What about moving the Dublin Footballers to Ulster

ProudDUB · 03-07-2015 11:05pm

Well Antrim, London and New York all have very large populations too. So let's split them up too, because of their ginormous populations. Makes sense, right? We'll pretend to over look the fact that massive amounts of the people who actually reside in Antrim, London and New York have about as much interest in the GAA, as I do in naked, one armed, blindfold, tiddleywinks competitions.

gaffer91 · 03-07-2015 11:12pm

ProudDUB wrote: »

Well Antrim, London and New York all have very large populations too. So let's split them up too, because their ginormous populations. Makes sense, right? We'll pretend to over look the fact that massive amounts of the people who actually reside in Antrim, London and New York have about as much interest in the GAA, as I do in naked, one armed, blindfold, tiddleywinks competitions.

You're being deliberately obtuse there by pretending there is any similarities between Dublin and the places mentioned. Clearly clutching at straws to try and pretend Dublin don't have an unfair advantage which should be rectified.

LeBash · 03-07-2015 11:23pm

The only reason to split Dublin is to line the pockets of the GAA even further. I don't think there is any will within Dublin to do it.

Plus I'm tired listening to 31 counties giving out about Dublin home advantage while the vast majority of county boards in leinster want it. Please don't add South Dublin to the masses of disgruntled.

ProudDUB · 03-07-2015 11:27pm

I'm not being obtuse at all. There are massive tracts of south county Dublin that are rugby heartland. There are massive tracts of west Dublin/Tallaght where soccer is king. In the area of Glasnevin that I grew up in, none of my neighbours played GAA, or were members of clubs, even though Na Fianna were just down the road. The odd family here and there did, but they were very much in the minority.

It is utter nonsense to think that every single resident of Dublin plays GAA, or is a member of a club and is therefore a part of the never ending convoy of players that we are supposed to have at our disposal. And even if Dublin is broken up, then what? Cork has a population of over 500,000. That is more than the population of several midlands counties combined. Doesn't that give them an unfair advantage too? When are they going to be broken up? The whole thing is just stupid.

listermint · 03-07-2015 11:28pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

Even if Dublin weren't currently dominating the All-Ireland series they should still be split in two. Both for the sake of gaelic football in Leinster and because they have a massive population advantage. If they have historically failed to take advantage of that advantage that's their own fault and no argument against splitting them. For instance, if a team in the premier league started with a 10 point head-start every year but ultimately never won the league it still wouldn't change the fact they have an unfair advantage.

If you had asked me should Dublin have been split in two in 2010 I'd have said yes then too.

That argument would stack up if

A)everyone in Dublin was in to GAA and it didnt have a ridiculous amount of other sports to contend with not to mention non sports activities

Kilkenny has some mad population advantage that we are not seeing

This argument is a ball of ****e every time I hear it

listermint · 03-07-2015 11:30pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

You're being deliberately obtuse there by pretending there is any similarities between Dublin and the places mentioned. Clearly clutching at straws to try and pretend Dublin don't have an unfair advantage which should be rectified.

Ever hear someone cry out 'pony' when you start talking ?

This post may be the source

gaffer91 · 03-07-2015 11:43pm

LeBash wrote: »

The only reason to split Dublin is to line the pockets of the GAA even further.

No it's to keep gaelic football interesting and competitive and viable as a sport.

LeBash wrote: »

I don't think there is any will within Dublin to do it.

Of course there isn't, the current unfairness benefits Dublin massively.

ProudDUB wrote: »

I'm not being obtuse at all. There are massive tracts of south county Dublin that are rugby heartland. There are massive tracts of west Dublin/Tallaght where soccer is king. In the area of Glasnevin that I grew up in, none of my neighbours played GAA, or were members of clubs, even though Na Fianna were just down the road. The odd family here and there did, but they were very much in the minority.

It is utter nonsense to think that every single resident of Dublin plays GAA, or is a member of a club and is therefore a part of the never ending convoy of players that we are supposed to have at our disposal. And even if Dublin is broken up, then what? Cork has a population of over 500,000. That is more than the population of several midlands counties combined. Doesn't that give them an unfair advantage too? When are they going to be broken up? The whole thing is just stupid.

This tired old argument is always trotted out. There are large parts of Cork where people only play hurling. Ditto with parts of Limerick and rugby. Soccer is popular all over the country. Dubs seem to think they're the only county where people play more sports than gaelic football. Newsflash- that isn't the case.

listermint wrote: »

That argument would stack up if

A)everyone in Dublin was in to GAA and it didnt have a ridiculous amount of other sports to contend with not to mention non sports activities

Kilkenny has some mad population advantage that we are not seeing

This argument is a ball of ****e every time I hear it

See above re "Other sports are popular in Dublin too!" argument.

Try to take this on board- just because the Dubs haven't won the All Ireland every year since 1950 doesn't mean they don't have an unfair population advantage. See the argument I made earlier regarding a premier league team having a 10 point bonus every year.

K-9 · 04-07-2015 4:55pm

The solution is making Leinster more competitive, or else a radical overhaul of the system.

Ulster doesn't need tinkering. It's a bit like Munster in hurling, concentrate on ways of making the rest competitive, or else go an open draw format.

K-9 · 04-07-2015 5:00pm

ProudDUB wrote: »

That's funny, because if I cast my mind back a few years, I don't remember all that many newspaper articles, radio panel discussions or internet forums, banging on about the need to split us up. They were far more interested in constantly going on about how rubbish we were. My, how times have changed ! :rolleyes:

The splitting up Dublin idea came before you won the AI in 2011 IIRC, so I don't think your point is valid in that respect.

listermint · 04-07-2015 9:53pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

No it's to keep gaelic football interesting and competitive and viable as a sport.

