RIAI Technologists Register

kkelliher · 02-08-2014 2:21pm

if that is the reaction to a simple opinion, best of luck dealing with the bigger issues that arise.

4Sticks · 02-08-2014 8:25pm

kkelliher wrote: »

best of luck with it but personally i dont believe having a uk contact number is the way to go in terms of attracting numbers for an irish issue.

none of your business is it moderator ?

4Sticks · 02-08-2014 8:26pm

kkelliher wrote: »

best of luck

and you are sincere when you say that right?

kkelliher · 02-08-2014 9:44pm

4Sticks wrote: »

none of your business is it moderator ?

and you wonder why your struggling to generate support for your profession. i offer an opinion and you offer your usual sarcastic remarks. i merely offered an opinion on something that from experience in similar societies might cause an issue.

kkelliher · 02-08-2014 9:45pm

4Sticks wrote: »

and you are sincere when you say that right?

i fully believe all professions have an ability to apply their trade so yes.

4Sticks · 03-08-2014 12:31am

kkelliher wrote: »

and you wonder why your struggling to generate support for your profession.

No I don't. The RIAI leadership has badly miscalculated. By cosying up with the DOE and creating what it believes to be a privileged postion in legislation it fails to take account of market realities. There are not enough architects to fulfil the Design Certifier and Assigned Certifier roles and when the market recovers to a more normal level of activity this will become more than apparent. By failing to advoacate on behalf of it's AT members the RIAI has sealed it's own fate.

kkelliher wrote: »

i merely offered an opinion on something that from experience in similar societies might cause an issue.

What experience ? how many societies that you deem similar to ours do you claim to have such experience of ?

4Sticks · 03-08-2014 12:35am

kkelliher wrote: »

a simple opinion

your own words

No6 · 03-08-2014 3:41am

kkelliher wrote: »

if that is the reaction to a simple opinion, best of luck dealing with the bigger issues that arise.

Its a reaction to a unnecessary comment. This is our career's we are fighting for, who cares about a bloody phone number!!. Your qualification what you meant from similar circumstances does improve things, but as I said, if there are irish AT's out there who cannot join CIAT's register because they are a UK organisation well they deserve what they get.

CIAT for anyone who is interested is an international organisation representing Architectural Technology in the UK, Hong Kong and Ireland. Earlier this year the Council approved setting up other international centres in Australia, Asia and the Americas. This is in the very early stages but eventually will lead to CIAT being the organisation for Architectural Technology across the world similar to how the RICS is a world wide organisation for surveying.

kkelliher · 03-08-2014 9:41am

4Sticks wrote: »

No I don't. The RIAI leadership has badly miscalculated. By cosying up with the DOE and creating what it believes to be a privileged postion in legislation it fails to take account of market realities. There are not enough architects to fulfil the Design Certifier and Assigned Certifier roles and when the market recovers to a more normal level of activity this will become more than apparent. By failing to advoacate on behalf of it's AT members the RIAI has sealed it's own fate.

What experience ? how many societies that you deem similar to ours do you claim to have such experience of ?

1) if the riai have miscalculated then you should learn from their mistakes

2) i have been on the irish branch committee of 3 institutes which are hq in the uk

kkelliher · 03-08-2014 10:43am

No6 wrote: »

Its a reaction to a unnecessary comment. This is our career's we are fighting for, who cares about a bloody phone number!!.

you may deem it unnecessary but its actually decent advise if you care to listen to opinions outside of your own. i have no vested interest so why its felt necessary to respond in this way is beyond me

kkelliher · 03-08-2014 10:47am

4Sticks wrote: »

your own words

i think that response says alot more about you than me. i cant see how you believe your approach is helpful to your cause. if you have all the answers why have you not got it sorted by now?

4Sticks · 03-08-2014 1:46pm

kkelliher wrote: »

you may deem it unnecessary but its actually decent advise

Fair enough I freely admit to reading your comment in a destructive light , not helpful. I apologize for that.

