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Love, Hell and the nature of God.

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    #32
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    JimiTime wrote: »
    When was hell created? Where did the wicked go before it was created? I am assuming it was created after Job, as the book of Job tells us of Lucifer still being in Gods presence?

    I don't see how that is relevant. Satan is not in hell now. The wicked went to Hades before hell was created.


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    #33
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    JimiTime wrote: »
    so this equates to, we can't rationalise it, but we must just accept it?
    We can't rationalize because we don't know what God knows. We don't understand the enormity of sin.
    JimiTime wrote: »
    Do you think it is wrong to question what you believe? Do you think its Satan trying to get into you when you start to doubt and question certain things? Do you feel disloyal in doubting and questioning these things?
    I do question things very much. I've always been that way. I've yet to encounter anything in the Catholic faith that didn't stand up to scrutiny. It makes a lot of sense when you look at what the Church *actually* teaches and not listen to Chinese whispers.
    JimiTime wrote: »
    When was hell created? Where did the wicked go before it was created? I am assuming it was created after Job, as the book of Job tells us of Lucifer still being in Gods presence?
    I don't know when Hell was created but it must be been before Adam's time because Adam was tempted by the serpent in the garden. Eve wouldn't have sinned if it weren't for the devils temptation.

    Rev 12:7 And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: 8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

    Matthew 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.


    So it looks like it created on or before the battle in Heaven.

    God bless,
    Noel.


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    #34
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I don't know when Hell was created but it must be been before Adam's time because Adam was tempted by the serpent in the garden. Eve wouldn't have sinned if it weren't for the devils temptation.

    Not at all. There is no requirement for hell to have been created for Satan to have been active on earth. Indeed, it is not necessary for Satan to have been cast out of heaven for him to be active on the earth. I am personally inclined to believe that Satan was not cast out until the death & resurrection of Christ. Since then he is still active on earth but no longer has access to the presence of God to accuse God's people as he did in the books of Job and Zechariah. That, however, may be for another thread!


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    #35
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    PDN wrote: »
    Not at all. There is no requirement for hell to have been created for Satan to have been active on earth.
    Yes, I'm inclined to agree. But we do know that Hell existed while Christ walked the earth.
    PDN wrote: »
    Indeed, it is not necessary for Satan to have been cast out of heaven for him to be active on the earth. I am personally inclined to believe that Satan was not cast out until the death & resurrection of Christ.
    That can't be right. How could and enemy of God exist in Heaven enjoying the Beatific Vision?


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    #36
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    PDN wrote: »
    The wicked went to Hades before hell was created.
    How do you know that Hades and Hell are different? FYI, The CC teaches that the souls of the damned go immediately to Hell.


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    #37
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    kelly1 wrote: »
    That can't be right. How could and enemy of God exist in Heaven enjoying the Beatific Vision?

    Oh I certainly don't think Satan would enjoy it at all - quite the opposite. In Job we see that Satan had the ability to enter into God's presence and accuse Job:

    One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
    Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. (Job 1:6-12)


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    #38
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    kelly1 wrote: »
    How do you know that Hades and Hell are different? FYI, The CC teaches that the souls of the damned go immediately to Hell.

    FYI I'm afraid that what the RCC teaches isn't a factor in whether I believe a doctrine or not, either positively or negatively.

    The place of the dead (Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek) is where all dead people went prior to the death and resurrection of Christ. The King James mistranslation of the Bible has caused a lot of unnecessary confusion by variously translating Sheol as 'the grave' 'the pit' or 'hell'.

    If Sheol/Hades and hell are the same then you are forced to believe that Joseph and Jacob went to hell (Gen 37:35) and that Job wanted God to hide him for a while in hell (Job 14:13). You also have David claiming that God is present in hell (Psalm 139:8).


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    #39
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    That is the bottom line.
    God is a very jealous God

    "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the
    LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God "Exodus 34:14".

    He does not take it well when we start listening to Satan his enemy, inclining our ear and heart toward him. Just as you would become upset and jealous when your misses would start to show signs of unfaithfulness and start flirting with other people even so God becomes upset and jealous when we show signs of unfaithfulness and start flirting with Satan.