Of course there isn't, the current unfairness benefits Dublin massively.

This tired old argument is always trotted out. There are large parts of Cork where people only play hurling. Ditto with parts of Limerick and rugby. Soccer is popular all over the country. Dubs seem to think they're the only county where people play more sports than gaelic football. Newsflash- that isn't the case.

See above re "Other sports are popular in Dublin too!" argument.

Try to take this on board- just because the Dubs haven't won the All Ireland every year since 1950 doesn't mean they don't have an unfair population advantage. See the argument I made earlier regarding a premier league team having a 10 point bonus every year.

Your entire argument is trite.should we move Kilkenny out of Leinster because they are decimating the province ?

It's such an idiotic argument everytime I hear it .you should be extremely embarrassed to even raise it. Extremely.

gaffer91 · 05-07-2015 4:01pm

listermint wrote: »

Your entire argument is trite.should we move Kilkenny out of Leinster because they are decimating the province ?

It's such an idiotic argument everytime I hear it .you should be extremely embarrassed to even raise it. Extremely.

I don't know anything about hurling so don't feel fit to comment. However I will say that Dublin should be split because of their unfair population advantage, not just because they're dominating Leinster. Even if they were weren't dominating they should still be split in two. Making Leinster more competitive would be a welcome benefit to splitting them though, I agree.

Never forget the analogy I made previously about a team in the premier league having a 10 point advantage. Dublin have an unfair advantage too, even if they haven't taken full advantage of it historically.

You should be extremely embarrassed to not acknowledge that Dublin have an unfair advantage and that they should be split in two. Extremely.

Justice4Adolf · 05-07-2015 8:05pm

You either have equal population for all or leave the counties as they are.
You want it both ways to suit an anti dublin agenda.

If we're to have 32 teams drawing from equal population pools then get a demographic map, a few pens and a ruler.

We'll make 32 zones. Each with an equal population. There can be a competition or vote or something within the new areas to come up with names. Name them after Saints or Political figures from history whatever. Or just name them by Grid Reference - A1, C7, E3 etc.

The counties were as is often pointed out a british local govt introduction to ireland.

But maybe you don't like this idea because you like your county. It's tradition. Heritage. Culture and history.

Well so does Dublin.

Hibbeler · 05-07-2015 8:16pm

I'd be against the splitting up of Dublin I think if it were to happen it would alter the whole county based ethos of the GAA imo. We'd more likely see smaller counties joining together but that would no doubt be equally fought against.

But one thing I did notice was I looked at the Dublin team that played Kildare and it looks to my untrained eye that most of their squad come from northside clubs. In fact going from this a North Dublin team would probably still be best in Leinster as things stand.

Would this mean that a future North Dublin team would also need splitting up?

salmocab · 05-07-2015 8:54pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

I don't know anything about hurling so don't feel fit to comment. However I will say that Dublin should be split because of their unfair population advantage, not just because they're dominating Leinster. Even if they were weren't dominating they should still be split in two. Making Leinster more competitive would be a welcome benefit to splitting them though, I agree.

Never forget the analogy I made previously about a team in the premier league having a 10 point advantage. Dublin have an unfair advantage too, even if they haven't taken full advantage of it historically.

You should be extremely embarrassed to not acknowledge that Dublin have an unfair advantage and that they should be split in two. Extremely.

Dublin have a population advantage but not an unfair population advantage. Splitting Dublin or moving them wouldn't make other teams in Leinster better only make the Leinster championship weaker. Other counties in Leinster would still have very little chance of getting an AI. The real aim should be to make other counties stronger as they seem to have gone backwards over the last decade or so. No county in Leinster bar Dublin has a hope of winning an AI anytime soon which wasn't the case years ago when Dublin still had the population advantage. The big question should surely be what are the other counties at and why?

Godge · 06-07-2015 12:23am

gaffer91 wrote: »

I don't know anything about hurling so don't feel fit to comment. However I will say that Dublin should be split because of their unfair population advantage, not just because they're dominating Leinster. Even if they were weren't dominating they should still be split in two. Making Leinster more competitive would be a welcome benefit to splitting them though, I agree.

Never forget the analogy I made previously about a team in the premier league having a 10 point advantage. Dublin have an unfair advantage too, even if they haven't taken full advantage of it historically.

You should be extremely embarrassed to not acknowledge that Dublin have an unfair advantage and that they should be split in two. Extremely.

If we split Dublin in two because of population, we will have to split New York and London into 20 teams, don't think we could hand that number of extra teams in the Championship.

Flukey · 06-07-2015 3:59pm

The population argument is of course total nonsense. We can only have 15 men on the pitch at any time. There is no reason that those 15 should be of a higher standard than the best 15 of any other county. If the population argument was true, Dublin would be winning every All-Ireland and there would be howls of laughter if someone was to suggest that Kilkenny could win a Hurling All-Ireland or Kerry win a football.

Outside of Dublin, the standard of maths is not very good. It is not just the bogus population argument but things like how Dublin's 3 All-Ireland's in 30 years proves an advantage which Kerry's 9 or Kilkenny's 10 in the same period does not. Even if you restrict it to Leinster, Dublin have won 15 Leinsters in the past 30 years, while Kilkenny have won 19 in the same period. Kilkenny and Kerry get plaudits for their success. We get begrudgery.

