Return of Kings, men's opinions

Wibbs · 24-12-2013 12:11pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Well, no. I'm, open to correction but I've yet to hear of a "male studies" college course or extremists from the movement being paid to teach them.

True enough S. However they're a small subset, loud enough in some media and maybe louder in the US across the board? Here in Ireland and Europe in general I've very rarely encountered this minority type in the wild.

Whether for good or for ill, the feminist movement is largely responsible for the emasculation of men in our culture. It seems overly simplistic to me to dismiss these guys as just hating women. As Mandela is frequently quoted as saying "No one is born hating another person", hatred is a response and it's my conjecture that the impact on society of the feminist movement (both militant and otherwise) is the root cause of the hatred these emasculated, confused and deeply disturbed men seem to have for women.

Firstly I would not believe the feminist movement responsible for the state of some men today. As a reaction with a vacuum left that some men find hard to fill yes, maybe, but not directly anyway. Again in the case of these particular guys and guys like them I'd see it as much more complex. Actually it might be as simple as an interweb place for guys to shoot the breeze in a "non PC" way, egging each other on. The stories of their conquests one example. If a third of those stories are true - and I'm being kind with a third - I'll buy a hat and eat it.

And it's not just the nutjobs: many mainstream feminists still rail against "the gender pay gap", "glass ceilings" etc. that simply don't exist any more once one delves beyond headline statistics.

I'd agree there TBH.

Because "equality" has being sought by a movement that only looked to promote the interests of a single gender, little consideration was given to the role of men in our changed society or to address the inequalities they face.

OK, but by blaming feminists/women, that leaves men and male society off the hook. Bollocks to that. When some feminists try that angle blaming men I call BS, so I'd call BS on this too. For me it's even worse. Damn near everything we see around us in the world men, designed and built it, a shítload even died for it. So you're saying this same gender became "emasculated" within a generation because women got the vote and equal pay? Eh no. If so it hardly reflects well on men as a gender. Plus outside of angry blogs and the dafter end of media I don't see too many examples of "emasculated" men in the world.

Femme_Fatale · 24-12-2013 12:18pm

Sleepy wrote: »

It seems overly simplistic to me to dismiss these guys as just hating women.

But prior to feminism there was hatred of women - to the point of subjugation. And it was what led to feminism.

these emasculated, confused and deeply disturbed men

How are they emasculated?

Most of the achievements of the feminist movement to date would be things I'd agree with by the way: equality of pay, access to education, right to vote etc. It's the refusal to accept that these have been achieved and the continued demands for equality of outcome rather than equality of access that make me consider the movement to have become a negative influence on society. And it's not just the nutjobs: many mainstream feminists still rail against "the gender pay gap", "glass ceilings" etc. that simply don't exist any more once one delves beyond headline statistics.

I fully agree, but it doesn't mean there aren't issues still affecting women due to their gender, just as there are issues affecting men due to their gender.

This unilateral approach to equality has lead to men being stripped of their old societal roles as breadwinner and provider

No they haven't.

They still have it, plus the choice to be stay-at-home dads. It's dopes like Michael O'Leary who (pretend to?) believe there's a problem with this. There should be paternity leave all right though.

GalwayGuy2 · 24-12-2013 12:29pm

Here in Ireland and Europe in general I've very rarely encountered this minority type in the wild.

Hmmm, in mass media I have. The swedish feminist society seems to have lost favour for being too radical, and, talking about Sweden, you'll hear plenty of daft opinions on the twitter page.

Also, you'll hear plenty of people say that pornography makes men rape with zero evidence to report that.

In fairness there is a large cultural and language gap between here and Europe, less so between here and America. So, it would be harder to hear of the 'crazies' from europe.

Sleepy · 24-12-2013 1:03pm

Wibbs wrote: »

True enough S. However they're a small subset, loud enough in some media and maybe louder in the US across the board? Here in Ireland and Europe in general I've very rarely encountered this minority type in the wild.

Ivanna Bacik is the first name that springs to mind.

Firstly I would not believe the feminist movement responsible for the state of some men today. As a reaction with a vacuum left that some men find hard to fill yes, maybe, but not directly anyway. Again in the case of these particular guys and guys like them I'd see it as much more complex. Actually it might be as simple as an interweb place for guys to shoot the breeze in a "non PC" way, egging each other on. The stories of their conquests one example. If a third of those stories are true - and I'm being kind with a third - I'll buy a hat and eat it.

I'd agree here to an extent, I'm not trying to say it's a direct and sole cause but in a world where feminism had never taken hold (which, to be fair, I'd agree would be a poorer society) I don't think there'd be as many of these morons.