To all AT's concerned
About the "UK number" thing I have heard Colin Orr , CIAT speak at the IATGN in 2007 and make the point that if a critical mass of Irish membership develops then an Irish CIAT office would follow (and an Irish number)

At that time one of our "educators" cautioned that we should seriosly consider the RIAI as "the only Irish home" . AT's dithered than. Many in LA employement had the RIAI subs paid for by their employer others stuck with the RIAI because their PI provider required them to - inertia set in unfortunately. And susequently the RIAI let us down spectacularly. (Many Architect RIAI members feel it let them down too for not being more agreesive in confronting and arguing against a flawed pieice of legilation but that is seperate matter)

CIAT are presenetly now the only show in town negotiating with the DOE for our full particpation as Assigned Certifier / Design Certifier and the outgoing minister has stated publicly that he was listening to them. The only "support" we will get in this circumstance is that we give to ourselves.

To all seeking to build or extend a house
The exclusion of AT limits your options to seek profesionals for your new house or any extension to your existing house bigger than 40m2.

No6 · 03-08-2014 2:59pm

kkelliher wrote: »

you may deem it unnecessary but its actually decent advise if you care to listen to opinions outside of your own. i have no vested interest so why its felt necessary to respond in this way is beyond me

If you were involved in this as I have you might understand, your statement while coming from your own experience sounded a lot more akin to the nonsense coming from the RIAI/DIT camp. I have listened to their bull**** for years, why cant we have this why can't we have that, the RIAI is the only way. While you may not have realised it it sounded like more of their bull****. I am sure they will come out with their own register for AT's in the next few days / weeks and will continue to attempt to restrict AT's. They will have an Irish phone no but you'd be as well off calling the social welfare office at least you might get something out of them!

TaraP · 06-08-2014 8:28am

The focus of the Register is recognition of ***all competent*** AT professionals. We are not just looking at CIAT Members....non-members are encouraged to join the Register and there is no obligation to join CIAT. I hope it's clear that we are trying to serve the profession and act in the best interests of competent ATs, rather so surely the fact that we have a UK phone number is fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. We are required to undertake a consultation process to demonstrate feasibility of making the Register statutory and the more Registrants we have on the voluntary Register, the stronger our case for a statutory Register is. There is strength in numbers.

sonnyblack · 06-08-2014 8:36am

TaraP wrote: »

The focus of the Register is recognition of ***all competent*** AT professionals. We are not just looking at CIAT Members....non-members are encouraged to join the Register and there is no obligation to join CIAT. I hope it's clear that we are trying to serve the profession and act in the best interests of competent ATs, rather so surely the fact that we have a UK phone number is fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. We are required to undertake a consultation process to demonstrate feasibility of making the Register statutory and the more Registrants we have on the voluntary Register, the stronger our case for a statutory Register is. There is strength in numbers.

Tara, is it correct to say that the more Technicians/Technologists you have on the register, the more leverage you will have to go back to the minister and say that there are 3/4 thousand qualified people here that are cut out of the regulations. Minister, do something about it!
If that is the case I will certainly listen to the call to arms and join up.

TaraP · 06-08-2014 8:42am

I would say it can only help prove our case sonnyblack.

Also, it's easy enough for existing Chartered Members of CIAT to join the Register, so by non-members of CIAT joining up as well, surely that would send a strong message?

No6 · 16-08-2014 1:00pm

Perhaps the title of this thread should now be changed to CIAT Architectural Technologist Register as they have one and the RIAI don't!!

sonnyblack · 20-08-2014 4:35pm

So it's warp speed towards the CIAT seminar at the Airport hotel in Cork tomorrow. It's long past the time that the Jedi Knight Technicians confronted the Evil Empire RIAI

sonnyblack · 22-08-2014 8:51am

Attended the CIAT Seminar in Cork yesterday. Only 25 people there. A disgaceful turnout for the magnitude of what was being discussed. Sometimes I think AT's are their own worst enemies. No interest in a cause like this that will have a fundamental impact on their careers.

CIAT gave an impressive speech on why AT's are so crucial when it comes to BC(A)R It's very simple really. Unless AT's join the voluntary CIAT register in droves and fill in the nomination forms to join up, there isn't a hope in hell of the Minister amending the BC(A)R to include AT's as competant people for the DC & AC roles. It costs €150. A small price to pay for what they are trying to do. Quite clearly the RIAI do not want us about the place and will do nothing for us.

