Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Census 2016

2

Comments

  • #52
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,513 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    On the other hand, we have no substantial reason to think that they did interpret the question that way. You seem to be just hypothesising reasons to invalidate and ignor a finding that you don't like. And you don't like it because it tends to validate another finding that you don't like. This is unimpressive, Hotblack.

    In the real world, per the census most Irish residents identify as religious, and per the patronage consultation most parents do in fact want religious patronage in their children's schools, and it is likely that these two facts are connected. A strategy for defending the rights of those who don't want religious patronage is undermined if it ignores the realities.

    For example , following the consultation, the Department moved actually to transfer schools from Catholic to non-Catholic patronage. In some of the schools concerned, there was blowback from those parents who were happy with the current patronage. In thread on this board, a good deal of disgust and irritation at this was expressed, together with claims (not backed by any colourable detail) that this was being orchestrated by the bishops, fomented in homilies in parish churches, etc.

    In fact, if you take the results of the consultation seriously where they are unwelcome as well as where they are welcome, the findings would suggest that a majority of parents in most religious-patronage schools were likely to favour religious patronage. Given that, blowback was entirely to be expected. The rational course would be to expect blowback, and to prepare a strategy for responding to it and managing it. As it was, people simply took refuge in conspiracy theories rather than acknowledge the possibility that the research showing the facts to be otherwise than they wished they were might, actually, be correct, and should have been attended to.

    As I say, unimpressive.


    You are ignoring the arguments raised, inertia and fear of change are reasons why parents would support the status quo but that doesn't mean that if they were starting over and had a free choice of schools which were established and known quantities that they would still choose the RC one. Some would. Some would not.

    Note that future parents (no kids yet) were not asked, given that any process of change is going to take years it'll affect them (and pre-schoolers, who were asked) more than it will people who already have kids in the system, who will be out or nearly out of it before much change at primary level could possibly happen. That is why I mentioned the large increase in non-religious marriage, it's an indicator that there will be many more families in the future who do not regard religion as important, or who wish to avoid it.

    I also mentioned that my area was not surveyed, along with many others, so there is no prospect of the unmet demand for change here being satisfied. The CoI school was less than half full a few years ago, it now has a waiting list and our second child is only getting in on the sibling rule. This demand is NOT coming from CoI parents, but parents unhappy that all the other options are both single-sex and Catholic (or gaelscoil.)

    If one school in an area changes patronage, yes not all the existing parents there will be happy, but there will be parents of kids in the other catholic schools who would be happy to take places in the school which is changing, that then frees up 'catholic places for catholic kids' in those schools. A bit of disruption in the short term but in the longer term more people are happy and there is then a real choice.

    This is entirely workable in areas with several schools, but even there it's just not happening.

    Be careful when using words like 'unimpressive' rather than arguments, that you are not sailing close to the rocky shores of ad hominem.

    Why are you rasing conspiracy theories which nobody has mentioned on this thread, it's a handy strawman to knock down I suppose rather than address the actual points posters are making.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #53
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    There was no survey in my area of school preferences and even if there had been we wouldn't have been included. I have correspondence from the dept stating that it's priority is access to a school place not that a parent and child should be allowed to avail of a particular school with a particular ethos. There's no way a new school will be built here and while on paper it looks like we're well served in reality the Gael scoil is extremely Catholic, one primary is not close enough to be practical, and the others are all denominational schools while the one et is over subscribed although given our enrolment place we should.secure places while not entirely comfortable with the learn together programme. There's no chance of any school changing in this area.


  • #54
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,513 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    I also mentioned that my area was not surveyed, along with many others, so there is no prospect of the unmet demand for change here being satisfied. The CoI school was less than half full a few years ago, it now has a waiting list and our second child is only getting in on the sibling rule. This demand is NOT coming from CoI parents, but parents unhappy that all the other options are both single-sex and Catholic (or gaelscoil.)

