Fines....

ODEON123 · 07-10-2015 5:03pm #1

Hi,

Just a question that has sprung to mind which I cant answer myself
Do you have to give a ticket inspector your correct info like a real name, address etc is it illegal not too. I was thinking it isnt illegal to lie to them but I am unsure just in case I ever come across one on a day I forget my leapcard

flyingsnail · 07-10-2015 5:13pm

Yes it is illegal to not give a name and address or give a false name and address
Section 132 of the Railway Safety Act 2005

132.—(1) Every passenger of a railway undertaking shall, on request by an officer or employee of a railway undertaking, produce, and if so requested, deliver up to the officer or employee a ticket showing that his or her fare is paid and, if the fare has not been paid, shall upon request—

(a) pay, to the officer or employee—
(i) his or her fare from the place where he or she started the journey by railway, or
(ii) such other fare for non-payment of a fare as fixed by the undertaking,
as the officer or employee decides, or

(b) give the officer or employee his or her name and address.
(2) A passenger who fails—
(a) to comply with a request under subsection (1) to deliver up a ticket,
(b) to pay the fare required under subsection (1)(a), or
(c) to give his or her name and address, if requested under subsection (1)(b),
is guilty of an offence.

(3) A passenger who—
(a) travels or attempts to travel on a railway of a railway undertaking without having previously paid his or her fare, and with intent to avoid such payment,
(b) having paid his or her fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid such payment, or
(c) having failed to pay his or her fare, gives in reply to a request by an officer or employee of a railway undertaking a false or misleading name or address,
is guilty of an offence.

(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €1,000.

(5) The liability of an offender to a penalty under this section does not prejudice the recovery of any fare payable by him or her.

Losty Dublin · 07-10-2015 7:43pm

ODEON123 wrote: »

Hi,

Just a question that has sprung to mind which I cant answer myself
Do you have to give a ticket inspector your correct info like a real name, address etc is it illegal not too. I was thinking it isnt illegal to lie to them but I am unsure just in case I ever come across one on a day I forget my leapcard

If you happen to forget your leap card then pay with cash. Given the nature of your initial query I suspect that this effective yet novel idea may well have slipped past you

Carawaystick · 07-10-2015 11:20pm

Seems harsh that if you give a true but misleading name you can be guilty of an offence, that's hardly constitutional.

Victor · 08-10-2015 1:02pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Seems harsh that if you give a true but misleading name you can be guilty of an offence, that's hardly constitutional.

Can you give an example of a true but misleading name?

cython · 08-10-2015 1:16pm

Victor wrote: »

Can you give an example of a true but misleading name?

Only barely qualifies, but as it happens, my neighbour at home has the same address as me (doesn't get more precise than the road name in rural Ireland), and we also have the same full first name, surname and middle initial. However both of us use different contractions of that first name day to day. Were I to give either the contraction he uses, or indeed the full form, it would be technically true, but misleading in that the fine could be levied on him/it is less likely to be levied on me.

Flatzie_poo · 08-10-2015 1:18pm

Victor wrote: »

Can you give an example of a true but misleading name?

Homer: Hello, my name is Mr. Burns. I believe you have a letter for me.

P.O. Worker: Okay, Mr. Burns. What's your first name?

Homer: I...don't know.

ODEON123 · 08-10-2015 8:32pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If you happen to forget your leap card then pay with cash. Given the nature of your initial query I suspect that this effective yet novel idea may well have slipped past you

Its never happened to me I usually use the bus but I may not have cash on me

tabbey · 08-10-2015 8:57pm

I think the word misleading is included in the regulation, in case some creative defence counsel claims in court that Pat Kelly is known to his family and friends as Homer Simpson, and that therefore it is his genuine name. In this case, the court might deem it not a false name, but convict the fare evader, on the grounds that it is misleading.

goingnowhere · 08-10-2015 10:19pm

Any attempt to convict would fail if the name and address given was shown to be accurate. But this in no way would stop proceedings for the issue which triggered the request for name and address in the first place

Obviously the rules only allow for name and address to be demanded if the authorised official has reason to believe an offence listed in the Transport Act/Rail Safety Act/Bye Laws has occurred

ODEON123 · 08-10-2015 10:22pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Any attempt to convict would fail if the name and address given was shown to be accurate. But this in no way would stop proceedings for the issue which triggered the request for name and address in the first place

Obviously the rules only allow for name and address to be demanded if the authorised official has reason to believe an offence listed in the Transport Act/Rail Safety Act/Bye Laws has occurred

I could just be like yeah my name is John joe I live on 15 main street limerick city and off I go like they have no other way of finding me do they?

goingnowhere · 08-10-2015 10:30pm

ODEON123 wrote: »

I could just be like yeah my name is John joe I live on 15 main street limerick city and off I go like they have no other way of finding me do they?

