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Dublin Bus strike from Sunday 04/08 [called off - service resumes 07/08]

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    #782
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,254 ✭✭✭markpb


    end of the road wrote: »
    in fairness i would say it was only a few petty people who stopped using dublin bus because of the industrial action

    People are petty for seeking an alternative way of getting to work and realising it's better for whatever reason (speed, reliability, frequency, cost)? I think the pettyness is quoted in this post IMHO.
    paulieb wrote: »
    I am driver so I know a little more that most here. [...] Some here say that's no problem, a private operator will run them for a flat fee of the NTA.

    With all due respect, you may be a driver but that gives you no more insight into how a hypothetical private operator (or operators) will act. You don't know what level the subvention will be set at, you don't know what their cost base will be, you don't know what penalties, if any, will be included in the contract. Does this happen with the companies that are contracted to run bus routes or tube lines in London, does it happen to the private company running the Luas, what about the private companies operating routes in Los Angeles?


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    #783
    Mongfinder General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭Mongfinder General


    devnull wrote: »
    It's actually very serious, since for each customer who stops using Dublin Bus who is a regular commuter on their services 5 days a week, it would be approx 1,000 euro a year of cash lost to the company. If it's 500 people that stop using Dublin Bus, it's another half a million that needs to be found somewhere else.

    Dublin Bus needs any passenger it can get right now and can't afford to lose any no matter if they are petty or not. If the staff honestly don't care if passengers are abandoning them or not, then clearly they aren't looking at the bigger picture regarding the future of the company and that would have me very worried for it's future.

    It just re-enforces my view that there are too many people in the company who have the view that the customer, and retaining and growing their customer base does not matter, and these are the kind of people that we could do without in the company, since as the report says, passengers will ultimately decide the fate of Dublin Bus and if people don't start to wake up to this fact soon, then sadly you're all going to be doomed long term.

    Dublin Bus has enough customers, just not enough paying customers.


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    #784
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Mongfinder General wrote: »
    Dublin Bus has enough customers, just not enough paying customers.

    Staggering that you think that Dublin Bus has enough customers, the fact passenger numbers have dropped is probably the biggest reason the company is in the state it is.

    But the fact we've heard one person tonight saying that they don't mind that passengers are leaving and another saying they don't need anymore just staggers me.

    No wonder the company is in the mess that it is, everyone from the top down should be doing what they can to retain and grow the customer base. If that is not deemed important then there is something seriously wrong.


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    #785
    Mongfinder General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭Mongfinder General


    devnull wrote: »
    Staggering that you think that Dublin Bus has enough customers, the fact passenger numbers have dropped is probably the biggest reason the company is in the state it is.

    But the fact we've heard one person tonight saying that they don't mind that passengers are leaving and another saying they don't need anymore just staggers me.

    No wonder the company is in the mess that it is, everyone from the top down should be doing what they can to retain and grow the customer base. If that is not deemed important then there is something seriously wrong.

    Read what I said. Not enough paying customers. I'm on these buses day and night (140 mainly). They are packed in the morning. Every 3rd or 4th passenger is a welfare recipient with a free pass and before you start I know that there is government subvention. They are busy at off peak times too after 8 (not jammed). Free bus passes should be limited to certain times. It will help spread passenger numbers and speed up journeys at peak times.

    Dublin Bus is suffering because there are too many people sucking off the government t1t. I cycle into work a lot of the time now. Bus journies are becoming longer and longer due to crammed buses stopping at evey stop and taking forever to get where they're going.


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    #786
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    markpb wrote: »
    People are petty for seeking an alternative way of getting to work and realising it's better for whatever reason (speed, reliability, frequency, cost)? I think the pettyness is quoted in this post IMHO.
    really? see i remember more or less stating that those who left because of the industrial action alone were petty, i don't work for DB by the way but i stand by that point, most of those who did leave however would have left anyway even if their were no strikes ever
    markpb wrote: »
    With all due respect, you may be a driver but that gives you no more insight into how a hypothetical private operator (or operators) will act. You don't know what level the subvention will be set at, you don't know what their cost base will be, you don't know what penalties, if any, will be included in the contract. Does this happen with the companies that are contracted to run bus routes or tube lines in London, does it happen to the private company running the Luas, what about the private companies operating routes in Los Angeles?
    london and LA are irrelevant, the majority of routes there are proffitable, the luas is also proffitable, the tube to. oh knowing ireland i think we can probably guess how this will go

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #787
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    devnull wrote: »
    we've heard one person tonight saying that they don't mind that passengers are leaving
    have we? who said that then?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #788
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,254 ✭✭✭markpb


    end of the road wrote: »
    london and LA are irrelevant, the majority of routes there are proffitable, the luas is also proffitable, the tube to.