Dublin are not the problem in Leinster. The other 11 counties are, one of which won't bother their arse to even field a team, even though they've actually got more Leinster football success than some that do field a team. Even if Westmeath pull off a shock next Sunday, they'll still be behind the level of success that the Kilkenny footballers have in Leinster. When the other Leinster counties focus on their own game they will, as they often have in the past, win Leinster. However, if one of them has a massive run of success, you can guarantee there won't be a thread in here asking for them to be split into two or moved out of Leinster or any of that kind of rubbish that we've seen in this and other threads about Dublin.

Opinions win the Dublin argument, but the facts don't. Facts trump opinion in any argument. If you want to have a go at Dublin, by all means do so. Just try bringing a few facts to the table. Whatever you opinion about Dublin is, the facts don't back it up. It would be brilliant if our county had the advantages that the other 31 counties think we have. Unfortunately though, we don't. The facts definitively prove that.

K-9 · 06-07-2015 5:15pm

While I'd agree the problem in Leinster is the traditional rivals like Meath and Offaly not being competitive you're fundamentally wrong about Kilkenny.

Galway and Antrim got moved in to provide extra competition. Obviously hurling is a bit easier to fix because of less counties but something was done about Kilkenny, though Wexford and Offaly haven't stepped up at all.

The suggestion of moving some counties was made before but nobody from say Fermanagh wants to be involved in Connacht, even though that is probably the easiest solution to even the provinces out. Move 2 Leinster counties to Munster and 1 to Connacht, 1 Ulster team to Connacht and there's an even spread of teams.

People are very attached to tribal competitions though.

salmocab · 06-07-2015 5:30pm

K-9 wrote: »

Galway and Antrim got moved in to provide extra competition. Obviously hurling is a bit easier to fix because of less counties but something was done about Kilkenny, though Wexford and Offaly haven't stepped up at all.

I think to be fair Galway and Antrim were moved in to Leinster to provide extra competition for Galway and Antrim not Kilkenny. The Galway Antrim move in hurling isn't remotely like any suggestions in football regards Dublin as there was effectively no competition at all for them in hurling whereas Dublin do have regular competition in Leinster albeit not much in the last decade but that will change as the other counties get their arses in gear. This dominance of Leinster by Dublin is temporary and caused by a few things, the good work done in underage football, a freakish arrival of good footballers at the right time, Meath Kildare Offaly and Wexford going backwards in standards and getting the structures at senior level right. This can't last indefinitely.

Flukey · 06-07-2015 5:43pm

Whatever way we change the structures, the same range of teams will end up rising to the surface come the latter stages of the championship. The also-rans will still go out early. What will make the championship more competitive is for individual teams to improve. Putting Galway into Leinster has not improved the quality of Carlow hurling or Louth hurling etc. It has done nothing for Connacht, where the GAA has not even bothered to run a Connacht championship without Galway. Whatever argument for not having a Connacht championship with Galway in it, there is no argument to not have one without Galway. They play an Ulster Hurling championship after all.

The provincial championships should be retained. One of the great things is that when Liam and Sam get handed out in September, several other counties also finish the season with silverware, namely the provincial champions. Have the provincial championships separate then, people say. We already do that in the form of the McKenna Cup, McGrath Cup, O'Byrne Cup and Connacht League and we know what response the counties give to them. It has been so poor that other teams have to be added into them from the academic sector. The provincial championships as an integral part of the All-Ireland championship is a far better system. The counties love it. Players want it. Fans want it. Ask anyone in Killarney yesterday if that match meant nothing. Even in an open draw with no provincials, Kerry v Cork, Galway v Mayo, Dublin v Meath etc. would not have quite the same edge with no silverware on offer.

Kilkenny won their 70th Leinster yesterday. For that reason people say it is pointless. What people forget is that none of the players got a 70th medal yesterday. Some got their first. Those 69 other wins mean nothing to them, but yesterday meant a huge amount. There were no players going up the steps of the Hogan Stand yesterday thinking "Oh no, not again", no matter how many medals they already have. So even the successful counties should not be deprived a chance of winning their province.

It is not just about the All-Ireland medals. Most provincial winners in any year do not get that second medal in September. Provincial championships matter. It is a gem that many other cup competitions in other sports do not have.

K-9 · 06-07-2015 5:56pm

Antrim were moved in to make them competitive, bit like Galway to Munster for a while previously.

Galway needed more games but were/are still a top 6 county.

I suppose it killed 2 birds in one stone.

Laois are making good strides, then again so did Dublin in the old system, that will happen regardless of who is in the competition.

Leinster hurling was always Kilkenny and Wexford with a golden generation of Offaly hurlers for a while, a truely remarkable story, but not something that can be relied on long term.

Hibbeler · 06-07-2015 6:00pm

Flukey wrote: »

Whatever way we change the structures, the same range of teams will end up rising to the surface come the latter stages of the championship. The also-rans will still go out early. What will make the championship more competitive is for individual teams to improve. Putting Galway into Leinster has not improved the quality of Carlow hurling or Louth hurling etc. It has done nothing for Connacht, where the GAA has not even bothered to run a Connacht championship without Galway. Whatever argument for not having a Connacht championship with Galway in it, there is no argument to not have one without Galway. They play an Ulster Hurling championship after all.

I know it's a good bit off topic for this thread but you are right about the Connaught hurling championship, there is no real reason they can't play one without Galway. In fact it would be a good idea to include the non Liam McCarthy hurling teams from Leinster (i.e. Meath, Kildare, Longford etc.) in either the Ulster or Connaught hurling championships, give those teams a chance at provincial silverware. With Galway and Antrim featuring in Leinster the precedent for moving provinces has been set in Hurling.

