a legal firearm.

However, I would agree that you do tend to take a cop with a gun more seriously in any situation.

02-02-2012 9:40pm

BrianD wrote: »

Still doesn't stack up.

Let's say every division or county had an armed response unit. Would they have got there in the time that this event unfolded? Unlikely. Put this incident another 10K into the countryside and they probably wouldn't even find them.

The only solution to reverse this state of affairs is to arm all members. There is no public appetite for this and nor do I believe a necessity. Armed units are required but in my view these units - as in the UK - aren't really being trained to respond to this type of event i.e where somebody may appear be in a confused or distressed state and armed . It's rare that you hear of a successful outcome to this type of event.

Gardai since the foundation of the State have accepted that they are policing the community unarmed. There have always been armed criminals and situation where supposedly 5 people in 100 have a legal firearm.

However, I would agree that you do tend to take a cop with a gun more seriously in any situation.

Just because you only read about armed incidents in the news doesn't mean they don't happen. Most of the encounters the members are lucky and get the gow or they get away.

d3exile · 02-02-2012 10:44pm

BrianD wrote: »

Gardai since the foundation of the State have accepted that they are policing the community unarmed. There have always been armed criminals and situation where supposedly 5 people in 100 have a legal firearm.

It's not 1922 anymore.

90years on and the scrotes on the street are a hell of a lot tougher than the public seem to understand.

Zambia · 03-02-2012 12:21am

BrianD wrote: »

Still doesn't stack up.

Let's say every division or county had an armed response unit. Would they have got there in the time that this event unfolded? Unlikely. Put this incident another 10K into the countryside and they probably wouldn't even find them.

I agree totally I am for arming all members.

BrianD wrote: »

The only solution to reverse this state of affairs is to arm all members. There is no public appetite for this and nor do I believe a necessity.

I was the Irish public and if the Garda said the need was there then I would see no reason to cause a fuss. If I called 999 for help due to an armed incident I want someone to come and help not keep me company while they radio someone else.

BrianD wrote: »

Gardai since the foundation of the State have accepted that they are policing the community unarmed. There have always been armed criminals and situation where supposedly 5 people in 100 have a legal firearm.

Times change in the end its up to the rank and file to demand this.

brinks_18476 · 03-02-2012 9:53am

savagecabbages wrote: »

But what do you arm Gardai with? Where do you stop?
I cant see rank & file being given high powered weapons.
As mentioned the man had a long range weapon, if he wanted to take on armed Gardai he would simply out-range them. But then again if he had ill intentions towards Gardai from the outset he would have done that anyway before the altercation started...

I think this was a one-off case with someone who had lost the plot, not an indication of a trend.

Tazer would be a good measure. Non lethal and very effective at close range.

If these brave gardai were equipped with Tazer thet would have been in a position to preserve ALL lives as well as drastically reducing the risk they were exposed to.

A basic risk assessment of this or similar scenarios which can and does occur at any time will show that gardai at UNNECESSARILY being put at risk when there are feasible control measures available (eg Tazer) which would reduce the risk substantially.

AGS are breaching health and safety law IMO.

Look at UK police. Every other cop is issued with Tazer thesr days. Why? Because risk assesments have identified the dangers and Tazer is a further control measure to reduce the risk.

Zambia · 03-02-2012 10:39am

With the greatest respect brinks a tazer is not a alternative for a firearm. Its a great device and as an add on to a Firearm its great.

But Sean Connerys quote is correct
If he brings a knife you bring a gun.

The cops should always be one level of force up from the offender.

Interesting read here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7608882.stm

Its all about risk management of the police the offender can give up at any time.

POGAN · 03-02-2012 11:08am

Zambia wrote: »

With the greatest respect brinks a tazer is not a alternative for a firearm. Its a great device and as an add on to a Firearm its great.

But Sean Connerys quote is correct
If he brings a knife you bring a gun.

The cops should always be one level of force up from the offender.

Interesting read here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7608882.stm

Its all about risk management of the police the offender can give up at any time.

My idea will work give traffic tazers, there trained drivers have units in every town . They wouldn't cost that huge amount

What ye think?

