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Do you believe in fate / destiny?

2»

Comments

  • #52
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Nature doesn't determine anything.

    Hang on. If you believe in karma, you have to believe that some form of intelligence discerns something. Is karma outside of nature?
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    How does a rose grow through the cracks in concrete, it doesn't decide to go left or right - it just happens.

    I understand this, but it doesn't make sense to believe in karma if you don't believe there is a form of intelligence involved.

    From what I can tell, nature doesn't seem to care a lot about right and wrong. If it did all those who died in earthquakes and tsunamis would have deserved it.
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    I said Karma comes close to what I believe as I believe in consequences and reward.

    You're not going the full way though. If karma is true, bad things happen to bad people. The opposite is also true. Bad things happen to good people. Good things also happen to bad people. How does karma explain this?

    I have difficulty with this concept.
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    "Explanation" for what I feel the meaning of life is and what happens when we die?? Are you serious?

    Well, I get told that I must have a good reason for believing in something. Do the standards change when we talk about something else other than God?

    Yes, I'm serious. If good reason is required to believe in God, good reason is required to believe in karma.
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Mercy requies a God of some sort and I do not believe in any God whatsoever.

    I have yet to see what is more reasonable about karma than about mercy.
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Mercy is also a loophole for people to do what the f**k the wish and think "Ah sure, I'll be alright - God will have mercy on me".

    Do you think an all knowing God would buy that? If people do whatever the f--- they want (which people do pretty much already), they will be accountable for it on the day of judgement.

    My point about bad things happening to good people applies though.
    Ickle Magoo wrote:
    You didn't ask if people thought it was was valid for you, you asked what they thought. It's not a valid concept to me because I can't see the point, I can't see it in action, I can't see anything that wouldn't have happened by chance anyway. Like most of the "faith" stuff, if you want to believe you can see patterns and intervention just about anywhere - I don't, I just see people who want to see patterns and interventions.

    Post-modernism at work surely?

    I said this:
    Jakkass wrote:
    I don't see how just because it might be a harsh concept at times that it makes it less valid to hold.

    I never said for me. I said, just because something is harsh doesn't mean it is less valid. I never included the clause "to me".


  • #53
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Jakkass wrote: »
    How can nature discern what is good, from what is evil on a universal scale?
    I think you need to begin by defining what you mean by good and evil. The de facto notion of evil that many people adopt is based on the impact on victims which isn't very satisfactory.


  • #54
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    I can't to be honest.

    I guess buddhism would be the 'religion' that would come close to what I believe happens after we kick the bucket. Some kind of Karma must exsist.

    To quote Stephen Styler ..

    "You know it's true, all the things - come back to you."

    Okay, after we kick the bucket, that's more reasonable.

    You do realise that karma is intended as a theory to explain what happens in this world?

    I have yet to see how this view is more reasonable than any other concerning this.

    In some religions that use karma such as Hinduism, they believe that bad things happen in this world because of a past life. On the documentary on Channel 4, there was a key theme in that people said that those who had died in the 2004 Tsunami had been killed because of something in a past life and that this was karma.
    lugha wrote: »
    I think you need to begin by defining what you mean by good and evil. The de facto notion of evil that many people adopt is based on the impact on victims which isn't very satisfactory.

    Indeed, this is the issue with karma. If nature is going to decide what is good, and what is evil, and those who are evil deserve to be punished, and those who are good are going to be rewarded.

    How does nature know what is good or evil if it does not have an intelligence, and if it does not have a universal standard of good and evil?

    This is what I want to know too!


  • #55
    Niall Keane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Niall Keane


    Fate is something you overcome to achieve your destiny.


  • #56
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Jakkass wrote: »
    There are things that we have little control over, and then there are other things that we have absolutely no control over.

    Wouldn't those things be just luck/probability ? eg. if I'm going on holidays and I'm in an airplane that crashes -- I can't stop it crashing. Such is the nature of air travel that accidents do happen on occassion. They often involve people, and in this case I happen to be on of those people.

    No I don't believe in fate or destiny.


  • #57
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Hang on. If you believe in karma, you have to believe that some form of intelligence discerns something.

    I don't have to believe anything.