Optimalprimerib · 06-07-2015 6:09pm

It would be very hard on the ulster fans to travel to croke park for every game.

K-9 · 06-07-2015 6:19pm

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

It would be very hard on the ulster fans to travel to croke park for every game.

OUCH!

Flukey · 06-07-2015 6:24pm

Hibbeler wrote: »

With Galway and Antrim featuring in Leinster the precedent for moving provinces has been set in Hurling.

What a bad and pointless precedent it was, like Galway's previous movement to Munster. It has changed nothing. Galway are now playing teams like Offaly, Laois, Dublin and Kilkenny. Hold on, didn't they used to do that anyway? Yes. Antrim regularly played teams outside of Ulster too. So nothing really changed. It didn't help any of the Connacht, Ulster and the other Leinster Hurling teams. The whole failed experiment should be scrapped and we should go back to where we were, which is where we are anyway, if you see what I mean. Coming back to this topic: The same experiment should not be tried with changing football. Dublin, as a single county, should play in the Leinster Football Championship with the benefit of all the non-existent advantages that people think they have.

Drumpot · 06-07-2015 6:36pm

Flukey wrote: »

What a bad and pointless precedent it was, like Galway's previous movement to Munster. It has changed nothing. Galway are now playing teams like Offaly, Laois, Dublin and Kilkenny. Hold on, didn't they used to do that anyway? Yes. Antrim regularly played teams outside of Ulster too. So nothing really changed. It didn't help any of the Connacht, Ulster and the other Leinster Hurling teams. The whole failed experiment should be scrapped and we should go back to where we were, which is where we are anyway, if you see what I mean. Coming back to this topic: The same experiment should not be tried with changing football. Dublin, as a single county, should play in the Leinster Football Championship with the benefit of all the non-existent advantages that people think they have.

Last time I checked it was Kerry dominating football and Kilkenny dominating hurling. Not sure why people think splitting up dublin is worthwhile. In the last 30 years meath have won 4 all irelands , Tyrone and cork have won 3 (just as many as dublin) and we never heard any talk of splitting up these counties. It's just small man syndrome.

The facts in hurling and football show that dublin having a major population doesn't consistantly set it apart from the others. Gaelic sports are more passionately cherished in certain counties and it shows. Kilkenny and Kerry are the benchmark, not Dublin.

What is even more damning for the anti Dublin brigade is that the most recent success has been mainly down to the change of strategy in early 00s. Unlike the rest of the counties wasting their resources and whining about Dublin, Dublin started to utilise it's resources much better and put long term plans in place.

Flukey · 06-07-2015 6:39pm

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

It would be very hard on the ulster fans to travel to croke park for every game.

Very true. After all not one single person from Ulster lives outside the province. There is not one individual from the 9 Ulster counties that lives in any of the other 23, in say, places like Dublin. It would clearly be blatantly unfair to ask Ulster people who live in Dublin to have to go to Croke Park for matches. Of course maybe they don't live there. In fact, they couldn't. After all, the entire population of Dublin, all 1 million of them, live in Drumcondra, Clonliffe Road, Jones' Road, the North Circular Road and Ballybough, all within 10 minutes walk of Croke Park. The rest of Dublin is completely deserted. Isn't that true or, shock horror, could it be another one of the complete and utter bits of nonsense that the other 31 counties come up with? Yes, they would have us believe that nobody in the entire country lives outside of the county they are originally from and this is most especially so in Dublin where the entire population lives within those 10 minutes of Croke Park, and not one has ever been at a match outside of Dublin. They have only ever been at a match in Croke Park, which of course means they have never attended a Dublin home game, which of course happen in Parnell Park.

Drumpot · 06-07-2015 6:52pm

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

It would be very hard on the ulster fans to travel to croke park for every game.

Hmmm. I don't ever hear of any counties refusing any of the proceeds shared from the bumper crowds at Croker from Dublin games.

I would love to see it put to a vote to all counties to stop these shallow arguments. I loved travelling around Leinster for Dublin games in the 90s and feel that Dublin fans and players are missing out on that great experience.

It's not always an advantage playing at Croke park either. In the bigger games there are seldom much between teams. So often when things were turning against Dublin the Crowd actually put more pressure on Dublin (who folded under the expectation and pressure).

The GAA wants to maximise its revenue and all counties are happy to share the rewards. But sure isn't it more important to attack Dublin as if they make the call and everybody is against it !!! Never let the truth get in the way of a good whine....

Flukey · 06-07-2015 7:04pm

Drumpot wrote: »

I loved travelling around Leinster for Dublin games in the 90s and feel that Dublin fans and players are missing out on that great experience.

Yep, it is terrible how we never have to travel. How disappointing it was when I walked out my door here in Dublin on Saturday last and straight into O'Moore Park which had been teleported to Dublin for the game. It is also disappointing that Semple Stadium will be moved to Dublin next Saturday so that I don't have to travel to it. A bit like when I walked out of my door into it twice in 2001 for the draw and replay against Kerry, which is a bit like how I walked out my door earlier this year and straight into Fitzgerald Stadium to play Kerry there. It really is terrible that like Croke Park and our home ground in Parnell Park, every single GAA ground in the country gets teleported to outside my door.

