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Dublin Airport City "People Mover" Orgasm
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25-04-2008 10:53pm#1I saw the sexy animated movie and I thought back to the Aer Rinta plan of 15 years back to build a light rail system to connect all the car parks around the airport (and nothing else).
Being naturally cynical of semi-states, at first I thought this latest Albert O'Speerism and the "people mover" seemed like a good idea.
But it's looking basically the same thing as the old Aer Rinta plan except with office buildings on top of the carparks.
I think the whole "city" and "people mover" part is a black flag project to just get more car parking for the airport. I could be wrong though, but this being "Oirland" an all...0
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It has raised its head more recently than 15 years ago.
There is a possibility that it will all be tied into Metro North - the Metro West Harristown Stop is at the Blue Long Term Car Park.0 -
It looks pretty basic really. Just building acres of office and appartment blocks beside the airport and then some light rail and metro connection to the airport/city. It's not exactly rocket science. Though, such a development is required for Dublin if Ireland wants to stay economically competitive, but I hope they actually try to be innovative about the whole thing. For the moment I can't see anything in it that strikes me as been innovative.
With a project like this I would like to see something that makes me say "Wow, that's a really novel idea. I would never have thought about doing it like that". The fear of course is that it may become a concrete jungle, particularly at night time when the workers leave for their real homes.0 -
Why a "people mover"? Why not just a light rail or a Luas line and while were at it how about using it to connect the Northern Line with Metro North?
The one thing I felt missing from T21 was a luas from Howth Junction to the Airport Metro. This could be it with a bit of lateral thinking.0 -
Orgasm?0
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I disagree and with DAA all the best with this. I would hope sense would prevail and any transport within the 'city' is fully integrated with metro etc.
Dublin Airport could easily become a major player as a hub if the will was there. Perfect location-look up on a clear blue day and see all those transatlantic flights which departed Frankfurt/Paris/London and ask why they can't depart from Dublin instead.
I am delighted DAA have some feckin ambition and want to grab some business, like Munich is trying do do, and soon Berlin Brandenburg International will be looking for some action too.
There's no reason we can't capitalise much more on our physical position between the US and Continental Europe.0 -
Seconded. We shot ourselves in the foot with the Shannon stopover. Why exactly we allowed the political process to drive business from Ireland for the sake of a stuffed airport payroll in Clare was never clear to me. But, now that its gone, (thanks to Open Skies and not to the Government coming to its senses as it actually lobbied on behalf of Shannon) I think its no more than reasonable that we should go for it.I am delighted DAA have some feckin ambition and want to grab some business, like Munich is trying do do, and soon Berlin Brandenburg International will be looking for some action too.
There's no reason we can't capitalise much more on our physical position between the US and Continental Europe.
I'd see only three problems. Firstly, Open Skies is with us and we're still building a terminal and operating with the stunted Dublin Airport runway (which we also have Shannon to thank for).
Secondly, how long more is it reasonable to expect to see grow in air traffic?
Thirdly, the proposal involves some idea about a third level institution specialising in aviation studies. Dublin is not exactly short of third level institutions, so I don't see the point of starting another. Fine, if DIT feel there's space to offer courses in this sector (I've no idea if they do at present). But, all thiings being equal, I wouldn't see what's gained by a new institution.0 -
Nostradamus wrote: »Why a "people mover"? Why not just a light rail or a Luas line and while were at it how about using it to connect the Northern Line with Metro North?
The one thing I felt missing from T21 was a luas from Howth Junction to the Airport Metro. This could be it with a bit of lateral thinking.
The 'people mover' refers to the movement from the office space to the gates. Why on earth would the DAA propose something for lands they don't own.
Secondly it had been discussed to death on other threads.0 -
Best to convert the Howth branch to Luas/metro (same difference) and run trams from Howth to the city centre/Tallaght/Lissenhall using metro north/west. Northern Line would benefit from eliminating conflicts and you'd get much more connectivity to/from airport and environs.The one thing I felt missing from T21 was a luas from Howth Junction to the Airport Metro. This could be it with a bit of lateral thinking.
