Men, Know Your Place!

Woodward · 21-08-2014 5:15pm #1

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=700364563345954

What do you think about this speech that was given at the protests over the recent scandal?

laoch na mona · 21-08-2014 5:58pm

a touch on the radical side but the basics of it are okay.
feminism is a womens movement obviously but i disagree men can and do play a positive role in the struggle against patriarchy.

also nothing she said was of relevance to the states failure to protect the rights of a vulnerable woman

she sounds like a very radical feminist so i'd tend to dismiss it as the radical fringe. the comments seem to echo my point you shouldn't insult your supporters

NSAman · 21-08-2014 6:01pm

She obviously couldn't burn her bra! Fire hazzard

paddy1990 · 21-08-2014 7:12pm

ridiculous comments by the lady in the video. she embarrassed herself and her supporters

Pawwed Rig · 22-08-2014 1:04am

Woodward wrote: »

What do you think about this speech that was given at the protests over the recent scandal?

What do you think?

syklops · 22-08-2014 1:24am

Am I bovvered? Do I look bovvered? Im not bovvered though.

There was a time when people with radical opinions could only stand on literally a soap box on a street corner and shout their opinions to the street.

Now all they need is a twitter account. Or in this case for some person to record their rants on their phone and upload it to youtube.

Greenmachine · 24-08-2014 10:58pm

She definitely came across as a radical. She came across to me at least as something of a man hater.
I support a woman right to choose, but walk away from her sooner than mention it.

Bafucin · 24-08-2014 11:27pm

I think it's a confusing jumble of unformed thoughts.

I think partly she is reminding people with regards abortion women go through physically this men even partners observe.

She obviously has issues. I know a couple of friends who went that evening, it is a mixed bunch of people who go.

It must be strange if you have had an abortion to hear it being talked about as a subject.

She lost it though. And it was very disrespectful to belittle those of us men who support the pro choice campaign. Huge PR mistake too.

But the situation in this country does not affect me in the way it does her.

The way you say something is half the message. She could have said men regardless of opinion will never be affected as personally and as physically and women. But she let her emotions cloud her judgement and the presentation overshadowed what she was saying. She came across as radical because she was shouting etc.

I think as a man I should have more say in issues like prostate cancer screenings etc. IT AFFECTS ME in a way women will never experience. Whilst it is great to see women supporting they will never be as close to it. And most women who support such causes get that.

I am a pro-choice man I get that my opinion is secondary to a woman's choice. Isn't that what being pro-choice is in the first place??

I know three women who went to the march, they would be nothing like her. I didn't go myself but I know these events are always a mix of people.

Seriously? · 25-08-2014 10:11am

Until men also can 'abort' their legal association with future offspring I'll be firmly on the other side of the fence.

Abortion is very much a male issue since it’s seeks to provide females with the right solely decide if pregnancy goes to term and locks a man into indentured servitude for the next number of decades.

Maguined · 25-08-2014 10:29am

Judging someone not on their actions or merit but purely on their gender is sexist. Anyone who would rather an "ally" limit their contribution to the cause because of their gender is cutting their nose off to spite their face.

Calhoun · 25-08-2014 10:36am

I think she was a PR nightmare for the pro-choice side,not only because of what she said but because the lack of condemnation afterwards.

I would have been by default pro-choice but will have to give it a serious thought now. As has been pointed out if a woman decides to legally keep a baby the man is responsible so it should work the other way.

wotaccent · 25-08-2014 10:57am

Bafucin wrote: »

But the situation in this country does not affect me in the way it does her.

The way you say something is half the message. She could have said men regardless of opinion will never be affected as personally and as physically and women.

I think it does affect you. If you're in what you think is a loving relationship and you would love to have that child, once you get over the shock, would you not be devastated if your girlfriend/wife decides she wants an abortion, even if you disagree? Is it not your child too?

I do not think it is a woman-only issue. She did not get pregnant by herself. She chose to have sex with the guy. The only circumstance I can think of when she would have that right is when pregnancy occurs through rape, or the man makes it clear he's not interested one way or the other.

