Fee proposal for new build - is this extortionate?

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

Its not an accusation-I have encountered it on numerous occasions over the years and there was article in the Irish times several years ago about the practice. Seems it is is not recommended by the professional body for Architects nor is it condoned!

..what utter rubbish..

My point is that you are better off trying to find a builder independently of the Architect for the reasons stated.

Another anomaly is that an Architectural technician can call himself/herself an Architect if he /she is a member of the RIAI. There is a difference between an Architect and an Architectural Technician.

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

Another anomaly is that an Architectural technician can call himself/herself an Architect if he /she is a member of the RIAI. There is a difference between an Architect and an Architectural Technician.

Now you really are talking bull.

While many technologists can and do provide the service quoted, they are not permitted to call themselves architects, and the last ones who could get away with trying it are those that are members of the riai. They'd be booted out immediately.

DOCARCH wrote: »

No...they cannot!

Straight off the RIAI website:

Regulation of the Title Architect
Frequently Asked Questions
Contents
Introduction ............................................................................................................................................................... 1
1. Why is the title ‘architect’ regulated? ................................................................................................................. 2
a) Why is a process of Registration needed? ........................................................................................................ 2
b) How does the Building Control Act protect consumers? ................................................................................... 2
c) Why is the RIAI now writing to people practising as architects who are not on the Register?........................... 3
2. Who needs to register as an architect? .............................................................................................................. 3
d) Who do the provisions about the title architect apply to? .................................................................................. 3
e) Is all use of the word architect regulated? ......................................................................................................... 3
f) I am qualified and registered in another State, do I have to register to be based here? ................................... 3
g) I don’t run my own practice, I am an employee, do I have to register? ............................................................. 4
h) I describe myself as an architect because I have my qualifications, but I am not actually providing
architectural services, can I continue to do this? ........................................................................................................ 4
3. Can I register, and if so how? .............................................................................................................................. 4
i) How do I register if I have recognised qualifications from within the Irish State? .............................................. 4
j) How do I register if I have been practising as an architect but do not have recognised qualifications? ............ 4
k) How do I register if I have qualifications/recognition as an architect from an EU/EEA Member State? ............ 6
l) How do I register if I have undertaken my qualifications outside the EU/EEA or in more than one country? .... 7
4. Other issues .......................................................................................................................................................... 8
m) What is the difference between RIAI Membership and Registration? ............................................................... 8
n) I can’t/don’t wish to register, what about my business? .................................................................................... 8
Introduction
Prior to the commencement of the Building Control Act 2007 there was no legal regulation of use of the
title of Architect. Any individual could call him or herself an architect and offer services to the public as
such. This situation failed to provide protection to the consumer who had no way of knowing:
a. whether service providers describing themselves as architects had been objectively assessed
as possessing the knowledge, skill and competence required to deliver architectural services, or
b. whether service providers presenting as architects were subject to a code of conduct with
adequate measures for client recourse..
Part 3 of the Building Control Act 2007, which sets out the process for the Registration of Architects, has
been introduced by the State to address this failure.
The following set of ‘Frequently Asked Questions’ is provided to give some clarity with regard to use and
regulation of the title architect. The questions are set out in four groups: N5.7_ (4) D _ FAQ re regulation of title architect_22_11_2011 p. 2 of 8
The Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland
The Registration Body for Architects in Ireland
1. Why is the title ‘architect’ regulated?
2. Who needs to register as an architect?
3. Can I register, and if so how?
4. Other issues
1. Why is the title ‘architect’ regulated?
a) Why is a process of Registration needed?
Registration of the title architect is needed to protect consumers and to promote quality in the built
environment.
Until the enactment of the Building Control Act in 2007 there was no control on who could claim to be an
architect and provide services on that basis. Unfortunately, at times this left the unsuspecting consumer
vulnerable to poor service and low standards without adequate recourse. For example:
• Opinion research carried out for the RIAI prior to the introduction of the Act revealed that 87% of
the public held the view that persons using the title ‘architect’ had to have appropriate academic
and professional qualifications even though that was not the case;
• In 2004, the year prior to the publication of the Building Control Bill 2005, the RIAI received 141
complaints from the public about the activities of people claiming to be architects, who did not in
fact hold recognised architectural qualifications;
• 80% of all of those complaints received by the RIAI in 2004 related to such unqualified
‘architects’.
This issue was brought to a head by a March 2005 RTE Prime Time special which showed the great
difficulties that can be caused to unsuspecting consumers by unqualified and unregulated (i.e. through a
code of conduct) people claiming to be architects.
That year, the then Minister for the Environment announced that he would introduce legislation to
ensure that only suitably qualified and assessed people could be included on a Register of Architects
and offer services to the public on this basis.
b) How does the Building Control Act protect consumers?
The Act establishes a number of different systems to protect the consumer’s interests.
• Defined Level of Competence
All architects on the Register are required to reach an internationally recognised level of
knowledge, skill and competence that has been independently assessed. In the event of
difficulties arising an architect can be judged against this standard and appropriate action taken.
• Code of Conduct and the Professional Conduct Committee
The Act provides for a statutory procedure to deal with consumer complaints, namely the
Professional Conduct Committee (PCC). The committee is independent in its decision making
and is comprised of a majority of non-architects nominated by the Minister. The PCC has the
powers, rights and privileges of a High Court Judge in relation to enforcing the attendance of
witnesses, examination under oath and compelling the production of documents. The Act puts
in place mechanisms to deal with complaints relating to poor professional performance as well
as to professional misconduct. N5.7_ (4) D _ FAQ re regulation of title architect_22_11_2011 p. 3 of 8
The Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland
The Registration Body for Architects in Ireland
• Mediation
Many of the issues raised with the RIAI by consumers/clients relate to poor professional
performance and the Act provides for mediation where these matters can be resolved relatively
quickly between the parties.
c) Why is the RIAI now writing to people practising as architects who are not on the
Register?
Under the Building Control Act, only people on the Register can call themselves ‘architect’ in a manner
suggesting they are registered and the RIAI is required to ensure that this is the case. The register was
established in November 2009 and adequate time has elapsed for individuals to take reasonable steps
to regularise their positions.
The RIAI has been conducting nationwide research to ascertain whether all of those using the title
‘architect’ are in fact registered as implied. Through this painstaking process we have compiled a list of
individuals who may be using, or have used, the title architect without being registered. At this stage,
the RIAI’s objective is to ensure that all of those who may be misusing the title are fully aware of the
legal situation and the options available to them.
2. Who needs to register as an architect?
d) Who do the provisions about the title architect apply to?
• Anyone using the title architect, either alone or in combination with any other words or letters, or
name, title or description, implying that the person is so registered, and
• Anyone who practices or carries on business under any name, style or title containing the word
“architect”
e) Is all use of the word architect regulated?
No, certain professional titles are permitted:
(a) “landscape architect”,
(b) “naval architect”,
(c) “architectural technician”,
(d) “architectural technologist”,
(e) “interior design architect”
f) I am qualified and registered in another State, do I have to register to be