    Wow. i wasn't expecting that. So out of his jealousy he tortures the wicked for eternity? Also, your analogy about a wifes unfaithfullness. Well, tbh, i would be absolutely, a)heartbroken, b)utterly betrayed and c)extremely angry. However, as much as I'd probably want inflict pain on her for doing it, I still would 'never' want her to be tortured for all eternity.
    This is the harsh reality, it shows the other side of a loving God that is Jealous, You choose to serve Satan in this life you will spend eternity tormented by Satan in the next. You choose to serve the lord in this life, you will spend eternity with the lord in the next.

    again Wow. i didn't expect that. Another side to him? If God 'is' love. He can never just switch off this. So saying there is another 'side' to him I find very strange indeed. Jealousy also does not represent the behaviour, it defines the feeling.
    All non believers are spiritually dead anyway, even in this life and will continue that way into the next. The wages of their unbelief (Sin) is death. (The saved person can also backslide into sin and lead themselves into to spitirual death in the next life.)

    I believe this is a wake up call to show just how serious he is.

    I'm a bit confused here:confused: you say non believers are 'spiritually dead' anyway. So if they are already spiritually dead, then they can't die spiritually again can they? I'm beginning to get completely lost:confused:
    Maybe someone else can answer this one.

    So there is no common doctrine on this then?


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    #40
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Sorry guys. I'll be away a few days, but i promise to have to get back to you all on my return. Thanks PDN and Wolfsbane for entering the thread.

    Talk soon,
    Jimi.


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    #41
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    Hi, JimiTime

    Apologies for not engaging earlier, but I have been busy elsewhere.

    No need for apologies, delighted you can bring your knowledge to the table.

    Why would God choose conscious eternal punishment rather than annihilation as the appropriate response to man's sin? The answer is not explicity revealed, but we may well deduce it was either our natures (immortal therefore cannot be annihilated) or the magnitude of the offence (sin against an infinitely holy God) - or both. If we are not immortal, then it is the latter alone.

    Again, there is two questions I would ask in relation to this. a) Where do you get the doctrine of us all being immortal? and b) In relation to the magnitude of the offence. Jesus paid the debt for mankind. So are you saying that those who don't accept Christ have not had their debt paid? and in turn have no way of ever paying that debt? This brings up the question again, that the doctrine of a fiery hell has no purpose but to see people suffer for no purpose does it not?

    The reason Christians believe in conscious eternal punishment is not that we see clearly the reason for it, rather that we clearly see it taught by God in His word.
    Ok, so are you saying that it seems harsh to you? In your current understanding do you see it as just?

    Likewise, we do not see clearly the reason why God should save any sinners, but we clearly see it taught in His word.

    Personally, I see a reason. God 'is' Love. Its a purpose. 'Why did he bother giving his Son for us?'. Simple, because he Loves us so.
    No, it is not necessarily wrong. It may be God's way of making you search the Scriptures for doctrine, rather than just heeding men. But it is sinful to question what those Scriptures make clear to you. When they are clear, we must believe them, even if we don't understand. Otherwise, Satan will indeed be at work.

    personally, i believe if you have a living faith and a true honesty of heart, no question is sinful, no matter how 'obvious' the answer seems to be. Also, I picked up on this "it is sinful to question what the scriptures make clear to 'you'". Context is one thing for understanding scriptures, but tbh, what the scriptures best contribution is for me, is that it tells us who God is. For instance, If someone said to me that my brother stole a car. I'd be 100% certain that he either a)didn't b)some misunderstanding or similar occurred or c) There was some extenuating circumstance etc. You get the picture. So knowing my brother and his personality, I can know what to believe or not believe about him. That is how it is with God. Can I reconsile the doctrine of the wicked being kept alive or immortal for purposeless suffering, and the God I know and Love? No I can't. God 'is' Love. Not God loves, he 'is' Love. He cannot stop being Love for it is his very essence. I see purpose in everything god does, i do not see purpose in the doctrine of fiery hell. I do not see evidence of god behaving in such a manner anywhere neither.
    Hades. Hades is a temporary prison for the wicked dead.
    So there is another place apart from heaven and hell? No one is in hell yet? Also, the King James and others translates all these words as hell does it not?
    Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Again, I'd like to stay on the nature of God and reconsiling the doctrine of hell to god is love and works with purpose in all things for now. However, a question on this scripture. John speaks symbolically of a 'lake of fire', then goes onto explain that the lake of fire means 'the second death from which there is no resurection'. So he uses symbolism to explain symbolism? When we look at the methods of our King and Messiah Yeshua, he quite plainly spoke when explaining to his diciples the meaning of his various illustrations.