I am pro-choice in that I don't really care if women have abortions or not. I'm more interested in what I do than what they do. As you say, this woman probably has issues and didn't do the movement any favours. To say that men do not matter in this issue, or be affected by it, is wrong.

raindog.promo · 26-08-2014 12:07pm

This woman's opinion and statement does not change mine in any way.
I think what she said was more unhelpful than helpful and wonder what the Anti Racist Network's goal was by inviting her to speak.
It seems to have caused some damage to the pro-life movement.

I don't now who the speaker, Amanda, is. There's nothing that I could find about her on the Anti-Racist Network's Facebook or Twitter account besides photographs.
I don't know her credentials or what previous work she has done on the subject of women's issues.

I take exception to having my country described as a racist ****hole.

I don't believe that Savita Halappanavar's death was due to racism and I think Amber should be informed that the constitution of this country safeguards a person's right to a good name, so she should either withdraw that comment or provide any evidence of racism to the proper authorities. I read the executive summary of the HSE report and nowhere is racism mentioned. I'm sure the Halappanavar's would be happy to hear that she is "very ****ing sorry" about what happened. In fact, that's exactly how I offer my condolences when one of my friends goes through bereavement and it cheers them up no end.

The pro-choice movement is seeking to repeal the 8th amendment to the constitution which would require a majority result in a referendum, so it is an issue for all Irish people of voting age.
I will vote pro-choice if given the option, regardless of what Amanda thinks. However I will not be participating in any marches or demonstrations involving the Anti Racist Network because their actions thus far have been questionable.

Maybe she has a point that men are dominating the issue. Is it happening in such numbers that the anger directed towards men in this speech is warranted? I'm not sure but if someone were to explain concisely where and how this is happening and what should be done instead, I would be happy to listen. However ranting and raving and shouting "know your place" and that I should never speak to any woman about research and programs into the issue simply because I have a cock isn't good enough. Should women who are unable to conceive know their place as well and keep quiet? They'll never have to go through pregnancy or face the choice as to whether they should have an abortion or not either.

Daisies · 26-08-2014 3:31pm

Woodward wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=700364563345954

What do you think about this speech that was given at the protests over the recent scandal?

I thought that she really did not talk about the issue at hand. She started making it aracism thing and then the whole men know your place thing just made me extremely uncomfortable. And a lot of people around me looked very uncomfortable. It's a shame because the other speakers were very eloquent.

EyeSight · 26-08-2014 7:23pm

Calhoun wrote: »

I think she was a PR nightmare for the pro-choice side,not only because of what she said but because the lack of condemnation afterwards.

I would have been by default pro-choice but will have to give it a serious thought now. As has been pointed out if a woman decides to legally keep a baby the man is responsible so it should work the other way.

This was the thing i took away most. If i went to a rally and a speaker was saying anti-Semitic or racist remarks then i would either boo or tell them to shut up. I would never tell a woman(or anyone) to "know your place". In this i hear no condemnation but a little cheering

I am pro choice and will continue to be so. But this would stop me marching or campaigning with their movement

valor rorghulis · 28-08-2014 12:49am

She's just one of these victimhood feminists who don't want men involved in anything like this because it damages their narrative that every single man is in collective support of the patriarchy and keeping women down.

Whilst she's obviously an extreme version, her speech echoes a lot of feminist rhetoric you see in the media & forums like this

Mainstream feminists are going to have to abandon the reliance on dodgy statistics about unfair pay or they will suffer more embarrassments like this utter fool.

constance tench · 28-08-2014 7:01pm

raindog.promo wrote: »

...I don't now who the speaker, Amanda, is. There's nothing that I could find about her on the Anti-Racist Network's Facebook or Twitter account besides photographs.
I don't know her credentials or what previous work she has done on the subject of women's issues.

Amanda is a queer Nigerian woman living in Ireland since 2002, she currently studies Community Development in the Institute of Technology Blanchardstown.

http://www.irishfeministnetwork.org/the-coordinators.html

Standman · 28-08-2014 8:46pm

From the Irish Feminist Networks website under the Values section:

Inclusiveness: We wish to protect and promote the interests of all of our members, and we respect the diversity of all who join us in opposing gender inequality.

They respect the diversity of those who join, but if you are a man KNOW YOUR PLACE!

paddy1990 · 28-08-2014 9:13pm

valor rorghulis wrote: »

She's just one of these victimhood feminists who don't want men involved in anything like this because it damages their narrative that every single man is in collective support of the patriarchy and keeping women down.