Sensible and doable. Let's hope the DTA have the balls in a decade to do it.0 -
All I could do was laugh at this animation at how rediculous it looks.
Reminds me a bit of Seamrog City:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaSLNBOphpE
The way previous farcical large Irish state projects have run in the past e.g. Luas, M50, Port tunnel I wount be surprised if this thing bankrupted the counrty and was abandoned half way through.
Nice animation but Dream on!0 -
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That's the spirit. No wonder we are "Joe Average" and never build anything daring or overly ambitious. How depressing.0
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Nostradamus wrote: »Yes, it's a new term to describe the climax one attains upon reading a flashy proposal by a public body. You want it to be the full experience, but you'll know it'll end in very little.
I really worry about people sometimes. And then I think feckit, it's only on the internet.
On the subject as presented, I am interested to see how this will tie in with Fingal's plans to make Swords the second biggest city in the country with their plans around the end of Metro North.
I'm also intrigued as to why we need another zillion square feet of commercial space when you can't hardly give it away in the Dublin area at the moment.
all of this while big and visionary on the surface strikes me as nothing more than sticking plaster. Dublin Airport is fortuitious in not being the worst airport in western Europe only because Heathrow is. I'd prefer that the airport authority got on with the business of running and building an airport that works for air travellers which in my opinion the current one doesn't, not really, rather than building a whole pile of sexy looking office space that no one really needs with people movers when transport around the airport is lacking.
murphaph, our problem is that we fundamentally lack substance. We don't even do style either. this is lacking both style and substance.
Schuhart, a bit of vision involving a transport link from Shannon to Dublin 30 years ago might have avoided the fiasco with the stopover. BUt that involved vision too and we didn't get it.
also, the one other thing which is standing out to me is it's yet another go it alone project by someone or other when the problem this country has is a shocking lack of joined up thinking.
damnit I think I'll go to afterhours it might cheer me up a little.0 -
In fairness, the idea that the stopover might have been mitigated by an unspecified "transport link" connecting Shannon to Dublin is just silly. What would have avoided the fiasco with the stopover would have been not having a stopover.Schuhart, a bit of vision involving a transport link from Shannon to Dublin 30 years ago might have avoided the fiasco with the stopover. But that involved vision too and we didn't get it.
If we really want to learn from the past, I think its important to distinguish between vision and delusion.0 -
Actually, it isn't really. A decent high speed link from Shannon to Dublin City centre would probably be as fast as some of the express bus services to the city were before they started routing a pile of them through the city centre and before the M1, for example. Even now it's still a comedy that it can take 90 minutes for an express bus to get to O'Connell Street from Dublin Airport. A train from Shannon would actually have been faster.
The point is the stopover was not the key issue. The key issue was the lack of cities you could fly into in the States from Ireland which was also a key provision in the bilateral. The stopover is used as a stick to beat Shannon with - but it hampered development of Shannon more than it ever hampered Dublin or Cork because quite simply it allowed Aer Rianta not to actually do anything about widening Shannon's userbase beyond the guaranteed Yanks market. See where it got them?
That being said, Dublin Airport is still an airport at odds with the interests of the flying public and I stand over the comment that I made that I'd prefer the DAA looked into issues there rather than grandiose schemes for office space which frankly is not necessary right now. We have loads of it.0 -
I'm sorry, you're just persisting in delusion. Firstly, any time I've gotten the airport express its taken a lot less than 90 minutes. However, what's really strange is your idea that connecting O'Connell Street to the Dublin Airport is such an intractable problem that a feasible alternative solution would be an 135 mile high speed rail link across the country.Actually, it isn't really. A decent high speed link from Shannon to Dublin City centre would probably be as fast as some of the express bus services to the city were before they started routing a pile of them through the city centre and before the M1, for example. Even now it's still a comedy that it can take 90 minutes for an express bus to get to O'Connell Street from Dublin Airport. A train from Shannon would actually have been faster.
