Luas Line BX sent back to the drawing board

strassenwolf · 19-12-2006 10:37am

Hey Victor - you forgot the 39B:D

But the 18?

Victor · 19-12-2006 10:43am

strassenwolf wrote:

But the 18?

What 18?

strassenwolf · 19-12-2006 12:00pm

Victor wrote:

Total one way - 928

Aircoach - 78? (possibly a lot higher)
Coaches
Tour buses

So, by my calculations, that probably more than 100,000 people per day a lot more than Luas carries.

That doesn't even tell the full story. Each weekday, there are over 4,750 bus services (in total, i.e., both directions) which pass through the gap at TCD and Bank of Ireland in College Green. They would also be affected in some way by the link-up. If it's to happen, it has to be the end of the private car in that area.

Metrobest · 21-12-2006 6:14am

Victor wrote:

Just before you get rid of all the buses from St. Stephen's Green, realise that they have to go somewhere...

So, by my calculations, that probably more than 100,000 people per day a lot more than Luas carries.

You're right - they do have to "go somewhere", and I said already, there's a smorgasbord of options available to Dublin Bus. My idea is as follows.

CROSS CITY
The folllowing cross-city routes could stop on Stephen's Green North, then Cuffe Street - Aungier Street/Bride Street/Patrick Street.
10/10A - 111
11/A - 55
11B - 26
20B - 14 (some)
46A - 146
46B - 26 (most)
46C - 8
46D - 1
46E - 1
46X - 1
Total: 389

Advantage over current arrangement:
*Allows Luas run down Dawson
*The 10 can go via Patrick Street as this would link it to Phibsboro via Church Street and avoid the congested O'Connell Steet area, freeing up capacity there.
*Ormond Quay will have new capacity post Port Tunnel, freeing up Dame Street and College Green.
*More reliable journey times with buses running along wider streets
*Frees up roadspace for cycle lanes in city

CITY TERMINI ROUTES
The 14s, 15s and 44s and 145s can Stop on Stephen's Green East and either terminate at Stephens Green North (for luas, metro, DART) or continue via a two-way Kildare Street to a new terminus at Merrion Square.
14 - 34
14A - 32
15 - 41
15A - 54
15B - 49
15C - 21
15E - 1
15F - 1
15X - 1
145 - 77
44/C - 36 (most)
44B - 2 (some)
48A - 30
Total: 349

Advantage over current set-up:
*Allows Luas run down Dawson
*Reclaims the pathways around Trinity College as true public spaces, not congested and unsafe gluts of commuters clogging up pavements waiting for buses, forcing pedestrians to walk out onto the road)
*Frees up roadspace for cycle lanes in city
*Removal of on-street car parking allows construction of better termini facilities at Stephen's Green and Merrion Square, plus reduces car congestion in these areas

The remainder includes the "X"s, the 92 and the 746. The Xs could all travel as per the cross city routes, while the 746 could utilise the Port Tunnel and also avoid Dawson.

The only barrier to Luas down Dawson Street is lack of imagination, the typically Irish negative "it can't be done" attitude.

As I've shown above, it can.

Just think of the benefits to everyone in the city of calmer streets (less bus congestion) and more efficient modes to take everyone to where they want to go more quickly, reliably and in more comfort.

Victor · 21-12-2006 6:28am

Metrobest wrote:

You're right - they do have to "go somewhere", and I said already, there's a smorgasbord of options available to Dublin Bus. My idea is as follows.

Not really. The fact is there are few north-south routes available due to TCD and Temple Bar. From Pearse Station to Christchurch, the only possbile routes are College Green, maybe Agelsea Street and Parliament Street ...... or through TCD.

markf909 · 21-12-2006 10:59am

Interesting idea, I think we do need some fresh ideas.

RPA plan would see trams using O'Connell Street

Frank McDonald, Environment Editor

The saga of linking up Dublin's two Luas light rail lines has taken a new turn with the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) unveiling its latest "preferred scheme" to run trams up O'Connell Street and down Marlborough Street.