    Just to elaborate on this - if the increased demand were coming from CoI parents (we know from school gate chatter that the congregation is continuing its slow decline of many years) then our second child wouldn't stand a chance of a place, because membership of a CoI congregation (even outside the area) trumps the sibling rule. (1)

    Membership of another reformed church comes next (2)

    Catholics come after that (3)

    Then siblings of existing pupils (4)

    Then non-christians without siblings - right at the bottom of the list. (5)


    Child 1 fell into category 5 but we were lucky the school wasn't full then.
    Child 2 is in category 4, but there wasn't enough demand from 1, 2 and 3 to trump him
    There is demand from category (4) but unless people are suddenly having larger families than before, sibiling demand for places will be the same as usual
    So the big increase in demand is therefore coming from category (5) - unmet demand from non-christian families who don't fancy the chances of the RC schools respecting them and their faith/non-faith choice.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #55
    wench
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭wench


    Time to sharpen your quills, the CSO are taking submissions on changes to the 2021 census
    http://www.cso.ie/en/census/census2021consultation/


  • #56
    ginger_hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭ginger_hammer


    wench wrote: »
    Time to sharpen your quills, the CSO are taking submissions on changes to the 2021 census
    http://www.cso.ie/en/census/census2021consultation/

    Suggestion emailed!


  • #57
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,184 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    offaly is the most catholic county in ireland:
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/it-s-official-offaly-is-the-most-catholic-county-d%C3%BAn-laoghaire-the-least-1.3253668


  • #58
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    So the bottom line is that the overwhelming of the population are religious.


  • #59
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    So the bottom line is that the overwhelming of the population are religious.

    Meant to say 'overwhelming majority'.


  • #60
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,513 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    So the bottom line is that the overwhelming of the population are religious.

    No, the bottom line is that the majority of the population were baptised into one. Anything else is speculation on your part. If you think the population is so religious, why are vocations almost zero, church attendance way down and even church weddings and funerals are dropping rapidly.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Advertisement
  • #61
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    No, the bottom line is that the majority of the population were baptised into one. Anything else is speculation on your part. If you think the population is so religious, why are vocations almost zero, church attendance way down and even church weddings and funerals are dropping rapidly.


    Like I say, the overwhelming majority of people declared in the census that they are of one particular religion or another. No ifs buts or maybes that's what the situation is.


  • #62
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,184 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    So the bottom line is that the overwhelming of the population are religious.
    the bottom line is that the majority of the population identified with a particular religion in the census.

    this does not mean they are 'religious', not in the common usage of the word. my dad would have marked himself as catholic, but he's not a religious man.


  • #63
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the bottom line is that the majority of the population identified with a particular religion in the census.

    this does not mean they are 'religious', not in the common usage of the word. my dad would have marked himself as catholic, but he's not a religious man.


    OK, but your dad marked himself as Catholic so therefore he regards himself as belonging to a religion and is a believer.


  • #64
    ginger_hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭ginger_hammer


    'No Religion' is the fastest growing category, excellent. Also with population age demographics it will only increase in the next census.


  • #65
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Labelling oneself Catholic in Ireland is far more of a badge of ethnicity in most cases than a statement of actual belief.


  • #66
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    OK, but your dad marked himself as Catholic so therefore he regards himself as belonging to a religion and is a believer.

    FYP. After all, you're the one that questioned whether some of the clergy were actually believers. What most Irish Catholics believe we simply don't know as we haven't asked them. We do know that they don't hold Rome as the highest moral authority as the majority voted in favour of same sex marriage against Rome's wishes. A similar effect can be seen with respect to contraception, use of the morning after pill, and for no small few, abortion. So putting down Catholic on the census form is not a reliable indicator of a persons beliefs, merely how they identify themselves.


  • Advertisement
  • #67
    yeppydeppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭yeppydeppy


    Suggestion submitted - I guess they'll at least review it and maybe come up with a question that would give a true statistic for the religious nature of people of Ireland.


  • #68
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    yeppydeppy wrote: »
    Suggestion submitted - I guess they'll at least review it and maybe come up with a question that would give a true statistic for the religious nature of people of Ireland.

    In some ways I think the census, if it is to be used as a decision making tool, should actually be asking more about the population's secular preferences rather than religious identity. The pertinent information is what proportion of the population want the the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals. I imagine a lot of people still do, but that they amount to a far smaller percentage than those that identify as religious. The recent debacle surrounding the new maternity hospital would tend to support this assertion.


  • #69
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    yeppydeppy wrote: »
    Suggestion submitted - I guess they'll at least review it and maybe come up with a question that would give a true statistic for the religious nature of people of Ireland.


    What was your suggestion? not that it matters a whole pile as most suggestions coming from minority groups get kicked to one side .


