"Dog wardens have more power than telecoms regulator"

vinnyfitz · 19-08-2002 1:03pm #1

Title of an article by by John McManus in today's Irish Times - ireland.com which you have to pay for online. I'm not going to type all of a very interesting article.

Apparently during the drafting of the Communications Bill the regulator objecting to the fact that she has to go through the tortuous process of taking a prosecution through the courts and in significant cases getting the Director of Public Prosecutions to take the case.

Under FOI the paper has found out she wrote to the Deaprtment saying "If litter wardens can be entrusted with the power to levy on-the-spot fines I'm not sure why the future Electronic Communcations Commission can not". She also apparently wrote "The ODTR would welcome the opportunity to discuss the issues in greater depth: even obtaining the same powers as litter wardens would be a significant breakthrough."

The full article is worth a read.

spongebob · 19-08-2002 4:38pm

I heard it were the turd time she told the department that.

M

vinnyfitz · 19-08-2002 5:31pm

This fiasco would drive you barking mad!

spongebob · 19-08-2002 5:39pm

A litter (or dog) warden is a kinda mini super meta-regulator in its own area with a van saying litter (dog) warden on its side, so it is.

The ODTR were on the ball when they spotted that one.......and it wasn't on a friday or saturday in Temple Bar either coz litter wardens surrender to McDonalds and Supermacs on those nights.

M

Xian · 20-08-2002 9:44pm

sorry if I'm jumping the gun on you vf, but I've taken the liberty of extracting the juice from the piece: it's too good to become yesterday's news just yet and belongs on public record here:

...correspondence released under the Freedom of Information Act...One letter to the Minister for Public Enterprise - from the Chambers of Commerce last April - welcomed the stiff fines proposed in the draft legislation proposed in the draft legislation while warning against diluting them in the final legislation.
Another letter - from the Telecommunications and Internet Federation (TIF) - expressed reservations about the proposed penalties which it claimed could be disproportionate.
The then Minister, Ms O'Rourke, replied to both letters. She wrote to the Chambers of Commerce happily taking credit for the proposed fines saying it "brings the penalties for breaches of regulatory obligations in the communications sector into line with the penalties laid down in the Competition Act for breaches of competition law".
The TIF was told not to worry, minor breaches would not be prosecuted and that in any case it was up to the courts and not the regulator to decide what sort of penalty would be imposed.
Both the Chambers of Commerce and the TIF were informed that "the enforcement provision of the Act represents a significantly enhanced enforcement mechanism which will enable the new Commission to enforce its regulatory decisions in today's rapidly evolving communications sector".
...
The Government argues that it would be unconstitutional to allow the Commission directly impose fines, but this argument does not hold much water , according to Etain Doyle, the Director of Telecommunications Regulation...
"If litter wardens can be entrusted with a power to levy on-the-spot fines, it is not clear why the future Electronic Communications Commission can not," she told the Department in a note released under the FOI Act.
"The ODTR would welcome the opportunity to discuss the issues in greater depth: even obtaining the same powers as a litter warden would be a significant breakthrough." she added.

Slutmonkey57b · 21-08-2002 8:43am

It's consistantly amazing how much the Irish govenernments (they're all the same) manage to ALWAYS ignore the experience of other countries when attempting something. All they have to do is dig out the odd newspaper. Or lean over and ask their counterparts across the EU Parliament (*cough*) a simple question (Oi! Frenchy! Do those fast train things work, eh?)

All they had to do was read the Times for the past 2 years and they'd have seen "oh look.. let the companies do what they want... get nowhere.... start fining... get results.... Hmmm."

dahamsta · 21-08-2002 10:09am

Very true. They seem to consistently implement all the bad laws from the countries around them - particularly the UK - and ignore any actual progress being made.

Do you know what p1sses me off the most though? Hearing other countries complain about a lack of infrastructure and services. Not because they don't have a right to complain, but because it's so embarassing to hear them complaining about something we're not even CLOSE to over here.

Anyone see last night's Channel 4 News? After a report on a show earlier in the week about "the digital divide" - lord save us - they received a raft of complaints from people in urban areas who couldn't get broadband. If they only knew what it was like to live over here!

adam

SkepticOne · 21-08-2002 10:45am

Originally posted by dahamsta
Do you know what p1sses me off the most though? Hearing other countries complain about a lack of infrastructure and services. Not because they don't have a right to complain, but because it's so embarassing to hear them complaining about something we're not even CLOSE to over here.

This is a very real problem for us. At the EU level, they are concerned that the typical home broadband connection is a mere 1 mbit/sec and that it is too expensive at an average of 45 euros per month. They consider this to be a serious problem that will have economic repercussions if not addressed since parts of Asia and North America have better value and higher speed services.

spongebob · 21-08-2002 11:15am

Below an example of what the EU is scared about. Our rulers here in the E-Tub of Europe ®™©, are not even at the starting gate.

Korea has 5 MILLION ADSL subscribers in a population of 48 Million. Thats now!