OK, but by blaming feminists/women, that leaves men and male society off the hook. Bollocks to that. When some feminists try that angle blaming men I call BS, so I'd call BS on this too. For me it's even worse. Damn near everything we see around us in the world men, designed and built it, a shítload even died for it. So you're saying this same gender became "emasculated" within a generation because women got the vote and equal pay? Eh no. If so it hardly reflects well on men as a gender. Plus outside of angry blogs and the dafter end of media I don't see too many examples of "emasculated" men in the world.

I think the fact that the primary role-model for most men, their father, has become an out-dated template within a single generation. Obviously, it's different generations in different families but societally, I think it's been over the past 2/3 generations that this has been the case.

The only blame I'd really hold against feminism in this regard would have been the moves of second wave feminists to exclude men from the movement. To my mind, the movement should have evolved to one seeking equality instead of one seeking to tilt the scales entirely the other way and might have had men not been excluded from the process.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But prior to feminism there was hatred of women - to the point of subjugation. And it was what led to feminism.

I don't think you can necessarily equate sexism with hatred. As much as we all use the terms (and I'm as guilty of using them incorrectly at times as anyone) I genuinely believe there are very, very few true misandrists or misogynists in the world.

Even most of the morons on this forum don't actually hate women, they do have a very warped idea of a woman's supposed role in society but I'm not sure that translates to "hate".

Of course I'd agree that the subjugation of women what lead to feminism and I'd have marched with the first feminists.

I fully agree, but it doesn't mean there aren't issues still affecting women due to their gender, just as there are issues affecting men due to their gender.

So lets stop allowing gender to divide us and make all laws gender blind?

Shrobbs · 24-12-2013 1:06pm

I'd agree with the point made that misandry and mysogyny are much rarer than people generally assume.

Giving one gender more importance than the other doesn't mean you hate the gender you view as less important. It is sexist, but not misandrist/mysogynist.

Femme_Fatale · 24-12-2013 2:00pm

Genuine question: what do people mean when they say emasculation?
Eroding of traditional masculinity? Tbh, I don't buy that when guys who wear their heart on their sleeve can be told to "man up".
I'd apply it more to things like ads and other media constantly depicting men as gormless eejits.

Sleepy · 24-12-2013 2:11pm

I'm probably using the word to encompass far too much actually: the invalidation of the breadwinner role of men of previous generations (and thereby their fathers as role models), the demise of traditional male dominated industry and apprenticeships leading to fewer positive male role models, the emergence of the gormless idiot portrayal of men in advertising / media, the feminisation of the education system, the reduction of physical labour being a viable income source in western society etc.

Foxhound38 · 24-12-2013 2:16pm

Eejits...

That is all

shane9689 · 24-12-2013 2:50pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Reading through the site, by god there's some level of mad goin on alright. Thinking about the blokes on there and tying in with the recent PUA thread, I formed a half baked theory on them and why they might think along these lines.

Nailed it...i actually got into pua for awhile after a severe break up, and it did help me try to be more sociable with people, but on the whole its a really unhealthy and narcissistic approach to life..... but luckily i climbed out of that hole with an open mind that's seen the grass in both fields

shane9689 · 24-12-2013 3:15pm

sidenote, anyone else feel that the u.s is on a slippery slope to national insanity? i mean with all their war veterans messed up from war, their guns, their underprivileged, their overprivileged, the constant "war on terror scare" alongside actual terrorist attacks, their ridiculous airport security and their strange and privatized megaprisons! massive narcottics problems, their massive racist devides (although thats diminishing slightly it seems), their mass survalence of their own people, their extremely corrupt government, their reliance on heavily medicating anyone with a slight depression or mental problem, not forgetting your standard nut job and the fact the their country is heavily reliant on cheap illegal migrants....list goes on in that place and it always sounds like its getting worse, is their country going to **** are has it always been that way?

Femme_Fatale · 24-12-2013 4:48pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm probably using the word to encompass far too much actually: the invalidation of the breadwinner role of men of previous generations (and thereby their fathers as role models)

How has this happened? It's still mostly the man in a two-parent/mixed-sex family who is the main breadwinner.

the demise of traditional male dominated industry and apprenticeships

The demise?

the feminisation of the education system

In what sense? All I can think of is most teachers being women, but that has always been the way.

the reduction of physical labour being a viable income source in western society etc.

That's emasculation?

And I cannot see how feminism is to blame for a lot of the above.

seenitall · 24-12-2013 5:02pm

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

And I cannot see how feminism is to blame for a lot of the above.

The advance of gender equality in a society brings about the loss of privilege of one gender, among other things.

