Luas Line BX sent back to the drawing board

wwhyte · 14-12-2006 11:33am

Metrobest wrote:

Dublin Bus double deckers are an eyesore in our city - they clog up roadspace, they hog pavements, they come within inches of pedestrians as they navigate through Dublin's web of tiny streets.

I love the double deckers! Nothing better than sitting at the front up top watching everything.

markpb · 14-12-2006 11:39am

Metrobest wrote:

Multiple routes. (eg. the 15s, 46, etc) could terminate at the Green for connections to luas, metro and interconnector.

That's fine long term thinking but there'll be no metro at the green for five to six years. What do the millions of DB passengers do between now and then if the road is (effectively) closed to buses? Not rhetoric, give me an actual solution if you have one?

Dublin Bus double deckers are an eyesore in our city - they clog up roadspace, they hog pavements, they come within inches of pedestrians as they navigate through Dublin's web of tiny streets.

I totally share your sentiments on deckers but they're a necessary evil for the meanwhile. Too high a percentage of the commuters in Dublin are carried by bus for single deckers to be effective and the streets are (unfortunately) not suitable for bendis.

In a few years when the majority of people are moved by train, I think a lot of the deckers can be phased out. If nothing else, dwell time will drop when this happens.

The real problem is that the RPA and DB seem to be fighting in public instead of sitting down together (a year ago) and trying to agree on a route for that Luas that they can both agree on. Why does public transport companies in Ireland constantly see themselves in competition with each other?

aliveandkicking · 14-12-2006 11:58am

http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/November%202005%20-%20Luas%20Line%20BX.pdf

According to an article I read a couple of weeks ago (can't remember where exactly) the RPA are now examining Route B and a modified Route C via Hawkins Street. Either way it's going to be Hawkins Street - Marlborough Street on a new bridge over the Liffey.

Slice · 14-12-2006 12:22pm

Spacetweek: If taking space away from DB is such an issue, I can't understand why they don't just have shared running... how often does a bus pass on Dawson St? Every 2 or 3 minutes?

I think the issue is mostly to do with College Green as the buses travel round to Nassau Street - I don't know about statistics but it feels like half of all traffic on that stretch consists of buses, and they are definitely more often than 2-3 minutes at certain times.

Metrobest I don't think I know of any city that gets by without buses. I think what makes buses in Dublin an eyesore is the fact that most of them terminate in the city centre. They then just sit around for ages, if they were simply travelling through you'd remove the wall of buses along such places as the Quays and Parnell Square.

Metrobest: Dublin bus saying it must run buses down Dawson and Nassau is just another example of why this semi state monopoly needs to be seriously privatised and introduced to the real world. There are solutions that can accomodate luas and buses, Dublin Bus must come up with them and stop playing a victim's card.

The real world? DB serves greater parts of the city and more people (most of who will probably never benefit from a Luas) so how is it unreal for them to expect priority?

It doesn't make sense, and it makes less sense when you consider how the route the RPA want is the same route that will be served by Metro North. The RPA's preferred route was originally conceived at a time before anyone was even thinking of a Metro for Dublin and now that we are wouldn't it make more sense to connect the two Luas lines in such a way that opens up other parts of the city centre to a rail link...

bk · 14-12-2006 1:20pm

Slice wrote:

Metrobest I don't think I know of any city that gets by without buses. I think what makes buses in Dublin an eyesore is the fact that most of them terminate in the city centre. They then just sit around for ages, if they were simply travelling through you'd remove the wall of buses along such places as the Quays and Parnell Square.

In Prague, all cars and buses (traffic) are banned from the city centre. The city centre is served by a large number of tram and metro lines. Outside the city centre there are bus stations at the tram and metro lines to take people to areas not served by tram or metro.

It works very well, Prague is a beautiful city and a pleasure to walk around with no traffic.