The proposed route from St Stephen's Green, to be announced today, would run as a double track to College Green, where it would change to single track and run north via Westmoreland Street, O'Connell Bridge and along the west side of O'Connell Street.

It would turn into Cathal Brugha Street and then run south along Marlborough Street, crossing the Liffey on a new bridge and continuing via Hawkins Street and College Street to rejoin the double track section at College Green.

A year ago the RPA put forward five route options for the link, called "BX" because it would be an extension of Line B from Sandyford. Its "preferred option" then was a straight run of double-track to Upper O'Connell Street.

But this ran into strong opposition from Dublin Bus, which feared the construction and operation of BX would cause widespread disruption to bus services. Instead, it favoured another route running via Merrion Square.

RPA chief executive Frank Allen said the alternative route would attract fewer passengers because it would serve areas where "not many people want to go to" as well as being longer.

There was also opposition from Dublin City Council, which didn't want to see O'Connell Street turned into a building site once again so soon after completing its €40 million upgrade. It also wanted BX to contribute to urban regeneration.

"We went back to the drawing board to see if we could address these concerns and came up with Option F, running up O'Connell Street and down Marlborough Street," said Mr Allen.

However, a spokesman for Dublin Bus said the revised BX plan would have a severe impact on bus services. "It would run through the central spine of our bus routes where 60 million customers get on and off buses every year," he said.

Bus stops would have to be relocated away from this spine during the three-year construction period, with a consequent loss of customers, while the net gain for public transport would be minimal in the longer term - five to six million a year.

"The RPA admits that 50 per cent of total carryings on Luas have transferred from buses, so the real figure for this link would be three million extra or less," the spokesman said. "We would like to see this looked at in a more comprehensive way."

The revised BX plan would be 65 per cent more expensive than the original scheme favoured by the RPA. It would also involve removing the bus lane and restricting through-traffic on Dawson Street while Kildare Street would become two-way.

South Leinster Street, which links Nassau Street with Clare Street, would also become two-way while Lower Grafton Street would be reserved for Luas, buses and service vehicles. Buses would also be able to use the new bridge over the Liffey.

According to the RPA, benefits of the revised scheme would include improving the pedestrian environments of Dawson Street, Lower Grafton Street and College Green as well as encouraging the regeneration of Marlborough Street.

antoinolachtnai · 21-12-2006 12:01pm

If the metro is going to serve Westmoreland St/Trinity College, what is the point in having the Luas run along the same axis? Surely an alignment further to the west, or more likely further to the east makes more sense?

Frank Allen is right to say that fewer people want to go to Docklands. Nobody wants to go to Docklands at least partly because there is no way to get there. The point is to open up areas to new development, not to simply make central areas denser and denser. At the same time, there is a lot of new development coming on-stream in Docklands - that's the reason for extending the line towards the Point Depot.

An easterly alignment would also provide a fairly direct link to the DART and the Spencer Dock Station for passengers coming from the south.

But putting a Luas and a Metro along more or less the same alignment, in an areas that is partly conserved and will never be built up beyond the current density is just silly.

Navan Junction · 21-12-2006 12:14pm

In Paris the metro and the RER run alonside (rather over / under) on seperate lines to from Chatelet Les Halles to La Défense - the only difference is that the Metro stops every few stops and takes a lot longer..

Much the same as what is proposed from Stephen's green to O'connell street, but obviously for a much longer stretch

antoinolachtnai · 21-12-2006 4:12pm

For sure, it does happen, and there are certainly express trains in some cities and they are genuinely needed - but what is the distance between stops on the metro there? I would think it's much more than the proposed distance between Luas stops here.

The paris route you are talking about takes you halfway across paris! We are talking about a shorter distance, as you say. All of the luas stations are going to be within 8 minutes walk (half a mile) of a metro station, no?

If it could be done without disrupting traffic and buses generally, or if there weren't any viable alternative, fair enough.

Metrobest · 21-12-2006 11:38pm

Victor wrote:

Not really. The fact is there are few north-south routes available due to TCD and Temple Bar. From Pearse Station to Christchurch, the only possbile routes are College Green, maybe Agelsea Street and Parliament Street ...... or through TCD.