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    #42
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    PDN wrote: »
    I don't see how that is relevant. Satan is not in hell now. .

    Well its relevant when someone believes Satan is in hell now. Kelly1 and RTTH seem to think he is. So it is indeed relevant to discussion with them.


    .

    The wicked went to Hades before hell was created.

    So what is hades? When was hell created?

    Also, what do you feel is the correct translation of Hades/Sheol?

    Also, do you believe in the doctrine of the immortal soul? and in turn the doctrine of a fiery hell? Do you see its purpose? Do you think it just or loving?


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    #43
    ryoishin
    Registered Users Posts: 754 ✭✭✭ryoishin


    Hey Guys,

    To OP,

    The concept of Hell is a place where you are without God by your own choosing. Its very difficult to word it but sure we ll cross those issues when they come up. When talking about hell it is symbolic language to say burning etc as Jesus said that hell is like the place where the branches of (cant remember the name) a certain tree are burnt. Simply that is all you can say and anything else is just to illustrate a point. Modern theologians reckon its more akin to an emotional/mental state.

    God is love in the sense that He is Trinitarian. A single existing god as opposed to a 3 person God (singular as in one God) would be a lonley God and if you exist in isolation what and how can you love. In Christianity (Im speaking as a Catholic) God is self loving as the 3 persons love each other and at the same time God is love and loving.

    Shoel is the Jewish understanding of the afterlife in the Old Testament. It was nt hell as is the Christian thought. It was a place of rest like you just rested and that was it (jewish faith has had an understanding that it is better to be alive on earth). When Jesus died he decended into hell (which is suposed to mean shoel its just as time moved on then words in use changed) and took all of the people in shoel into heaven nulifying its existance or possibly making it something other than what it was.

    The immortality of the soul has different possible explanations. I could list a few if you want but i think im being too confusing.


    Ah heck no of this sounds like what i was trying to say, sorry for the bad spelling.


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    #44
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Well its relevant when someone believes Satan is in hell now. Kelly1 and RTTH seem to think he is. So it is indeed relevant to discussion with them.
    I never once said that Satan is in Hell now infact If you read my posts I have always stated that Satan is alive and well on planet Earth- I have also mentioned that he operates through the television, Holywood, rock/pop music, advertising, the world Governments, the churches, Religion, the Internet and any other medium he wants to use to turn mankind away from God and poison the world with his lies and deception.

    Satan, a free being, he abused his free will, and led a revolt against God. As a result, he lost his special place in heaven. The texts say, too, that Satan has come down to earth, and we saw how he deceived our first parents Adam, got a foothold here, and as been waging war against us ever since. As Scripture says, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" 1Peter 5:8.

    We have more reference to Satan being here on Earth when we read the book of Job, "And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it". Job 1vs7


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    #45
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I never once said that Satan is in Hell now infact If you read my posts I have always stated that Satan is alive and well on planet Earth
    You also said that you believed that Hell was in the centre of the earth, so it doesn't contradict. However, apologies if I mis-represented you. So you don't believe he is in hell yet? You believe he wanders the earth?


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    #46
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    JimiTime wrote: »
    You also said that you believed that Hell was in the centre of the earth, so it doesn't contradict. However, apologies if I mis-represented you. So you don't believe he is in hell yet? You believe he wanders the earth?
    Yes, I believe he wanders the earth.

    Blessed Michael the Archangel, defend us in the hour of battle.
    Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
    And may God rebuke him we humbly pray and do thou O prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God
    Thrust Satan into Hell and with him all evil spirits who wander through the world
    seeking the ruin of souls.

    Amen.


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    #47
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    JimiTime wrote: »
    You also said that you believed that Hell was in the centre of the earth, so it doesn't contradict. However, apologies if I mis-represented you. So you don't believe he is in hell yet? You believe he wanders the earth?
    Scripture gives all the descriptions to a place in the center of the earth, Fire, brimstone, (sulphur), extreme heat, unquenchible fire, such a place exists at present. I do not believe that anyone from this current church age has been condemed to hell yet as the great day of Judgement has het to come. I believe he wanderes the earth with all his associates. (He is not omnipresant like the lord) http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Hells_Truth/hells_truth1.htm


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    #48
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Scripture gives all the descriptions to a place in the center of the earth, Fire, brimstone, (sulphur), extreme heat, unquenchible fire, such a place exists at present.