  • #70
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    offaly is the most catholic county in ireland:
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/it-s-official-offaly-is-the-most-catholic-county-d%C3%BAn-laoghaire-the-least-1.3253668
    But Dun Laoghaire is awfully protestant.


  • #71
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    OK, but your dad marked himself as Catholic so therefore he regards himself as belonging to a religion and is a believer.

    As someone who put down No Religion for the first time, it actually took a bit of work to do it. Residual Catholic guilt was probably part of it, and my law-abiding ways that weren't sure if I -could- put down not-Catholic when I was baptised into that religion (that swung me the time before).

    I would be cautious about ascribing religious belief to someone you know only by the sentence you responded to, which, for a start, specified he was not religious, which generally indicates "not a believer".


  • Advertisement
  • #72
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    But Dun Laoghaire is awfully protestant.

    You need to walk up the hill to the Noggin at bit more often ;)


  • #73
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,513 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    OK, but your dad marked himself as Catholic so therefore he regards himself as belonging to a religion and is a believer.

    Again a huge presumption on your part.

    One does not need to be a believer to be able to tick catholic. I could quite legitimately tick catholic and I've been an atheist all my adult life.

    Anyway you're really not very good at this spin thing :p try talking to an archbishop for some tips!
    smacl wrote: »
    The pertinent information is what proportion of the population want the the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals.

    Hmm so OAPs and people who will never have kids get to influence how our schools for future children are run?

    Scrap the cap!



  • #74
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,184 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    recedite wrote: »
    But Dun Laoghaire is awfully protestant.
    i hope you are not suggesting that 'it is awful, the extent to which dun Laoghaire is protestant'.


  • #75
    snowflaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭snowflaker


    Here's Offaly breakdown. NR is up 80%



    Religion 2016
    Roman Catholic 67849
    No religion 3520
    Other stated religion (nec) 2630
    Church of Ireland (incl. Protestant) 2300
    Not stated 1412
    Methodist, Wesleyan 144
    Presbyterian 97
    Jewish 9


  • #76
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    I could quite legitimately tick catholic and I've been an atheist all my adult life.

    /QUOTE]


    So what? Of course you could. Are you suggesting that those who ticked catholic or any other religion are in fact atheists! :D


  • #77
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,204 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Hmm so OAPs and people who will never have kids get to influence how our schools for future children are run?


    By your own standards -

    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Again a huge presumption on your part.


    The point was the proportion of the population want the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals, and I would suggest that quite a significant proportion of those people have children, and have relations who have children, and they are thinking of their children, and their future generations of children, not yours, in influencing how state funded institutions like schools and hospitals are run.

    smacl wrote: »
    In some ways I think the census, if it is to be used as a decision making tool, should actually be asking more about the population's secular preferences rather than religious identity. The pertinent information is what proportion of the population want the the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals. I imagine a lot of people still do, but that they amount to a far smaller percentage than those that identify as religious. The recent debacle surrounding the new maternity hospital would tend to support this assertion.


    I wouldn't agree that the recent debacle surrounding the new maternity hospital is indicative of a whole lot really. 80,000, hell I'll even be generous and say 100,000 people is not a whole lot in terms of the percentage of the adult population of Ireland who don't particularly appear to care one way or the other about whether or not the church is involved in state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals.


  • #78
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,513 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    By your own standards

    What presumption are you claiming I made, exactly?
    The point was the proportion of the population want the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals, and I would suggest that quite a significant proportion of those people have children, and have relations who have children, and they are thinking of their children, and their future generations of children, not yours, in influencing how state funded institutions like schools and hospitals are run.

    So what. Why should people whose children are grown up, or who have never had any get a say in how our schools are run? There's more of them than there are parents of school-going age children. I couldn't give two shits frankly about what Holy Joe down the road thinks about keeping 'the church' in control of schools, and why should I have to?
    I wouldn't agree that the recent debacle surrounding the new maternity hospital is indicative of a whole lot really. 80,000, hell I'll even be generous and say 100,000 people is not a whole lot in terms of the percentage of the adult population of Ireland who don't particularly appear to care one way or the other about whether or not the church is involved in state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals.