I think you've misunderstood! Cuffe Street is a four-lane street which provides a direct link from the Green to Aungier Street, Bride Street and Patrick Street and onwards to Dame Street, Church Street or Ormond Quay. In fact, there are five route options available, more if one-way streets became two-way.

Under current arrangements, car traffic moves freely from Leeson Street to Patrick Street via this route; yet incredibly, not one single bus route in Dublin uses the route. Presented with an open goal, Dublin Bus continues to kick the ball over the crossbar and then loudly complains when the goalposts are being shifted.

I'm a great believer in making cities as pleasant as possible for their citizens and double decker buses snaking through tiny streets do not contribute to this aim. Visitors to Amsterdam, for example, marvel at the pictureesque streets and canals, but just imagine the trams were replaced with 2,000 double decker buses? Amsterdam becomes Dublin!

Dublin Bus's attitude is "we've always done it this way; why change"?

They've got to change. They can't continue to congest Dublin's tiniest streets with 2,000 double deckers. I mean, we built the Port Tunnel to get rid of the trucks, but the penny hasn't dropped that the double deckers wield an equally pervasive influence on cyclists, pedestrians and city life in general.

All this hand-wringing over Dawson Street while a solution stares us in the face, it's comic!

My vision puts the double deckers back on streets more appropriate to handle them, and it leaves the histroric core of Dublin to luas, a higher capacity mode more appropriate for such a sensitive environment.

AlekSmart · 22-12-2006 1:27am

Gotta agree wit Metrobest there.
I would contend that DB is shooting itself in the feet by NOT actively pursuing alternative route options for its X-City routes.
The current target-fixation with O Connell St will eventually choke the company unless it is sorted pretty rapidly.

The last company motto was "Changing with the City" something which is patently untrue.
Today`s motto is "Serving the Entire Community" which could be argued about.

Gardiner St-Matt Talbot Bridge-Westland Row-Merrion Sq.
Jervis St-Parnell St-Bolton St
Jervis St-Parnell St-Domnick St-Western Way
East Link Bridge-North Quays-East Wall.

The above are just a few alternatives which might bear development.
However the real problem lies in the lack of any mutual regard between DB and DCC.
Nobody in overall control,nobody with enough interest to risk upsetting the status quo......In short......Stagnation

Victor · 22-12-2006 3:55am

Metrobest wrote:

Under current arrangements, car traffic moves freely from Leeson Street to Patrick Street via this route;

Kevin Street will often back up onto Cuffe Street and at peak times onto the Green.

I'm a great believer in making cities as pleasant as possible for their citizens and double decker buses snaking through tiny streets do not contribute to this aim.

I agree with that objective, but if you strip out the cars, not the buses, you achieve that aim. Look at the Stillorgan QBC. Convoys of buses in the morning, but they aren't oppressive because they are moving. An intemittant problem, not a constant one.

They can't continue to congest Dublin's tiniest streets with 2,000 double deckers.

1,000

I mean, we built the Port Tunnel to get rid of the trucks, but the penny hasn't dropped that the double deckers wield an equally pervasive influence on cyclists, pedestrians and city life in general.

Yes buses are big and overbearing, but I'd much prefer X buses than 50X cars.

All this hand-wringing over Dawson Street while a solution stares us in the face, it's comic!

Its only a partial solution. Trams cannot (meaningfully) serve every suburb so there will always be a need for some bus journeys to the city centre. It would be best for those buses to go where most people want to go, that is inside the inner orbital, not on the inner orbital.

My vision puts the double deckers back on streets more appropriate to handle them

Those streets don't exist in the right place.

strassenwolf · 23-12-2006 5:06pm

The Irish Times wrote:

The proposed route from St Stephen's Green, to be announced today, would run as a double track to College Green, where it would change to single track and run north via Westmoreland Street, O'Connell Bridge and along the west side of O'Connell Street.

It would turn into Cathal Brugha Street and then run south along Marlborough Street, crossing the Liffey on a new bridge and continuing via Hawkins Street and College Street to rejoin the double track section at College Green.