    So you believe all the wicked will be sent to the centre of the earth, where you believe hell is based on the fact that it sounds like the description of hell? So the spirit bodies will be affected by the physical fire?
    I do not believe that anyone from this current church age has been condemed to hell yet as the great day of Judgement has het to come.
    So where are they now?


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    #49
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Yes, I believe he wanders the earth.

    .

    So he's not in hell yet?


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    #50
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    JimiTime wrote: »
    So you believe all the wicked will be sent to the centre of the earth, where you believe hell is based on the fact that it sounds like the description of hell? So the spirit bodies will be affected by the physical fire?

    So where are they now?
    They are still in their Graves awaiting the call, "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Remember that Gods concept of time is completly different to ours.

    "But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" This is simply saying that time is not an issue to God.


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    #51
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    JimiTime wrote: »
    So he's not in hell yet?
    I dont not believe so.


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    #52
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    They are still in their Graves awaiting the call,

    So we are not immortal?


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    #53
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    JimiTime wrote: »
    So we are not immortal?
    The soul of man is man. Man is mortal. The "soul" is mortal and subject to death.

    "Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4 KJV)

    "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:20 KJV)

    "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [see Where Is Hell?], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27 KJV)

    "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death" (James 5:20 KJV)


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    #54
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Guys, the death of the soul referred to in scripture is mortal sin. It kills sanctifying grace in our souls. If the soul were truly dead, as in annihilated, it couldn't possibly suffer eternal punishment.

    Mt 25:46. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.


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    #55
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    JimiTime said:
    Again, there is two questions I would ask in relation to this. a) Where do you get the doctrine of us all being immortal?
    Two states for mankind for eternity:
    Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
    Some to everlasting life,
    Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    The state of the righteous:
    Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

    The state of the wicked:
    Revelation 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
    and b) In relation to the magnitude of the offence. Jesus paid the debt for mankind. So are you saying that those who don't accept Christ have not had their debt paid?
    Correct. Christ laid down His life for His sheep. But even if we accept that in some sense He paid for the goats also, it is evident that if they do not believe they will bear the punishment due for their sins themselves:
    John 8:23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
    and in turn have no way of ever paying that debt?
    Correct - rather, no way of ever paying off that debt.
    This brings up the question again, that the doctrine of a fiery hell has no purpose but to see people suffer for no purpose does it not?
    Punishment of the wicked for their sin is hardly of no worthy purpose. Not to punish them would be to condone sin. We naturally recoil from the concept of eternal punishment, because we take too light a view of sin. It is obviously much more serious in God's sight than it is in man's - even in the sight of the godliest man. Now and then we get a glimpse of the awfulness of sin, but mostly we ought to believe it is so terrible because God tells us so.

    Quote:

    The reason Christians believe in conscious eternal punishment is not that we see clearly the reason for it, rather that we clearly see it taught by God in His word.

    Ok, so are you saying that it seems harsh to you? In your current understanding do you see it as just?
    See immediately above.
    Quote:

    Likewise, we do not see clearly the reason why God should save any sinners, but we clearly see it taught in His word.

    Personally, I see a reason. God 'is' Love. Its a purpose. 'Why did he bother giving his Son for us?'. Simple, because he Loves us so.
    Yes, I agree, but why should He love us, evil people that we are?
    personally, i believe if you have a living faith and a true honesty of heart, no question is sinful, no matter how 'obvious' the answer seems to be.
    I've no problem with questioning to better understand - but questioning God's wisdom or goodness is totally different. If one understands what the Scripture says, but is unhappy with it and demands an explanation of God - that is sin.
    Also, I picked up on this "it is sinful to question what the scriptures make clear to 'you'". Context is one thing for understanding scriptures, but tbh, what the scriptures best contribution is for me, is that it tells us who God is. For instance, If someone said to me that my brother stole a car. I'd be 100% certain that he either a)didn't b)some misunderstanding or similar occurred or c) There was some extenuating circumstance etc. You get the picture. So knowing my brother and his personality, I can know what to believe or not believe about him. That is how it is with God.
    Yes, a good general guide.
    Can I reconsile the doctrine of the wicked being kept alive or immortal for purposeless suffering, and the God I know and Love?
    It would be purposeless if undeserved - but it is deserved.
    No I can't. God 'is' Love. Not God loves, he 'is' Love. He cannot stop being Love for it is his very essence. I see purpose in everything god does, i do not see purpose in the doctrine of fiery hell. I do not see evidence of god behaving in such a manner anywhere neither.
    God is also holy. We cannot diminish one attribute at the expense of another. And when we come to the Scripture, it defines what is meant by God's love. It does not include not punishing evil. You agree with that, I think - just have difficulty with the punishment being eternal. So it comes down to this:
    1. Do you have a sufficiently grave view of sin?:
    2. Can you account for the Bible passages that appear to teach the unending punishment of the wicked?