Whilst she's obviously an extreme version, her speech echoes a lot of feminist rhetoric you see in the media & forums like this

Mainstream feminists are going to have to abandon the reliance on dodgy statistics about unfair pay or they will suffer more embarrassments like this utter fool.

She really made an absolute show of herself and her movement. I'd be ashamed to be seen anywhere near a talk with her at the helm.

Shakespeare's Sister · 28-08-2014 11:05pm

What a load of aggressive venom. "Men, support us... but don't support us."

It is not just a woman's issue. It may be moreso a woman's issue in some ways, but it's still not only a woman's issue.

I question the sincerity and awareness of men who are all wholeheartedly in agreement with it too. Don't they realise she's attacking all men?

Some of the comments to it on that Facebook are obnoxious too - the guy whose page it is, calling people cretins just because they don't agree with him. Seems like he's just trying to get laid. And what the **** does cishet mean?

constance tench · 29-08-2014 1:32am

Apparently, shes ''really f*****g sorry'' for the family and friends of Savita Halappanavar...

...she's ''really f*****g sorry'' that they had to ''face the s**t that you did in this f*****g country'' (charming)

Full 'speech' here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=764CcBSboi0

Playboy · 29-08-2014 2:03am

constance tench wrote: »

Apparently, shes ''really f*****g sorry'' for the family and friends of Savita Halappanavar...

...she's ''really f*****g sorry'' that they had to ''face the s**t that you did in this f*****g country'' (charming)

Full 'speech' here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=764CcBSboi0

Jaysus, wtf was that! An awful insane and vulgar rant. Who on earth thought it would be a good idea to give her a microphone?

paddy1990 · 29-08-2014 3:12am

Unbelievable that this idiot gets a platform to spew garbage in front of kids.

salamanca22 · 29-08-2014 3:38am

She comes off as a sexist in that video. How dare she demand men to know their place with regards feminism? Men do a great amount of good for the movement too. She should not be allowed to have the platform again.

krudler · 29-08-2014 5:44am

I love that she berates Ireland even though if she still lived in Nigeria she could face a 15 year jail term for being a lesbian. Not that Ireland doesnt have it's own problems, but calling a place that you're freely allowed to practice your own sexuality coming from a country where jail or worse faces you isn't the way to win people over to your cause. some of the people in the crowd look absolutely mortified at some of the idiotic waffle coming out of her mouth.
What is it with radical feminists thinking that shouting abuse is how to get your point across? Yes Ireland needs to reform it's laws when it comes to abortion, calling the country a sh1thole and telling all men to stay out of the debate is just moronic.

Seriously? · 29-08-2014 6:22am

salamanca22 wrote: »

She comes off as a sexist in that video. How dare she demand men to know their place with regards feminism? Men do a great amount of good for the movement too. She should not be allowed to have the platform again.

She's the honest face of feminism, so for that I guess she has as much of a right (if not more) to speak for them.
And who knows perhaps it will wake up some the very men whose support she enjoys attacking.

Shakespeare's Sister · 29-08-2014 10:22pm

krudler wrote: »

I love that she berates Ireland even though if she still lived in Nigeria she could face a 15 year jail term for being a lesbian. Not that Ireland doesnt have it's own problems, but calling a place that you're freely allowed to practice your own sexuality coming from a country where jail or worse faces you isn't the way to win people over to your cause.

Yep. Nice of her to insult an entire nation. But shur a few self loathing types think she's great.

Seriously? wrote: »

She's the honest face of feminism

Meh, unnecessary IMO. Plenty of feminists think she's full of **** - there is no one face of feminism. She's the true face of *radical* feminism all right, but not feminism across the board, which is quite diverse.
What you're saying is like me saying some hardline MRA guy is the honest face of MRA.

krudler · 30-08-2014 12:24am

I'd consider myself a feminist in the sense I agree with equal pay for men and women, women having the right to choose what to do with their own bodies. I also agree men need more protection when it comes to issues like children in divorces and parental leave during a partner's pregnancy etc. Radical feminists rarely want equality though, it's just turned into this gender war pissing contest.

