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Donegal priest claims yoga is "putting souls in jeopardy"

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    #62
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    swampgas wrote: »
    Surely for something to something to be a religious or spiritual activity, the person doing that activity has to intend for it to be religious/spiritual?

    I get what you're saying, Yoga was originally part of a spiritual activity, but that doesn't mean the activity itself cannot be carried out in a non-spiritual way.

    After all, when I'm kneeling on the ground digging my potatoes out of the ground I'm not praying.

    Being unaware or ignorant of the true purpose and potential doesn't always mean you are immune from the effect. People go to Mass and think it is nothing more than a chore but that doesn't diminish the spiritual aspect of it. People have messed around with Ouija boards, thinking it was just a bit of craic and come away with more than they bargained for.
    Some martial arts are essentially a form of meditation too and I often wondered why the Church didn't denounce these but Yoga is specifically and systematically designed to open your own spirit to the influence of these 'guiding' spirits or whatever they are. I haven't attended a Yoga class, so I don't know if they open with the 'namaste' greeting/prayer and if the classes have a ritualised formula and process in line with the spiritual practice of Yoga.
    Again, this caveat is for Christians.


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    #63
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Again, this caveat is for Christians.

    Of the ~90% of the population that self declare as Christian in the national census, I imagine very few would meet your criteria on the requirements of being a Christian.

    As for martial arts with a meditative aspect, the one that springs to mind is tai chi chuan, which has been shown through many studies to be of particular benefit to the elderly. As such it is currently being recommended by many doctors as a low impact exercise that improves balance, takes all the joints through their normal range of motion, and hence reduces risk of breaks and effects of certain forms of arthritis. Suggesting for example that old people shouldn't practice tai chi because it puts their souls at risk is about as clever as refusing essential medication on religious grounds.

    Interesting to note that the worlds fastest growing Christian population is China, where many people are concurrently Christian and Buddhist while also practising tai chi which has a Taoist background.

    While it's all claptrap from where I'm sitting, the Donegal priest's variety seems to be a particularly retrograde dogma bordering on fundamentalism.


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    #64
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    smacl wrote: »
    If you look at any main stream dictionaries you'll notice that they include more than one definition for yoga, e.g. from Merriam-Webster




    The reason for two definitions is due to the fact that most yoga classes in the west make no references nor involve any Hindu theology whatsoever. Nor are most yoga instructors practising Hindus or even versed in Hindu theology. I would humbly suggest that you would get more exposure to Hinduism in your local Indian restaurant than in your typical Irish yoga class.



    Because I'm a pedantic atheist who doesn't like seeing the religious types mis-labelling things to suit their own dogmatic agenda. In an Ireland that is getting fatter and unhealthier year on year, I also think that any form of healthy physical exercise should be actively encouraged.



    No, but like most CC priests, our collared friend in Donegal knows better than to take a dig at the many pagan practises that so conveniently fall on religious holidays because he knows damn well his parishioners would tell him to feck off.

    The number 2 definition takes precedence over the number 1 definition? Have you attended "most Yoga classes in the West"? If not, how can such a pedant as yourself make such a claim? (MW also defines pedantic as being dull and unimaginative)
    Again, Christian days of celebration were moved to the times of the major pagan festivals. There was nothing convenient in it.
    Re: Tai Chi. You do know that Tai Chi is credited with being the 'creation' of a Jap who either was a Franciscan monk, or studied at a Franciscan College in Chicago (where he received his doctorate). This man went on a retreat atop a Mountain, in order to 'find' the power that enabled Jesus to perform miracles and encountered spirits who gave him the basis for tai chi. His biographer - an old Jap woman - wrote this in one of her books.


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    #65
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    The number 2 definition takes precedence over the number 1 definition?

    If a word is given multiple meanings in a dictionary, it is because all meanings are equally valid unless the text says differently.
    Have you attended "most Yoga classes in the West"?

    Attended a few, hatha yoga regularly for a few years when I was younger to help me get over asthma, which worked quite well. More into taiji / qigong and Chinese martial arts in later life, though still have a number of friends who teach and practise various forms of yoga and nip along occasionally.
    Re: Tai Chi. You do know that Tai Chi is credited with being the 'creation' of a Jap who either was a Franciscan monk, or studied at a Franciscan College in Chicago (where he received his doctorate). This man went on a retreat atop a Mountain, in order to 'find' the power that enabled Jesus to perform miracles and encountered spirits who gave him the basis for tai chi. His biographer - an old Jap woman - wrote this in one of her books.

