An idiots, plain English, guide to LPG?

29-04-2014 4:41pm #1

Hi guys,

I have a 2004 Toyota Rav4. Love the car itself, but the petrol costs do make me cringe a bit (I reckon I get about 21-23mpg, which isn't terrible, I know, but I do a fair bit of driving).

I was googling LPG conversions and was wondering if anyone has any very straight-forward information on them. I've no real technical or enthusiast knowledge of cars in general.

My basic understanding is that an LPG conversion has neither a negative or positive affect on the car itself (ie; it won't 'break' the car - assuming it's done properly), can be done on any car/SUV/jeep/van, and although it can be a potentially costly initial expense, if you have an LPG outlet near you, you can literally halve your fuel costs.

Your car will also still run on petrol alone if you run out of LPG (presumably handy incase you run out mid-way through a journey and can't get LPG nearby).

What I'm wondering is, really, what are the downsides (aside from initial expense)?

I pretty much live next door to Flo Gas and they have a huge LPG sign that I pass every day (which is what has it in my head). Now I don't think Flo Gas themselves would sell it to me (it's an office building, though it does have tanks around it) but, with them based on my doorstep, I'm sure I wouldn't need to go too far to find a seller of it.

Anyone got any honest, straight-forward experiences of it, that the normal Joe Soap can understand?

(Edit: I'm aware my MPG isn't actually too bad, and probably the same as most people's, and this is me probably trying to just justify another little 'project' on the car, as I'm forever playing with it, but still interested all the same)

R.O.R · 29-04-2014 4:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi guys,

I have a 2004 Toyota Rav4. Love the car itself, but the petrol costs do make me cringe a bit (I reckon I get about 21-23mpg, which isn't terrible, I know, but I do a fair bit of driving).

I was googling LPG conversions and was wondering if anyone has any very straight-forward information on them. I've no real technical or enthusiast knowledge of cars in general.

My basic understanding is that an LPG conversion has neither a negative or positive affect on the car itself (ie; it won't 'break' the car - assuming it's done properly), can be done on any car/SUV/jeep/van, and although it can be a potentially costly initial expense, if you have an LPG outlet near you, you can literally halve your fuel costs.

Your car will also still run on petrol alone if you run out of LPG (presumably handy incase you run out mid-way through a journey and can't get LPG nearby).

What I'm wondering is, really, what are the downsides (aside from initial expense)?

I pretty much live next door to Flo Gas and they have a huge LPG sign that I pass every day (which is what has it in my head). Now I don't think Flo Gas themselves would sell it to me (it's an office building, though it does have tanks around it) but, with them based on my doorstep, I'm sure I wouldn't need to go too far to find a seller of it.

Anyone got any honest, straight-forward experiences of it, that the normal Joe Soap can understand?

(Edit: I'm aware my MPG isn't actually too bad, and probably the same as most people's, and this is me probably trying to just justify another little 'project' on the car, as I'm forever playing with it, but still interested all the same)

According to this - http://www.flogas.ie/autogas/ the pump is at the Flogas building on the Dublin Road - they've been out of there for at least a year now. Building is beginning to rot away and the car park is overflow for the Bull. They moved up near Tesco, but don't have any pumps there.

Next nearest LPG outlets listed are Dunleer, Finglas or Dundalk. Dunleer wouldn't be too bad, but not exactly around the corner.

29-04-2014 5:12pm

R.O.R wrote: »

According to this - http://www.flogas.ie/autogas/ the pump is at the Flogas building on the Dublin Road - they've been out of there for at least a year now. Building is beginning to rot away and the car park is overflow for the Bull. They moved up near Tesco, but don't have any pumps there.

Next nearest LPG outlets listed are Dunleer, Finglas or Dundalk. Dunleer wouldn't be too bad, but not exactly around the corner.

I'm living within 5 minutes of their new premises. I'm pretty certain There are tanks there alright (at least one, anyway?), and I often see their rigid truck parked up, but I don't see any actual pumps, no.

Dunleer wouldn't bother me as I'd still be saving money ultimately anyway. A lot of my driving is pleasure driving (not really going anywhere in particular or nipping over to family/friends houses etc. for the sake of it).

But doing photography sees me on the road a fair bit, too (moving from place to place). So I'd say it could still be worth my while anyway.

My average journey time is around 20-30 minutes, though. I know that (from reading around) the engine runs on Petrol until it warms up. I wonder how long this process takes or how warm the engine needs to be (ie; if i drive only for 20-30 minutes, am I going to complete my entire journey on petrol as the car will only begin to switch over to LPG at the end of my journey, etc.)

This is the kinda stuff throwing me off at the moment.