Pawwed Rig · 30-08-2014 7:33am

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

She's the true face of *radical* feminism all right, but not feminism across the board, which is quite diverse.
What you're saying is like me saying some hardline MRA guy is the honest face of MRA.

Maybe so but they are the ones getting the platforms and there were more than a few cheers for what she said. It is the likes of her, Una Mulally and Ivana Bacik that make the term feminist toxic for alot of people.

krudler wrote: »

I'd consider myself a feminist in the sense I agree with equal pay for men and women, women having the right to choose what to do with their own bodies.

I agree with all of that too but would not use the term feminist to describe myself

Merrill123 · 30-08-2014 7:38am

She has no idea what she is talking.

Paperduel · 30-08-2014 8:43am

krudler wrote: »

I'd consider myself a feminist in the sense I agree with equal pay for men and women, women having the right to choose what to do with their own bodies. I also agree men need more protection when it comes to issues like children in divorces and parental leave during a partner's pregnancy etc. Radical feminists rarely want equality though, it's just turned into this gender war pissing contest.

What do you mean by equal pay for men and women?

The current "pay gap" is a myth.

Wibbs · 30-08-2014 10:42am

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Maybe so but they are the ones getting the platforms and there were more than a few cheers for what she said. It is the likes of her, Una Mulally and Ivana Bacik that make the term feminist toxic for alot of people. I agree with all of that too but would not use the term feminist to describe myself

Same as myself PR. 20 years ago if you'd asked me was I a feminist I would have happily said yes, but not today.

IMHO the mainstream movement has been tainted and tainted quite badly by too much of the extreme radical end of feminism repeating the same BS and moral panic for so long that it seems believable. To the degree that the average person on the street believes in the pay gap, patriarchy and such like.

American culture can have this in a big way, but Irish culture isn't far behind it IMHO. In our case I think the sense of collective shame over past actual injustices makes us uncomfortable asking uncomfortable questions of the "new order".

Seriously? · 30-08-2014 11:25am

Wibbs wrote: »

Same as myself PR. 20 years ago if you'd asked me was I a feminist I would have happily said yes, but not today.

I'd imagine that quite a lot of people would be moving to the same position.
Increasely the image a person conjures up when the word feminist is used is of a anti-male radical female feminist. I think the mask is slipping.

It's for that reason that increasing numbers of women (and men) are distancing themselves from the term and opting of alternative descriptions.

On a contected topic there is an interesting article on the feminism and womens studies on AVfM, with a paticular emphasis on Irish education.
Well worth a read in my opinion.

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/womens-and-gender-studies-courses-in-ireland-and-abroad/

Wibbs · 30-08-2014 11:35am

Good god some of the science quotes are scary.

Shakespeare's Sister · 30-08-2014 1:10pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Maybe so but they are the ones getting the platforms and there were more than a few cheers for what she said. It is the likes of her, Una Mulally and Ivana Bacik that make the term feminist toxic for alot of people.

I agree with all of that too but would not use the term feminist to describe myself

Aye. A person doesn't have to be a feminist to support women not losing out/mistreated because of her gender (most people subscribe to that anyway - and it's true that the pay gap is a myth) but it's still incorrect to say feminism = radical feminism.
It doesn't matter that the term feminist conjures up a man-hating militant for some people; those people are wrong.

ancapailldorcha · 30-08-2014 1:10pm

I was able to stomach about half of that video. Maybe there's a key point towards the end but I've no idea why she's have a go at people who support her cause.
Principia Mathematica as “a rape manual.” The mind boggles.

La_Gordy · 30-08-2014 1:17pm

Is it because she says 'Know your place' that people are disagreeing with her? Her message is men should stand up to other men that are disrespectful and sexist. Is it the delivery people dislike? She is right.

Calhoun · 30-08-2014 1:22pm

La_Gordy wrote: »

Is it because she says 'Know your place' that people are disagreeing with her? Her message is men should stand up to other men that are disrespectful and sexist. Is it the delivery people dislike? She is right.

I thought her message was that Ireland is a piece of **** country and men have no right to talk about the abortion debate and should keep out.

Don't try and sugar coat her militant message as men being stupid enough and taking it up wrong.

raindog.promo · 30-08-2014 1:22pm

La_Gordy wrote: »

Is it because she says 'Know your place' that people are disagreeing with her? Her message is men should stand up to other men that are disrespectful and sexist. Is it the delivery people dislike? She is right.