Can I suggest that you're doing your credibility no favours if you choose to persist in that line of argument.
I'm sorry, but this statement is more significant for what its trying to forget than what its trying to say. In particular, the idea that the stopover (read what you've said) hampered Shannon more than Dublin and Cork is ludicrous. What you are effectively saying is 'they became so used to the idea of robbing you blind that they actually never believed they'd ever need to work for a living again'.The point is the stopover was not the key issue. The key issue was the lack of cities you could fly into in the States from Ireland which was also a key provision in the bilateral. The stopover is used as a stick to beat Shannon with - but it hampered development of Shannon more than it ever hampered Dublin or Cork because quite simply it allowed Aer Rianta not to actually do anything about widening Shannon's userbase beyond the guaranteed Yanks market. See where it got them?
The real losers from the Stopover arrangement was a place called Ireland, that rarely gets a looking. One of the gainers was Manchester, delighted that we were happy to send them so much business.
As to 'Dublin Airport City', I'm more interested in looking at the numbers than some vague 'I wish they'd stick to the knitting' comment. I actually wonder if its generally worth investing so much in aviation, given doubts as to how much air traffic is actually sustainable. I think its too late for us to move to get benefit from Open Skies, as our Government spend the lead-in time lobbying unsuccessfully to keep the stopover. But I suggest that's the real issue at stake here - will people still be flying as much as they do now in ten years time?0 -
Look, Schuhart, you're entitled to your opinion, like I am entitled to mine. However, I disagree with you and there were a bunch of reasons why I did. and yes, I have taken well over 90 minutes to get from Dublin airport in a so called express bus on more than one occasion and the only thing that has made one of them even remotely reliable is the Port Tunnel, end of story. AFAIR the distance is less than ten miles. In any case, the point is moot now. We have a dysfunctional airport in Dublin through which far too many people have to suffer travelling because instead of standing back and seeing what's best for the country as a whole, we stuck sticking plasters on Shannon, on Dublin and built airports in Galway, Knock, Sligo and Donegal.
With respect to Shannon and the stop over, you're dreaming if you think it's that simple. Ultimately the stop over was bad for Shannon because it screwed around with policy for Shannon Airport. As for what was good for Ireland as a whole i would argue that the stop over such as it existed was only a small part of the problem and the lack of options available in the US was a greater problem as a whole for the country. I know people who have been screaming for a transatlantic link out of Cork for years. They are still not going to get it for the foreseeable future that I can see. It is extremely simplistic to assume that the stopover in Shannon was the root of all evil here - it is only a easily targetted part of the whole.
As for Dublin Airport City, I think it's absolutely insane for now. The DAA and Aer Rianta in Dublin have not covered themselves in glory in running an airport over the past 10 years, nay, 25 years probably. You can look at all the numbers you like but I have no faith in their ability to build an office block city when they can't even run an airport properly over time. The investment is not, as it happens in aviation, it's in commercial property. It is misplaced.0 -
I don't see your reasoning. It is not evident in your posts.I disagree with you and there were a bunch of reasons why I did.
But do you accept that an 135 mile high speed rail line to Shannon would be a ludicrous response to variable bus times between O'Connell Street and the airport? (Bearing in mind that this is what you suggested - which seems to be part of the 'bunch of reasons' you have for apparantly disagreeing with me.)I have taken well over 90 minutes to get from Dublin airport in a so called express bus on more than one occasion and the only thing that has made one of them even remotely reliable is the Port Tunnel, end of story.
I feel you are minimising the impact of the stopover. Indeed, if there was no stopover we would still need to have done work to get business. But the point is we weren't even putting ourselves in the market.With respect to Shannon and the stop over, you're dreaming if you think it's that simple.
Perhaps, but bear in mind this was done at the behest of the Shannon lobby. There's a sense of perspective missing from your posts.Ultimately the stop over was bad for Shannon because it screwed around with policy for Shannon Airport.