A bit more seriously, it is always strange that travelling from say Kildare to Croke Park gets moaned about, while say travelling from Waterford to Cusack Park in Ennis, or from Antrim to MacCumhail Park in Ballybofey etc. is perfectly acceptable.

ardmacha · 06-07-2015 7:16pm

salmocab wrote: »

Dublin have a population advantage but not an unfair population advantage.

You have more than the rest of province with 12 teams put together!

If we split Dublin in two because of population, we will have to split New York and London into 20 teams, don't think we could hand that number of extra teams in the Championship.

They are not in Ireland shouldn't be in the All Ireland championship anyhow. Let the British or Americans make whatever arrangements they wish.

salmocab · 06-07-2015 8:14pm

ardmacha wrote: »

You have more than the rest of province with 12 teams put together!

well 10 other football teams, but that doesn't make it unfair which was my point, I conceded that its an advantage but its not unfair. Dublin has had the biggest population since the start of the AI series. As other people have put it unless we split Ireland into 32 equal sized counties then thats the way it is. For what its worth I think something needs to be done about Leinster but weakening Dublin is not the answer its surely to find a way to make other counties stronger. No other sport would suggest the way to break a dominance of a team is to drag them backwards or shift them out to some other competition.

gormdubhgorm · 06-07-2015 9:15pm

Some people are going on about splitting dublin in two my answer to that always is: why don't they split the cats in 9 in hurling. There was never a mention of spitting Kerry in two when they were going for the five in a row in the 80s. They had already done a three in a row AI. Dublin are not at that level (yet).

The reality is the provincial system is inequitable. Kerry, Cork, Dublin and Mayo are virtually garunteed at least a quarter final each year.This is especially so with the back door system.

I would love dublin to play all their matches AWAY in Ulster in the likes of Healy Park. It would be great craic. The dubs could bring a bit of glamour to ulster

. Plus even Ulster seems to be losing its competivness these days with Donegal dominating.

gaffer91 · 06-07-2015 9:58pm

Obviously a lot of nonsense has been posted here so won't reply to all of it. The key point is clearly being lost on a lot of people so I'll repeat it again- just because Dublin haven't won the all-Ireland every year doesn't mean they don't have an unfair advantage.

If a team in the premier league had a ten point head start every year and didn't win the league it doesn't mean they don't have an unfair advantage, it just means they haven't made good use of it.

Arguments about splitting Kilkenny in two are irrelevant- the crux of it is Dublin's population, not their success levels- they have a population of 1.3 million versus an average of around 200,000. Some poster suggested that it's 15 v 15 on the pitch so this won't matter- if you've a bigger pool to draw from you naturally will end up having better players. Even Cork don't come close. Comparisons with NY, Antrim and London are laughable and aren't even worth commenting on.

Splitting Dublin in two would make it a more level playing field. It would help prevent Dublin unfairly dominating. It would make Leinster more competitive. It's probably the #1 change to Gaelic Football that the GAA top brass could make in terms of overall benefits to the game.

salmocab · 06-07-2015 10:08pm

Whats this 10 point head start you have mentioned a couple of times? Comparisons with NY and London are laughable but I think the posters who mentioned it were saying it with tongues firmly in cheeks. Comparisons with Antrim aren't as unfair though, Belfast is a large enough city in a county with a population of 600 odd thousand.
Splitting Dublin in 2 wouldn't make any team in Leinster any stronger and in fact would weaken the All Ireland as it would take away a potential winner. To be clear a weaker Dublin doesn't give Leitrim a better chance of winning an AI just makes it easier for Kerry Mayo Cork or Donegal and thats not something that would benefit the game overall.

DoctaDee · 06-07-2015 10:30pm

I tend to tune out when people use premier league analogies to enforce a point about our national games - if ever there was an prime example of the haves and have nots it's that facade of a 20 team competition.

Jayop · 06-07-2015 10:49pm

1) Don't touch Ulster. It's the only province that's really worth winning at the moment and it's still popular with the support.
2) If you're going to change Dublin, don't change it for the sake of making them weaker, change it to give more players a chance to play county.
3) Splitting them in two is the only realistic thing to do but it's still not going to happen.
4) The population argument isn't a stupid one. Dublin has a massive playing population and so many of them lads have no chance of playing county. Same with Cork though.
5) Leave them alone though really. Play the provincials separate to the AI and the AI as a stand alone open competition.

Flukey · 06-07-2015 11:37pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

Obviously a lot of nonsense has been posted here so won't reply to all of it. The key point is clearly being lost on a lot of people so I'll repeat it again- just because Dublin haven't won the all-Ireland every year doesn't mean they don't have an unfair advantage.

If a team in the premier league had a ten point head start every year and didn't win the league it doesn't mean they don't have an unfair advantage, it just means they haven't made good use of it.

Arguments about splitting Kilkenny in two are irrelevant- the crux of it is Dublin's population, not their success levels- they have a population of 1.3 million versus an average of around 200,000. Some poster suggested that it's 15 v 15 on the pitch so this won't matter- if you've a bigger pool to draw from you naturally will end up having better players. Even Cork don't come close. Comparisons with NY, Antrim and London are laughable and aren't even worth commenting on.

Splitting Dublin in two would make it a more level playing field. It would help prevent Dublin unfairly dominating. It would make Leinster more competitive. It's probably the #1 change to Gaelic Football that the GAA top brass could make in terms of overall benefits to the game.