    There you go. In my 20+ years training tai chi chuan, meeting many leading practitioners while participating in international events, and owning and having read a veritable library on traditional Chinese martial arts, I have never heard that some 'old Jap woman' reckoned that some 'Jap' monk invented it. Who'd've thunk it. :rolleyes:

    You may also want to avoid visiting certain parts of the Orient if you're going to refer to the Japanese as 'Japs'.


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    #66
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    My apologies: I crossed Reiki with Tai Chi.

    The Chinese dislike the Japs, so I'm sure many of them would have no issue with me calling them such. Is Yank as derogatory to Americans?


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    #67
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    My apologies: I crossed Reiki with Tai Chi.

    No worries, reiki is up there with homoeopathy in my book in terms of woo factor and proven benefits, e.g. alternate forms of faith healing.
    The Chinese dislike the Japs, so I'm sure many of them would have no issue with me calling them such. Is Yank as derogatory to Americans?

    I tend to avoid racial stereotyping either way, though I think most Americans are pretty blasé when it comes to being referred to as yanks.


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    #68
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,535 ✭✭✭swampgas


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Being unaware or ignorant of the true purpose and potential doesn't always mean you are immune from the effect. People go to Mass and think it is nothing more than a chore but that doesn't diminish the spiritual aspect of it.
    I don't believe that anything supernatural exists at all (except in people's imaginations) so as far as I'm concerned there is no risk of contamination with alien woo. But surely Christians should be convinced that the spiritual nature of Yoga is irrelevant - after all, there is only one God, their own God, and all that Yoga spirituality must be a load of superstition?

    I'm amused that a Catholic priest is actually giving credence to the idea that there exist alternative spiritual forces in the world, after all, surely God must have created them too?
    People have messed around with Ouija boards, thinking it was just a bit of craic and come away with more than they bargained for.

    Really? I've used ouija boards and it was always obvious that somebody was pushing the glass around in order to get a few scares out of people. You know it was originally a parlor game? Do you actually believe in demonic possession then?
    Some martial arts are essentially a form of meditation too and I often wondered why the Church didn't denounce these but Yoga is specifically and systematically designed to open your own spirit to the influence of these 'guiding' spirits or whatever they are. I haven't attended a Yoga class, so I don't know if they open with the 'namaste' greeting/prayer and if the classes have a ritualised formula and process in line with the spiritual practice of Yoga. Again, this caveat is for Christians.

    The church has lost most of its power to tell people what to think. And most people (Irish cultural catholics anyway) hardly believe in God, or Satan, so they're probably not too bothered by a bit of Eastern woo either.


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    #69
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    smacl wrote: »
    I tend to avoid racial stereotyping either way, though I think most Americans are pretty blasé when it comes to being referred to as yanks.

    It depends, for example, you should never call a southern, ahem, gentleman of certain pallour a yank. The term yankee was for a long time a derogatory term used by southern Americans (as in the southern of the original 13 states) to describe New Englanders.


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    #70
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    People have messed around with Ouija boards, thinking it was just a bit of craic and come away with more than they bargained for.

    They've gotten wood splinters? That's pretty scary!


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    #71
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    People have messed around with Ouija boards, thinking it was just a bit of craic and come away with more than they bargained for.

    Wha..hahaa...t? What did they come away with then?! *



    *Bearing in mind most people here are ATHEISTS....or did you think our lack of belief in any supernatural power only applies to christianity?


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    #72
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    swampgas wrote: »
    I don't believe that anything supernatural exists at all (except in people's imaginations) so as far as I'm concerned there is no risk of contamination with alien woo. But surely Christians should be convinced that the spiritual nature of Yoga is irrelevant - after all, there is only one God, their own God, and all that Yoga spirituality must be a load of superstition?

    I'm amused that a Catholic priest is actually giving credence to the idea that there exist alternative spiritual forces in the world, after all, surely God must have created them too?



    Really? I've used ouija boards and it was always obvious that somebody was pushing the glass around in order to get a few scares out of people. You know it was originally a parlor game? Do you actually believe in demonic possession then?



    The church has lost most of its power to tell people what to think. And most people (Irish cultural catholics anyway) hardly believe in God, or Satan, so they're probably not too bothered by a bit of Eastern woo either.

    I'm aware that you, and other posters in A.A., don't believe in the Spiritual (and yet you guys seem preoccupied with religions and religious people?) but does somethings existence depend on your belief?