Also the practicalities (how do you fill it up, is the fuel cap tampered with, or do you fill the LPG tank (inside the car) directly, etc.

29-04-2014 5:16pm

I rang Flo Gas to ask can you get it at Knockbrack House (their premises). They said no, but it's still available on the Dublin road. Although the offices are closed on the Dublin Road, you can still buy LPG there. It's "round the back", apparently.

R.O.R · 29-04-2014 5:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I rang Flo Gas to ask can you get it at Knockbrack House (their premises). They said no, but it's still available on the Dublin road. Although the offices are closed on the Dublin Road, you can still buy LPG there. It's "round the back", apparently.

Place looks generally abandoned, and whenever I pass (always outside of office hours) the gates are locked up.

At least you wouldn't be counting on LPG and can run on Petrol if you can't get in to Flogas, but if it's not easily available very locally, will you bother heading to Dunleer to fill?

29-04-2014 5:30pm

R.O.R wrote: »

Place looks generally abandoned, and whenever I pass (always outside of office hours) the gates are locked up.

At least you wouldn't be counting on LPG and can run on Petrol if you can't get in to Flogas, but if it's not easily available very locally, will you bother heading to Dunleer to fill?

Yeah, when she was talking to me on the phone she said they close for lunch and she gave me the opening hours (which I didn't really pay any attention to).

Worst case scenario, if that place is on it's last legs, dunleer is only out the road.

I'm pretty sure I'd be able to justify driving out there if it meant shaving the guts of 40% off my petrol costs (according to the calculator on lpgain.com).

I just don't know enough about it, so fear I'd end up getting something that's not what I think it is supposed to be (ie; what add ons will they try to sell me, what maintenance is required, are there any general LPG 'running costs' that are hidden away until after you get it done, etc.

Most of the info I'm coming across is rambling on about the engine specs and such and sure you may aswell be writing in a different language.

29-04-2014 5:41pm

I rang LPGain, and they reckon for the Rav4 it'd be either €970 or €1,350. He was pushing the more expensive option on me as giving better MPG, and not needing as much servicing (every 40,000 miles), VS the other, cheaper, installation, which could give lesser MPG and requires maintenance every 12,000 miles (just under annually, pretty much).

I did get a smile out of his small talk though. "There are two options. In this country, you know, everyone wants the cheap one."

Just need to figure out, if I do look to go ahead with it, would the tank itself cause an inconvenience to me (it pretty much eliminates any boot space) and is there any actual real difference between the two installations..

curiousb · 29-04-2014 5:57pm

I'm looking into this also at the moment and it seems one of the important points to make sure they do is to add a lubrication system, as lpg has no lubrication and this can be harmful in the long term for the valve seats. Adding in lubrication (Flashlube) helps protect the valves.

Overall I have heard very good reports, but it i critical to get it done by a reputable fitter.

As far as I understand it, holes are drilled in the inlet manifold for the lpg injectors and some installers do this while the manifold is on the car, others will take it off first, which is preferable. It seems the installers who do it in one day do not remove the manifold.

Now, take all of this with a dose of salt as I am trying to figure it all out myself!

29-04-2014 6:23pm

According to LPGain, who seem to be somewhat reputable*, they can do it in 10 hours (now, im not sure if thats every car, as I was specifically asking about my Rav4, but i'd assume it's a general time for all cars). Essentially, you can drop your car to them, and collect it, in the same day.

*when i say reputable, I mean a chap who posted a thread on here that I found in the search function, mentioned them and was happy with their work. I know nothing else of them, so they could be complete cowboys, but they're the only chaps I've actually seen mentioned by name, so far.

CiniO · 29-04-2014 6:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

My basic understanding is that an LPG conversion has neither a negative or positive affect on the car itself (ie; it won't 'break' the car - assuming it's done properly),

If done properly it won't break your car, but it might shorten your engine life. What mileage is you car at in the moment, how much distance you travel a year on average, and how long do you plan to keep that car?

can be done on any car/SUV/jeep/van,

Of course it can, but some engines just tolerate LPG better than other. Best to google online, and see if your engine is good for converting or not.

and although it can be a potentially costly initial expense, if you have an LPG outlet near you, you can literally halve your fuel costs.

I don't think you can halve your fuel costs (not with difference between LPG and petrol price in Ireland), but you can save a good amount.
Best though to do the calculations yourself before converting the car, taking into consideration your annual mileage, and price at which you will be able to get LPG.

Your car will also still run on petrol alone if you run out of LPG (presumably handy incase you run out mid-way through a journey and can't get LPG nearby).

Of course.

What I'm wondering is, really, what are the downsides (aside from initial expense)?