    I believe that we evolve and progress as a life force of some description.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I understand this, but it doesn't make sense to believe in karma if you don't believe there is a form of intelligence involved.

    Why? That's you putting a preconceived notion on what Karma must be.

    I am not doing that.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    From what I can tell, nature doesn't seem to care a lot about right and wrong. If it did all those who died in earthquakes and tsunamis would have deserved it.

    Exactly, there is no right and wrong.

    When you break the laws of nature you break life.

    It's the circle of life.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    You're not going the full way though.

    The full way through what??

    I am telling you that my beliefs are close to buddhists believe, that's it. I am not a buddhist so it is pointless asking me questions as if I was.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I have yet to see what is more reasonable about karma than about mercy.

    Mercy requires a supreme being and Karma does not.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Do you think an all knowing God would buy that? If people do whatever the f--- they want (which people do pretty much already), they will be accountable for it on the day of judgement.

    But why is he not showing Mercy in this situation also?


  • #58
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    I don't have to believe anything.

    I believe that we evolve and progress as a life force of some description.

    I mean, if you are going to think logically about karma, there would have to be some form of intelligence involved otherwise it wouldn't make sense.

    How are the wicked punished, and the good rewarded in your opinion in this life as that is what karma is about?
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Why? That's you putting a preconceived notion on what Karma must be.

    I'm trying to follow on logically. There has to be some form of discernment involved. See above.
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    I am not doing that.

    Riteo, if you don't want to think about how karma works that's fine.
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Exactly, there is no right and wrong.

    Easy easy! That is not what I said :)

    There is observably right and wrong in this world, if there wasn't there would be absolute anarchy. I'm quite sure that you would find rape and murder to be wrong.

    For karma to exist, there would have to be right or wrong. I don't believe in karma, but you do.

    Just because right and wrong are not contained within nature doesn't mean that right and wrong do not exist. Just that they exist outside of the natural world.
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    The full way through what??

    You aren't following logically from your belief in karma. You have contradicted yourself a few times already. I'm really interested in how this works.
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    I am telling you that my beliefs are close to buddhists believe, that's it. I am not a buddhist so it is pointless asking me questions as if I was.

    I am asking you questions about your belief in karma it doesn't matter whether or not your are Buddhist.

    If there is no such thing as right and wrong. How can good fall on the good, and bad fall on the wicked if there indeed is no such thing as good or evil? Do you see how that doesn't make sense?
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Mercy requires a supreme being and Karma does not.

    Logically both would. Karma requires an intelligence of right and wrong, and mercy requires an intelligence to forgive.

    I don't see how karma is any more reasonable.
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    But why is her not showing Mercy in this situation also?

    Mercy is available to those who seek it. If you don't seek mercy, you don't have a good reason to complain about not receiving it.

    Again, much respect OutlawPete, but your views aren't making much sense to me right now! :confused:


  • #59
    neil_hosey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭neil_hosey


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Do you believe in such a thing as fate, that things are destined to occur to you, or that there is a driving influence in events in your life that you really cannot control?

    well, ur gonna die..


  • #60
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No
    ^^ Of course. What we don't agree on is what happens after :)


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  • #61
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Jakkass wrote: »
    ^^ Of course. What we don't agree on is what happens after :)
    Decomposition?


  • #62
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I mean, if you are going to think logically about karma, there would have to be some form of intelligence involved otherwise it wouldn't make sense.

    Just beacuse something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean somebody else can't wrap their mind around it.

    Can you make sense of Space and the Universe and where it ends etc etc?

    Some things just are and people have a sense of belief in things and no explaning can be done.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    How are the wicked punished, and the good rewarded in your opinion in this life as that is what karma is about?

    They don't become what they could be. They just are.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    if you don't want to think about how karma works that's fine.

    I have told you three times. Karma is a word I am using, that is all.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    There is observably right and wrong in this world, if there wasn't there would be absolute anarchy. I'm quite sure that you would find rape and murder to be wrong.

    I believe the rapist is causing pain and suffering and this will effect them and the person and the ripples of this will go on and on and the person will have to know this and feel it at some point.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    For karma to exist, there would have to be right or wrong. I don't believe in karma, but you do.

    I said close to Karma, stop being so matter of fact. There is no right or wrong on this issue.