There is currently only 170 on register. No preferred figures were given but in my opinion there needs to be at least 600 to make the Minister sit up and take notice. We undertake the DC & AC roles by default every day we go into work. If you are an AT out there and are in contact with 4/5 people that you went to college with, get onto them now and get them to sign up.

Link below. Join now

https://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/07/31/ciat-architectural-technologists-register-goes-live/

galwaytt · 22-08-2014 12:06pm

sonnyblack wrote: »

Attended the CIAT Seminar in Cork yesterday. Only 25 people there. A disgaceful turnout for the magnitude of what was being discussed. Sometimes I think AT's are their own worst enemies. No interest in a cause like this that will have a fundamental impact on their careers.

...god, that is depressing.:(

galwaytt · 22-08-2014 12:37pm

sonnyblack wrote: »

Attended the CIAT Seminar in Cork yesterday. Only 25 people there. A disgaceful turnout for the magnitude of what was being discussed. Sometimes I think AT's are their own worst enemies. No interest in a cause like this that will have a fundamental impact on their careers.

CIAT gave an impressive speech on why AT's are so crucial when it comes to BC(A)R It's very simple really. Unless AT's join the voluntary CIAT register in droves and fill in the nomination forms to join up, there isn't a hope in hell of the Minister amending the BC(A)R to include AT's as competant people for the DC & AC roles. It costs €150. A small price to pay for what they are trying to do. Quite clearly the RIAI do not want us about the place and will do nothing for us.

There is currently only 170 on register. No preferred figures were given but in my opinion there needs to be at least 600 to make the Minister sit up and take notice. We undertake the DC & AC roles by default every day we go into work. If you are an AT out there and are in contact with 4/5 people that you went to college with, get onto them now and get them to sign up.

Link below. Join now

https://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/07/31/ciat-architectural-technologists-register-goes-live/

What's the position of those training and educating AT's -colleges etc - they should be pushing AT's to join automatically.

No6 · 25-08-2014 12:41pm

galwaytt wrote: »

What's the position of those training and educating AT's -colleges etc - they should be pushing AT's to join automatically.

Unfortunately a certain college who likes to think they lead the way in all things related to AT have firmly planted their flag in the RIAI camp several years ago and will not change no matter what. They have also lead a lot of the other colleges along the same path. Its a disgrace and they have lead a large number of AT's by the nose to too long too!!

If Irish AT's cannot be bothered to pay their 150 and get on the register then I am afraid we deserve what we have got, nothing!!

sonnyblack · 25-08-2014 1:04pm

Would you care to name that college? I'd certainly be in favour of alerting CIAT to this and suggesting that they get someone on the ground to give an overview of the importance of AT's putting their name down on the voluntary register. CIAT should be doing a roadshow to all colleges in the country alerting prospective 3/4 year AT students that they should put their names on the voluntary register as soon as they qualify.

sydthebeat · 25-08-2014 1:10pm

sonnyblack wrote: »

Would you care to name that college? I'd certainly be in favour of alerting CIAT to this and suggesting that they get someone on the ground to give an overview of the importance of AT's putting their name down on the voluntary register. CIAT should be doing a roadshow to all colleges in the country alerting prospective 3/4 year AT students that they should put their names on the voluntary register as soon as they qualify.

They have been banging their heads against that wall for as long as i can remember... and i started college in 1994

RITwing · 25-08-2014 1:16pm

DIT.

sonnyblack · 25-08-2014 2:06pm

The big laugh that came out of the seminar was that CIAT confirmed that the Minister told them that he would need someone independant to confirm that the calibre of AT on the proposed register would be suitably qualified to take on the role of AC & DC. Take one guess who will be assessing this........

Only the RIAI LOL. The very body that does not want AT's in the roles

CIAT not pleased at all but what could they do?

RITwing · 25-08-2014 2:36pm

sonnyblack wrote: »

CIAT not pleased at all but what could they do?

Inform the market. Every one who wants to build or extend +40m2 their home is being screwed over here.

Corkblowin · 25-08-2014 4:30pm

sonnyblack wrote: »

CIAT not pleased at all but what could they do?