You need to fit LPG tank somewhere.
There are toroidal shape tanks offered that you can fit into your spare wheel space, but then you have problem where to put your spare wheel. Also those tanks are usually not too big (30-40 litres) so it only makes sense if you have LPG stations with cheap LPG within range such tank offers. With your fuel consumption that would't take you any further than 300km.
You can fit bigger tanks, but those will take half of you boot.

Also as mentioned above - running on LPG might shorten your engine life.

Fuel consumption (mpg) will go down. You might get about 10-20% worse mpg on LPG, so you have to account for that when doing your calculations.

You won't be able to use many underground parkings, or Euro-tunnel. However I don't think underground parking in Ireland are marked to prohibit LPG powered vehicles, as LPG is so little popular here.

You might need to spend more on servicing, as filters, oil, etc might need more frequent changes, as well as conversion itself might need servicing (changing filter, etc) and adjustments.

Savings on fuel might be even less in short-trips city driving, as your car might need to warm up on petrol, so you will step before your engine switched to LPG.

I read somewhere that LPG conversion might affect your cost of insurance, but I have no experience with it.

Anyone got any honest, straight-forward experiences of it, that the normal Joe Soap can understand?

I had two cars powered by LPG, but that was not in Ireland, but in Poland, where you have LPG station every 5km, and 10% of vehicles are powered by LPG.

In general, with relatively high LPG price here in Ireland, and relatively high car maintenance, servicing, repair prices, LPG might not be worth it, but it's all up to individual calculation.

If you find out where is your nearest LPG station, how much they sell LPG for, how much your conversion would cost, what engine have you got in your rav4, and what type of driving (town, motorway, etc) you mostly do, and what average annual mileage, I might help you with calculations.

stimpson · 29-04-2014 7:20pm

I have an LPG conversion done by LPGain. It's the cheapo one. When you do the sums, you've be a long time saving the difference if it's 3 or 4 mpg.

It won't kill your engine. There is actually less engine wear as there is much less carbon produced. What can happen though is valve sest recession. This is where the hotter burning LPG eats away at soft valves. Usually they can be adjusted periodically, but I've read about an S60 with 150,000 miles on LPG and no issue. Worst case scenario is a second hand head every 100,000 miles I suppose.

Regarding warming up, mine warms up in less than half a mile. I've put €20 of petrol into the car on 3 occasions over the last 6 months - one was just last week.

The big problem for you is where to put the tank. I have a toroidal one in the spare wheel well and a can of gunk for emergencies. Is there space under the boot in the RAV4? You can take a spin up to LPGain and try different tanks. My tank is a 67 litre which actually holds 58l when you leave space for expansion. I get ~230 miles before the last light comes on the dash. That's about 45 litres.

If you live near a station and can live with the loss of boot space then it's a no brainer. Do your sums taking into account the cost of gas (varies between 78c and a euro depending on where you buy). You lose about 20% of your MPG, but if you can get your gas at half price compared to petrol, then that's a 40% saving. Add in €25 service every 8000 miles and see where you are. My break even is about 12,000 miles based on 30mpg on petrol.

I'd be happy to meet up and show you the setup if you like.

29-04-2014 7:40pm

CiniO wrote: »

If done properly it won't break your car, but it might shorten your engine life. What mileage is you car at in the moment, how much distance you travel a year on average, and how long do you plan to keep that car?

Well I have no real plans to get rid of the car anytime soon. At the moment, it's practical with the amount of space in the back when I take the seats out (I Know i'd lose some of this to an LPG tank), i like the seating height, i think it looks good, etc.

My car is a Toyota Rav4, 2004, 1.8ltr petrol (VVTI, whatever that may mean). I've no idea what actual engine is in it, but it seems to be used on a few Toyota cars and is not exclusive to the Rav.

I've got 100,000 miles on the clock at the moment. Since buying the car (about 10 months ago?) I've done 12,000 miles. So about 15000 per year, I'd guess.

I'm not sure how much LPG costs in the station near to me, but I will take a look and find out soon enough.

You need to fit LPG tank somewhere.
There are toroidal shape tanks offered that you can fit into your spare wheel space, but then you have problem where to put your spare wheel.

The Rav's wheel is hanging on the back door, so spare wheel space isn't an option, unfortunately.

There are LPG-Converted pictures of the the same model as my car, but I'm not sure how big that LPG tank is.

I assume I'd end up with something similar.

Also as mentioned above - running on LPG might shorten your engine life.

Can you give more details on that?

If you find out where is your nearest LPG station, how much they sell LPG for, how much your conversion would cost, what engine have you got in your rav4, and what type of driving (town, motorway, etc) you mostly do, and what average annual mileage, I might help you with calculations.