They do
Tom directory (list of all property owners in the state)
Electoral register

Note they do have the power of arrest in some cases so if you make life difficult you could find yourself in the cells of the local cop shop

Victor · 09-10-2015 12:52am

goingnowhere wrote: »

Tom directory

Thom's Directory.

alcaline · 10-10-2015 7:53pm

If you are nice all you will get is a warning and be made to pay the difference to make up the correct fare.
I know this because i see it regularly.

L1011 · 12-10-2015 8:15am

goingnowhere wrote: »

They do
Tom directory (list of all property owners in the state)
Electoral register

Note they do have the power of arrest in some cases so if you make life difficult you could find yourself in the cells of the local cop shop

Thoms is inaccurate. Most people opt out of the edited electoral register now and I suspect fine enforcement is not an allowed use of the full register

amdublin · 12-10-2015 8:17am

L1011 wrote: »

Thoms is inaccurate. Most people opt out of the edited electoral register now and I suspect fine enforcement is not an allowed use of the full register

They are not using it for fine enforcement, it's being used for address verification.

L1011 · 12-10-2015 8:58am

amdublin wrote: »

They are not using it for fine enforcement, it's being used for address verification.

Same thing.

You need a valid reason to access the full register and that shouldn't be one.

Losty Dublin · 12-10-2015 9:15am

L1011 wrote: »

Same thing.

You need a valid reason to access the full register and that shouldn't be one.

Confirming the details of somebody who is being issued a legal penalty far and/or who may be taken to court on a charge of fare evasion. Is that not a valid reason to access same?

Isn't Thom available to freely purchase?

Carawaystick · 12-10-2015 9:26am

As I remember it, the law only allows inspectors detain you if they suspect you are not telling them the correct address. They can't detain you just to check you told them the correct address as a routine matter.

L1011 · 12-10-2015 11:15am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Confirming the details of somebody who is being issued a legal penalty far and/or who may be taken to court on a charge of fare evasion. Is that not a valid reason to access same?

The electoral register is not collected for that purpose. The edited register which is available for other purposes is by this stage a tiny sliver of the total information.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Isn't Thom available to freely purchase?

Yes, but its wildly inaccurate. Plenty of accurate details will be "confirmed" as "false" using it.

amdublin · 12-10-2015 12:17pm

L1011 wrote: »

Same thing.

You need a valid reason to access the full register and that shouldn't be one.

What is the actual purpose of thoms??

JapaneseLove · 12-10-2015 12:30pm

ODEON123 wrote: »

Hi,

Just a question that has sprung to mind which I cant answer myself
Do you have to give a ticket inspector your correct info like a real name, address etc is it illegal not too. I was thinking it isnt illegal to lie to them but I am unsure just in case I ever come across one on a day I forget my leapcard

Ive been caught b4 on the Luas by inspectors. Not that i ment to, i was in a rush and 4got to buy a ticket. I gave a fake name and address, obivously. He asked for my ID. I told him i didnt have my wallet so i had none on me. He then got very personal. Raised his voice and started to threaten me with all this legal crap. The luas stopped and doors opened. I just walked away from him, he grabbed me and tried to pull me back. Threw off the grab. Seems a bit extreme to me.

Flatzie_poo · 12-10-2015 1:03pm

JapaneseLove wrote: »

Raised his voice and started to threaten me with all this legal crap.

You mean the law!!? :pac:

Losty Dublin · 12-10-2015 1:03pm

L1011 wrote: »

The electoral register is not collected for that purpose. The edited register which is available for other purposes is by this stage a tiny sliver of the total information....

Yes, but its wildly inaccurate. Plenty of accurate details will be "confirmed" as "false" using it.

It's publicly available information though, plus it's in book form since God knows when. I don't get your issue with using it as an aid.

Of course, if people gave correct details in the first place or, better again, paid their fares....

amdublin · 12-10-2015 1:07pm

When I worked in a bank 20 years ago we would use thoms for address verification - in very rare cases only when the customer couldn't provide a bill or official letter with their address.

I really don't see any problem with irish rail using it for address verification now.

If the book is published but you can't use it what's the point in that?

amdublin · 12-10-2015 1:09pm

Any hoo I've seen in action by the ticket inspectors how they verify people's addresses and very effective it is too. But I'm not posting here what it is so as not to advertise ways around it for all the fare dodgers. Pay your fares!!!!

L1011 · 12-10-2015 3:10pm

amdublin wrote: »

What is the actual purpose of thoms??

Very little these days, but if you read the posts properly you'll see the problem is with using the electoral register, not thoms. Thoms is just uselessly inaccurate

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It's publicly available information though, plus it's in book form since God knows when. I don't get your issue with using it as an aid.

The unedited electoral register has been restricted to electoral purposes only for some years. The edited register is the public version and it contains a tiny fraction of the number of people, as its basically opt-in.

I have never appeared in the edited register but I've been registered to vote my entire adult life. I'm also unlikely to be in Thoms. How would they verify my address (if they ever had reason to, which they won't) using these two antiquated 'tools' in this case?

Fines....

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