The indications from the above are that the RPA believe that Dawson Street and College Green are achievable as double track.

I don't think it's clear from the full article in this case whether Dublin Bus disagree on the College Green/Dawson Street section alone, or whether they have problems with the entire route.

One reason for the single track section and the new bridge appear to be DCC's plans for urban regeneration. However, apart from the cost of the new bridge I would think that there would be certain economies of scale accrued by building the whole thing as double track along O'Connell Street, rather than building single track along both O'Connell Street and Marlborough Street. DCC don't want O'Connell Street turned into a building site, which is fair enough after all their hard work, but it appears that it will be anyway, whether it's for a single or double track LUAS.

One aspect of the new plan is that project costs will increase by about 65%, over the original figure. The original figure for the link up was about €100 million, so the increased amount should be about €65 million.

I'd imagine that building the LUAS as dual track along O'Connell Street would have some positives for urban regeneration anyway on Marlborough Street and Hawkins Street which are only about 100-200 metres away from the western section of single track. If there's extra money available in the overall kitty, it might be better to target the extra money directly at "urban regeneration" on those streets, e.g. by "living over the shop" grants or other refurbishment grants, rather than hoping that it'll happen because you build a LUAS line along them.

Victor · 24-12-2006 2:10am

A single track loop means less / no need for a formal terminus and no need for drivers to change ends.

strassenwolf · 25-12-2006 1:18pm

Victor wrote:

A single track loop means less / no need for a formal terminus and no need for drivers to change ends.

If the line is to be extended towards Finglas, the O'Connell Street stop would end up being just another stop. There would probably be no call for a canopy or other fancy arrangement such as is present at Connolly - I'd imagine it would be much more like what is present at St. Stephen's Green, which does not look like a very difficult or expensive arrangement to construct.:D

As for drivers having to change ends, or not having to change ends as the case may be, it is reasonable to ask whether this is a nicety for which is worth forking out an extra €65 million.

On the other hand, the Marlborough Street/Hawkins Street single line would make it slightly easier for DART passengers from Tara Street to get to the LUAS heading towards St. Stephen's Green, which might be a factor if the more expensive metro and interconnector projects run into delays or other problems.

Happy Christmas to one and all.

KC61 · 25-12-2006 1:46pm

I don't think Dublin Bus would have any major problem with sharing the above section with LUAS operationally - there are similar streets in central Manchester that work very well.

The problem that they have is with the construction phase. Nassau Street would at the very least be one way between Dawson Street and Grafton Street during this phase and might even have to be closed altogether. Inbound could be coped with - rerouting via Westland Row and Pearse St. But outbound? These are some of the busiest stops in the city.

During the Green Line construction bus services were just about maintained as normal (despite the woeful tailbacks on Harcourt Street).

But this would have a far greater impact on buses. And it's not as simple as saying that DB must change their attitude and re-route the buses, via say Georges St or Townsend St. The problem is that many of the buses are serving areas not served by LUAS. Do you discomode those people to benefit a far smaller group of people?

I am all in favour of linking the two lines up, but I just think that the mayhem that will result during construction might be a bridge too far!

And as for digging up O'Connell Street again, really this has been done enough now - we have to think outside the box on this one.

Metrobest · 27-12-2006 11:42pm

AlekSmart wrote:

Gotta agree wit Metrobest there.
I would contend that DB is shooting itself in the feet by NOT actively pursuing alternative route options for its X-City routes.
The current target-fixation with O Connell St will eventually choke the company unless it is sorted pretty rapidly.

Not only that, but O'Connell Street and the rest of the key city centre axis cannot become a world-class civic space until the Double Deckers are taken away. Only last year a tourist narrowly escaped death when a double decker ploughed into her at a pedestrian crossing. And then there was the incident at Wellington Quay when a double decker mounted the pavement and killed several people.

Cities like Barcelona have realised that the pollution and noise emitted by cars and buses are not suitable for sensitive city centre spaces. They reduced the Ramblas, Barcelona's answer to O'Connell St, down to one lane and created dedicated busways on larger roads which can cope with them.