I do mostly town driving, by the way. Conversion looks like it'll cost either €970 or €1,350, but I'm not sure about this lube thing that's being mentioned, and whether it's included in either price or not (though it sounds like a requirement).

stimpson wrote: »

I'd be happy to meet up and show you the setup if you like.

So you'd obviously be in favour of it, then? Have you noticed any real drawbacks (aside from things like the availability not being as good as petrol, etc.).

I'd actually be very interested in that, if you're anywhere near me at all.

Interslice · 29-04-2014 7:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I assume I'd end up with something similar.

.

Does your Rav 4 have one of them massive mufflers that goes across the back of the car?

stimpson · 29-04-2014 8:27pm

Deleted User wrote: »

So you'd obviously be in favour of it, then? Have you noticed any real drawbacks (aside from things like the availability not being as good as petrol, etc.).

I'd actually be very interested in that, if you're anywhere near me at all.

The only downside is that my wallet is heavier. I pass an LPG station every day so it's a no brainer. If you have to go out of your way then it's not such a good idea. I'll PM you my details and you can meet if it suits.

Edit: is this your model? Looks like a good solution.

http://www.lpghaber.com/montaj-galerisi/mucib-otogaz-toyota-rav-4-20-brc-lpg-sirali-montaji-26215.html

29-04-2014 8:39pm

stimpson wrote: »

The only downside is that my wallet is heavier. I pass an LPG station every day so it's a no brainer. If you have to go out of your way then it's not such a good idea. I'll PM you my details and you can meet if it suits.

Edit: is this your model? Looks like a good solution.

http://www.lpghaber.com/montaj-galerisi/mucib-otogaz-toyota-rav-4-20-brc-lpg-sirali-montaji-26215.html

That's not loading for me, but is it the one where they put the thinner wide tank underneath the carpet? If so, it's the newer version of the Rav than my one, unfortunately.

Would be very handy though, I do admit (though I still maintain my version of the Rav is the better looking one :P

29-04-2014 8:40pm

Interslice wrote: »

Does your Rav 4 have one of them massive mufflers that goes across the back of the car?

Erm.. I don't think so, actually, now that you say it. I'm completely stumped. Must look. I thought they'd all be the same.

toyotaavensis · 29-04-2014 11:39pm

Hi OP,
I was thinking about this on my avensis. Unfortunately, according to Prins the vvti engine can suffer problems as the valves/seals can be burnt as LPG doesnt have any lubrication in it.

I was gutted as it would have saved me a small fortune but it wasnt worth the risk of having a big problem.

I posted the link to this on another LPG thread.
If you cant find it post back here and I ll root it out.

toyotaavensis · 29-04-2014 11:50pm

http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachment.html?attachmentId=438065

Interslice · 30-04-2014 1:09am

toyotaavensis wrote: »

Hi OP,
I was thinking about this on my avensis. Unfortunately, according to Prins the vvti engine can suffer problems as the valves/seals can be burnt as LPG doesnt have any lubrication in it.

I was gutted as it would have saved me a small fortune but it wasnt worth the risk of having a big problem.

I posted the link to this on another LPG thread.
If you cant find it post back here and I ll root it out.

Did you look into adding lubricant? http://www.prinsautogas.com/en/products/valvecare/valvecare.html

They have a Rav 4 listed as one of there conversions.
http://autogasireland.ie/Toyota%201%20lpg%20autogas.html

toyotaavensis · 30-04-2014 9:18am

Have a look at the link I posted

Toyota All models 1996> All models Excessive wear of valves/seats
Toyota Corolla 2004> VVTI Problems even with flash lube
Toyota Aygo 2005> 1000 cc 12V Excessive wear of valves/seats

I know that toyotas are converted but when I was looking into it I found that in Germany people who convert the vvtiengine remove the head from the engine every 60000km.

I also found reports from lads who were told by LPG fitters that they wont convert their car.

Based on this information I abandoned the idea. OP I am not saying do or dont as you could be lucky but be careful.

keithclancy · 30-04-2014 9:29am

Interslice wrote: »

Does your Rav 4 have one of them massive mufflers that goes across the back of the car?

Your thinking of this tank ?

http://www.basakotogaz.com/toyota.htm

pete4130 · 30-04-2014 11:04am

Thats pretty poor fuel economy if its 21-23mpg. I would have thought the 2.0L petrol would be getting low 30's at least if its the 2WD version?

Is that US mpg or UK mpg? If it was US mpg then it would be a more reasonable figure.

An idiots, plain English, guide to LPG?

Comments