Your post is full of contradictions. You are saying Dublin have an advantage but it is of no advantage to them. You can't have it both ways. No one is going to stand up and say Dublin does not have a bigger population. Of course it does. You then go on to say it is an advantage, yet can show no evidence that it is and basically even admit that it isn't. To say there is an advantage would usually be backed up by some evidence of how that advantage manifests itself. If Dublin aren't getting success out of the their bigger population then they don't have an advantage. Success levels do matter if you are trying to make a case of there being an advantage. If Dublin are getting less success than counties of considerably smaller populations, then having a larger population is clearly no advantage. The great irony of splitting Dublin in two being better for Leinster is that we could end up with many Dublin North v Dublin South Leinster finals, so the end result would be to exclude the other Leinster counties even more. They may get hammered next Sunday, but by there being only one Dublin team in Leinster, Westmeath have been able to get to the final. With only one Dublin team we are always guaranteed a non-Dublin team in it.

Even if we go with your thesis that Dublin do have an unfair advantage (which they clearly don't), if they are not making the most of it then what is the problem? You started by saying there was a lot of nonsense posted here. Stating that Dublin have an advantage that has proved to be of no advantage is one of the best examples of that, as is saying that they should not be allowed to have an advantage that is of no advantage to them.

Jayop · 06-07-2015 11:57pm

Is there any where to see the numbers of club players in each county?

gormdubhgorm · 07-07-2015 12:17am

Jayop wrote: »

Is there any where to see the numbers of club players in each county?

I read before per capita Meath have got more clubs then Dublin. We all know the state Meath football is in at the moment..

It is not just a question of resources it is a question if efficiently managing those resources.

K-9 · 07-07-2015 1:05am

salmocab wrote: »

Whats this 10 point head start you have mentioned a couple of times? Comparisons with NY and London are laughable but I think the posters who mentioned it were saying it with tongues firmly in cheeks. Comparisons with Antrim aren't as unfair though, Belfast is a large enough city in a county with a population of 600 odd thousand.
Splitting Dublin in 2 wouldn't make any team in Leinster any stronger and in fact would weaken the All Ireland as it would take away a potential winner. To be clear a weaker Dublin doesn't give Leitrim a better chance of winning an AI just makes it easier for Kerry Mayo Cork or Donegal and thats not something that would benefit the game overall.

Belfast covers Down as well, many of ye Free Staters don't know that.

Hibbeler · 07-07-2015 7:08am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I read before per capita Meath have got more clubs then Dublin. We all know the state Meath football is in at the moment..

It is not just a question of resources it is a question if efficiently managing those resources.

Compare the player numbers of a typical Meath club to a typical Dublin club. It's player numbers that would be a better point to use in any of these arguments rather than how many tiny junior clubs a county has

DoctaDee · 07-07-2015 10:49am

I haven't seen the latest figures but at the start of the 2011-17 strategic plan we fielded 1359 juvenile and 494 adult teams combined in both hurling & football. We had 7,500 kids in club nurseries and 56,000 members (player, family, associate etc).

gaffer91 · 07-07-2015 11:13am

Flukey wrote: »

Your post is full of contradictions. You are saying Dublin have an advantage but it is of no advantage to them. You can't have it both ways. No one is going to stand up and say Dublin does not have a bigger population. Of course it does. You then go on to say it is an advantage, yet can show no evidence that it is and basically even admit that it isn't. To say there is an advantage would usually be backed up by some evidence of how that advantage manifests itself. If Dublin aren't getting success out of the their bigger population then they don't have an advantage. Success levels do matter if you are trying to make a case of there being an advantage. If Dublin are getting less success than counties of considerably smaller populations, then having a larger population is clearly no advantage. The great irony of splitting Dublin in two being better for Leinster is that we could end up with many Dublin North v Dublin South Leinster finals, so the end result would be to exclude the other Leinster counties even more. They may get hammered next Sunday, but by there being only one Dublin team in Leinster, Westmeath have been able to get to the final. With only one Dublin team we are always guaranteed a non-Dublin team in it.

Even if we go with your thesis that Dublin do have an unfair advantage (which they clearly don't), if they are not making the most of it then what is the problem? You started by saying there was a lot of nonsense posted here. Stating that Dublin have an advantage that has proved to be of no advantage is one of the best examples of that, as is saying that they should not be allowed to have an advantage that is of no advantage to them.

See my analogy about the premier league team. Just because they don't win every year does this mean they don't have an unjustified leg-up? I would say no.

It's the same with Dublin, just because they don't win every year doesn't mean they don't have an unfair advantage. All-Ireland's are not the only barometer by which to measure success. I would suggest that Dublin could be doing much worse if this unfair advantage was taken away from them- e.g less All-Irelands, less provincial titles, neither of the Dublin teams would advance as far every year in the All-Ireland series etc. They might still win provincial and All-Ireland titles some years but I doubt they'd be as successful if they were split.

For instance, you say that because Dublin have less success than Kerry they don't have an unfair advantage- I would suggest to you that they would have even less success again if the playing field was levelled and their unfair advantage was taken away from them.

Dublin South and North wouldn't be the only way to split the county i'm sure. Even if it was the Leinster championship could be set up in such a way that they could meet each other before the final so there would still be a chance for a non-Dublin team to get to the final.

Honestly, I don't care what county you're from, you should be behind splitting Dublin in two. There are a lot of benefits and hardly any negatives.