    We all thrown into this world like a dog without a fricking bone and so what a person believes can never be proven to be right or wrong.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Just because right and wrong are not contained within nature doesn't mean that right and wrong do not exist.

    It does to me.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    You aren't following logically from your belief in karma. You have contradicted yourself a few times already. I'm really interested in how this works.

    Look man, you started this thread and if you want more people to participate in whatever it is you want to discuss here then you need to get a grip.

    You have asked people if they believe in Destiny and when I give you reasons why I don't you start on about beind "Illogical" and that I am "Contradicting myself" and "Not making sense".

    It's very annoying.


  • #63
    Abi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,058 ✭✭✭✭Abi


    I don't really know how to answer this, its tempting to just slate it but there are somethings that are out of our control somewhat. We have some sway over the likes of career, love etc. But what can you say about someone who might have been involved in a car accident that wasn't their fault, and they died as a result?

    You can only make the best of the aspects of your life that you have some control over, the rest isn't down us really, is it?


  • #64
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No
    OutlawPete: I'm just questioning, is that wrong? As I say I'm highly interested in why you believe in karma. All questioning that I have is entirely out of respect for you. I also don't mean to annoy you.
    I believe the rapist is causing pain and suffering and this will effect them and the person and the ripples of this will go on and on and the person will have to know this and feel it at some point.

    It appears that this is a form of moral utilitarianism. Pain and pleasure are our two masters in this world. What is good is to utilise as much pleasure for as many people as possible. What is bad is there being as much pain for as many people as possible.

    Is this how you'd think?


  • #65
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    Jakkass wrote: »
    OutlawPete: I'm just questioning, is that wrong? As I say I'm highly interested in why you believe in karma. All questioning that I have is entirely out of respect for you. I also don't mean to annoy you.

    You don't need to "question" anybody.

    Just discuss back and forth and I think you'll find you'll get more replies on the thread.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    It appears that this is a form of moral utilitarianism. Pain and pleasure are our two masters in this world. What is good is to utilise as much pleasure for as many people as possible. What is bad is there being as much pain for as many people as possible. Is this how you'd think?

    No.

    You seem to think that people must have hard and fast rules about what they feel the meaning of life is and what they feel might happen when we die.

    I don't think people should think like that and quite frankly, I wouldn't trust anyone in this world who's beliefs were set in stone.

    We are built on shifting sands and the best someone can do is have an idea of what it is all about.


  • #66
    Agricola
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,547 ✭✭✭Agricola


    No fate but what we make.

    Life is a roll of the dice. The only thing is that we have some influence on what side the dice will fall through our actions. We can work hard to improve our lives and be successful then die old and happy. The flip side of that is we can improve our lives, be successful and get hit by a bus, or drown in a boating accident aged 40. (I have first hand experience of this)

    Just make the best of it while you can and hope your luck doesnt run out early is my motto!

    Id put karma in the same box as religion personally. Do i believe Hitler and Stalin are paying the price for the lives they led? No.
    Do i believe that some karmic good has come of their actions, which balance out what they did? Well i suppose the EU and the closer relations between the nations involved in WW2 would be a good outcome but I wouldnt put it down to a religious concept like karma.


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  • #67
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    You don't need to "question" anybody.

    Just discuss back and forth and I think you'll find you'll get more replies on the thread.

    Are you telling me it's not acceptable to ask questions about why you believe in karma? As I say, I'm hugely interested, and I wasn't expecting you to be so picky about it. As I say, it was intended out of respect.
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    You seem to think that people must have hard and fast rules about what they feel the meaning of life is and what they feel might happen when we die.

    I don't really, I'm just trying to find out where you're coming from.
    OutlawPete wrote: »
    I don't think people should think like that and quite frankly, I wouldn't trust anyone in this world who's beliefs were set in stone.

    I don't find people reliable when they can't tell me why they think that something is true.


  • #68
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Are you telling me it's not acceptable to ask questions about why you believe in karma?

    I feel like I am in a court of law talking to you. You are very intense, chill for ffs.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't find people reliable when they can't tell me why they think that something is true.

    Sometimes people DON'T know why they think something. They just FEEL it to be true.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    As I say, I'm hugely interested, and I wasn't expecting you to be so picky about it. As I say, it was intended out of respect.