    As a historical note, the refusal to accept that God could punish eternally because of His love has led some to the concept of Universalism. This follows the logic of the Love is all principle, in that if God is so loving not to punish with eternal wrath, then He will also not be able to punish and annihilate the wicked, but will punish and rehabilitate them. All of mankind is to end up in heaven - the devil and his demons possibly also. That's the danger of just following general principles, and not allowing specific precepts to inform our understanding of them.
    Quote:
    Hades. Hades is a temporary prison for the wicked dead.

    So there is another place apart from heaven and hell? No one is in hell yet? Also, the King James and others translates all these words as hell does it not?
    It is unfortunate that some of the English translations give hell for different Hebrew and Greek words, especially where those terms mean different places. The wicked dead are in Hades. They will be in Gehenna.
    Again, I'd like to stay on the nature of God and reconsiling the doctrine of hell to god is love and works with purpose in all things for now. However, a question on this scripture. John speaks symbolically of a 'lake of fire', then goes onto explain that the lake of fire means 'the second death from which there is no resurection'. So he uses symbolism to explain symbolism?
    The second death is not a symbol. It is a state, just like the first death is a state.


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    #56
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Wolfsbane said, In relation to where the doctrine of the immortal soul comes from.
    Two states for mankind for eternity:
    Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
    Some to everlasting life,
    Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    The state of the righteous:
    Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

    The state of the wicked:
    Revelation 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

    This in no way indicates immortality. Everlasting life is not immortality.

    Correct - rather, no way of ever paying off that debt.

    So the purpose of hell is to inflict suffering forever. Its a punishment for the sake of punishment. Its purpose is to inflict pain. No chastisement or discipline, just inflict endless pain. No lessons to be learnt etc, just endless pain.
    Punishment of the wicked for their sin is hardly of no worthy purpose. Not to punish them would be to condone sin. We naturally recoil from the concept of eternal punishment, because we take too light a view of sin. It is obviously much more serious in God's sight than it is in man's - even in the sight of the godliest man. Now and then we get a glimpse of the awfulness of sin, but mostly we ought to believe it is so terrible because God tells us so
    .

    In fairness, I never said punishment was a problem. Punishment is absolutely necessary, and is Loving and purposeful. However, giving the wicked 'everlasting life' just so that they can suffer forever, well thats a different kettle of fish now isn't it. Whether we view sin in a certain way or not, there is no sign of a purpose to the doctrine of fiery hell. Saying that God views Sin with so much more contempt etc, is fair enough, but it still doesn't give the doctrine of hell any purpose.


    why should He love us, evil people that we are?

    Its not about should, its about does. It doesn't matter that we don't deserve it, the fact is he does. Love is about want, not duty.
    I've no problem with questioning to better understand - but questioning God's wisdom or goodness is totally different. If one understands what the Scripture says, but is unhappy with it and demands an explanation of God - that is sin.
    Fair enough. if I indeed conclude that something is true of God, then proceed to shoot it down, you could say I'm out of line. Thats completely different to questioning translations and interpretations and origins etc.
    It would be purposeless if undeserved - but it is deserved.

    So you think it is Just, and deserved that a wicked man, who can never pay off his debt of sin, will be tortured endlessly for eternity? Again, for what purpose is such a thing happening for? other than to inflict endless pain?