No, it's not. The reasons for disagreement from various people have already been listed in the thread.

Wibbs · 30-08-2014 1:38pm

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

but it's still incorrect to say feminism = radical feminism.

That's a common enough argument SS and one I would have some agreement with, however quite a bit of mainstream feminism has adopted and promoted what was once seen as radical. The "patriarchy" is oft used in mainstream feminism, as is "rape culture", as is the "pay gap"(all of which can be very easily debated against). For a good while it was suggested in mainstream feminism that there was an education gap too, but that has become so obviously incorrect it has been quietly dropped.

raindog.promo · 30-08-2014 1:59pm

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/video-men-should-know-their-place-in-abortion-debate-rally-told-30526016.html

Link to the Independent newspaper report above.
All the accusations of racism have been edited out. Most of the profanity too. The quotes have also been switched around to put a different slant on it.

I find it more condescending for other people to come in and state
"I think what Amanda meant to say is......."

ancapailldorcha · 30-08-2014 3:19pm

Wibbs wrote: »

That's a common enough argument SS and one I would have some agreement with, however quite a bit of mainstream feminism has adopted and promoted what was once seen as radical. The "patriarchy" is oft used in mainstream feminism, as is "rape culture", as is the "pay gap"(all of which can be very easily debated against). For a good while it was suggested in mainstream feminism that there was an education gap too, but that has become so obviously incorrect it has been quietly dropped.

An American on my Facebook posted an International Women's Day poster with all this and more on it. I commented using similar wording as this post only to be told matter-of-factly that "it's all true". The lady in question is quite intelligent which is probably why I wasn't branded as a misogynistic agent of the patriarchy.

Wibbs · 30-08-2014 3:47pm

raindog.promo wrote: »

I find it more condescending for other people to come in and state
"I think what Amanda meant to say is......."

I'd say it's much more along the lines of damage control RD. What many like her would happily believe behind closed doors doesn't go down too well in the public space. Too much of a risk of people, men as well as women, thinking and questioning and saying "ehhh WTF? We didn't sign up for this guff". That's before the irony of her decrying a state that doesn't hold imprisonment over her head for being gay as was pointed out earlier. Never mind that she's essentially saying that men are only there to support as far as reproductive rights go but butt out otherwise. Fathers or potential fathers are mere bystanders in many ways. Well if some of the placards are happy to say that women aren't incubators or walking wombs, well then men should be able to say they're not sperm donors or wallets.

ancapailldorcha wrote:

An American on my Facebook posted an International Women's Day poster with all this and more on it. I commented using similar wording as this post only to be told matter-of-factly that "it's all true". The lady in question is quite intelligent which is probably why I wasn't branded as a misogynistic agent of the patriarchy.

Well the US and its universities is pretty much ground zero for this kind of hardline/imaginary/daft[delete per personal choice] feminist thinking. It's near swamped in it. Canada similarly and the UK is getting it in pockets too. Bursting forth from leftist 60/70's thinking in women's/development studies courses and faculties. Check out the earlier posted link from the Irish Feminist Network. Lots of the above who speak from that qualification and worldview.

The same worldview and political stance that has spread moral panic across US college campuses with the "one in four" idea among other nonsense. It's well worth reading some of the pronouncements of the course directors and lecturers in such environments. It's very easy to see why your otherwise intelligent American friend is buying into this stuff. A generation of college women(and men) are with her in buying into it. It's all around them and touted by respected adults as academic fact, when it's usually anything but.

This is why I less and less buy the get out clause of "that's only radical feminism". The obviously crazy stuff is, but when you look at much of the other tenets that are now givens and more, sacred cows within mainstream feminism that get out clause looks a lot hollower up close.

Shakespeare's Sister · 30-08-2014 3:57pm

La_Gordy wrote: »

Is it because she says 'Know your place' that people are disagreeing with her? Her message is men should stand up to other men that are disrespectful and sexist. Is it the delivery people dislike? She is right.

She wasn't saying that at all. The opposite! She was saying to men NOT to debate with any men condemning women in this context - "BECAUSE IT'S NOT YOUR BATTLE!!!!" or some crazy sh-t.