    And I have went into great detail about what I believe and don't believe and yet here you say I'm being picking because you label contributions to the thread "Illogical", "Contradicting" and "Nonsense".

    I said all I have to say, all the best.


  • #69
    Kiera
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,130 ✭✭✭✭Kiera


    No
    You two have ruined this thread :(


  • #70
    Hrududu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,711 ✭✭✭Hrududu


    +1


  • #71
    neil_hosey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭neil_hosey


    Kiera wrote: »
    You two have ruined this thread :(

    whats the difference between a hosted moderator and a normal moderator..

    is it like a special guest referee type job?

    off topic im gone ZOOOOM!


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  • #72
    Kiera
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,130 ✭✭✭✭Kiera


    No
    neil_hosey wrote: »
    whats the difference between a hosted moderator and a normal moderator..

    is it like a special guest referee type job?

    off topic im gone ZOOOOM!
    I'm "special" ;)


  • #73
    neil_hosey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭neil_hosey


    Kiera wrote: »
    I'm "special" ;)

    you said it :)


  • #74
    Davidius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭Davidius


    I remember I was talking about this in school once. The discussion of whether destiny exists came up and one of the arguments came down to whether true randomness existed at an atomic or sub-atomic level.

    If such a randomness didn't exist we argued that the interactions between all matter was already determined and thus destiny existed. Of course, this was a big load o' bollox we were talking at the time, and randomness apparently does exist in the eyes of most physicists. We can just explain that away with magical extradimensional energy. :cool:


  • #75
    jif
    Closed Accounts Posts: 340 ✭✭jif


    Only when your talking about something retrospectively as in it happened there's nothing you can do to undo it so complaining/stressing/getting angry about it isnt going to change it, so I then believe ok it happened move on, the same way time does.


  • #76
    thatsa spicy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭thatsa spicy


    No
    Yes, I believe in blind casual determinism (not fatalism).

    I don't believe that we or any other evolved life-form have true free will.

    I believe that our lives can only ever turnout in one way but, because it really is impossible to predict the future accurately, for all practical purposes we can pretend that we have free will.
    Two reasons for this are
    a) I believe our mental health is compromised if we regularly acknowledge that we don't have free will
    b) In order to prevent people for commiting crime we have to threaten punishment...to do this we have to be able to hold the criminal completely responsible for their actions.....the thing is, it works out for us all because the type of people who engage in crime won't be clever enough to know that they are biological robots who's actions and thoughts couldn't have occured otherwise...so we can prosecute them for our benefit and say "ohhh, you shouldn't have done that!!"


    As regards fate, therefor, I believe that we really are only going in one direction in time but, seeing as we are all in the same boat, if we just ignore this fact and carry on as normal, things balance out and we get to do what we naturally want/ occurs naturally to us.

    Also; I have noticed that the people I know who say they don't believe in fate, say this because they dont want to believe in it. This doesn't make it true. Smilarly, me wanting it to be the case wouldn't neccesitate it being true either.


  • #77
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    I used be unsure of whether I believed or not, but the more I thought about fate the less it made any sense to me. I don't think anyone is "destined" for anything.


  • #78
    slipss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭slipss


    I'm with John Conner on this one. Don't believe in fate or absolute destiny and to be honest I don't believe that the vast majority of people that profess a belief in fate really believe in it either. One of them said it didn't he: "I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road." Having said that I understand why people believe in it, personally I would like to believe that the universe had some purpose for me, that it was important that I existed, just like I'd like to believe that when I died I'd go to a wonderful place to live in bliss for eternity with all the friends and family I've lost over the years. But I feel to just give myself over to a comfortable illusion would be a cop out on my part. So while I'll never come out and say that I know for an indisputable fact that there is no force of destiny existant in the universe, I have never seen anything that would suggest otherwise.


  • #79
    thatsa spicy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭thatsa spicy


    No
    slipss wrote: »
    I'm with John Conner on this one. Don't believe in fate or absolute destiny and to be honest I don't believe that the vast majority of people that profess a belief in fate really believe in it either. One of them said it didn't he: "I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."