At least ask that an assessment panel be made up of members of each of the registered bodies - RIAI, IEI and SCSI. Might result in a fairer hearing.

No6 · 26-08-2014 7:09am

sonnyblack wrote: »

The big laugh that came out of the seminar was that CIAT confirmed that the Minister told them that he would need someone independant to confirm that the calibre of AT on the proposed register would be suitably qualified to take on the role of AC & DC. Take one guess who will be assessing this........

Only the RIAI LOL. The very body that does not want AT's in the roles

CIAT not pleased at all but what could they do?

That's his English solution to and Irish problem then!! Classic then he buggers of to Europe!!

TaraP · 27-08-2014 9:19am

sonnyblack wrote: »

The big laugh that came out of the seminar was that CIAT confirmed that the Minister told them that he would need someone independant to confirm that the calibre of AT on the proposed register would be suitably qualified to take on the role of AC & DC. Take one guess who will be assessing this........

Only the RIAI LOL. The very body that does not want AT's in the roles

CIAT not pleased at all but what could they do?

Hi all

I wasn't at the seminar in Cork so I don't know what exactly was said with regard to RIAI assessing/confirming ATs competence, but that is not correct. If RIAI and CIAT set up registers that are made statutory, it was mooted that a common standard would need to be developed that ATs would need to attain in order to join either register to ensure parity. This would need to be done in conjunction with RIAI and CIAT (and others as necessary). That is the only discussion we have had about calibre of ATs. I hope that clears matters up.

TaraP

sonnyblack · 27-08-2014 10:10am

TaraP wrote: »

Hi all

I wasn't at the seminar in Cork so I don't know what exactly was said with regard to RIAI assessing/confirming ATs competence, but that is not correct. If RIAI and CIAT set up registers that are made statutory, it was mooted that a common standard would need to be developed that ATs would need to attain in order to join either register to ensure parity. This would need to be done in conjunction with RIAI and CIAT (and others as necessary). That is the only discussion we have had about calibre of ATs. I hope that clears matters up.

TaraP

I admire your optimism in thinking that the RIAI will be prepared to set up a statutary register recognising that AT's are competant to act as the AC & DC roles. Any information that I've heard indicates that the RIAI have no such intention of ever allowing AT's to act in the roles. AT's are Ancillary Certifiers only in their eyes.

sydthebeat · 27-08-2014 10:32am

sonnyblack wrote: »

I admire your optimism in thinking that the RIAI will be prepared to set up a statutary register recognising that AT's are competant to act as the AC & DC roles. Any information that I've heard indicates that the RIAI have no such intention of ever allowing AT's to act in the roles. AT's are Ancillary Certifiers only in their eyes.

to be fair to TaraP, she didnt at any stage refer to RIAI being prepared to accept ATs as assigned certifiers. If you read between her lines she is saying that a "joint standard" needs to be formed to "ensure parity" of the registers.

This means that one register cannot be for AC's if the other doesnt purport to that standard, so it looks like its within the RIAIs remit to veto any attempt of CIAT to achieve assigned certifier standard.

why any architectural technician is still a member of RIAI is beyond me, its mid boggling.

sonnyblack · 27-08-2014 10:53am

sydthebeat wrote: »

to be fair to TaraP, she didnt at any stage refer to RIAI being prepared to accept ATs as assigned certifiers. If you read between her lines she is saying that a "joint standard" needs to be formed to "ensure parity" of the registers.

This means that one register cannot be for AC's if the other doesnt purport to that standard, so it looks like its within the RIAIs remit to veto any attempt of CIAT to achieve assigned certifier standard.

why any architectural technician is still a member of RIAI is beyond me, its mid boggling.

I hear what you're saying but I'm baffled. Why are CIAT pursuing their own register if it will mean nothing without the RIAI setting up a similar register? They have zero chance if 2 registers have to be up and running to the 'same standard'. The RIAI will not bother to take part in any discussions to form a 'same standard'. Why would they? My understanding was AT's would register for the voluntary register and then apply to the CIAT with evidence of their qualifications & experience to be recognised as capable of acting in the AC & DC roles. The minister would then be asked to change the holy trinity of competant people to include AT's. The CIAT are a worldwide recognised body in Architectural Technology. If Irish AT's can measure up to their standard what further need is there be linked to a 'same standard' RIAI register. My clear understanding from the seminar was that the CIAT are driving on with their own plans. The RIAI would then be asked by the minister to comment on their proposals and level of qualification/experience that AT's would be required to acheive and respond.