In another initiative to make the city less noisy, blind people are given vibrating sensors at pedestrian crossings to indicate the green man. This means the crossings do not need to noisily beep and buzz like they do in Dublin.

Last year, a delegation from Barcelona Transport visited Dublin primarily to see Luas, Ireland's only public transport success story. It was shocked to witness convoys of double decker buses running down O'Connnell St. It could not understand why other routes were not being utilised to cross the city.

Yes buses are big and overbearing, but I'd much prefer X buses than 50X cars.

And I'd prefer to see X luas than 2,000+ buses and several thousand cars running through College Green every day, the situation we currently endure.

If we leave things the way they are, we get more of the same noise pollution, more of the same unsustainable transport, ugly double decker buses and congested footpaths.

The route options ARE there to divert buses away from Dawson and O'Connell Streets. Dublin Bus and the City Council need to get their finger out and put these new arrangements in place.

I think the needs of the whole city are more important than those of a few thousand southsiders who want a door-to-door bus service to Nude and Avoca Hand Weavers.

dowlingm · 29-12-2006 10:29pm

Very few bus routes go into downtown Toronto because they feed bus and streetcar lines. Turning buses away from An Lar in favour of lateral routes feeding LUAS and Metro is the only way DCC can be saved from public transport meltdown and the poster child for this is the Trinity College area.

Pick a route. I'm picking 31 on Howth peninsula. It goes right into town when the DART also serves Howth. Why? The only bus services on Howth peninsula should serve sites more than a given distance, say 200m from the nearest DART stop. The average length of bus routes needs to be dramatically reduced with more branching to increase the reach of the bus network.

In Toronto, you take the subway between 0600-0100 and the night bus from 0100-0600. There's no price difference and transferring doesn't cost anything. There are a very few express buses which serve downtown but they cost MORE than subway/streetcar and exploit gaps in the subway/streetcar network. Dublin buses which compete with DART cost less so people avoid DART. Short journeys should favour bus, longer ones LUAS/DART.

The only buses serving Dublin city centre should be originating where it is impractical to put people on a metro/tram or where it is not possible to increase capacity on that line, and if that's the case it's time to build another. A transport strategy should also emphasis multiple hubs so that someone in Ballymun shouldn't have to go into town to go to Dundalk, they should be getting Metro to Balbriggan or Rush/Lusk and transferring to IE there rather than at Connolly.

Metrobest · 01-01-2007 6:41am

dowlingm wrote:

Very few bus routes go into downtown Toronto because they feed bus and streetcar lines. Turning buses away from An Lar in favour of lateral routes feeding LUAS and Metro is the only way DCC can be saved from public transport meltdown and the poster child for this is the Trinity College area.

Pick a route. I'm picking 31 on Howth peninsula. It goes right into town when the DART also serves Howth. Why? The only bus services on Howth peninsula should serve sites more than a given distance, say 200m from the nearest DART stop. The average length of bus routes needs to be dramatically reduced with more branching to increase the reach of the bus network.

In Toronto, you take the subway between 0600-0100 and the night bus from 0100-0600. There's no price difference and transferring doesn't cost anything. There are a very few express buses which serve downtown but they cost MORE than subway/streetcar and exploit gaps in the subway/streetcar network. Dublin buses which compete with DART cost less so people avoid DART. Short journeys should favour bus, longer ones LUAS/DART.

The only buses serving Dublin city centre should be originating where it is impractical to put people on a metro/tram or where it is not possible to increase capacity on that line, and if that's the case it's time to build another. A transport strategy should also emphasis multiple hubs so that someone in Ballymun shouldn't have to go into town to go to Dundalk, they should be getting Metro to Balbriggan or Rush/Lusk and transferring to IE there rather than at Connolly.