    Because they're predestined to not want to die and to be alert to oncoming cars! That's fatalism you're talking about...where a human has a thought about some event in the future and thinks that no matter what casual chain of events happens betweens now and then, the event will eventually occur.


  • #80
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Post-modernism at work surely?

    Yeah, that's right. I don't actually think that - it's not a conclusion I have always had due to my brains' hard-wiring, it's all based around a post-war philosophical movement. :confused: Anyway, you'd probably have to label it post-postmodernism, pseudomodernism, or something, these days. :P
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I never said for me. I said, just because something is harsh doesn't mean it is less valid. I never included the clause "to me".

    A harsh reality makes fate/destiny no more valid either, or likely, or visible. Just the opposite imo. That anyone would create a destiny that is no less harsh and no more brilliant than if they didn't exist at all and we were all just muddling along seems to me to be completely pointless exercise.

    You ask people personal opinions on a non-verifiable issue then try to point out why their opinions are wrong or unjustified. :pac:


  • #81
    slipss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭slipss


    thatsa spicy wrote: »
    Because they're predestined to not want to die and to be alert to oncoming cars! That's fatalism you're talking about...where a human has a thought about some event in the future and thinks that no matter what casual chain of events happens betweens now and then, the event will eventually occur.

    And by casual determination what do you mean? Is it that you believe there is a certain force nudging your life in a certain direction but that it isn't necsesarily going to go the way it's nudged?


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  • #82
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No
    If I do ask questions, I ask them to find out more about the reasoning / underlying assumptions involved. I don't mean any offence by doing so.


  • #83
    MaybeLogic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    As humans we act according to the condition and influences imprinted on our minds throughout our lives.Events ,especially in early childhood through to adolescence,will shape the choices one makes and the thoughts one thinks.
    If we use the analogy of a computer,we all have the same basic hardware (the make-up of the brain) and the software is that which is inputted ,the influence of parents,experiences at school,any religious teaching,any experience really,and one will then act in accord with ones' programming,and in accord with ones' hardware, in a robotic and predetermined matter.
    Free choice ,in this instance,is a fallacy,despite what your mind is now trying to tell you.(the conscious mind,will always make up a reason as to why one commits an action as evinced by experiments on people who have had a 'corpus collostomy',severing both sides of the brain.The left hand really doesn't know what the right hand is doing).
    All this even before one gets to events outside the human perspective,such as the weather ,or that little dog at the end of the 1957 movie 'The Killing',events outside human control which also influence outcomes.


  • #84
    Dubs
    Registered Users Posts: 365 ✭✭Dubs


    Isn't there one of these scientmitifical theories that says if you could predict the exact position and velocity of every atom everywhere at a givin moment you could potentially predict the course for each atom for the rest of time? Its just imposible to try. But if the theory is true then then there is a destiny, we'll just never know what it is.

    Theres also a very good chance that I'm talking out my ass, but maybe thats my destiny :eek: How depressing that would be.


  • #85
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Dubs wrote: »
    Isn't there one of these scientmitifical theories that says if you could predict the exact position and velocity of every atom everywhere at a givin moment you could potentially predict the course for each atom for the rest of time? Its just imposible to try. But if the theory is true then then there is a destiny, we'll just never know what it is.
    If you could so predict then yes. But Heisenberg and his cat says you can't simultaneously determine position and velocity. (I think :confused:)


  • #86
    GavRedKing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,262 ✭✭✭✭GavRedKing


    No, there is nothig in your life that can be your destiny or your faith and by achieving something its down to hard work, determation, work ethic and ability to combine all these to succeed in whatever it is you try.


  • #87
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No
    Just to clarify, fate isn't the same thing as faith.

    Fate: an event (or a course of events) that will inevitably happen in the future
    faith: complete confidence in a person or plan etc; "he cherished the faith of a good woman"; "the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust"


  • #88
    thatsa spicy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭thatsa spicy


    No
    slipss wrote: »
    And by casual determination what do you mean? Is it that you believe there is a certain force nudging your life in a certain direction but that it isn't necsesarily going to go the way it's nudged?