Locust · 03-02-2012 11:15am

i dont think you should taser someone who has their finger on a trigger... Im for arming uniform members. 1st responders MUST be able to deal with worst case scenario.

That scenario could have easily turned very nasty - national tragedy.

Its a disgrace that law enforcement would have little choice but to confront an angry deranged person with.... pepper spray or a steel pipe... or have to run and hide and be left defenseless behind a car whilst he could shoot them one at a time, whilst waiting for armed members coming from god know how far away.

Respect to the guys. But its a joke that they are required to risk their lives like that. Yes this is just one incident but 'angry deranged type' people snapping are a trend on the rise in this day and age, the world is going mad remember?

The old quote "its better to have a firearm and not need it, than to need a firearm and not have one!"

Zambia · 03-02-2012 11:30am

POGAN wrote: »

My idea will work give traffic tazers, there trained drivers have units in every town . They wouldn't cost that huge amount

What ye think?

Depends what you are aiming for.

If I have a a 15 Shot semi auto pistol with rounds that should penetrate most clothing

You have a 1/2 shot tazer with a range of 6 metres that fires a barb that could easily get tangled on a padded heavy coat( Irish weather).

Who is more likely to win?

Zambia · 03-02-2012 11:30am

POGAN wrote: »

My idea will work give traffic tazers, there trained drivers have units in every town . They wouldn't cost that huge amount

What ye think?

Depends what you are aiming for.

If I have a a 15 Shot semi auto pistol with rounds that should penetrate most clothing

You have a 1/2 shot tazer with a range of 6 metres that fires a barb that could easily get tangled on a padded heavy coat( Irish weather).

Who is more likely to win?

MagicSean · 03-02-2012 12:15pm

You can't really advocate arming gardai unless you are willing to support them when they use them and come up with acceptable rules of engagement too. Let's say there is a man with a knife who refuses to drop it. At present a Garda can spray him and use his baton. This would be an effective counter measure. Now let's add a pistol to his equipment. What equipment should now be used? Are we prepared for this man to be shot when previously he would have been subdued? When you look at the cases of gardai being prosecuted and sued for rough arrests I don't think the protection would be provided to allow gardai to use their firearm.

brinks_18476 · 03-02-2012 12:28pm

Zambia wrote: »

With the greatest respect brinks a tazer is not a alternative for a firearm. Its a great device and as an add on to a Firearm its great.

But Sean Connerys quote is correct
If he brings a knife you bring a gun.

The cops should always be one level of force up from the offender.

Interesting read here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7608882.stm

Its all about risk management of the police the offender can give up at any time.

Ref comment in bold above I agree. I also appreciate and understand the limitations of Tazer. My suggestion was a practical one to further equip AGS members with additional protective equipment.

The fact is that arming of all members of AGS will not happen in my lifetime ( and i'm not old!)
Arming all gardai with Tazer could happen very quickly (costs aside). It is a suggestion that could be introduced. Arming all gardai with guns wont happen.

Issue some/most/all with Tazer. Guns for ordinary gardai on regular units would only ever follow the introduction of Tazer to regular units anyway.

In the context of this thread (from what i have read **i recognise this is NOT fact***) it is likely that the members exposed to this terrible situation could have subdued the offender using Tazer results in avoidance of the danger that followed and the loss of life.

Zambia · 03-02-2012 1:10pm

brinks_18476 wrote: »

Ref comment in bold above I agree. I also appreciate and understand the limitations of Tazer. My suggestion was a practical one to further equip AGS members with additional protective equipment.

It would of course be a step in the right direction but why get a little bit pregnant.

brinks_18476 wrote: »

The fact is that arming of all members of AGS will not happen in my lifetime ( and i'm not old!)
Arming all gardai with Tazer could happen very quickly (costs aside). It is a suggestion that could be introduced. Arming all gardai with guns wont happen.

Why not if you have the cash to buy Tazers a load of 40 Cal Glock's would not be that far a stretch. Quite possibly cheaper.

brinks_18476 wrote: »

Issue some/most/all with Tazer. Guns for ordinary gardai on regular units would only ever follow the introduction of Tazer to regular units anyway.