I hope the same eventually develops in Dublin, I hope buses are eventually banned from at least between Stephens Green and Parnell St. and maybe only light imp and single decker buses allowed between the canals. Have the big double deckers taking people further afield operate from Metro and bus stations outside the canals.

I suppose to make all this happen, we need to make sure the M50 upgrade is successful and create the Eastern Bypass (also moving the port and opening the port tunnel up to general traffic). That way you could pretty much ban all traffic between Stephens Green and Parnell St.

Of course this would unlikely happen as it would require far too much foresight, detailed planning and the likes of the RPA and DB to stop squabbling and work together, so very unlikely. Sometimes I think we need a good dictator (most of Pragues excellent infrastructure was built under Russian rule).

Slice · 14-12-2006 3:31pm

This worked in Prague but not in Newcastle,
See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_Metro

Wikipedia: Much was made of the Metro's interchange stations such as Four Lane Ends and Regent Centre, which combined a large parking facility with a bus hub and Metro station; this distinction is no longer emphasized. Some passengers complained that the Metro integration was pursued overzealously, and for example, bus passengers to Newcastle would be forced to change to the Metro in Gateshead for a short trip, rather than have the bus route continue for a short distance further into Newcastle

Something tells me to do so in Dublin we'd get a result closer to Newcastle than Prague; it's overly optimistic for most cities hence it's not commonly done.

bk: I hope buses are eventually banned from at least between Stephens Green and Parnell St.

I would like to see fewer cars and more space given over to pedestrians in the city centre - I think the city centre would be a much more pleasant place if this happened and bus routes terminated away from the centre where they won't stand stationary for great lengths of time occupying large stretch of roads unnecessarily.

bk · 14-12-2006 4:02pm

Slice, obviously I'm not suggesting that this would happen over night, rather gradually.

First by maybe banning cars * and lorries, leaving only buses and Taxi's. Then gradually reducing the number of buses where it makes sense.

* Obviously you can only ban the cars when good alternative ways around the City exist, not the current M50 madness.

Metrobest · 15-12-2006 12:35pm

markpb wrote:

That's fine long term thinking but there'll be no metro at the green for five to six years. What do the millions of DB passengers do between now and then if the road is (effectively) closed to buses? Not rhetoric, give me an actual solution if you have one??

Whatever happens about luas, metro is going to seriously disrupt current bus routes in Dublin and will force an overhaul of routes, which is long overdue. If it were proactive, Dublin Bus would be already changing routes away from O'Connell Street and College Green; these areas are due for lots of disruption for several years while the metro is built.

If putting in a few new slabs on O'Connell St delayed buses by hideous amounts of time, imagine what will happen when a new tram line goes in and all sorts of holes are being dug in the ground to construct a train station beneath the bridge.

Right now, many routes could be diverted away from Nassau Street via Kevin Street, Nicholas St and either Dame Street or the newly enhanced Quays post port tunnel. Dublin Bus has a smorgasbord of route options available to it but it just couldn't be bothered trying something new.

Resistance to change is endemic across that company.

At night, when tram frequencies are lower, Buses could run along tram tracks and their departure times show up on the electronic displays at tram stops. This would give many bus passengers a tram quality service, alongside a more reliable service during the peak as buses would not be congested along streets unable to cope with them.

Metrobest · 15-12-2006 12:42pm

bk wrote:

I hope the same eventually develops in Dublin, I hope buses are eventually banned from at least between Stephens Green and Parnell St. and maybe only light imp and single decker buses allowed between the canals. Have the big double deckers taking people further afield operate from Metro and bus stations outside the canals. ).

Yes, a few "green" buses running along the corridor would be a nice feature, but not the hundreds of double deckers which are noisy, polluting and uncomfortable to stand in.

Look at Westmoreland Street in rush hour and it's buses that are the predominant cause of congestion, not cars. Not only that, the scale and intensity of the congestion is totally inappropriate for Dublin's size and population.