    Casual determinism is the blind unfolding of events in the universe under what we term the laws of physics. By blind I mean that it "just happens" whether we want things to happen, whether we don't want them to happen, or whether we're not here at all. Seeing that we are composed of matter, we are subject to the laws of physics. So our lives are ultimately predetermined to go in one direction. But because its impossible to predict events in any accurate sense (ie. chaos theory) its impossible to say what you'll be doing on new years day 2020. But there is only one thing that you will be doing.

    But we have choices, you might say. In an everyday sense but not ultimately.
    If I said to you, "you're liver can't act other than the way it does...it can only process alcohol and other toxins in a deterministic process", would you believe that, or would it bother you? I doubt it would bother you! Well, the brain and the muscles work using laws which are just as deterministic as those under which the liver operates, but people don't like to think that their thoughts and actions can only occur in one way.

    Basically, what you are talking about, with the crossing the road thing, is fatalism. Fatalism is usually a cop out for people because they imply that something bad is going to happen despite all their efforts. There is no more reason to assume a bad thing will happen at this time in 10 years than there is to asume a good thing will happen, but assuring yourself that a bad thing will happen increases the odds of a bad thing happening because you're being passive about things.


  • #89
    Davidius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭Davidius


    Dubs wrote: »
    Isn't there one of these scientmitifical theories that says if you could predict the exact position and velocity of every atom everywhere at a givin moment you could potentially predict the course for each atom for the rest of time? Its just imposible to try. But if the theory is true then then there is a destiny, we'll just never know what it is.

    Theres also a very good chance that I'm talking out my ass, but maybe thats my destiny :eek: How depressing that would be.
    I'm not anywhere near a Physicist but I suppose it comes down to the nature of interactions between sub-atomic particles, whether you can quantify them and whether there exists true randomness in a system.

    As far as I know most physicists are fairly certain that randomness does exist. Others argue the existence of hidden variables, and apparently Einstein himself didn't like the lack of determinism in quantum mechanics and regarded it an incomplete.

    But I'd be lying if I told you I understood it so I could very well be talking out my arse too.


  • #90
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    If I do ask questions, I ask them to find out more about the reasoning / underlying assumptions involved. I don't mean any offence by doing so.

    I know, I was genuinely laughing when I typed that. It's just quite funny to be questioned defensively, it's like it's not so much about what I think and why but why I can't or don't think something else....we need more smilies! :)
    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    As humans we act according to the condition and influences imprinted on our minds throughout our lives.Events ,especially in early childhood through to adolescence,will shape the choices one makes and the thoughts one thinks.
    If we use the analogy of a computer,we all have the same basic hardware (the make-up of the brain) and the software is that which is inputted ,the influence of parents,experiences at school,any religious teaching,any experience really,and one will then act in accord with ones' programming,and in accord with ones' hardware, in a robotic and predetermined matter.
    Free choice ,in this instance,is a fallacy,despite what your mind is now trying to tell you.(the conscious mind,will always make up a reason as to why one commits an action as evinced by experiments on people who have had a 'corpus collostomy',severing both sides of the brain.The left hand really doesn't know what the right hand is doing).
    All this even before one gets to events outside the human perspective,such as the weather ,or that little dog at the end of the 1957 movie 'The Killing',events outside human control which also influence outcomes.

    I think I know what you mean but I would argue I have free will in terms of still having the ability to choose my actions even if my upbringing, social norms and my personality dictate I won't ever be a mass murder. It's not because I am destined to do X, Y & Z that I will be "guided" around such mishap, it's because of the choices I make. Those choices are based on all manner of worldly influences, yes.


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  • #91
    slipss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭slipss


    Does the absence of randomness equate to predetermination? Is predetermination in this sense the same as Destiny or Fate? Is destiny/fate fatilism, fatalism being what lotsaspicey described?

    (questions asked of anyone that can attempt an answer)


  • #92
    Davidius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭Davidius


    slipss wrote: »
    Does the absence of randomness equate to predetermination? Is predetermination in this sense the same as Destiny or Fate? Is destiny/fate fatilism, fatalism being what lotsaspicey described?

    (questions asked of anyone that can attempt an answer)
    Well if you knew all the variables, laws etc. and it was found that randomness did not exist then essentially everything would follow a set course and you could find out what exactly was going to happen. There'd be nothing to move it from a course that's already been set which I suppose would mean that everything's already be determined, regardless of whether there's an intelligence behind it.


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