There will then be a portion of that gender becoming unhappy bunnies with how things are developing, surely that goes to follow. There will be lots of talk about the emasculation and the loss of traditional values, like it's a bad thing.

This is why you get less or no mysoginist nutters and ranters in poor societies that by and large have one gender subjugated and treated as less valuable. Men in those countries have no need to rant as they ARE in fact kings in terms of gender (in)equality, so all is right with the world.

The Return of Kings - if you consider that name itself, it tells you all this, what these guys are really pining for. No need to click the link even.

Pushtrak · 24-12-2013 5:19pm

seenitall wrote: »

The advance of gender equality in a society brings about the loss of privilege of one gender, among other things.

There will then be a portion of that gender becoming unhappy bunnies with how things are developing, surely that goes to follow. There will be lots of talk about the emasculation and the loss of traditional values, like it's a bad thing.

This is why you get less or no mysoginist nutters and ranters in poor societies that by and large have one gender subjugated and treated as less valuable. Men in those countries have no need to rant as they ARE in fact kings in terms of gender (in)equality, so all is right with the world.

The Return of Kings - if you consider that name itself, it tells you all this, what these guys are really pining for. No need to click the link even.

Appropriate user name is appropriate.

Floraidh · 24-12-2013 5:20pm

There has been over the century a shift in society where attitudes to women have changed. This has been mostly in women`s traditional roles as a homemaker/men`s as provider.
After the 1st/2nd world wars, most countries changed more and more introduced and accepted more women in the workplace. Women became more independent and less dependant on men a s a soul provider. Therefore the shift from housewife been expected role for woman to family plus career as been acceptable.Women sucessfuly showed they could managed jobs as well as family. Most people see this as a good step for women and a better way forward.However some men (as in ROK )blame this transition in roles for societies ills (but will not dare voice this on line)Today, women are valued in worlplace and giving more opportunity to go back to work after having children.More and more single working and finacially independant woman in some cases are in longtime succesful careers, therefore have more assertive attitude than in the past (as they could not).To a some extent,a minority display a laddish attitude.But just a minority.
It seems to me that ROK tar all woman with a negative brush and seem to have built a site to vent out there anger at woman because they really want women back in the 18th century.At that time, woman had no say in what happened to them and were very powerless.Women will not go back to that role again,hench the anger therefore call woman sluts etc and "Best we go abroad and find real obedient woman" talk.The real problem is, men like this are ignorant and cant accept the world has change from 18th cent-to present modern day life.They need to get over themselves.Pick up a book and research History and learn from past mistakes first.

UCDVet · 24-12-2013 6:31pm

I don't see anything wrong with holding those beliefs...I don't agree with all of them, but I certainly don't see anything wrong with people who find value in traditional gender roles.

I also don't see anything wrong with people who don't find value in traditional gender roles.

I personally know girls who want to be treated, 'like a lady' and are quite happy being the traditional woman. I also know girls who don't.

I think people should be free to advocate their lifestyles as they see fit, within reason. Just like advocating a religion - you can tell me why Christianity is great and hang out with Christians all day....just don't stone any non-believers or try to pass laws mandating I have to pray and we're cool.

Femme_Fatale · 24-12-2013 6:35pm

UCDVet wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with holding those beliefs...I don't agree with all of them, but I certainly don't see anything wrong with people who find value in traditional gender roles.

I also don't see anything wrong with people who don't find value in traditional gender roles.

I personally know girls who want to be treated, 'like a lady' and are quite happy being the traditional woman. I also know girls who don't.

I think people should be free to advocate their lifestyles as they see fit, within reason. Just like advocating a religion - you can tell me why Christianity is great and hang out with Christians all day....just don't stone any non-believers or try to pass laws mandating I have to pray and we're cool.

Yeh agreed but that's not what this website is about.

GalwayGuy2 · 24-12-2013 8:28pm

The advance of gender equality in a society brings about the loss of privilege of one gender, among other things.

There will then be a portion of that gender becoming unhappy bunnies with how things are developing, surely that goes to follow. There will be lots of talk about the emasculation and the loss of traditional values, like it's a bad thing.

This is why you get less or no mysoginist nutters and ranters in poor societies that by and large have one gender subjugated and treated as less valuable. Men in those countries have no need to rant as they ARE in fact kings in terms of gender (in)equality, so all is right with the world.

The Return of Kings - if you consider that name itself, it tells you all this, what these guys are really pining for. No need to click the link even.

Hmmm, that's one way of looking at things.

In my opinion, a flawed way, but each to their own.

Return of Kings, men's opinions

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