I actually don't agree, as they're hardly responsible for the lack of invesment in Dublin Airport or the dithering over a second terminal. Given the constraint of the existing terminal, they actually do a reasonable job of getting people through a tiny space in my experience. To have grown the airport to its position as 14th largest in the world by international passenger traffic is a considerable achievement, given that they had to operate out of the longest portacabin in aviation history. That suggests to me that someone in the DAA knows how to run a business.The DAA and Aer Rianta in Dublin have not covered themselves in glory in running an airport over the past 10 years, nay, 25 years probably.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not actually that confident about basing investment around air transport. But I'm certainly open to thinking about what the DAA are proposing.0 -
....I actually don't agree, as they're hardly responsible for the lack of invesment in Dublin Airport or the dithering over a second terminal. Given the constraint of the existing terminal, they actually do a reasonable job of getting people through a tiny space in my experience. To have grown the airport to its position as 14th largest in the world by international passenger traffic is a considerable achievement, given that they had to operate out of the longest portacabin in aviation history. That suggests to me that someone in the DAA knows how to run a business.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not actually that confident about basing investment around air transport. But I'm certainly open to thinking about what the DAA are proposing.
I'd disagree and I happen to have to deal with Dublin Airport on a very, very regular basis.
It's position as 14th largest by traffic can be down to a couple of things~:
since the Channel Tunnel/Eurostar went in, Dublin London is the busiest air corridor in the EU AFAIK.
Ryanair have packed capacity into it over the past couple of years. So has Aer Lingus.
We had a monumental inflow of immigration all of whom tend to fly home from time to time.
They didn't plan even remotely adequately for the expansion in numbers that you seem to think they went about getting in a competent way and frankly there are times during the day - particularly at rush hour say between 6.30 and 8am when it is a nightmare to contend with. Unfortunately, that happens to be the time I have to fly most frequently.0 -
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Similarly, I'm talking from a punters perspective but I see it differently. My recollection (really just coming from following media coverage over the past few years) was that the need to expand capacity was foreseen, but simply no action was taken. This indecision seemed to rest with the political domain, rather than airport management.They didn't plan even remotely adequately for the expansion in numbers that you seem to think they went about getting in a competent way and frankly there are times during the day - particularly at rush hour say between 6.30 and 8am when it is a nightmare to contend with. Unfortunately, that happens to be the time I have to fly most frequently.
While its hard to judge from the outside, an amount of that dithering seemed to have to do with whether there should be a second terminal built by private investors to compete with Aer Rianta, or whether any expansion should be a State owned investment, with issues about whether it should simply be a cheap and cheerful low fares facility. Meanwhile, passengers numbers grew with the consequences that have only recently started to be addressed.
I don't see political dithering as the DAA's fault. But I do feel any time I've passed through the terminal when its been packed they've done the best they can to manage the queues - if we accept the terminal as a given.
I suppose, to my mind, it comes down to whether you see the failure to invest as coming from a failure to foresee passenger growth by airport management (which I'm not sure the record supports) or a desire by Government to avoid offending either airport unions or private sector lobbyists - which they could achieve in the short term by postponing a decision.0 -
Just more on that thought (and apologies on being quite the internet stalker, but I feel clarity on this stuff is important). I've googled one story from five years ago here that's relevantI suppose, to my mind, it comes down to whether you see the failure to invest as coming from a failure to foresee passenger growth by airport management (which I'm not sure the record supports) or a desire by Government to avoid offending either airport unions or private sector lobbyists - which they could achieve in the short term by postponing a decision.
Now, I'm not seeking to canonise the DAA. Nor am I pretending one story is good enough as a comprehensive history of why we are where we are. But I take this story as reasonable evidence in support of my memory that airport management actually did anticipate growth in numbers and proposed action to deal with it, but that political interference stopped their action.Green light for new Dublin Airport terminal
Tuesday, 1 April 2003 20:05
An Bord Pleanála has granted permission to Aer Rianta to build a new passenger aircraft pier for 'low-cost' carriers at Dublin Airport, despite objections from Ryanair. However the impact of the decision is unclear, because the Government is considering establishing a second terminal at Dublin Airport which would be run independently of Aer Rianta.
