[Article] New on the spot fines for motorists and cyclists

sceptre · 07-12-2003 3:03am #1

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-922994,00.html

GOOD NEWS for Irish motorists. Cyclists who run red traffic lights or cycle the wrong way down one-way streets are to be punished with fixed penalties.

New garda powers will also bring the long arm of the law down on cyclists who ride on footpaths and fail to use lights at night.

The Department of Transport’s plans will allow gardai to hit both cyclists and motorists with fixed penalties of at least €40 for a range of minor offences as part of a road safety drive. The crackdown on cyclists, whose anarchic road manners often infuriate car drivers, follows an increase in the number of riders killed in traffic accidents — from six in 2001 to 18 last year.

Motorists who block junctions, drive with bald tyres or broken lights, or who make illegal turns will also be fined.

[...]

cyclopath2001 · 07-12-2003 8:06pm

The slant on the story reeks of motorist propaganda.

While cyclists must obey the motoring laws, let us remember that it is unsafe speeding and manouvering by motorists that kills most cyclists. There is no evidence that any of the cyclist fatalities mentioned in the article are attributable to illegal behaviour by the victims.

It should also be noted that under peculier Irish legislation, cyclists are, in many parts of the city, obliged by law to cycle on footpaths, even when it is not safe to do so. Example: Fairview, Dublin, in-bound.

Lights - I can find no excuse for anyone not using them.

Victor · 08-12-2003 2:50pm

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/2111019?view=Eircomnet

Dangerous cyclists to be hit with on-the-spot fines
From:The Irish Independent
Monday, 8th December, 2003
Caroline Crawford

CYCLISTS who run red lights, ride on footpaths or fail to use lights at night will be hit with on-the-spot fines of at least €40.

The plans from the Department of Transport are expected to come into effect in the second half of next year when a new computer technology system is up and running.

"At the moment fixed-charge fines are only used for speeding and non-wearing of seat belts. When the whole computer system is operating, there will be 60 to 70 fixed-charge fines, which will be linked to penalty points.

"The intention is to include offences by cyclists in this as well," said a spokesperson for the Department of Transport.

It is hoped that targeting cyclists will make them more conscious of cycling safely.

The moves follow an increase in the number of cyclists who died on the roads in the last year. The annual number tripled last year. Currently, cyclists who are seen to be riding dangerously can be summonsed by gardai, just as motorists can be prosecuted through the courts.

Under the new system, cyclists and motorists will be given the opportunity to pay the fixed fine, and if they choose not to they can be brought to court.

Green Party leader Trevor Sargent said that while the move was welcome, it was an "all stick and no carrot" approach.

rubadub · 09-12-2003 1:15pm

First off I agree with most of the proposed fines, cyclists should have lights and not break red lights etc. I have recently started cycling again and can see some problems with this new proposal to fine cyclists if cycling on the footpath. On my way to work I have to cycle up a long narrow steep hill, which is a pretty busy road during the morning. At the moment I always cycle on the footpath, as do nearly all other cyclists. Since it is steep I cycle only at a fast walking pace, if even that. The footpath is narrow too so if I meet a pedestrian I stop the bike and stand as they pass. If I get off my bike to walk up the hill then either the pedestrian of myself have to walk on the road to pass. I go on the road if a bunch of pedestrians are ahead but don’t like doing so. Only a small car can pass me, no chance for a jeep or big car but sometimes they will try and I have come very close to being hit by such people. It is a busy bus route too, a bus has no chance of passing me. When the fines come in there is no way I am cycling on the footpath, that hill traffic is going to have to wait, cyclists will go in the middle of the road to stop the jeep drivers thinking they have room to pass them out. The road is the hill at kilmacud in stillorgan, are there any other places like this? Will the gardai turn a blind eye? I am not going to risk a fine, nor will I risk my safety by cycling in the rocky gutter to be passed by a speeding jeep.

Victor · 09-12-2003 2:41pm

Originally posted by rubadub
Will the gardai turn a blind eye?

I think the objective is to target dangerous cycling, not cycling on the foorpath per se - your example and for example and adult cycling with a young child would probably not be prosecuted.