The only solution is more efficient modes like luas, to take buses out of our finest city spaces, breathing new life into them.

markpb · 15-12-2006 1:28pm

Metrobest wrote:

Look at Westmoreland Street in rush hour and it's buses that are the predominant cause of congestion, not cars. Not only that, the scale and intensity of the congestion is totally inappropriate for Dublin's size and population.

The problem with Westmoreland St and O'Connel Street and a whole host of other streets is that Dublin Bus are treating them as city centre bus depots, which they're clearly not. The city council made no provision for any real bus depot so they pile up, one behind another on the side of the road, passengers loading willy nilly all over the place and yes, they do cause congestion of their own.

Don't think this is entirely DBs fault though. There aren't enough train lines to service the city, there aren't enough bus priority measures in the city centre to make for efficient bus movement and there's no decent depot. I can't see the joke on Abbey st making much of a difference but I'll wait and see.

John R · 16-12-2006 7:58am

Metrobest wrote:

I think Luas down Dawson Street would be a blessing in disguise as it would make southside routes more reliable.

No. It would just make them less useful, leaving huge numbers of people a long walk or a futile attempt to squeeze on to already overcrowded trams.

It would make already slow commutes for the majority of people without any access to Luas or Metro even slower but why worry about the actual needs of people in the city it is much more important to push through your tram=good bus=bad ideology.

Metrobest wrote:

Multiple routes. (eg. the 15s, 46, etc) could terminate at the Green for connections to luas, metro and interconnector. Passengers changing onto any of these modes, under integrated ticketing, reach their destination far sooner than if they sit on a horrible bus, stuck in traffic.

Yes, that is what they all want. To be turfed off their "horrible" bus where they have a seat so they can wait again in the weather to jostle on board a tram crammed full of other commuters and stand for the rest of their commute.

You complain about buses being an eysore but want to turn Stephen's Green into one massive bus park.

Metrobest wrote:

Dublin Bus double deckers are an eyesore in our city

If only all our streets had trams running on them. How much better they would look with a maze of overhead wires and pylons. :rolleyes:

Metrobest wrote:

Dublin bus saying it must run buses down Dawson and Nassau is just another example of why this semi state monopoly needs to be seriously privatised and introduced to the real world. There are solutions that can accomodate luas and buses, Dublin Bus must come up with them and stop playing a victim's card.

So you think private operators will not want to run services to the

Metrobest wrote:

We heard the same dire predictions about the bus routes down Harcourt Street and look what actually happened when Dublin Bus's back was up against the wall. Forced into a corner, it diverted buses round by the Concert Hall and now those routes are running more efficiently than they ever did.

Only after the traffic flow on the Green was reversed and extra bus priority measures were put in place. Hatch Street is still a bottleneck, all it takes is one badly parked car or truck and it grinds to a halt.

Metrobest wrote:

An added bonus being that Harcourt Street is no longer gridlocked with those awful double deckers, a style of bus which hardly any other world city uses.

So now it is the style of bus that you object to? LMFAO You really will come ot with the most ridiculous nonsense to justify your arguement.

John R · 16-12-2006 8:19am

Metrobest wrote:

Whatever happens about luas, metro is going to seriously disrupt current bus routes in Dublin and will force an overhaul of routes, which is long overdue. If it were proactive, Dublin Bus would be already changing routes away from O'Connell Street and College Green; these areas are due for lots of disruption for several years while the metro is built.

You do realise that it is going to be tunneled, there will be disruption at the stations and works access points but unless the project is badly mishandled the effects on city traffic should be minimised. Lots of much bigger sub surface projects have been completed while keeping roadways above open.

Metrobest wrote:

If putting in a few new slabs on O'Connell St

Well done. That's a very accurate description of the works on O'Connell Street over the last few years. :rolleyes:

Metrobest wrote:

Right now, many routes could be diverted away from Nassau Street via Kevin Street, Nicholas St and either Dame Street or the newly enhanced Quays post port tunnel. Dublin Bus has a smorgasbord of route options available to it but it just couldn't be bothered trying something new.