e) Is all use of the word architect regulated?
No, certain professional titles are permitted:
(a) “landscape architect”,
(b) “naval architect”,
(c) “architectural technician”,
(d) “architectural technologist”,
(e) “interior design architect”
f) I am qualified and registered in another State, do I have to register to be

mrsWhippy wrote: »

Some great points here Victor, thanks.

I wish I knew how much of an engineer was needed Does that depend on the complexity of the build structure? What about heating/ventilation/energy management etc, is that usually the architects remit? Or do we need a separate energy consultant for that?

Heating, energy etc varies depending on your architect. Some have trained in passive house design for instance whereas others have fairly limited knowledge and just aim to comply with legislation. We're using an architect but also spending about 1k with an energy consultant

To be honest Mrs Whippy, I am stunned at those prices. I am building my house at the moment but I am under the old regs and from looking at what you have been quoted I am very glad that I am.
I used an Arch technician for drawings and planning and have an engineer supervising, doing my details and signing off on the project. I have an energy consultant. I am project managing, it's a lot of work, but it's an eye opener to the cost of building and what the professionals are making.
There's no point telling you how much I've spent because regs have changed and what I am doing can't be done now apparently.

Of course the architects here are going to tell you that this is a fair quote, they would quote the same most likely if they thought they'd get it. It like turkey's voting for Christmas otherwise. The new regs are a windfall for archetects. Seriously how many hours of actual work is there in it for them and what is the hourly rate. Everybody wants to get as much of your mortgage as they can.

The only advice I can give you is to shop around, big firms with fancy offices have big overheads and staff. Most of the work will be done by technicians. You pay for the office, the technician, the archetect, Range Rovers, secretary, accountants, solicitors and all the other associated services.

By the time you are done with that quote and all the stuff it doesn't include there won't be much change from 50k. That's a whole lot of paperwork. And this calculating by percentage of build is grossly unfair. It should be percentage of materials. Or better still an hourly rate and an estimate of hours required.

Try to find an Archetect working alone from a home office who will give you personal service and advise you on the most cost effective way to proceed. The more he or she can do and the less people involved the cheaper it will be.

As for tendering builders, this is another area where you can lose a lot of money. It is important to get a good builder but it is also important to get one that gives a fair price for labor and doesn't put a premium on materials. I'm putting in a passive slab foundation at the moment. The difference between my highest and lowest quote is €10,000. Will your Archetect find those kind of savings for you at each stage of the build or will they just give the job to one of their trusted builders who knows he's got the job anyway and price accordingly.

Its your money, trust nobody!