    God is also holy. We cannot diminish one attribute at the expense of another. And when we come to the Scripture, it defines what is meant by God's love. It does not include not punishing evil. You agree with that, I think - just have difficulty with the punishment being eternal.
    100%. Of course, it would be silly to say the wicked will not get what is due to them. Also, its not even the eternal suffering, its the lack of purpose of it.
    So it comes down to this:
    1. Do you have a sufficiently grave view of sin?:
    Again, I don't really think its relevant. If I saw purpose, i'd see why this punishment is there. However, its only purpose is pain and suffering. It has no end product. Its of no use to God, unless the pain and suffering of the wicked is the end result?

    2. Can you account for the Bible passages that appear to teach the unending punishment of the wicked?

    yes i can. would It satisfy someone who is firm in their religion and its dogma, probably not. For me, religion is the worst thing that ever happened to Christs Gospel.
    As a historical note, the refusal to accept that God could punish eternally because of His love has led some to the concept of Universalism. This follows the logic of the Love is all principle, in that if God is so loving not to punish with eternal wrath, then He will also not be able to punish and annihilate the wicked, but will punish and rehabilitate them. All of mankind is to end up in heaven - the devil and his demons possibly also. That's the danger of just following general principles, and not allowing specific precepts to inform our understanding of them.

    Absolutely, we have to be careful not to go off on one ourselves and let our own treacherous hearts get carried away. We must remain vigilant, and be like the Bereans, always being on our guard against falsehoods.
    It is unfortunate that some of the English translations give hell for different Hebrew and Greek words, especially where those terms mean different places.

    That would prompt me to ask. Why were they translated so in the first place?
    The wicked dead are in Hades.

    Alive? As they are immortal according to your doctrine are they not?
    They will be in Gehenna.

    The place the Jews burnt their waste, and the place that was a place of shame because of the human sacrifices to the fasle god Molech? Where the fire was kept burning etc. The symbol of destruction?

    The second death is not a symbol. It is a state, just like the first death is a state.

    So what is the first state of death like?


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    #57
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    JimiTime wrote: »
    That would prompt me to ask. Why were they translated so in the first place?
    Because the translators of the KJV were pushing a theological agenda that was designed to reinforce a particular brand of Christianity (Anglicanism) and they were limited by the reduced state of knowledge of ancient Hebrew language and culture that existed 400 years ago.


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    #58
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    PDN wrote: »
    Because the translators of the KJV were pushing a theological agenda that was designed to reinforce a particular brand of Christianity (Anglicanism) and they were limited by the reduced state of knowledge of ancient Hebrew language and culture that existed 400 years ago.

    So where did the word 'hell' actually come from then? And what was this brand reinforcing by mistranslating?


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    #59
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    PDN wrote: »
    Because the translators of the KJV were pushing a theological agenda that was designed to reinforce a particular brand of Christianity (Anglicanism) and they were limited by the reduced state of knowledge of ancient Hebrew language and culture that existed 400 years ago.
    The NIV removes and perverts the place of hell!

    The word "hell" occurs 31 times in the Old Testament in the King James Bible. In the Old Testament of the NIV it occurs ZERO! The word "hell" is NOT in the Old Testament of the NIV! Hundreds of words, phrases, and even entire Bible verses were removed from the Word of God by the NIV butchers.


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    #60
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    The NIV removes and perverts the place of hell!

    The word "hell" occurs 31 times in the Old Testament in the King James Bible. In the Old Testament of the NIV it occurs ZERO! The word "hell" is NOT in the Old Testament of the NIV! Hundreds of words, phrases, and even entire Bible verses were removed from the Word of God by the NIV butchers.


    The point is RTTH, the word 'hell' is 'not' in the bible. There are a few words which are mistranslated hell in some bibles, those being, Hades, Sheol, Tartarus and Gahenna. The whole problem that we are referring to is that the word 'hell' is not anywhere to be found in the original manuscripts. Lets not have this go down a 'this bible is better than that' road. If you would like to look this up, i'm sure you'd see sufficient information on this subject.


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    #61
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    JimiTime wrote: »
    The point is RTTH, the word 'hell' is 'not' in the bible. There are a few words which are mistranslated hell in some bibles, those being, Hades, Sheol, Tartarus and Gahenna. The whole problem that we are referring to is that the word 'hell' is not anywhere to be found in the original manuscripts. Lets not have this go down a 'this bible is better than that' road. If you would like to look this up, i'm sure you'd see sufficient information on this subject.
    Hades, Sheol, Tartarus ,Hell, Purgatory and Gahenna or what ever you want to call them all boils down to one thing and that is eternal separation from the Living God.


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