Yes, stupid them. Why can't they divert some of the most heavily used routes down some of the most congested streets in the opposite direction to where people want to go. :rolleyes:

Metrobest wrote:

At night, when tram frequencies are lower, Buses could run along tram tracks and their departure times show up on the electronic displays at tram stops. This would give many bus passengers a tram quality service, alongside a more reliable service during the peak as buses would not be congested along streets unable to cope with them.

That is such contradictory rubbish that it is not worth responding to.

John R · 16-12-2006 8:39am

Metrobest wrote:

Look at Westmoreland Street in rush hour and it's buses that are the predominant cause of congestion, not cars.

Not correct. The cause of congestion in that location is the poorly managed traffic on the exits from Westmoreland Street.

Aston Quay is constantly backed up and the pedestrian traffic crossing it makes left turns slow and hazardous. The light sequence on OCB causes traffic to back up in the right turn lanes for Eden Quay for most of the green sequence from Westmoreland St. Both of these stop proper access across the bridge even when the path is clear.

Metrobest wrote:

Not only that, the scale and intensity of the congestion is totally inappropriate for Dublin's size and population.

Does that actually mean ANYTHING? Is there a scale of conngestion that IS appropriate for Dublin's size and population?

Metrobest wrote:

The only solution is more efficient modes like luas, to take buses out of our finest city spaces, breathing new life into them.

The only solution is inclusive transport solutions that give everybody real alternatives to the private car. That means giving proper access to those who do not live in the catchment areas for rail and light rail services. That group by the way is a large majority of Greater Dublin residents and will be for the forseeable future.

Propellerhead · 16-12-2006 1:26pm

That is a valid point but I believe that removing road space for public transport is an inferior option to planning proper dedicated public transport corridors exclusively for the use of, and in order of being able to move numbers, trains, trams and buses. All have their part to play but I am convinced that our piecemeal approach to transport infrastructure and stupidity like Dublin Bus and the RPA pulling in two different directions over linking two tramlines that should never have been separated in the first place. We will be condemned by future generations for our lack of vision if we don't get things right and soon before the petrol and diesel supplies on which we are arguably the most dependent per capita in Europe become critical.

Dublin is possibly the textbook example of procrastination and attempted cheap solutions not at all solving the fundamental problem of land (mis)use and coherent planning. We build a motorway bypass around the city, zone its immediate area for business use and then wonder why the damn thing is snarled up for so much of the day.

The original DART proposals would have delivered a decent fixed track and busway infrastructure twenty five years ago if our public administrators had any brains or were more concerned with the well being of the city than by pulling strokes.

The most blatantly stupid action done years ago was the rezoning of significant portions of the proposed (DART) busway from Mount Argus to Tallaght. A housing estate was built in Kimmage right in the path of the busway. The busway with proper priority for buses could have been the single most useful piece of transport infrastructure in the city and could easily have been upgraded to combined tram and bus running, providing a shorter route than the circuitious route Luas takes now, itself a product of land being kept for a DART line between Cherry Orchard, the Red Cow and Tallaght.

Of course, long fingering by both FF and FG lead governments lead to that mess in the first place, with Garret dithering over the DART, admitting at the official opening of it that he would never have sanctioned it, and then Fianna Fail pulling stroke politics by killing the Dublin Transport Authority and then ruling out DART.

Someone once said to me that Luas etc were delayed for so long because it was hard for certain people to figure out how to soak money from it. Will Ireland in the late twentieth and early twentyfirst century go down in posterity as the country of private affluence and public squalor? It is our choice.

bk · 16-12-2006 8:33pm

John R wrote:

If only all our streets had trams running on them. How much better they would look with a maze of overhead wires and pylons. :rolleyes:

Please, buy a cheap air ticket to Prague and be prepared for just how pleasant it is.

John R · 17-12-2006 2:36am

bk wrote:

Please, buy a cheap air ticket to Prague and be prepared for just how pleasant it is.