Flukey · 07-07-2015 1:57pm

Gaffer91, you keep on going on about this unfair advantage but can't explain how it manifests itself. If population is an issue then it should affect all counties proportionately, so the populations of Kerry and Kilkenny are relevant. Like most of the anti-Dublin stuff we see in this forum, this unfair advantage is a figment of the imagination. Having a large population is not a figment of your imagination, but that it gives Dublin an advantage is, and that is proven by hard facts. All this suggesting that Dublin would not do as well if this mythical advantage was removed is irrelevant. We can only deal with facts, not mights and maybes. Are you going to give credence to the fact that a few old men that were alive in 1951 are still alive as being the reason why Mayo have not won an All-Ireland since then? You could argue that had they all been dead 20 years ago that Mayo would have won several more All-Irelands. We have no proof of that, and we have no proof that Dublin's population aids them. We have plenty of proof that it doesn't though. Maybe if we get some engineers to do a massive job and divert the Nore so that it doesn't flow through Kilkenny any more, the amount of All-Irelands they win will drop. Total nonsense of course. Just like your Dublin population notion so.

jethro081 · 07-07-2015 3:07pm

Flukey wrote: »

Gaffer91, you keep on going on about this unfair advantage but can't explain how it manifests itself. If population is an issue then it should affect all counties proportionately, so the populations of Kerry and Kilkenny are relevant. Like most of the anti-Dublin stuff we see in this forum, this unfair advantage is a figment of the imagination. Having a large population is not a figment of your imagination, but that it gives Dublin an advantage is, and that is proven by hard facts. All this suggesting that Dublin would not do as well if this mythical advantage was removed is irrelevant. We can only deal with facts, not mights and maybes. Are you going to give credence to the fact that a few old men that were alive in 1951 are still alive as being the reason why Mayo have not won an All-Ireland since then? You could argue that had they all been dead 20 years ago that Mayo would have won several more All-Irelands. We have no proof of that, and we have no proof that Dublin's population aids them. We have plenty of proof that it doesn't though. Maybe if we get some engineers to do a massive job and divert the Nore so that it doesn't flow through Kilkenny any more, the amount of All-Irelands they win will drop. Total nonsense of course. Just like your Dublin population notion so.

the top six counties in ireland at the minute, in no particular order, are kerry, donegal, dublin, mayo, cork, monaghan.
in terms of population those counties rank, 14th, 12th, 1st 17th, 4th and 29th respectively.

if the population argument held true, then surely they would rank one to six in terms of population. even if they were all top ten that'd support the argument, but they are not. Even if you exclude some of the six counties which would have significant unionist populations who do not necessarily buy into the GAA, teams like Kildare, Galway, Limerick and Meath should be absolutely hammering the likes of mayo, monaghan and kerry.

The simple fact is ,that population doesn't mean success. It didn't mean success when we all got a good laugh out of dublin losing a semi final every year in the noughties. it didn't mean success when monaghan beat kildare in the qualifiers last year, despite kildare having a population 3 and a half times the size.

football dominance is largely cyclical. the dubs are up now, and it's especially apparent because everyone else in leinster is down. that won't last forever. the dubs will have some fallow years, and meath or kildare will actually sort their sh1t out and put out a strong team again.

Also dublin have won three all irelands with this team. Tyrone won that many in the 2000s and kerry won more. Mayo have been in more finals than dublin. Donegal have been in two of the last three finals, winning one. Dublin have made it to one final in that time, and won it. It's not like they are steamrolling the all ireland series which is the impression you get from a lot of people.

People need to stop talking about Dublin as champions elect since they didn't even win the bloody thing last year.

gaffer91 · 07-07-2015 5:01pm

Flukey wrote: »

Gaffer91, you keep on going on about this unfair advantage but can't explain how it manifests itself.

I have explained it but will do so again: Dublin win more games than they would if they were split in two. While population is not the only thing determining success in Gaelic Football, Dublin's population so much larger than average (6 x the average county population) that it should be deemed an unfair advantage.

Flukey wrote: »

Having a large population is not a figment of your imagination, but that it gives Dublin an advantage is, and that is proven by hard facts. All this suggesting that Dublin would not do as well if this mythical advantage was removed is irrelevant. We can only deal with facts, not mights and maybes.

It's not proven by any hard facts. The only way to tell for sure if it gives Dublin an unfair advantage would be to split them in two. So therefore the suggestion is not irrelevant, it's the essence of what I've been explaining to you these last few posts.

The fact you're getting so worked up about this sensible and workable proposal tells me I've struck a nerve. I think deep down you know that Dublin wouldn't be as successful if they were split and that's why you will defend their unfair advantage to the death.

Most of the rest of the post rambles on about Mayo players from 1951 or if the Nore was diverted and I can't really make head nor tail of it.

jethro081 wrote: »

if the population argument held true, then surely they would rank one to six in terms of population. even if they were all top ten that'd support the argument, but they are not. Even if you exclude some of the six counties which would have significant unionist populations who do not necessarily buy into the GAA, teams like Kildare, Galway, Limerick and Meath should be absolutely hammering the likes of mayo, monaghan and kerry.

The simple fact is ,that population doesn't mean success. .

Population isn't the only thing determining success but it is very important. And I'm sure it reaches critical mass when your population is 6 times the average as opposed to a few tens of thousands either way.

It mightn't mean success every year but it would mean an unfair advantage.

Say a team like Cork was allowed to take a player of their choice from another county every year. Would they win the All-Ireland every year? No. Would they have an unfair advantage over the rest of the counties? Yes. That's what I mean when I say Dublin have an unfair advantage- they mightn't win every year but the advantage still exists. How do we remedy this? Simple, split them into two teams.

ardmacha · 07-07-2015 6:44pm

Flukey wrote: »

Gaffer91, you keep on going on about this unfair advantage but can't explain how it manifests itself. If population is an issue then it should affect all counties proportionately, so the populations of Kerry and Kilkenny are relevant. Like most of the anti-Dublin stuff we see in this forum, this unfair advantage is a figment of the imagination. .