    Right. So if they don't turn up at a particular place on a particular day to voice their discontent, they clearly don't care about the issue at all. Logic.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #79
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,513 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    So what? Of course you could. Are you suggesting that those who ticked catholic or any other religion are in fact atheists! :D

    A survey commissioned by the RCC a couple of years ago suggests that about 10% of self-described 'catholics' don't actually believe in god.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #80
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,204 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    What presumption are you claiming I made, exactly?


    The assumption that the only part of the population who want the church involved in the running of schools must be either OAPs or people who will never have children.

    So what. Why should people whose children are grown up, or who have never had any get a say in how our schools are run? There's more of them than there are parents of school-going age children. I couldn't give two shits frankly about what Holy Joe down the road thinks about keeping 'the church' in control of schools, and why should I have to?


    Because education is provided for by the state, is the obvious answer to that one, the church is providing a service to the state, and for that service they are funded by the state. That means that every citizen over the age of 18, whether they're a parent themselves or not, has a say in influencing how our education system is run. You personally aren't obliged to give two shìts for their opinion, but the Government does.

    Right. So if they don't turn up at a particular place on a particular day to voice their discontent, they clearly don't care about the issue at all. Logic.


    I was referring to the number of people who didn't even have to turn up on a particular day to voice their discontent, they simply signed an online petition, and after checking, the final figure was just over 103,000, still only a small percentage of the adult population of Ireland. That's the number of people who actually went to the bother of actively registering their discontent online. I doubt all of them were parents either or given that it was a maternity hospital, would ever be pregnant themselves, so their opinion should be discounted... and that's using your logic.


  • #81
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    A survey commissioned by the RCC a couple of years ago suggests that about 10% of self-described 'catholics' don't actually believe in god.


    A survey by the same group found that almost 50% of those professing to be atheist did not know the difference between Atheist and Agnostic.


  • Advertisement
  • #82
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The point was the proportion of the population want the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals

    Of course a census asking what religion people identify with does not tell us ANYTHING about whether they want "the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals". THAT would be an assumption without basis.

    Even if 100% of the population marked that they identify as catholic on the census, that does not mean even ONE person wants the church to have said influence.


  • #83
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    It will be amusing some day to hear the reactions of the "we're still the biggest so we get to say how the country is run" when Catholicism eventually drops below 50%.


  • #84
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,184 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Hmm so OAPs and people who will never have kids get to influence how our schools for future children are run?
    as someone who doesn't have kids, and has no plans to, i definitely do have a say in how this country is run, and that includes how the education system is run; i would resent any suggestion that it's none of my business.


  • #85
    server down
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Again a huge presumption on your part.

    One does not need to be a believer to be able to tick catholic. I could quite legitimately tick catholic and I've been an atheist all my adult life.

    Anyway you're really not very good at this spin thing :p try talking to an archbishop for some tips!



    Hmm so OAPs and people who will never have kids get to influence how our schools for future children are run?

    Strange post. If you clicked catholic as an atheist (and apparently a fairly militant one) are you not part of the problem?

    And of course OAPs and people without children get a vote.


  • #86
    server down
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Samaris wrote: »
    It will be amusing some day to hear the reactions of the "we're still the biggest so we get to say how the country is run" when Catholicism eventually drops below 50%.

    As an atheist born into an atheistic family I am happy with the status quo. For two reasons:

    1 - despite the claimed oppression here most of these schools have no religious teachers and as much religious teaching as is mandated by law. Basically they are academic.
    2 - the church losing power or ownership may mean that the local authorities merge schools losing whatever academic ethos was there and creating the comprehensive model. The British model sucks.

    However these schools shouldn’t be able to discriminate on religion or any other reason except locality.


  • #87
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Samaris wrote: »
    It will be amusing some day to hear the reactions of the "we're still the biggest so we get to say how the country is run" when Catholicism eventually drops below 50%.

    Can't wait, roll on 2097!


  • #88
    yeppydeppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭yeppydeppy


    I suggested: Are you religious yes / no
    Do you practice a religion? yes / no
    If yes, please state your religion:_______


  • #89
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Funny to see the usual suspects here, in AH and Twitter, still trying to spin this as "Catholicism is still the biggest! The church in Ireland has never been stronger or more engaged!"

    Or trying to call nonsense on the figures by saying that "80% of a small number is still a small number!"

    The reality is that people are leaving the traditional Christian churches in their droves. This isn't a case of more Muslims or Hindus coming into the country, it's people walking away from Christian churches.