Been there before but if you are offering to fund a repeat trip for "fact-finding" than I am only too happy to go back.

Removing private vehicles from Dublin streets to the same extent as in Prague would achieve a similar level of pleasantness. The next generation of city bus builds is going to see a huge jump in technology, hybrid power and 100% clean hydrogen fuel cell buses are already being tested and I am certain that within 10 years will be replacing the current all diesel fleets en masse.

It only seems as though the streets are clogged with buses because they get stuck in traffic and make very slow progress through the city centre, if you actually count the throughput on heavily used but uncongested streets it is immediately obvious that bus traffic alone is not a huge burden on the city.

I am not suggesting that buses are a better solution than trams for city transport, I was rebutting Metrobeast's "buses are an eysore" arguement. Ask any photographer what is worse when trying to take a picture of an historic building or an event and they would always point to the electric wires not passing traffic.

IF Dublin had a tram network that came close to matching Prague (35 tram lines running to 560 kilometres with over 900 trams) then there would most certainly be a strong case for running most or all bus routes only to the edges of the city.

Oh and as well as the extensive tram network and a few commuter railways they also have more buses than Dublin.

At present and in the medium-long term (depending on politics) we will be nowhere near that stage in developing a comprehensive tram and rail network and until we are then it is ESSENTIAL that the large number of commuters who have no PT alternative to bus travel are properly accomodated and given equal priority which means proper direct links to the city centre.

Metrobest · 17-12-2006 10:28am

Let me try and deal with John R's points as briefly as I can.

I don't have an anti-bus ideology. I have a pro- "good taste" ideology. The double deckers that noisily congest the streets of central Dublin are completely inappropriate for their surroundings and look awful. The fact that you love them speaks volumes.

We've all experienced the horrible feeling as one of those huge double deckers passes within inches of your face and lurches around a corner on a tiny city street. Why are we still in the mindset of allowing these vile double deckers onto streets for which they are inappropriate? Double deckers are also antisocial as skangers like to congregate at the the back, away from Mr Driver's prying eyes!

If cities like New York, Sydney, Paris and Amsterdam can get away with single deckers, why can't Dublin?

As for luas, most people think it looks great. Not only does it look modern and sleek, it blends in with the Georgian architecture and its overhead wires are unobtrusive. Never forget, Dublin used to be full of tram lines, not double deckers!

I'm quite happy to have a limited amount of buses at points in the city centre where there won't be bus or rail - Kevin Street and Camden Street being key examples. And here's where buses can be diverted away from key city centre spaces where metro and luas can move people more efficiently, pleasantly and attractively.

As for metro construction and traffic disruption, I've seen enough metro station construction sites in cities around the world to know that they do cause serious disruption; they close off streets, they barricade off sections of public spaces. It's all neccessary but it is disruptive and you're fooling yourself if you think the lower half of O'Connell St isn't going to spend some time looking like a gravel pit. And Dublin Bus is fooling itself if it thinks that the current route structure in the city centre can continue to function as we know it.

Dublin Bus is going to have to start rerouting buses away from the O'Connell-Nassau axis very soon and that's going to be neccessary whatever happens with the luas link up.

Finally, though you mock my suggestion of running buses along the tram line in off peak periods, it makes perfect sense because there's larger gaps between trams and buses can fill them. Also, buses are running to lower frequencies and won't disrupt trams. This happens at nighttime in Amsterdam with buses running along tram tracks and departure times displayed on the VDU. And people love it.

Aquavid · 17-12-2006 7:01pm

Metrobest wrote:

Never forget, Dublin used to be full of tram lines, not double deckers!

. . and those trams were all (with the solitary exception of the line that passed under the bath Road railway bridge) DOUBLE-DECKERS !!!!!

Dublin Bus did move away from double-deckers for a period in the early to mid 90s, and started converting routes wholesale to large-scale single-deck operation.