This is simplistic. Like the old adage about a good big man beating a good small man, a well organised big county will generally have an advantage of a well organised small county. In the above list Monaghan will probably not win the All Ireland and the limited depth of their panel will contribute to this, although they are well organised and managed. If Dublin is to remain its present size then any sort of equal competition will only arise if it is not well organised, and nobody wants that.

That said Kildare and Meath have populations that should mean that one or other of them is in contention at any point and they should look to their own organisation, as should Louth where hurling is not played much.

Flukey · 07-07-2015 6:49pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

I have explained it but will do so again: Dublin win more games than they would if they were split in two.

That's an opinion or an assumption, not a fact. So no, you have not explained it. In fact, splitting Dublin would give us an advantage, as we'd have two teams while all others would only have one.

gaffer91 wrote: »

It's not proven by any hard facts. The only way to tell for sure if it gives Dublin an unfair advantage would be to split them in two.

Even you acknowledge yourself that it is not proven by hard facts. We can prove the opposite though by comparing the populations of counties and their rates of success. So there is no need to split Dublin or any other county as we can already clearly see that it is not an issue. There is no correlation. You could equally argue that all counties should be split in two to see if all counties have their success proportionately reduced. Dublin may have the largest population, but that does not make it a special case above the 31 other counties. If you are going to split counties then it would be done to more than just Dublin. Others with large populations and ones with a high level of success should all be split at the same time.

gaffer91 wrote: »

The fact you're getting so worked up about this sensible and workable proposal tells me I've struck a nerve. I think deep down you know that Dublin wouldn't be as successful if they were split and that's why you will defend their unfair advantage to the death.

First it is not a sensible proposal. Secondly I can't and have not defended the unfair advantage, as there isn't one. I am typing posts, not getting worked up. If I am getting worked up, then so must you. Deep down or right up at the surface it is the same for me. In your case you are actually closer to me, in that you acknowledge there is no proven advantage. So whatever about deep down with me, we can say that at or extremely close to the surface, you know there is no advantage.

gaffer91 wrote: »

Most of the rest of the post rambles on about Mayo players from 1951 or if the Nore was diverted and I can't really make head nor tail of it.

Now you understand how others feel about your equally nonsensical thesis and idea to address this non-existent issue.

Dublin are successful at present because they have good players. The larger population is not why that happens. Exceptional players can come from any county and any size of population. All of Ireland's counties, from Dublin down through the population sizes can find 30 or 40 good players to build a squad out of. Every county has the players that we talk of as being good enough to play for any county, but can't get on their own first team. So even the smallest counties are capable of finding enough good players to build a squad and have some left over. Dublin may have a larger pick, but that does not mean their best players are going to better than those of any other counties. As we've seen, some of the greatest players of all time have come from counties with considerably smaller populations.

Having a larger pick also doesn't mean Dublin can add any more to their squads. So having a larger amount of quality players doesn't help us. About 30 or 40 are on the squad and the rest are left looking on, exactly the same as all other counties. Dublin just have more looking on. The players that don't play are not an advantage. Their level of ability has nothing to do with how many people are living in their county and the population doesn't make it easier for them to get in the squad. Outside of people's imaginations, Dublin's population has no advantage to them.

Flukey · 07-07-2015 7:14pm

Gaffer91, we do understand what you are saying. To put it in simple terms you could say Dublin has 1000 top quality players and county X only has 100, so that is clearly an advantage. It isn't though. Dublin and county X can only field the exact same amount of players and there is no reason why the best of Dublin's 1000 would be better than the best of county X's 100. What would give Dublin an advantage would be to split Dublin into more teams, so that Dublin could use more of those players. Now that would be unfair. We should, as we are, be restricted to having the same amount of teams so that we can't take advantage of our larger population. Split Dublin in two if you want, but that would only give Dublin an unfair advantage. Nobody wants that.

salmocab · 07-07-2015 8:05pm

Im happy to concede as Ive said before that Dublin has a population advantage but its not unfair and keeping repeating the phrase unfair population advantage doesn't make it so but that said if Dublin was split in two and lets just say North and south as thats the easiest and most obvious way then what? Based on current players and relative strengths of other counties (for now most are weak but to be fair its unlikely that Meath and Kildare won't be able to get their houses in order at some stage soon) its likely that DN would still win Leinster in football as most of the current team are northsiders probably beating DS in the semis as your not only happy to disadvantage Dublin by splitting the county but seem to think it would be okay to further disadvantage them by putting both on the same side of the draw. Then DN progress to 1/4 stage and probably win that before coming up against one of Mayo Kerry or Donegal one of whom may have beaten DS in the 1/4 final because they got a decent draw in the qualifiers. How did that make either Leinster or the AI better? Then we have hurling where again based on where the current team come from we have one stronger team this time DS. DS get beaten as soon as they come up against Galway or KK then its qualifier time for them where they join DN in the qualifier series. Hurling certainly doesn't do well out of this either in Leinster or the AI series. All thats happened really is interest has been lost in both codes and people from Dublin have been denied the chance to represent their county. On top of that no one else in Leinster has got any better because Dublin aren't the reason everyone else is currently playing bad.

Stephen15 · 11-07-2015 1:12am

Or another idea would be to split up up Dublin into Dun Laoghaire Rathdown, South Dublin, Dublin City and Fingal

What about moving the Dublin Footballers to Ulster

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