The completion of the passenger terminal extension at Dublin Airport opened up the possibility of having a throughput of 20 million passengers a year. However, all sides recognise that this is not going to be enough - plans are already underway for developing a second runway, which would further increase capacity.....
The board said the project was given the go-ahead because of projected growth in air traffic and the need to provide adequate facilities, and the expansion was in line with the National Spatial Strategy.
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But RTÉ News understands the Minister for Transport has written to the Chairman of Aer Rianta to request it 'does not take any irrevocable steps' on the Pier D project.
This is because the Government is considering establishing an independent second terminal at Dublin Airport, outside the control of Aer Rianta.[/B]
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All sides agree that additional facilities are required at Dublin Airport, but it is not known whether Aer Rianta's plans for Pier D to provide 64,000 square feet of additional space will be allowed to take off.
I take it this is the same Pier D that was only finally delivered recently. I'd also feel this story suggests we should pause for a long thought before blaming the DAA if we find ourselves snaking along a queue.0 -
I'm not going to accuse you of being an internet stalker because believe me, compared to some of what I get, you're actually benign and it is clear to me that you really, really are interested in getting what's best for the average punter who just wants to fly somewhere. And it matters to me that people at least come out and talk about these things, and are at least prepared to see what other people see, even if they don't agree.
The point is, the DAA's record is mixed at the moment but it is fair to say that Aer Rianta as it existed before the airport authority was split was less than customer focussed. You have to remember, however, that the very senior people in that authority were government appointed and I would expect in an ideal world that they would have the respective ears of the people who appointed them. I realise this may sound naive but ultimately, without that expectation in place, nothing will get done in any of the state companies. Anyone at all who flew through Dublin Airport over the past eight years should be aware that there were problems with the airport as it existed but whatever will there was ever to do anything - and this is not unique to the airports - that anything was always limited to "the least we can get away with". It is a feature of all infrastructure planning in this country.
Pier D, incidentally is what the recently opened section was called while it was in construction AFAIK. T2 is currently under construction, despite being objected to by Ryanair at least and I think also some other developer. The problem I have - and I have stated this several times - is I think that realistically, when faced with an airport that is fundamentally inadequate to the numbers using it, and not extensibly designed, the best thing to do is build a new one and start from scratch. Munich, Helsinki and HongKong have all done this and those airports are generally a pleasure to fly through.
But again, we're doing the least we can get away. A new terminal. Pier D which involves quite a lot of walking even with the travelators. I suppose I just feel frustrated from time to time. But I do feel that there's some inconsistency if the DAA can find the funds to build a load of office blocks but can't find the funds to build an airport properly.
anyway I had the bad luck to deal with Heathrow and the vagaries of flying out of the UK this morning so that's colouring my view of anglo-Irish airports quite a bit. Maybe I'll shut up for a while and hope no one reports any posts.
I'd also add thanks for engaging.0 -
As others have said, you're doing your credibility no good by suggesting that shannon, 135 miles to the west of Dublin should have been utilised more than an airport right beside the city. It's not like Heathrow where there is a huge land issue with where the Airport is now, and there's a huge amount of pollution and unnecessary travelling at low speeds to get to the west.
Can you imagine how the world would laugh if we had made Shannon, more in the middle of nowhere, then the most nowhere airports that Ryanair use, the hub of Ireland's flights. It's sounds like something an insane dictator might do.0 -
Actually, it isn't really. A decent high speed link from Shannon to Dublin City centre would probably be as fast as some of the express bus services to the city were before they started routing a pile of them through the city centre and before the M1, for example. Even now it's still a comedy that it can take 90 minutes for an express bus to get to O'Connell Street from Dublin Airport. A train from Shannon would actually have been faster.