Bitterly resented by passengers, only 40 of whom could now get a seat on the number 39 or 78A, rather than 76 (seats).

In recent years, Dublin Bus has been actively replacing single-deckers with double-decks as they become due for replacement - given that the total number of buses in the fleet is restricted so tightly by government (fleet size can only increase with permission, as per the 100 increase this year) this was their only way of increasing capacity while the Minister was blocking their requests.

Dublin and London are big fans of the double-decker concept, New York (as you pointed out) is not. I've endured long, crushed, standing rides on the New York system, and know which mode I prefer!

Also, a sea change is starting in the North American market - double-deckers, previously only a sightseeing curiosity are now beginning to take off on city and commuter services, with Alexander Dennis (one manufacturer) estimating that several hundred will be ordered over the coming months.

Victoria BC is a recent convert, as is Vegas.

Aquavid

murphaph · 18-12-2006 12:46am

Double deckers are fine for Dublin. If they're good enough for the two largest cities in Europe then they're good enough for me! Singapore and HK also use them without issue.

Victor · 19-12-2006 9:29am

Just before you get rid of all the buses from St. Stephen's Green, realise that they have to go somewhere.

7B - 5
7D - 1
10/10A - 111
11/A - 55
11B - 26
14 - 34
14A - 32
15 - 41
15A - 54
15B - 49
15C - 21
15E - 1
15F - 1
15X - 1
20B - 14 (some)
25X - 13
27C - 2
27X - 5
32X - 3
37X - 3
39B - 4
39X - 5
41X - 6
44/C - 36 (most)
44B - 2 (some)
46A - 146
46B - 26 (most)
46C - 8
46D - 1
46E - 1
46X - 1
48A - 30
49X - 1
50X - 1
51D - 4
51X - 2
58C - 1
58X - 1
65X - 1
66D - 1
66X - 8
67X - 3
70X - 2
77X - 2
84X - 10
92 - 42
116 - 5
117 - 1
118 - 2
127 - 3
129 - 1
145 - 77
172 - 9
746 - 14
Total one way - 929

Aircoach - 78? (possibly a lot higher)
Coaches
Tour buses

So, by my calculations, that probably more than 100,000 people per day a lot more than Luas carries.

strassenwolf · 19-12-2006 10:37am

Hey Victor - you forgot the 39B:D

But the 18?

Victor · 19-12-2006 10:43am

strassenwolf wrote:

But the 18?

What 18?

strassenwolf · 19-12-2006 12:00pm

Victor wrote:

Total one way - 928

Aircoach - 78? (possibly a lot higher)
Coaches
Tour buses

So, by my calculations, that probably more than 100,000 people per day a lot more than Luas carries.

That doesn't even tell the full story. Each weekday, there are over 4,750 bus services (in total, i.e., both directions) which pass through the gap at TCD and Bank of Ireland in College Green. They would also be affected in some way by the link-up. If it's to happen, it has to be the end of the private car in that area.

Metrobest · 21-12-2006 6:14am

Victor wrote:

Just before you get rid of all the buses from St. Stephen's Green, realise that they have to go somewhere...

So, by my calculations, that probably more than 100,000 people per day a lot more than Luas carries.

You're right - they do have to "go somewhere", and I said already, there's a smorgasbord of options available to Dublin Bus. My idea is as follows.

CROSS CITY
The folllowing cross-city routes could stop on Stephen's Green North, then Cuffe Street - Aungier Street/Bride Street/Patrick Street.
10/10A - 111
11/A - 55
11B - 26
20B - 14 (some)
46A - 146
46B - 26 (most)
46C - 8
46D - 1
46E - 1
46X - 1
Total: 389

Advantage over current arrangement:
*Allows Luas run down Dawson
*The 10 can go via Patrick Street as this would link it to Phibsboro via Church Street and avoid the congested O'Connell Steet area, freeing up capacity there.
*Ormond Quay will have new capacity post Port Tunnel, freeing up Dame Street and College Green.
*More reliable journey times with buses running along wider streets
*Frees up roadspace for cycle lanes in city