Unlike here in the E-Tub of Europe ®™©, the Korean government has a strategy and plans to spend $10Bn over the next 3 years to get VDSL (not ADSL) to 80% of households. VDSL will give ya ~6/6.5Mbit at ADSL distances (ADSL works up to 2.5 miles).

Remember that this VDSL will be 100,000 times faster than the famous 'Eircom Hi-Speed' 64k thing of which we are very proud in this country given how wet it is and cold too.
' Eircom Hi-Speed' is the fastest offering available to 80% of the Irish population at present and there will be nothing else with 80% availibility here in 3 years, ......unlike Korea.

This groovy technology is being deployed rapidly with a coherent government strategy behind it, backed by money and vision and sh1t.

The EU is right, we should be afraid.

M

spongebob · 21-08-2002 11:31am

The product with 80% availability in Korea will be 100 times faster than the product with 80% availibilty here.

(BTW no other European Telecoms Carrier describes ISDN as Hi-Speed or anything of the sort, do we have some schtrong schtuff here)

M

SkepticOne · 21-08-2002 12:45pm

In terms of our immediate economic future, what worries me is the impression we give to US multinationals considering investing here. We only hear about the ones that, on balance, decide to invest here.

What happens if our economic mainstay of final-stage manufacturing and boxing disappears and we need to attract genuine knowlege based industries.

Right now, only a minority of people in the US have broadband, but I suspect that among managers in high-tech companies the proportion is very high. What are they going to think of a country where the regulator considers ISDN as a type of broadband and the most basic of ADSL offerings is the most expensive in the world and only available in limited places (and has only been available for a few months).

They are going to think that we are an incompetant people, capable only of doing basic assembly work. Of course, if we were not so dependent on them for basic economic survival I would not care what they think, but this would require us to develop our own knowlege-based industries which would, in turn, depend on having these broadband services in place.

I know staff at Eircom will probably be laughing at the above, but ultimately, their jobs depend on a population willing to pay huge bills for rubbish services. If the economy fails, there can be no doubt that there will be massive redundancies at Eircom.

spongebob · 21-08-2002 1:06pm

Churchill Insurance (big operation) set up in Galway recently, call centre op with 100's of jobbies dependent on Telecoms.

They were briefed on the 'Western Digital Corridor' This is a fibre ring laid Dub-Gal-Shannon-Dub 2 years ago by Ocean with mucho Dept Of Comms wonga to help it along.

There it lies to this day unlit. It runs within 30 metres of Churchills front door , cannot and will not be used (by ESAT the current owner) . It can cater for all of Galway/Athlone/Shannon for all the good that does us. I call that planning.

M

Dangger · 21-08-2002 1:10pm

If the economy fails, there can be no doubt that there will be massive redundancies at Eircom.

Hmmm, I reckon its a safe bet that there are going to to be massive redundancies at Eircom either way. They are far too overstaffed as it is when you compare the average number of employees per line against other European operators. I've heard is stated that out of the 11,000 or so staff they have, they need closer to 7,000. There are also questions arising out of the kind of people that they currently have in the current 11,000. Many have been protected by ESOT the Employers union. More so now since ESOT have a 14.9% holding in the company.

Imagine the story...."IrelandOffline have their way, and see flat rate Internet introduced. As a result Eircom have axed almost 4,000 full time staff". The spin mysters would have a field day! The truth of course is that they have not sufficiently re-organised themselves since privatisation and its no easy task with such a powerful union.

MDR · 21-08-2002 2:03pm

Imagine the story...."IrelandOffline have their way, and see flat rate Internet introduced. As a result Eircom have axed almost 4,000 full time staff". The spin mysters would have a field day! The truth of course is that they have not sufficiently re-organised themselves since privatisation and its no easy task with such a powerful union.

It reminds me of United Airlines the U.S.'s second biggest carrier, it is partially owned by the union (30-40% me thinks), they aer steaming towards banruptacy but everytime the management try to rationalise the unions block it, anaylsts have never seen a union so hell bent on self-distruction, except maybe team air lingus.

dahamsta · 21-08-2002 2:18pm

Hmmm, I reckon its a safe bet that there are going to to be massive redundancies at Eircom either way.

I agree. In fact, I believe that it's the primary reason The Good Doctor was brought in. I wonder will the ESOT - ironic name - be as supportive when he starts hacking at their membership.

By the way, an interesting nugget thrown up in the C4 report yesterday: France has invested GBP£1bn in broadband, which C4 contrasted against the UK investment of GBP£35m. The presenter tried to shame the Minister responsible with this figure. How much have we actually invested?

http://www.channel4.com/news/

We really have to start tying down our Government. We really have to start getting them to make unrefutable statements about the importance of IT and connectivity, and then we have to start putting them on the spot, in public: Why haven't you invested more? Ok, the wallet is a bit thin: Why haven't you tightened or loosened the law accordingly?

Of course, the answer to the latter is quite simple: corruption and incompetence. And the negotations go right to the top here, it's not just lackies sitting around a table, it's full Government ministers bowing to pressure from Eircom, Esat and the aforementioned self-destructive unions. So our Cabinet is corrupt, our Cabinet is incompetent.

adam

SkepticOne · 21-08-2002 2:20pm

Originally posted by Dangger
I've heard is stated that out of the 11,000 or so staff they have, they need closer to 7,000. There are also questions arising out of the kind of people that they currently have in the current 11,000. Many have been protected by ESOT the Employers union. More so now since ESOT have a 14.9% holding in the company.