    Full numbers below. The "change" is absolute change in population terms. That is, what percentage of the overall population "converted" to that category in the last five years.

    The figures are unspinnable. Catholicism saw an actual, real decline of 28,000 followers per year over the period. Coincidentally there are about 30,000 deaths in Ireland per year, of which 90% are over 55 :pac:

    It is the largest and fastest drop in Catholicism since census records begin. And it isn't a simple linear drop - the rate of catholiclessness is increasing. If the acceleration of this drop continues, you're looking at around 68% Catholic in the 2021 census, and then being within touching distance of 50% by 2026.

    |2011|%|2016|%|Change %
    No religion|256830|5.68|451941|9.64|3.96
    Not stated|68668|1.52|119349|2.54|1.03
    Orthodox (Greek, Coptic, Russian)|44003|0.97|60777|1.3|0.32
    Muslim (Islamic)|48130|1.06|62032|1.32|0.26
    Lapsed (Roman) Catholic|1268|0.03|8094|0.17|0.14
    Evangelical|3972|0.09|9368|0.2|0.11
    Atheist|3751|0.08|7477|0.16|0.08
    Hindu|10302|0.23|13729|0.29|0.07
    Spiritualist|0|0|2922|0.06|0.06
    Born Again Christian|0|0|2565|0.05|0.05
    Agnostic|3393|0.07|5006|0.11|0.03
    Other stated religion (nec)|17897|0.4|19454|0.41|0.02
    Buddhist|8355|0.18|9358|0.2|0.01
    Pagan, Pantheist|1883|0.04|2645|0.06|0.01
    Baptist|3219|0.07|3642|0.08|0.01
    Jehovah's Witness|6024|0.13|6264|0.13|0
    Protestant|4263|0.09|4269|0.09|0
    Methodist, Wesleyan|6280|0.14|5847|0.12|-0.01
    Lutheran|5048|0.11|4549|0.1|-0.01
    Apostolic or Pentecostal|13876|0.31|13193|0.28|-0.03
    Presbyterian|22835|0.5|22188|0.47|-0.03
    Christian (Not Specified)|39652|0.88|35996|0.77|-0.11
    Church of Ireland, England, Anglican, Episcopalian|124445|2.75|122612|2.61|-0.14
    Roman Catholic|3831187|84.66|3696644|78.82|-5.84


  • #90
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    A survey by the same group found that almost 50% of those professing to be atheist did not know the difference between Atheist and Agnostic.

    The survey Hotblack is talking about was of Catholic parents, so what are you talking about?


  • Advertisement
  • #91
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    server down wrote: »
    As an atheist born into an atheistic family I am happy with the status quo. For two reasons:

    1 - despite the claimed oppression here most of these schools have no religious teachers and as much religious teaching as is mandated by law. Basically they are academic.
    2 - the church losing power or ownership may mean that the local authorities merge schools losing whatever academic ethos was there and creating the comprehensive model. The British model sucks.

    However these schools shouldn’t be able to discriminate on religion or any other reason except locality.

    Also an atheist with atheist parents and two atheist children now in second level education. With respect to the points you raise;

    My opinion is the status quo is rotten as it is discriminatory to the point that it has been commented on by the UN and various human rights groups such as Amnesty. It also discriminates against teachers who are not religious, and leaves many students and teachers alike having to pretend to be religious to get into their only local state funded school.

    Where exactly is religious teaching mandated in law? There is no religion class in ET primary or secondary schools that I'm aware of.

    Removing the running of the schools from the church does not imply adopting the school system in the UK. Having one child in an ET secondary school and the other in a Catholic ethos school, I am firmly of the opinion that the ET school offers a more rounded education and better preparation for the society we live in.


  • #92
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    server down wrote: »
    1 - despite the claimed oppression here most of these schools have no religious teachers and as much religious teaching as is mandated by law. Basically they are academic.

    "Most of these schools have no religious teachers" means some do. "As much religious teaching as is mandated by law" is more than no religious teaching at all. If they are functionally academic then why not just go the full hog and make them completely academic? If it suits the church to have the systems as it is then you can be damn sure they are getting something out of it.
    server down wrote: »
    2 - the church losing power or ownership may mean that the local authorities merge schools losing whatever academic ethos was there and creating the comprehensive model. The British model sucks.