CITY TERMINI ROUTES
The 14s, 15s and 44s and 145s can Stop on Stephen's Green East and either terminate at Stephens Green North (for luas, metro, DART) or continue via a two-way Kildare Street to a new terminus at Merrion Square.
14 - 34
14A - 32
15 - 41
15A - 54
15B - 49
15C - 21
15E - 1
15F - 1
15X - 1
145 - 77
44/C - 36 (most)
44B - 2 (some)
48A - 30
Total: 349

Advantage over current set-up:
*Allows Luas run down Dawson
*Reclaims the pathways around Trinity College as true public spaces, not congested and unsafe gluts of commuters clogging up pavements waiting for buses, forcing pedestrians to walk out onto the road)
*Frees up roadspace for cycle lanes in city
*Removal of on-street car parking allows construction of better termini facilities at Stephen's Green and Merrion Square, plus reduces car congestion in these areas

The remainder includes the "X"s, the 92 and the 746. The Xs could all travel as per the cross city routes, while the 746 could utilise the Port Tunnel and also avoid Dawson.

The only barrier to Luas down Dawson Street is lack of imagination, the typically Irish negative "it can't be done" attitude.

As I've shown above, it can.

Just think of the benefits to everyone in the city of calmer streets (less bus congestion) and more efficient modes to take everyone to where they want to go more quickly, reliably and in more comfort.

Victor · 21-12-2006 6:28am

Metrobest wrote:

You're right - they do have to "go somewhere", and I said already, there's a smorgasbord of options available to Dublin Bus. My idea is as follows.

Not really. The fact is there are few north-south routes available due to TCD and Temple Bar. From Pearse Station to Christchurch, the only possbile routes are College Green, maybe Agelsea Street and Parliament Street ...... or through TCD.

markf909 · 21-12-2006 10:59am

Interesting idea, I think we do need some fresh ideas.

RPA plan would see trams using O'Connell Street

Frank McDonald, Environment Editor

The saga of linking up Dublin's two Luas light rail lines has taken a new turn with the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) unveiling its latest "preferred scheme" to run trams up O'Connell Street and down Marlborough Street.

The proposed route from St Stephen's Green, to be announced today, would run as a double track to College Green, where it would change to single track and run north via Westmoreland Street, O'Connell Bridge and along the west side of O'Connell Street.

It would turn into Cathal Brugha Street and then run south along Marlborough Street, crossing the Liffey on a new bridge and continuing via Hawkins Street and College Street to rejoin the double track section at College Green.

A year ago the RPA put forward five route options for the link, called "BX" because it would be an extension of Line B from Sandyford. Its "preferred option" then was a straight run of double-track to Upper O'Connell Street.

But this ran into strong opposition from Dublin Bus, which feared the construction and operation of BX would cause widespread disruption to bus services. Instead, it favoured another route running via Merrion Square.

RPA chief executive Frank Allen said the alternative route would attract fewer passengers because it would serve areas where "not many people want to go to" as well as being longer.

There was also opposition from Dublin City Council, which didn't want to see O'Connell Street turned into a building site once again so soon after completing its €40 million upgrade. It also wanted BX to contribute to urban regeneration.

"We went back to the drawing board to see if we could address these concerns and came up with Option F, running up O'Connell Street and down Marlborough Street," said Mr Allen.

However, a spokesman for Dublin Bus said the revised BX plan would have a severe impact on bus services. "It would run through the central spine of our bus routes where 60 million customers get on and off buses every year," he said.

Bus stops would have to be relocated away from this spine during the three-year construction period, with a consequent loss of customers, while the net gain for public transport would be minimal in the longer term - five to six million a year.

"The RPA admits that 50 per cent of total carryings on Luas have transferred from buses, so the real figure for this link would be three million extra or less," the spokesman said. "We would like to see this looked at in a more comprehensive way."