Well, I would reckon that most of these are probably fairly safe while there's an economy to extract money out of. No doubt the owners would like to be rid of the dead wood, but as you say, various agreements prevent this. However, if the money dries up, all these go out the window. There may be court cases, but you can't pay staff with money you don't have. All depends on the judge's disposition, of course.

MDR · 21-08-2002 2:29pm

Would Dr. Phil Nolan be offended if we went and talked to ESOT ?

dahamsta · 21-08-2002 2:34pm

Would Dr. Phil Nolan be offended if we went and talked to ESOT ?

Who cares? Anyway, if anyone's in charge of offending that tosser, it's me. (And possibly DeVore.)

adam

MDR · 21-08-2002 2:54pm

it might be a good idea to start top feeding unions as well ...

vinnyfitz · 21-08-2002 3:01pm

Now General Secretary of the Irish Congress of Trade unions he is a former head of the CWU and was very involved in the initial negotiation of the ESOT and knows a lot abotht he whole telecoms thing.

It would definitely be worth talking ot him as we run up to the negotiations of a new national agreement (PCW expires this autumn) Congress should strongly support flat rate - keeps down cost of living, contributes to a knowledge economy and a learning society etc.

ednwireland · 21-08-2002 3:31pm

what amazes is me is that every topic on this forum basically boils down to the same thing. The politicians in this country are too scared to do anything because of limited resources (this is a small country witha VVVV small economy. beleive me if your outside dublin, cork, limerick and galway there is so liitle business it's unbeleivable that anyone ever believed in the 'celtic tiger'
We all complain about the government - all these issues were out in the open before the last election yet you voted for them.( Most people here in Donegal were conned by the pre-election giveaway anyway)
The only way to convince these people is to take their jobs away unfortunately we missed the last opportunity.
Beleive me the labour government looks like a dynamo compared to all the political parties here in ireland ( beleive me that is a real insult).
The question really is why did the government sell the only thing that could have developed an e-infrastructure for this island ?
where they bought (thats my best guess) or were they just stupid ?
The government to me just seem like a cosy club that will only do the absolute minimum when things get really really bad so don't hold your breath.
Just wrote again to all the northwest td's sligo and donegal and got one read receipt back !!!!!!

MDR · 21-08-2002 3:44pm

beleive me if your outside dublin, cork, limerick and galway there is so liitle business it's unbeleivable that anyone ever believed in the 'celtic tiger'

Given that about 60% of the population live within the hinterland of these urban ares are you suprised. I can assure if look at our import/export figures, this litttle country ours does quite alot of business in spite of itself, however that doesn't translate into government revenue, are government has a tiny budget to work within, I don't think the wider community appreciates quite how small it is.

We all complain about the government - all these issues were out in the open before the last election yet you voted for them.(

When faced with the alternative, or thereby lack of credable alternative, baldy noonan (incompetant), Quinn (regressive), Greens (good bunch of peeps did well, but not in government), Adams (murdering bastard) etc, who exactily should have voted for ????
Bertie the Dublin Taoseach etc, was by far the best of the a very bad bunch, better the devil you know and all that.

Enough rant from me ...

SkepticOne · 21-08-2002 5:21pm

Originally posted by ednwireland
The question really is why did the government sell the only thing that could have developed an e-infrastructure for this island ?
where they bought (thats my best guess) or were they just stupid ?

http://act.iol.ie/press-releases/broadband.html

The Minister for Public Enterprise, Mary O' Rourke TD, today stated that Co. Donegal would benefit from the roll out of new technology thanks to the extension of the National Broadband Network.

The Minister stated:

"Connection to the National Broadband Network, which will be available to most people in Donegal in the next year, will make the Information Society a reality in the county. This will bring the opportunity for enormous social and economic benefits."

This was in 1998. I think they really believed that this would deliver the sort of broadband that is available in other countries.

It did not bring about the Information Society in Donegal because there was no means provided for getting at this fibre.

Eircom now own this National Broadband Network, however it is more profitable for them to charge by the minute for ISDN.

Even a company looking for a leased line was given a 5 year lead time a couple of years ago. Ordinary users are excluded because of the lack of DSL in that area.

spongebob · 21-08-2002 5:25pm

1. Donegal shoulda been rocking 3 years ago.

2. WTF is 'The National Broadband Network' ????????? where is it?

SkepticOne · 21-08-2002 5:40pm

Originally posted by Muck
1. Donegal shoulda been rocking 3 years ago.

2. WTF is 'The National Broadband Network' ????????? where is it?

Eircom now own it. Even if they didn't, they still own 99% of the last mile. Like the western digital corridor, I would imagine most of it is unlit.

BTW, because of the use of the term 'broadband' to denote cablemodems, ADSL and such, broadband is rarely used outside Ireland in developed countries to describe this type of backbone network.

"Dog wardens have more power than telecoms regulator"

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