Wibbs wrote: »

That's a common enough argument SS and one I would have some agreement with, however quite a bit of mainstream feminism has adopted and promoted what was once seen as radical. The "patriarchy" is oft used in mainstream feminism, as is "rape culture", as is the "pay gap"(all of which can be very easily debated against). For a good while it was suggested in mainstream feminism that there was an education gap too, but that has become so obviously incorrect it has been quietly dropped.

Aye, would agree. But some feminist views are still important, e.g. when local high-school footballers video sexual assault of a young woman who's too drunk to consent (not drunk and still up for sex, but actually passed out). Now I know anyone would condemn this, not just feminists, but it's still a feminist issue. Anyone decent and sane would agree men having no fathers' rights if unmarried, is a disgrace... but it's still a MRA issue.

ancapailldorcha · 30-08-2014 4:10pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Well the US and its universities is pretty much ground zero for this kind of hardline/imaginary/daft[delete per personal choice] feminist thinking. It's near swamped in it. Canada similarly and the UK is getting it in pockets too. Bursting forth from leftist 60/70's thinking in women's/development studies courses and faculties. Check out the earlier posted link from the Irish Feminist Network. Lots of the above who speak from that qualification and worldview.

The same worldview and political stance that has spread moral panic across US college campuses with the "one in four" idea among other nonsense. It's well worth reading some of the pronouncements of the course directors and lecturers in such environments. It's very easy to see why your otherwise intelligent American friend is buying into this stuff. A generation of college women(and men) are with her in buying into it. It's all around them and touted by respected adults as academic fact, when it's usually anything but.

This is why I less and less buy the get out clause of "that's only radical feminism". The obviously crazy stuff is, but when you look at much of the other tenets that are now givens and more, sacred cows within mainstream feminism that get out clause looks a lot hollower up close.

I had another American try to convince me that I was a feminist when I said I believed in equal rights, opportunities and responsibilities. I was unaware of the "one in four" mantra at the time. I'm not even sure what the end game of these radicals is. Do they want all female boardrooms, courts, schools, etc...?
The sad thing is, when you have rags like the Guardian crying misogyny every day, it dilutes the importance of the word. I'm not nearly so ignorant as to claim misogyny is no longer an issue but when one attempts to label male partners who don't participate in housework as misogynists then the word becomes a lot less serious to me.

Mike747 · 30-08-2014 4:27pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Same as myself PR. 20 years ago if you'd asked me was I a feminist I would have happily said yes, but not today.

IMHO the mainstream movement has been tainted and tainted quite badly by too much of the extreme radical end of feminism repeating the same BS and moral panic for so long that it seems believable. To the degree that the average person on the street believes in the pay gap, patriarchy and such like.

American culture can have this in a big way, but Irish culture isn't far behind it IMHO. In our case I think the sense of collective shame over past actual injustices makes us uncomfortable asking uncomfortable questions of the "new order".

That's interesting. I'm a relatively young man and my experience with feminism has been entirely negative. All I see is an anti-male ideology. All this nonsense about the patriarchy, rape culture and the pay gap is my fault simply because I'm a man.

And then women will wonder why men are against feminism.

diveout · 30-08-2014 5:08pm

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Aye, would agree. But some feminist views are still important, e.g. when local high-school footballers videoing sexual assault of a young woman who's too drunk to consent (not drunk and still up for sex, but actually passed out). Now I know anyone would condemn this, not just feminists, but it's still a feminist issue. Anyone decent and sane would agree men having no fathers' rights if unmarked, is a disgrace... but it's still a MRA issue.

Oh GOD. Problem is feminists would teach your daughters not to take any kind of precautions, get so **** faced drunk you can't walk straight, don't bother with cab fare, blah blah blah..... because they can't tell the difference between victim blaming and not being an idiot.

Empowering? I don't think so.

Shakespeare's Sister · 30-08-2014 6:18pm

diveout wrote: »

Oh GOD. Problem is feminists would teach your daughters not to take any kind of precautions, get so **** faced drunk you can't walk straight, don't bother with cab fare, blah blah blah..... because they can't tell the difference between victim blaming and not being an idiot.

Empowering? I don't think so.