Will merge this thread with the other one.

rubadub · 09-12-2003 3:26pm

i think kids are allowed cycle on the path up to the age of 12. i prefer to cycle on paths since i have nearly been knocked a few times by drivers who are simply not on the look out for cyclists. a new trend is mopeds on footpaths. i would be on the road considering to go on the path to cross at pedestrian lights, i usually dont on a busy road in case a garda is about but i see lots of mopeds doing this, even in town.

my only worry would be coming up against a garda in a bad mood who is out to get you for anything.

cheers for merging, i saw this thread after i posted

Victor · 09-12-2003 3:36pm

Originally posted by rubadub
a new trend is mopeds on footpaths.

De rigeur in Paris

Originally posted by rubadub
cheers for merging, i saw this thread after i posted

No problem.

cyclopath2001 · 10-12-2003 9:25pm

I think some points are being missed here

1: How a press release about fines for unruly motorists and cyclists is skewed by a newspaper to become a mostly a cyclist-bashing story.

2: How the story implicitly blames all cyclist victims.

Most accidents are caused by by motorists.

gurramok · 11-12-2003 1:04am

Cyclists who wobble and not travel in a straight line should be heavily fined also.

Compulsory insurance for cyclists just like motorists would be a good idea to help cyclists drive more carefully

rubadub · 11-12-2003 10:27am

Originally posted by gurramok
Cyclists who wobble and not travel in a straight line should be heavily fined also.

Compulsory insurance for cyclists just like motorists would be a good idea to help cyclists drive more carefully

i can see the gardai jumping from behind bushes with their radar wobble detectors.
50 euro fine bucko step away from your vay-hay-kall

cyclopath2001 · 12-12-2003 12:33am

Cyclists cannot travel in a straight line if they are using Dublin City Council (tm) cycle lanes. They have to dodge the potholes, broken glass and cars.

As to insurance, some cyclists are insured for 3rd party. It costs around 50 euro a year and is based on the risk. If more cyclists were insured it would probably be cheaper.

MadsL · 13-12-2003 12:47pm

Cyclists who wobble

According to Case Law - don't ask me where, Google fer it - Cyclists have successfully sued for the right to wobble.

If more cyclists were insured it would probably be cheaper.

Like car insurance!! Sadly we know this isn't the case, if insurance for cyclists was compulsory, the insurance co.s would prob charge 400 euro a year and blame 9/11, God, Bush, the dollar falling or Enron.

Victor · 13-12-2003 10:03pm

Originally posted by MadsL
According to Case Law - don't ask me where, Google fer it - Cyclists have successfully sued for the right to wobble.

The rules of the road actually say motorists should keep clear of cyclists for fear of such eventualities, gusts of wind etc. Note bicycles are essentially 2 dimension, not 3 dimension (no, a 19mm wheel is not a third dimension).

denis doyle · 08-01-2013 3:59pm

A Cara ,

I refer to Liam Collins ' article, " On your bike to all the bad manners and ignorance of the rules of the road " ( Sunday Independent , January 6 , 2013). Don't worry Liam does not live in a parallel universe , but lots of the "winged rats " seem to be feigning to , it would appear.

The Irish have been accused in the past of having a reputation for anti -intellectualism.The feigning argument being adopted by deviant Irish cyclists and motorists would rationally cause me , to possibly beg to differ the reality, indeed truth of this accusation.

what if I told you this ?; that a dangerous preponderance of drivers in 21st century modern Ireland feign not to realize that there are flashing ,resplendent lights on the sides of cars ,that indicate where you want to turn, or indeed that traffic lights and even one way streets do not exists. well at least not in the parallel universe apparently occupied by our great nations frighteningly growing number of philosophical scholarly, yet none the less scurrilous cyclists. Sadly this alarm, bell ringing , dishearteningly surreal reality is no where more evident and prominent than in the metropolis called Dublin.

Unfortunately all indicators would appear to signal in the direction of this seeming reality ,of non compliance,where by many motorists, but in particular cyclists feign to lyrically wax ,thinking man's moustache wax in one hand, Descartes' Discourse on the Method and Principles of Philosophy in the other. Adopting the wax argument perhaps ?