In the context of this thread (from what i have read **i recognise this is NOT fact***) it is likely that the members exposed to this terrible situation could have subdued the offender using Tazer results in avoidance of the danger that followed and the loss of life.

In the case yes one Garda could have deployed a Tazer. The scenario would be just as bad had the offender exited the vehicle before the Gardai came within tazer range. The scene in the film "The Guard" comes to mind.

Would you play a game of poker if your opponent got to use the ace and you did not.

Locust · 03-02-2012 4:13pm

MagicSean wrote: »

You can't really advocate arming gardai unless you are willing to support them when they use them and come up with acceptable rules of engagement too. Let's say there is a man with a knife who refuses to drop it. At present a Garda can spray him and use his baton. This would be an effective counter measure. Now let's add a pistol to his equipment. What equipment should now be used? Are we prepared for this man to be shot when previously he would have been subdued? When you look at the cases of gardai being prosecuted and sued for rough arrests I don't think the protection would be provided to allow gardai to use their firearm.

I'd back and support them to the hilt

Every scenario is different - If i thought there was no threat by the knife, i'd use lower force - e.g. spray him or call for the public order unit with shields - if he was coming towards me with the knife in a hostile manner or thought there was imminent danger i'd be happy to blow his head off. Theres nothing wrong with that - its him or you. Sure there would be an investigation but you're doing your job. Everything gets investigated thats police life.

I recall hearing about police officers who didn't shoot someone in a life threatening situation and they got some serious roasting for not firing as it could have cost them a colleague or member of the publics life.

How do you think other armed police forces - PSNI, French, German or American armed police operate?! You are fully covered to use lethal force if its legal necessary and proportionate. Police services that are armed are generally more professional as they have better training and discipline

Sierra Oscar · 03-02-2012 4:57pm

Someone who witnessed the entire event has given an interview to the Irish Independent.

I wonder if the Gardai were using TETRA? Looks like they were still reliant upon mobile phones - it was only by using the phone of the witness that they managed to call for assistance.

Witness to terrifying attack on gardai says brave officers deserve commendation

THE only witness to a dramatic gun attack on two gardai has revealed how the gunman took aim at the female officer as she collapsed on the road before she managed to escape

Shane O’Brien said he cannot believe that Sergeant Deborah Marsh and Garda Gerry Brassil escaped with their lives after a number of shots were fired at them by the man who had a shotgun and a rifle.

Mr O’Brien, from Newport, Co Tipperary, said he heard Gda Brassil roar at Anthony McMahon (44) not to pick up his loaded gun after the motorist was stopped on suspicion of drink-driving on Monday night.

Mr O’Brien took cover behind a pillar at the entrance to his cottage as McMahon took aim at Sgt Marsh and Gda Brassil.

Speaking exclusively to the Irish Independent, Mr O’Brien said he went outside his home after McMahon was signaled to stop his van.

“I saw some blue lights flashing outside. To be honest with you, I was nosy and went outside to investigate what was going on,” he said. He walked to the entrance of his drive.

“There is a pillar just outside my wall and I went out that far. I stood there. I saw the whole thing.

“I could see the lady garda at the front of the car. I could hear another male voice – I presume the male garda and he was saying: ‘Don’t go for the gun, don’t go for the gun’.” Gda Brassil wrestled with McMahon for control of the shotgun while Sgt Marsh pepper-sprayed him.

“I could see a bit of a scuffle. There was a struggle. There was a few shots – gunshots had gone off at this stage. One of guards grabbed one of the guns off him.”

After Sgt Marsh fell to the ground, Mr O’Brien witnessed the gunman take aim at her with another weapon – a rifle he also had in the car. “Whatever happened then, the lady guard fell down,” Mr O’Brien said.

“He grabbed another gun inside in the van. He was trying to shoot them. “I could see the gun coming out the window – he did go to shoot her.”

The two officers raced for their lives with Gda Brassil using the front of the patrol car for protection, while Sgt Marsh ran towards the frightened resident.