The point is the stopover was not the key issue. The key issue was the lack of cities you could fly into in the States from Ireland which was also a key provision in the bilateral.
I can't believe what I am reading.
First of all, the Metro will cut the time to the Airport to somewhere around the 20 minute mark. A very good solution, not just for Airport users, but for all of North Dublin.
Are you seriously suggesting that giving even more priority to Shannon Airport than it had, while building a high speed rail link from there to Dublin (30 years ago no less, when the economy was in paralysis and the national road and rail network was falling to pieces) makes more sense and could be travelled faster than a link to Dublin Airport?
Your high speed link would have cost billions of IR£s to build, require an annual subsidy exceeding the IR£16,000,000 (or less) that CIE recieved at the time for the entire public transportation network nationwide, and the fares would have been crazy. Even still you would be lucky to beat 60 minutes on this link while the 747/748 can sometimes be done in half an hour for a fraction of the cost.
By any sane reasoning, providing for Dublin's aviation needs requires an Airport near Dublin, not stunted and molested at every turn (like the years spent dithering over Pier 2/Terminal 2, and the deliberate design flaw to give it the shortest runway of any capital-city Airport in Europe) with the consequences Schuhart alluded to
and of course that old favourite, the Shannon Stopover, which was actually an improvement over the previous fact that you could not fly a plane from the United States to Dublin AT ALL. The US Civil Aviation Board threatened to block Aer Lingus from JFK Airport altogether unless US airlines were allowed to fly to Dublin. Hence, under a new bi-lateral agreement, they could fly into Dublin, if they stopped at Shannon, the same for no reason other than to appease the local trade union mafia.The real losers from the Stopover arrangement was a place called Ireland, that rarely gets a looking. One of the gainers was Manchester, delighted that we were happy to send them so much business.
No offense Calina, but it is painfully obvious that you do not have a clue.0 -
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Thank you Paul. That would be a part of it yes, together with some sort of impression that someone somewhere sees a bigger picture than just Shannon Airport vs Dublin Airport, but possibly an integrated, reliable high speed rail network which would make it possible to get from Limerick to Dublin faster by public transport than by car, and which does not involve aircraft, fed by a reliable bus service. Other countries have this sort of thing. I stopped wondering a long time ago why we could not.
There is no point in looking at each type of transport in isolation, or competition with each other. That people do this is precisely why we are at this point. You only have to look at some of the discussions on transport in Dublin where there's this impression that the Luas is supposed to compete with the buses, rather than the system being integrated as a whole to best serve the interests of the people who use it.
That being said, the original topic here relates primarily to the DAA's office complex scenario which I have strong reservations about the necessity and practicality already outlined.0 -
Sorry, just stalking again. Just to tie this down, do you mean that when you spoke of a link mitigating the stopover, you meant a rail link from Limerick to Dublin (rather than from Dublin to Shannon) would mean Shannon Airport would have become redundant?That would be a part of it yes, together with some sort of impression that someone somewhere sees a bigger picture than just Shannon Airport vs Dublin Airport, but possibly an integrated, reliable high speed rail network which would make it possible to get from Limerick to Dublin faster by public transport than by car, and which does not involve aircraft, fed by a reliable bus service.
I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong, just trying to understand your point.0 -
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Thank you Paul. That would be a part of it yes, together with some sort of impression that someone somewhere sees a bigger picture than just Shannon Airport vs Dublin Airport, but possibly an integrated, reliable high speed rail network which would make it possible to get from Limerick to Dublin faster by public transport than by car, and which does not involve aircraft, fed by a reliable bus service. Other countries have this sort of thing. I stopped wondering a long time ago why we could not.
You're dead right but unfortunately also very wrong. There's no way the people in Shannon would have settled for an airport in Dublin when they could one of their own. It might not be rampant but there's a very strong anti-Dublin or 'Dublin gets everything' ideology in certain parts of the country which gets in the way of logical planning. Before anyone suggests I'm culchie bashing, I only moved to Dublin a few years ago so I'm not exactly biased.0
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