    Christianity (and Judaism) are explicit that there are many spiritual 'forces' but not all of them are benign.

    Yes, I believe in demonic possession.


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    #73
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    I'm aware that you, and other posters in A.A., don't believe in the Spiritual (and yet you guys seem preoccupied with religions and religious people?) but does somethings existence depend on your belief?

    Oh dear. No, not in my case. My belief depends on something's existence.

    How about the answer to my question there above? What did people get that was more than they bargained for when playing with a ouija board?

    Oh...wait. Missed the bit where you believe in demonic possession. Never mind my question so.


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    #74
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Obliq wrote: »
    Wha..hahaa...t? What did they come away with then?! *



    *Bearing in mind most people here are ATHEISTS....or did you think our lack of belief in any supernatural power only applies to christianity?

    Their experiences are freely available for you to read, listen to, download etc.

    I know people here are mostly atheist/agnostic but I gave information to the OP on why the priest denounced Reiki, Tai Chi and Yoga.


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    #75
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,535 ✭✭✭swampgas


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    I'm aware that you, and other posters in A.A., don't believe in the Spiritual (and yet you guys seem preoccupied with religions and religious people?) ...
    I'm fascinated that people have religious beliefs in our modern era. I'm frustrated that so much of our society is still influenced by hokey 2000 year religions, for example education and medicine is (IMO) unduly influenced by a religion run out of another country.
    ... but does somethings existence depend on your belief?

    On the other hand, believing in something doesn't make it real either. Where there is evidence, I will believe.
    Christianity (and Judaism) are explicit that there are many spiritual 'forces' but not all of them are benign.

    Yes, I believe in demonic possession.

    Demonic possession looks an awful lot like mental illness to modern eyes. Demons and angels ... it's pre-enlightenment stuff.


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    #76
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Their experiences are freely available for you to read, listen to, download etc.

    Paper never refused ink, as they say. Do you believe everything people tell you just because they swear it's true?
    I know people here are mostly atheist/agnostic but I gave information to the OP on why the priest denounced Reiki, Tai Chi and Yoga.

    And we're completely free to think it's hilariously wrong-footed and contradictory to that whole "one true god" angle they're always banging on about. Fierce funny actually :cool:


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    #77
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    swampgas wrote: »
    I'm fascinated that people have religious beliefs in our modern era. I'm frustrated that so much of our society is still influenced by hokey 2000 year religions, for example education and medicine is (IMO) unduly influenced by a religion run out of another country.



    On the other hand, believing in something doesn't make it real either. Where there is evidence, I will believe.



    Demonic possession looks an awful lot like mental illness to modern eyes. Demons and angels ... it's pre-enlightenment stuff.

    The vast majority of people who think they're possessed are actually suffering from a mental illness. There is the 1 in 100 who has a genuine possession and not all are unwelcome possessions (the person has sought to be possessed).


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    #78
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Obliq wrote: »
    Paper never refused ink, as they say. Do you believe everything people tell you just because they swear it's true?



    And we're completely free to think it's hilariously wrong-footed and contradictory to that whole "one true god" angle they're always banging on about. Fierce funny actually :cool:

    As the Yellow Pages jingle went "Let your fingers do the walking".

    No, of course I don't blindly accept everything someone tells me. Stop being ridiculous.


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    #79
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,535 ✭✭✭swampgas


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    The vast majority of people who think they're possessed are actually suffering from a mental illness. There is the 1 in 100 who has a genuine possession and not all are unwelcome possessions (the person has sought to be possessed).

    I'd be more inclined to think that 100 in 100 are mentally ill. I'd imagine that demonic possession is in the eye of the beholder, and not scientifically demonstrable.


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    #80
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    The vast majority of people who think they're possessed are actually suffering from a mental illness. There is the 1 in 100 who has a genuine possession and not all are unwelcome possessions (the person has sought to be possessed).

    Can I ask you to provide medical evidence (peer reviewed preferably) for this "genuine possession"? Also the statistical analysis for the 1 in 100 that are "proven" to be genuine? Otherwise.....how are we meant to believe you?!


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    #81
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    No, of course I don't blindly accept everything someone tells me. Stop being ridiculous.

    Gosh. :confused: That's....nice.


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    #82
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Donegal priest claims yoga is "beginning to putting the churchs income in jeopardy"

    would be a bit closer to the truth

    if going to yoga somehow made you donate as much as possible to the church, it'd be their new best friend


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    #83
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    swampgas wrote: »
    I'd be more inclined to think that 100 in 100 are mentally ill. I'd imagine that demonic possession is in the eye of the beholder, and not scientifically demonstrable.