“She (Sgt Marsh) came running back up to me. She saw me here at the pillar – there was another shot or two. She hid down behind the pillar with me,” Mr O’Brien said.

Sgt Marsh had dropped her phone during the struggle with her assailant “She asked did I have a phone. So I ran in, I got my phone and I dialled 999 for her. She got through to the emergency response and she called for back-up.”

Mr O’Brien said Sgt Marsh bravely ran back onto the road to stop other cars from entering the scene. “We didn’t know what he was going to do. There was another shot and we didn’t know he was after shooting himself at this stage.

“She went back up there (to stop traffic) and I ran back in here. I didn’t know what to do. It was terrifying.

“I went down later on and the Emergency Response Unit were there, I could see a few bullet holes in the front windscreen of the van. He was obviously taking pot shots out the front of the van.”

Mr O’Brien said the two garda officers saved each others lives. “They wouldn’t be alive only for each other. They were brilliant in fairness.

“The female guard, after what happened her – the man put a gun out the window at her (and shot at her). I could hear it (the gunshot) and she had the presence of mind then to go up there and try and stop traffic coming down. . .” He said Sgt Marsh was thinking of other people when she ran up the road to stop traffic.

“God only knows what that lunatic was going to do. It was crazy stuff. To be honest with you after that, I came back in here and locked the door,” he said.

Mr O’Brien and his neighbours, William and Maureen Casey, said the two officers should be commended by An Garda Siochana for their actions this week.

Manic Moran · 03-02-2012 11:08pm

savagecabbages wrote: »

But what do you arm Gardai with? Where do you stop?
I cant see rank & file being given high powered weapons.
As mentioned the man had a long range weapon, if he wanted to take on armed Gardai he would simply out-range them.

Unless the two Gardai were Olympic class sprinters, I don't get the impression that they had managed to run sufficiently far from the individual that they were out of sidearm range. They certainly couldn't run fast enough to outrun the bullets, so running sufficiently far to be out of rifle range wouldn't be a reliable option.

In a nutshell, the two Gardai were no longer active particpants in the event. They had become passive bystanders with no ability to control the situation. Whether they lived or died had become a situation outside of their control and was now dependant upon the actions of an individual who may not have been entirely in control of his senses. Are you sure this is a situation you wish to have as a result of a policy decision?

But then again if he had ill intentions towards Gardai from the outset he would have done that anyway before the altercation started...

Really?

You probably want to view this video which is now used for training in the US.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8-ycSkoYfc

And before anyone says that "this proves that arming the Gardai wouldn't have made any difference", it is to be pointed out that it is used for training as an example of a cop who failed to carry out his own training.

NTM

WilcoOut · 04-02-2012 7:17am

at the end of the day, our gardai are racing at high speed with blue lights and sirens to armed incidents

and all they have to tackle a man with a handgun, a shotgun, uzi or bazooka is a lump of iron bar and a potent steak sauce in a can

i spoke to an ozzy cop and he was gobsacked that Irish cops arnt armed he stated 'id feel naked on duty without it, come to think of it, i wouldnt go on duty without it!'

i told a NYPD guy bout our stabvests and he said whats a stab vest? i explained what it was and asked did he not have one. he said 'why would i need that, i have a glock!'

King Ludvig · 05-02-2012 6:12pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

And before anyone says that "this proves that arming the Gardai wouldn't have made any difference", it is to be pointed out that it is used for training as an example of a cop who failed to carry out his own training.

NTM

Out of interest what should the officer in the video have done differently?

brinks_18476 · 05-02-2012 6:19pm

King Ludvig wrote: »

Out of interest what should the officer in the video have done differently?

shot first

d3exile · 05-02-2012 6:25pm

brinks_18476 wrote: »

King Ludvig wrote: »

Out of interest what should the officer in the video have done differently?

shot first

He did shoot first, it's in the text info of the video

Manic Moran · 05-02-2012 9:22pm

Arguably 'shot earlier'.

Either way, he fired one shot out of the fifteen in his magazine, and waited to see what would happen. He failed to keep shooting until the threat was ended.

NTM

Shooting Incident in Newport, Co Tipp

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