Hear, hear.

murphaph · 01-01-2007 3:17pm

Is it just double deckers that you dislike MB? London has several near silent double deckers running on hydrogen fuel cells. Would that be acceptable? I myself agree with much of what you say-insofar as buses should feed rail where the rail has the spare capacity (much of the network of course dos not!). In areas where no rail exists or the nearby rail is already at capacity, then I see no option but to run buses directly into town as there is simply no other means available. Now, the question is 'where in town' and it has to be said, right now in 2007 O'Connell St is wide enough to take them while many others are not. Long term, post interconnector/metro then I can see your case for complete pedestrianisation of the likes of O'Connell St. Personally I would like to see city centre carparks shut down and vast swathes of the city centre made Bus/wheelchair accessible taxi only. Obviously you'd need to buy a lot more buses for the city.

Metrobest · 02-01-2007 5:37am

:rolleyes:

murphaph wrote:

Is it just double deckers that you dislike MB? London has several near silent double deckers running on hydrogen fuel cells. Would that be acceptable? I myself agree with much of what you say-insofar as buses should feed rail where the rail has the spare capacity (much of the network of course dos not!). In areas where no rail exists or the nearby rail is already at capacity, then I see no option but to run buses directly into town as there is simply no other means available. Now, the question is 'where in town' and it has to be said, right now in 2007 O'Connell St is wide enough to take them while many others are not. Long term, post interconnector/metro then I can see your case for complete pedestrianisation of the likes of O'Connell St. Personally I would like to see city centre carparks shut down and vast swathes of the city centre made Bus/wheelchair accessible taxi only. Obviously you'd need to buy a lot more buses for the city.

Hi Philip. Happy New Year!

Yes, I'd be a little more comfortable with the idea of near silent London-style double deckers running on greener fuels.

You mention London; I like the Singapore bus solution more: there they have a mixed fleet with some double deckers plying routes with wide, wide streets and single deckers on smaller routes. Their double deckers have exits front and rear, and four smart card readers (two at entrance, two at exit) so you can tag on/off easily.

Electronic Road Pricing acts as a congestion charge limiting car movement across the city, the metro system is extensive and bus routes fill the gaps where metro does not cover.

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/transportissues/photos/erp.jpg

And best of all, they have televisions on board

00062%20Singapore%20-%20inside%20SBS%20bus%20-%20cheap%20tickets%20-%20aircon%20and%20TV%20in%20the%20bus.jpg

00062%20Singapore%20-%20inside%20SBS%20bus%20-%20cheap%20tickets%20-%20aircon%20and%20TV%20in%20the%20bus.jpg

Read about Singapore Bus here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_Services_in_Singapore

Interestingly, almost all cities that use double decker buses are former British colonies. It must be a percurliarly British thing to stare vacantly out the window on the top floor of a double decker while the oversized bus tries to negotiate streets too tiny to handle it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_decker_bus

With the anti-British backlash that engulfed Ireland during the de Valera years, it's a curious thing that the double decker concept was kept alive.

dowlingm · 03-01-2007 2:53am

metrobest - I think one reason double deckers are coming back in style in Canada is that the usual alternative - artic buses - get somewhat skittish in the winter from a roadholding pov.

antoinolachtnai · 03-01-2007 7:42pm

How exactly does a double-decker bus create more congestion compared to two single-decker buses, or for that matter, 50 private cars? Surely it creates less?

In what circumstances is a double-decker bus more difficult to manouver than a single-decker bus or a truck of the same length and width? Do you think it's worth raising fares and subsidies by the 20 or 30 percent that would be required to provide the same capacity with single-decker buses? Or would it be better to put that money into providing extra capacity?

Germany can hardly be called a former British colony, yet Berlin has many double-deckers on its streets (and they have almost no trams in the old West of the city).

I thought all the H buses in London were single-deck, but I could be wrong.

dowlingm · 03-01-2007 9:15pm

For those concerned about overhead wires - the Citadis trams in Bordeaux use a third rail which is only powered when a tram fully covers each section. It seems to be working well without safety issues. I'd love to see that done in Toronto when they replace the current streetcars for two reasons.

1. On streets where the wires are strung from each pavement it's incredibly unsightly.
2. On streets where there is a centre pole it widens the necessary lane/right of way to allow streetcars to pass with adequate clearance.

Luas Line BX sent back to the drawing board

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