    I'm not exactly concerned with what the posters here think about this and other religious subjects. I'm not writing that to offend or inflame anyone but I know atheists don't believe it and I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise. I was asked a question and I answered.
    Psychiatry is always used first when dealing with a legitimate Exorcist. He/she will refer the person to medical Institutions for examination. The Doctors may conclude that they cannot find, treat or cure the cause of what malady is manifesting itself. Exorcists have written many books detailing their Ministry, if you want to learn more I suggest you read one.


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    #84
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Obliq wrote: »
    Can I ask you to provide medical evidence (peer reviewed preferably) for this "genuine possession"? Also the statistical analysis for the 1 in 100 that are "proven" to be genuine? Otherwise.....how are we meant to believe you?!

    I am not a medical Doctor and do not have access to people's medical records. Even if I did have such access, I don't think I would be allowed to share that information with non-professionals who have no connection. Is it against board Rules to ask you if you are a medical practitioner or someone who even knows how to interpret data correctly?


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    #85
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Obliq wrote: »
    Gosh. :confused: That's....nice.

    You asked. I answered. Does that really confuse you? Weren't you the one seeking statistical data for analysis...


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    #86
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    I'm not exactly concerned with what the posters here think about this and other religious subjects.

    That's what I am finding interesting about your posts, tbh. You're clearly a believer in the supernatural - so much so that you seem to subscribe to what this priest has said about yoga putting souls in jeopardy. Ditto with the ouija board conjuring up spirits and people becoming possessed by demons.

    So why are you here making claims that you don't back up, if you're so unconcerned about what posters here think about this?


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    #87
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    You asked. I answered. Does that really confuse you? Weren't you the one seeking statistical data for analysis...

    Yes, yes I was that one. Have you got any (edit: To show that 1 in 100 "possessions" are genuine)?
    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Stop being ridiculous.

    My confusion relates to why you were rude in your reply.


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    #88
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    I am not a medical Doctor and do not have access to people's medical records. Even if I did have such access, I don't think I would be allowed to share that information with non-professionals who have no connection. Is it against board Rules to ask you if you are a medical practitioner or someone who even knows how to interpret data correctly?

    Surely there must be some proof for your claims? Anything at all? No?

    I shall ask again:
    Obliq wrote: »
    how are we meant to believe you?!


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    #89
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    I held this belief before the article was posted.

    I am answering questions; not trying to convert or befriend the users here. I answered the OP and am answering those who put questions to me.
    You accuse me of being rude? I apologise for offending your sensitivity. I considered it ridiculous and immature to be accused of being so gullible that I believe everything I'm told. No need to apologise for your rudeness.

    I'm sure there is proof but you haven't answered if you are qualified to interpret and analyse it.


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    #90
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    I held this belief before the article was posted.
    ..............................

    ..............I'm sure there is proof but you haven't answered if you are qualified to interpret and analyse it.

    You: Their experiences are freely available for you to read, listen to, download etc.
    Me: Do you believe everything people tell you because they swear it's true?

    I do apologise if I was at all rude here, but I genuinely can't understand how you come to believe this stuff without proof. In what I've quoted of your last post, it seems to me that you are sure there is proof but you haven't got any, and yet you're prepared to believe it. Which is fine, of course, but totally opposite to what I base my understanding of the world on.

    As for being qualified to interpret this non-existent proof, no. I wouldn't be. That's why I like peer-reviewed scientific evidence because it means that other people who ARE qualified have examined it and have published their analysis of the findings. That way, the likes of me can get a better idea of whether something is PROVEN. Or not.


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    #91
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    I'm aware that you, and other posters in A.A., don't believe in the Spiritual (and yet you guys seem preoccupied with religions and religious people?) but does somethings existence depend on your belief?

    No. A things existence depends on its existence, nothing else (yes that sounds something stupidly zen like, but existence has nothing to do with belief, but reality). But for a human to consider something to have existence then there must be evidence for the existence of that thing.

    Otherwise we could say that all sorts of stupid things exist, like celestial teapots orbiting the sun between Mars and Jupiter, or invisible pink unicorns or, my personal favourite, the glingleglingleglingle fairy. Actually to illustrate just how stupid the comment you just made is I would suggest you read Terry Pratchett's Hogfather. And then I'd go off and read the rest of his series, and you may then begin to see the road to wisdom (hint: It doesn't include believing in pretend beings).


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