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The Enemies of Reason

  • 23-08-2009 7:59pm
    #1
    lankysexybeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭


    we've discussed "the god delusion" time and time again but what about the "the enemies of reason". i'm hoping we can use this as a place to discuss our opinions.

    i'll start us off

    i thought that as usual richard made some amazing points but overall undermined the validity of his arguments by treating all of his interviewees like 3 year olds. He arrogantly undermines not only there beliefs but everything about them.

    he really disappointed me when he announced that stories of people have been cured through homeopathy were "good anecdotes". he's done this before (with different healing stories) and although, i don't believe homeopathy works. but don't dismiss evidence like that just cause it doesn't agree with your view. it would have been easy for him to say that these healings could be put down to the placebo effect.

    i did enjoy however how he pointed out the pure ridiculousness of certain new age beliefs and the scene in the church with the medium was very well done. i didn't actually think anyone still fell for that tripe, since all of those shows showing how it's done.

    in general i thought it was typical Dawkin and that it will unfortunately be picked on mostly by people who will simply repeat what he has said ignoring it's actual validity. it might even become a new thing that the churchs point to say that Atheism don't know anything, they just repeat what dawkin has said.


Comments

  • #2
    Overblood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    lankysexybeast wrote: »
    i thought that as usual richard made some amazing points but overall undermined the validity of his arguments by treating all of his interviewees like 3 year olds. He arrogantly undermines not only there beliefs but everything about them.

    He does get very sulky doesn't he!

    "You obviously haven't a clue about evolution"

    "Oh but it's so obvious"

    etc.
    lankysexybeast wrote: »
    he really disappointed me when he announced that stories of people have been cured through homeopathy were "good anecdotes". he's done this before (with different healing stories) and although, i don't believe homeopathy works. but don't dismiss evidence like that just cause it doesn't agree with your view.

    Anecdotes & hearsay are not evidence.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence#Scientific_context

    I haven't seen the program in ages so I can't really remember much. Isn't that the one with Ted Haggard?


  • #3
    lankysexybeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭lankysexybeast


    Overblood wrote: »
    Anecdotes are not evidence.

    they wern't anecdotes they were people who were sick and are now healed although there was no study done it as far as i know people were still healed. as i said hough this could be down to the placebo effect but he doesn't say that. he simply dismissed then as anecdotes which is the point i'm making.

    he did the same thing with some healing pool that cured some cripled people. he just referred to the stories as anecdotes.


  • #4
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,087 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    lankysexybeast wrote: »
    they wern't anecdotes they were people who were sick and are now healed although there was no study done it as far as i know people were still healed.

    It's the fact that there was no study done and it's all "as far as we know" that makes such stories anecdotes.


  • #5
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    FYI - thread from when the documentary came out.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055130779


  • #6
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    lankysexybeast wrote: »
    they wern't anecdotes they were people who were sick and are now healed although there was no study done

    Are you sure you know what an anecdote is?

    Homeopathy needs to prove itself in double blind trials like any other treatment, otherwise it is anecdotes, hearsay and rumour.


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  • #7
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Zillah wrote: »
    Are you sure you know what an anecdote is?

    Homeopathy needs to prove itself in double blind trials like any other treatment, otherwise it is anecdotes, hearsay and rumour.

    Yeah it does, but amazingly during past investigations into homeopathy it was discovered that 'something' was going on - obviously not what the homeopaths were saying but it seemed there was some phenomenon entrenched within the dilution process.


    Note : It was purely a chemistry one.Who knows, one day we may be grateful to homeopathy because we figured out the secrets of renewable energy.
    Nah...
    Get's googling in the hope of some linky or reference...


  • #8
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Malty_T wrote: »
    it was discovered that 'something' was going on - obviously not what the homeopaths were saying but it seemed there was some phenomenon entrenched within the dilution process.
    In broad terms, it was discovered that the concentration of money in the bank accounts of the homeopaths was being strengthened -- in a most unhomeopathic manner -- in direct proportion to the wastage of the bank accounts of the believers.

    In this, it shares much with other false-belief systems.


  • #9
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Gawdddddd...

    Googling homeopathy is ....'insightful'

    [QUOTE=Linky]. Homeopathy does not cure by suppressing the condition but by eradicating it in the direction of cure.....whether their energy quality has improved or not is a clear indicator of how things are going, the energy of the patient has a direct relation to DOC [direction of cure]
    [/QUOTE]

    Anyhu,
    Newscientist to the rescue :)


  • #10
    MackDeToaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 330 ✭✭MackDeToaster


    Homeopathy not a cure, says WHO
    ..
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8211925.stm

    Mayo Clinic..
    http://mayoclinproc.highwire.org/content/82/1/69.abstract
    ..
    "The evidence from rigorous clinical trials of any type of therapeutic or preventive intervention testing homeopathy for childhood and adolescence ailments is not convincing enough for recommendations in any condition. "

    Some phenomenon entrenched within the dilution process ? Puleeese. The entire water having memory thing is an idiotic premise, if it were the case one crap in the sea could render all the oceans a sewer, one drop of poison could kill us all.
    Water-memory is the foundation of homeopathy and once that's undermined, the entire edifice comes tumbling down. There can be no active ingredients, there is zero evidence of any phenomenon other than the placebo effect, the entire thing is snakeoil and its promotion in the face of real medicine results in deaths and as such it should be stamped out as the harmful ignorant voodoo it is.


  • #11
    Overblood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    MackDeToaster wrote: »
    The entire water having memory thing is an idiotic premise, if it were the case one crap in the sea could render all the oceans a sewer, one drop of poison could kill us all.

    Ah but you see, the water must be put into a container and struck on a hard surface ~10 times to activate it. Or maybe shaken ten times I'm not sure.


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  • #12
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Homeopathy: The Test - programme summary

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathy.shtml


    This was a good show where James Randi put down $1m USD of his hard-earned for someone to conclusively demonstrate the properties of Homeopathy in a double-blind test.

    I believe the video is knocking about.


  • #13
    lankysexybeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭lankysexybeast


    Zillah wrote: »
    Are you sure you know what an anecdote is?

    sorry wont be on much in the next few days but i do understand. what i'm trying to point out is that we can't ignore that it has helped to alleviate human suffering and that all's he would have needed to say was something about the placebo effect and that saying it the way he did undermined his point and any form of solidarity. i probably shouldn't have used the word evidence didn't mean it in it's purest form


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