    The ethos of a church run school is a religious one not an academic one, loosing that ethos wont change the academic nature of the school as the academic nature of the school is mandated by the department of education anyway (they set the curriculum).

    Replace church run with Coca-Cola run. Imagine we have a school system where most of teachers don't like really coke and they only teach the minimum amount of coke approved propaganda each day? Is that good enough for you? For anyone?


  • #93
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    The survey Hotblack is talking about was of Catholic parents, so what are you talking about?


    Pretty simple really, that almost 50% of atheists did not know the difference between an atheist and an agnostic! Never mind that the fact that 80% of atheists(that's assuming they know what they are supposed to be!) attend church several times a year for funerals, weddings, christenings etc!


  • #94
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Pretty simple really, that almost 50% of atheists did not know the difference between an atheist and an agnostic! Never mind that the fact that 80% of atheists(that's assuming they know what they are supposed to be!) attend church several times a year for funerals, weddings, christenings etc!

    What survey are you talking about? Hotblacks was specifically of self-proclaimed catholic parents. Do you have a link for the survey you are talking about?


  • #95
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    PNever mind that the fact that 80% of atheists(that's assuming they know what they are supposed to be!) attend church several times a year for funerals, weddings, christenings etc!

    Thanks for ignoring me when I asked this question already today, but to repeat it..... what exactly is the issue (in your mind at least) with atheists attending such ceremonies. Do you even know?


  • #96
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Never mind that the fact that 80% of atheists(that's assuming they know what they are supposed to be!) attend church several times a year for funerals, weddings, christenings etc!

    So about as often as most Catholics these days then? :pac:

    Maybe we should be re-purposing these buildings to house the homeless.


  • Advertisement
  • #97
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Thanks for ignoring me when I asked this question already today, but to repeat it..... what exactly is the issue (in your mind at least) with atheists attending such ceremonies. Do you even know?


    Been through all that with you before nozzie but as usual you pretended not to grasp what I said and went off on one talking in riddles in a 10" post.


  • #98
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,788 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Mod: realdanbreen you are not offering anything useful to the discussion, do not post in this thread again. Continuation of your posting style - trolling one-liners - in other threads in this forum will lead to a holiday from the forum.


  • #99
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    So to summarize the above non exchange there IS no issue with atheists attending such ceremonies.

    Nothing about atheist precludes anyone from being culturally involved with a given religion. Attending ceremonies, especially when doing so as a mark of respect to friends and family who ARE part of said religion, is something many atheists entirely can and often do.

    I am not sure what definition of "atheism" means you are only a "so called" atheist if you attend a wedding or some such.... but it certainly is not one of the definitions of it I have so far encountered.


  • #100
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    So to summarize the above non exchange there IS no issue with atheists attending such ceremonies.

    Nothing about atheist precludes anyone from being culturally involved with a given religion. Attending ceremonies, especially when doing so as a mark of respect to friends and family who ARE part of said religion, is something many atheists entirely can and often do.

    I am not sure what definition of "atheism" means you are only a "so called" atheist if you attend a wedding or some such.... but it certainly is not one of the definitions of it I have so far encountered.

    It seems an odd one. By this logic, a Catholic who attends a wedding in a Protestant church would be a "so called" Catholic.


  • #101
    spacecoyote
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,635 ✭✭✭spacecoyote


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    So to summarize the above non exchange there IS no issue with atheists attending such ceremonies.

    Nothing about atheist precludes anyone from being culturally involved with a given religion. Attending ceremonies, especially when doing so as a mark of respect to friends and family who ARE part of said religion, is something many atheists entirely can and often do.

    I am not sure what definition of "atheism" means you are only a "so called" atheist if you attend a wedding or some such.... but it certainly is not one of the definitions of it I have so far encountered.

    Agree wholeheartedly with this. I'm very much an atheist, and all of my family are fully aware of my standing.

    But I go to an anniversary mass for my wife's grandfather every year, out of respect for her & her family. I don't say the prayers, or take communion, etc... but I am present in the church.

    I'm also Godfather to a niece & a nephew. Again, my family didn't ask me with expectation that I'd give some religious education or upbringing to them. They asked me because they know that I love their children & that I'd care for them at the drop of a hat, if needed.

    I don't see any contradiction in this. I think what I'm doing is morally correct & kind, but not from any sort of Christian perspective


  • Advertisement
Advertisement