RITwing · 27-08-2014 11:25am

sonnyblack wrote: »

Why are CIAT pursuing their own register if it will mean nothing without the RIAI setting up a similar register?

The RIAI have overplayed their hand. They belive thay have gained a risk/reward advantage in their SI 9 dealing with the DOE ( by betraying AT's) but this will backfire on them. When something approaching a normal level of construction activity re appears the market will not stand for Merrions Squares nonsense.

The CIAT register needs to be be strong and vital and ready when the inevitable happens and a DOE minister is forced -by the market- to open up the AC/DC role to AT's.

TaraP · 27-08-2014 11:34am

If there are 2 registers for the same function they will need to have a consistent standard. As you know CIAT is pursuing a register for AC/DC.

If RIAI does go ahead with development of a AC/DC register, then we will need to work with them to develop a common standard for ATs in Ireland if it is deemed that our standard is not appropriate for whatever reason. (I would suggest that our standards are fit for purpose though).

There does not need to be a RIAI-operated register in order for CIAT to have a register and vice versa. CIAT is working to its own established standards whilst its register is voluntary and if it is made statutory and in the absence of any other register, we will use our own standard if accepted by the Minister.

sonnyblack · 27-08-2014 12:20pm

TaraP wrote: »

If there are 2 registers for the same function they will need to have a consistent standard. As you know CIAT is pursuing a register for AC/DC.

If RIAI does go ahead with development of a AC/DC register, then we will need to work with them to develop a common standard for ATs in Ireland if it is deemed that our standard is not appropriate for whatever reason. (I would suggest that our standards are fit for purpose though).

There does not need to be a RIAI-operated register in order for CIAT to have a register and vice versa. CIAT is working to its own established standards whilst its register is voluntary and if it is made statutory and in the absence of any other register, we will use our own standard if accepted by the Minister.

I have no issue with what you are saying about any register having the same standard but in my humble opinion the RIAI will never establish such a register with an aim to allow AT's as DC & AC. The CIAT will need to drive on themselves. This is why it is so vital for experienced AT's out there to fill in the application form for the Architectural Technologists Register and prepare their submissions for CIAT approval asap afterwards. If there are 600 experienced AT's on the register having proved their credentials it strengthens CIAT's hand in getting the minister to add us to the holy trinity of competant people. This is a historic oppurtunity for us to be finally recognised in industry for tasks we undertake every day. If we don't seize it we only have ourselves to blame.

TaraP · 28-08-2014 8:28am

CIAT is pushing forward with the register regardless.

Well said about the register. If ATs don't sign up to a register to demonstrate demand for a statutory change then that's their choice, but without numbers and demand why would a statutory register be established? It would be deemed unnecessary if no one wants to sign up to it.

The process is in place, the ball is in your court.

Corkblowin · 28-08-2014 9:38am

I assume that CIAT have listed all of us profile candidates as applying to be on the register, or do we have to do that separately?

TaraP · 28-08-2014 10:03am

The register is voluntary so no one will be added without their consent. Chartered Members have to 'nominate' themselves to join and sign the declaration.

Anyone who is not a Chartered Member has to apply and complete the assessment process because only Chartered Members will have already demonstrated competence to us. We can't vouch for anyone else as we haven't assessed their competence, so no one can join the Register without going through the formal assessment process.

Corkblowin · 28-08-2014 11:14am

I understand that Tara, what I meant was that the primary reason many have applied to CIAT for membership is to recognised as competent and be admitted to the voluntary register. I understand they are separate, but to me it seemed sensible that if I've to go through an assessment process in any event I may as well achieve chartered status while doing so.

So I would have thought it legitimate for the CIAT to say that xx number of people are in the process of being assessed, and if they are deemed suitable, will be eligible for inclusion on the register.