The method in these deviant cyclists madness is firmly rooted in hyperbolical /metaphysical doubt. Indeed speaking of hyperbole and madness in methodology ,these naughty cyclists manage to matrix/avoid the argument that they are simply breaking the law, by seemingly ignoring the existence of traffic lights. Their counter argument it would appear is that of methodological skepticism. Seemingly choosing to question or indeed selectively ignore the existence of the outside world , mainly in the form of traffic lights and any number of other road signs.

But let's be reasonable for a nano second about the reality of this dangerous deviant behaviour . Because surely reason is the only reliable method of attaining knowledge.

Quality of reasoning depends on one's knowledge. A well informed mind will be more capable of making good choices.This you might agree is the perfect argument for insisting that all road users , including cyclists or "winged rats if you will, should acquire the requisite knowledge to allow them to safely travel upon our public high ways. A perfect way of imparting said knowledge is a road safety test, covering of course all the basic rules of the road, such as traffic lights and the likes.

Incorporated into this could be a driving /cycling licence , or at least the mandatory carrying of some form of I.D. , having among its many benefits the possibility for An Garda Siochana to firstly, readily identify and subsequently fine deviant cyclists for flagrant breaches of the rules as laid out in the numerous road traffic acts of our fine state since 1933 up to and including that of 2010.

But hark what is that I hear ? Me thinks it may be the sad soulful sound of Rene Descartes the father of modern philosophy and Erskine H Childers Ireland's first minister for transport ,rolling in their respective graves

Just a fleeting after thought , well question ? why do cyclists have hands ? is it to give the bird to motorists or to aid them in giving the appropriate hand signals ?

Perhaps along with his proposed fixed penalties for unruly cyclists the transport minister could introduce a new road tax for cyclists to help pay for all the, in a lot of cases unused cycle lanes along with there specially sequenced traffic lights for cyclists ,which they continue to feign don't exist. Yeah !!! That's the answer . Leaving just the most fundamental of questions: How do we know what we know? How should we live our lives? What am I?Does God exists ?

To all the bad drivers /cyclists out there, for God sake do the right thing or you may meet your maker and discover the answer to the meaning of life as we know it , shall we say prematurely.Descartes' Moral Philosophy had its roots firmly imbedded in metaphysics , thankfully a bit of good old courtesy and cop on are all that are needed and not a degree in metaphysics or any degree of intellectualism for that matter.

Go n -éirí an bothar leat,

corktina · 08-01-2013 4:08pm

more rules that wont be enforced, waste of time

RainyDay · 08-01-2013 4:15pm

gurramok wrote: »

Compulsory insurance for cyclists just like motorists would be a good idea to help cyclists drive more carefully

It would be a good idea if you want to reduce the number of cyclists on the road, and get many cyclists to leave their bikes at home and go back to using their cars. Be careful what you wish for. Do you want MORE cars holding you up in traffic, or do you want bikes that you'll be able to pass safely within 5 or 10 seconds?

Cookie_Monster · 08-01-2013 10:19pm

Victor wrote: »

Note bicycles are essentially 2 dimension, not 3 dimension (no, a 19mm wheel is not a third dimension).

your shoulders are only 19mm wide too are they?

and yes a 19mm wide wheel is clearly a third dimentsion, not to mention most of the frame being wide, the handle bars being much wider, you legs, shoulder and possibly gut (;)) all being wider again. You didn't really think before posting that one eh? :rolleyes:

I think the objective is to target dangerous cycling, not cycling on the foorpath per se

cycling on the footpath IS dangerous cycling

monkeypants · 08-01-2013 11:16pm

Is this really a nine year old thread and is this a record?

If it is, is shows how quickly this legislation has progressed.

As for Denis' post: WTF?

monument · 09-01-2013 12:40am

monkeypants wrote: »

Is this really a nine year old thread and is this a record?

If it is, is shows how quickly this legislation has progressed.

As for Denis' post: WTF?

Tempted to lock it, but the proposals to have on-the-spot fines are back on the table.

The department had claimed it was impossible, but they have backtracked in the last few weeks.

hognef · 09-01-2013 12:59am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

cycling on the footpath IS dangerous cycling

Not if the footpath is otherwise empty.

Cookie_Monster · 09-01-2013 1:24am

hognef wrote: »

Not if the footpath is otherwise empty.

is it ok to drive on the footpath if it's empty?

hognef · 09-01-2013 1:43am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

is it ok to drive on the footpath if it's empty?