The revised BX plan would be 65 per cent more expensive than the original scheme favoured by the RPA. It would also involve removing the bus lane and restricting through-traffic on Dawson Street while Kildare Street would become two-way.

South Leinster Street, which links Nassau Street with Clare Street, would also become two-way while Lower Grafton Street would be reserved for Luas, buses and service vehicles. Buses would also be able to use the new bridge over the Liffey.

According to the RPA, benefits of the revised scheme would include improving the pedestrian environments of Dawson Street, Lower Grafton Street and College Green as well as encouraging the regeneration of Marlborough Street.

antoinolachtnai · 21-12-2006 12:01pm

If the metro is going to serve Westmoreland St/Trinity College, what is the point in having the Luas run along the same axis? Surely an alignment further to the west, or more likely further to the east makes more sense?

Frank Allen is right to say that fewer people want to go to Docklands. Nobody wants to go to Docklands at least partly because there is no way to get there. The point is to open up areas to new development, not to simply make central areas denser and denser. At the same time, there is a lot of new development coming on-stream in Docklands - that's the reason for extending the line towards the Point Depot.

An easterly alignment would also provide a fairly direct link to the DART and the Spencer Dock Station for passengers coming from the south.

But putting a Luas and a Metro along more or less the same alignment, in an areas that is partly conserved and will never be built up beyond the current density is just silly.

Navan Junction · 21-12-2006 12:14pm

In Paris the metro and the RER run alonside (rather over / under) on seperate lines to from Chatelet Les Halles to La Défense - the only difference is that the Metro stops every few stops and takes a lot longer..

Much the same as what is proposed from Stephen's green to O'connell street, but obviously for a much longer stretch

antoinolachtnai · 21-12-2006 4:12pm

For sure, it does happen, and there are certainly express trains in some cities and they are genuinely needed - but what is the distance between stops on the metro there? I would think it's much more than the proposed distance between Luas stops here.

The paris route you are talking about takes you halfway across paris! We are talking about a shorter distance, as you say. All of the luas stations are going to be within 8 minutes walk (half a mile) of a metro station, no?

If it could be done without disrupting traffic and buses generally, or if there weren't any viable alternative, fair enough.

Metrobest · 21-12-2006 11:38pm

Victor wrote:

Not really. The fact is there are few north-south routes available due to TCD and Temple Bar. From Pearse Station to Christchurch, the only possbile routes are College Green, maybe Agelsea Street and Parliament Street ...... or through TCD.

I think you've misunderstood! Cuffe Street is a four-lane street which provides a direct link from the Green to Aungier Street, Bride Street and Patrick Street and onwards to Dame Street, Church Street or Ormond Quay. In fact, there are five route options available, more if one-way streets became two-way.

Under current arrangements, car traffic moves freely from Leeson Street to Patrick Street via this route; yet incredibly, not one single bus route in Dublin uses the route. Presented with an open goal, Dublin Bus continues to kick the ball over the crossbar and then loudly complains when the goalposts are being shifted.

I'm a great believer in making cities as pleasant as possible for their citizens and double decker buses snaking through tiny streets do not contribute to this aim. Visitors to Amsterdam, for example, marvel at the pictureesque streets and canals, but just imagine the trams were replaced with 2,000 double decker buses? Amsterdam becomes Dublin!

Dublin Bus's attitude is "we've always done it this way; why change"?

They've got to change. They can't continue to congest Dublin's tiniest streets with 2,000 double deckers. I mean, we built the Port Tunnel to get rid of the trucks, but the penny hasn't dropped that the double deckers wield an equally pervasive influence on cyclists, pedestrians and city life in general.

All this hand-wringing over Dawson Street while a solution stares us in the face, it's comic!

My vision puts the double deckers back on streets more appropriate to handle them, and it leaves the histroric core of Dublin to luas, a higher capacity mode more appropriate for such a sensitive environment.

Luas Line BX sent back to the drawing board

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