Well yeh but besides those there are sensible people who know there's a difference between taking precautionary measures, and victim-blaming, but nevertheless victim-blaming still occurs. If you're drunk and consent to sex (which is totally possible) and then regret it next morning, tough sh-t. Big difference between that though and being so destroyed drunk that you're crumpled up in a heap and a bunch of people are sexually assaulting you in various ways and putting it on social media. It is irresponsible to get that drunk, but a person makes the choice to sexually assault someone who is that inebriated, and publicise it - the responsibility to do so rests on them. Maybe there is the teeniest teeniest hint of responsibility on the part of the person who got themselves so drunk and put themselves in such a vulnerable position, but any responsibility is far, far exceeded by the person who goes to the trouble of sexually assaulting them/broadcasting it.

Wibbs · 30-08-2014 6:27pm

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Aye, would agree. But some feminist views are still important, e.g. when local high-school footballers videoing sexual assault of a young woman who's too drunk to consent (not drunk and still up for sex, but actually passed out). Now I know anyone would condemn this, not just feminists, but it's still a feminist issue.

Well you see for me it isn't a feminist issue. It's a "humanist" one. People being absolute scumbags in their behavior who should be put in the town square in stocks if I had my way. The problem comes when a fcuked up and tragic event like this is hijacked by the radicals and claimed to be a very widespread and society wide issue and an example of the patriarchy and the rape culture under its control at work etc.

What I find interesting is when actual examples of a culture of rape come up the silence can be deafening, or feminist voices remain at a remarkably low volume. EG the recent appalling sexual exploitation, rape and violence that involved over a thousand young women in Rotherham. Haven't seen or heard much about it at all from the usual feminist outlets. Search for rape culture on Jezebel and the results page gets very long, with many links on the subject, yet type in Rotherham and nada. Goes for many similar sites in the UK where it happened. Maybe it's the idea that non white rape culture exists in a multicultural society gets them twitchy.

Mike747 wrote: »

That's interesting. I'm a relatively young man and my experience with feminism has been entirely negative.

Well for me growing up it wasn't like that. The screwball ivory tower American college guff hadn't reached these shores and was pretty low level even in the US. Sure you had your Dworkins and similar from the 70's but they were seen as radicals and really left field for the most part. Germaine Greer would have been the most known and public and while seen as a radical by many she made a lot of objective sense too, particularly in the area of women's self image and sexuality. The constant low level stuff that has since entered the culture and cultural vocabulary wasn't around.

I didn't really notice it until the 90's and it really took off with the wider uptake of the interwebs. And the problem with the interwebs is it can a) give radicals a wider audience than they otherwise wouldn't reach and b) can make that audience look larger than it actually is and get more joining in thinking it's a bigger movement/philosophy. You can see this on the Men's rights side too. The medium tends to favour the extreme.

Wibbs · 30-08-2014 6:32pm

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Big difference between that though and being so destroyed drunk that you're crumpled up in a heap and a bunch of people are sexually assaulting you in various ways and putting it on social media. It is irresponsible to get that drunk, but a person simply should not sexually assault someone that inebriated/publicise it.

+1000. If you pass out drunk and for "fun" I decide to repeatedly kick you in the nuts, I am the dickhead 100% no arguments dickhead. You being drunk has pretty much nothing to do with it. Daft to get that drunk? Sure, but you should expect a level of background decency and restraint from those around you to not injure you. Would a non scumbag kick a drunken man in the street? Nope. Someone who finger rapes a passed out woman and videos it FFS, is pure scum and nothing less.

diveout · 30-08-2014 6:37pm

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Well yeh but besides those there are sensible people who know there's a difference between taking precautionary measures and victim-blaming, but nevertheless victim-blaming still occurs. If you're drunk and consent to sex (which is totally possible) and then regret it next morning, tough sh-t. Big difference between that though and being so destroyed drunk that you're crumpled up in a heap and a bunch of people are sexually assaulting you in various ways and putting it on social media. It is irresponsible to get that drunk, but a person simply should not sexually assault someone that inebriated/publicise it.

Yes. However, if you start talking about precautions and try to teach girls how to stay in control to the best they can, then they often go down the road of accusing you of victim blaming.

To me it's like don't open out a map in the middle of big city and target yourself as a tourist easy to mug. It just makes sense.

Men, Know Your Place!

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