Is a car the same as a bike?

Cookie_Monster · 09-01-2013 1:51am

hognef wrote: »

Is a car the same as a bike?

its a vehicle and subject to the rules of the road if that's what you mean, so in the broad sense yes it is. Now obviously there are substantial differences but it falls into the same category for sure.

hognef · 09-01-2013 8:57am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

its a vehicle and subject to the rules of the road if that's what you mean, so in the broad sense yes it is. Now obviously there are substantial differences but it falls into the same category for sure.

Yes. They're both vehicles. But that doesn't mean that, if one is dangerous, then the other is too.

Why exactly is a bike on an otherwise empty footpath dangerous?

Cookie_Monster · 10-01-2013 4:46am

hognef wrote: »

Why exactly is a bike on an otherwise empty footpath dangerous?

because you are still likely to be travelling too fast to avoid a crash if a pedestrian steps out of a driveway or a dog wander out from behind a push or a kid runs out chasing a ball etc etc

The law is there for a reason, not just to annoy you.

galwaycyclist · 10-01-2013 4:26pm

hognef wrote: »

Yes. They're both vehicles. But that doesn't mean that, if one is dangerous, then the other is too.

Why exactly is a bike on an otherwise empty footpath dangerous?

One of the main reasons not to cycle on footpaths is because it makes you more likely to collide with motor vehicles at every junction. In addition there are more junctions as every driveway and property entrance is now a junction.

Most bike/motor vehicles already happen at junctions.

The risk really increases if you cycle on a footpath on the wrong side of the road against the normal flow of traffic. Entering motorists are simply not attuned to looking in the wrong place for moving cyclists.

AngryLips · 10-01-2013 6:19pm

Victor wrote: »

The rules of the road actually say motorists should keep clear of cyclists for fear of such eventualities, gusts of wind etc. Note bicycles are essentially 2 dimension, not 3 dimension (no, a 19mm wheel is not a third dimension).

In the UK the rules of the road state that motorists should afford the same clearance to cyclists as they do other road vehecles when overtaking etc. I don't think this is the case here but, where there is an absence of cycle lanes, it should be. In fact, I often cycle occupying the space of an entire lane and only pull in when I become aware of a car coming up behind me. I find this approach safer than being overtaken in the same lane without prior awareness that it's happening.

Also, I hope the rules include fines for motorists who do not yield to cyclists in cycle lanes. This is one of my biggest annoyances because often, cars will veer into cycle lanes or take a left-turn across a cycle lane without giving any priority to anyone using the cycle lane.

Ultimately, if these rules of the road are enforced as much as some of the other rules of the road then no one has anything to worry about, move along now.

Chris_5339762 · 10-01-2013 7:12pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Also, I hope the rules include fines for motorists who do not yield to cyclists in cycle lanes. This is one of my biggest annoyances because often, cars will veer into cycle lanes or take a left-turn across a cycle lane without giving any priority to anyone using the cycle lane.

I will say that this is a good idea, but I have quite often been waved out of a driveway (say) by a car/bus, only to have to slam on the brakes because a bike comes haring up the side. Has anyone on here EVER seen a cyclist give way to a car?

If cyclists want to be treated like the rest of the road users then it has to go 50/50.

RainyDay · 10-01-2013 8:28pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I will say that this is a good idea, but I have quite often been waved out of a driveway (say) by a car/bus, only to have to slam on the brakes because a bike comes haring up the side. Has anyone on here EVER seen a cyclist give way to a car?

If cyclists want to be treated like the rest of the road users then it has to go 50/50.

So you pull out of a driveway onto a main road without checking for traffic? Nice. Traffic on the main road has priority - traffic joining the main road is supposed to check for traffic before joining. It doesn't matter who waved you out - you're supposed to look for traffic. Bikes are traffic.

Cookie_Monster · 10-01-2013 8:54pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Has anyone on here EVER seen a cyclist give way to a car?

this may shock you to your core but I always give way to other traffic when I am required to while cycling. :eek::eek::eek:

However in your example I would not because I have no reason too. The bus /car waving you out has no right to do so and you still need to check everything is clear, if you are slamming on the brakes you are clearly not paying enough attention to the road to notice the bike sooner.

[Article] New on the spot fines for motorists and cyclists

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