TaraP · 28-08-2014 12:10pm

So, anyone that joins the register can simply be a registrant if they don't want to be a Chartered Member of CIAT for whatever reason.

If they do want to become Chartered, they have a couple more things to do including the professional interview and there would be a further fee to align it to others seeking Chartered status. The process to join the register is based on the existing Professional Assessment process to achieve MCIAT.

The problem is, unless application forms are being filled in and returned then we don't know how many are applying. Once people apply we can get the ball rolling and get people assessed and on the register very quickly.

Glebee · 28-08-2014 12:19pm

Im currently looking at getting my paperwork in order to progress to MCIAT. Its just trying to organise yourself to actually do it...

Bazlyons · 30-08-2014 1:42pm

The RIAI issued an email on Friday in relation to their own voluntary AT register.

Quote:

"As you will know from a previous circulation, the RIAI intends to set up a Voluntary Register of Architectural Technologists. There is a commitment from the DECLG to advance a Statutory Register for Architectural Technologists but this RIAI Register, at this time, does not have a Statutory basis.

In order to satisfy Date Protection issue, you have a choice of either:
1. Showing the full address held by the RIAI as above or as you may wish to see it corrected or
2. Simply showing your Region ie: Dublin 2, Tipperary etc.

I would be grateful if you could respond by 8th September at the latest. If no response is received, it will be assumed that you have no objection to your full address being shown on the Voluntary Register. The RIAI sees the Voluntary Register as an important step in reinforcing the role of Architectural Technologists"

End Quote

There is no mention of whether persons on their AT register will be eligible to act in the DC/AC Roles so i sent John Graby the following clarification question:

"Dear john,
Before my name is included on the RIAI Voluntary Register of Architectural Technologists I need the following clarified in relation to the RIAI’s policy.

In time if the RIAI Voluntary Register of Architectural Technologists achieves statutory recognition, will the RIAI deem Architectural Technologists on their register competent to act in the roles of Design Certifier and/or Assigned Certifier as specified under the BC(A)R,

I’d appreciate clarification of this matter at your earliest convenience,"

I'll keep you posted of his response.

BAZ

PS i'm not joining it either way just wanted to see what the Royal's would say. CIAT all the way.

sonnyblack · 30-08-2014 2:10pm

Excellent idea baz. What are the bets about whether he'll respond. Guaranteed he won't. Ciat all the way indeed.

sydthebeat · 30-08-2014 3:35pm

Very sneaky to only be offering an "opt out" rather than an "opt in" .....

Bazlyons · 30-08-2014 3:37pm

par for the course i'd suggest

Glebee · 30-08-2014 5:00pm

As an architect college said to me the RIAI is there to represent Architects. Full stop. As far as he was concerned it had never done anything for technicians and never wanted to and alot of that was down to snobbery he felt.. All techs should be on board the CIAT train and once and for all get somebody with technicians interest at heart.

sonnyblack · 01-09-2014 9:29am

One thing I don't understand about the proposed RIAI register. TaraP, you might be able to enlighten me. If both the CIAT and RIAI registers are are meant to operate to the same standard, does this mean that the RIAI register would have to propose AT's as AC & DC similar to CIAT? Otherwise both registers are surely not operating to the same standards.

Bazlyons · 01-09-2014 9:49am

I imagine they would be operating to the same standards for acceptance onto the register. but if the RIAI one doesnt allow AT to act in the the DC/ AC roles then it's redundant.

I would urge all AT's to support the CIAT one or explain to the rest of us why they see the RIAI as a better option.

RITwing · 01-09-2014 9:53am

sonnyblack the RIAI are being disengenuous. They are at the DOE to frustrate the advancement of AT's.
They wish us to particpate as ancilliary certifiers only.

In return for a DOE confered favoured status under SI 9 the RIAI are playing ball with an official policy to "work with" SI 9 and avoid political embaressment to the govt. No fight for better buildings sadly and no regard for the wider societal and economic costs of inadaquet building standards.

Architects should lead the way morally in seeking better for our society and in fairness many individual architects do just that.
But the RIAI does not. Do not seek fairness or justice for society in general or AT's in particular in any of it's actions.

.

RIAI Technologists Register

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