    You're kidding me? Normally your posts are quite knowledgeable even if I disagree with everything you say :) How anyone can call LACMTA or LUL are profitable is beyond me.


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    #789
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    end of the road wrote: »
    in fairness i would say it was only a few petty people who stopped using dublin bus because of the industrial action, the rest of those who have would have done so anyway IMO.

    A "few" people of any sort, does not fit in with line quoted.

    Lots of users have been fed up with the level of service provided for a long, long time (some issues the fault of the company, some not). Death by a hundred cuts -- sooner or later something small can push a passenger into a different mode. When you have to get to work or somewhere else, a three day strike ranks up there as more than just a small thing.

    Mongfinder General wrote: »
    Read what I said. Not enough paying customers. I'm on these buses day and night (140 mainly). They are packed in the morning. Every 3rd or 4th passenger is a welfare recipient with a free pass and before you start I know that there is government subvention. They are busy at off peak times too after 8 (not jammed). Free bus passes should be limited to certain times. It will help spread passenger numbers and speed up journeys at peak times.

    Dublin Bus is suffering because there are too many people sucking off the government t1t. I cycle into work a lot of the time now. Bus journies are becoming longer and longer due to crammed buses stopping at evey stop and taking forever to get where they're going.

    Free pass holders are paying customers. Full stop.

    It's not their fault that the government is playing games between messing up their toy transport companies and wanting to give out political gifts to the old and less well off.

    Whatever about the general subvention, with the "free pass", the government should be paying the going rate per passenger trip (or the equivalent of the annual pass rate per passenger). With the "free pass" we can't continue to allow the Department of Social Welfare to base payments on estimates from 10 or 20 years ago.

    The issues of dwell times can be largely sorted by short to mid term fixes such as: pushing all pass and payments onto a tag-on system; forcing the use of middle doors when the bus has them; expanding Leap products; upping cash fares; reducing the amount of bus stops along some streets/roads; etc.


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    #790
    CreepingDeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    end of the road wrote: »
    in fairness i would say it was only a few petty people who stopped using dublin bus because of the industrial action, the rest of those who have would have done so anyway IMO.

    It's called a monopoly...
    The only thing keeping Dublin bus customers from completely leaving are the tax saver tickets.

    I looked into car park space rental a year ago, and could rent a car space for around €100 per month near to my city centre workplace.
    If I hadn't got the tax saver monthly ticket, I'd have dumped Dublin bus.

    DB are been subsidised by direct AND indirect means.

    * And yes, I know the likes of Matthews coaches customers can also avail of the tax saver tickets.


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    #791
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    end of the road wrote: »
    really? see i remember more or less stating that those who left because of the industrial action alone were petty, i don't work for DB by the way but i stand by that point, most of those who did leave however would have left anyway even if their were no strikes ever

    london and LA are irrelevant, the majority of routes there are proffitable, the luas is also proffitable, the tube to. oh knowing ireland i think we can probably guess how this will go
    markpb wrote: »
    You're kidding me? Normally your posts are quite knowledgeable even if I disagree with everything you say :) How anyone can call LACMTA or LUL are profitable is beyond me.

    Also: Luas isn't profitable.

    It isn't currently even running an operational profit. And it's apparent profit does not come close to covering its €1.5bn construction and tram investment costs (but then again Dublin Bus and other bus providers don't pay for the upkeep of roads and bus stops etc and the NTA has started to provide buses).


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    #792
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    paulieb wrote: »
    Most of the people posting here use a bus once or twice a day or are a bus enthusiast.
    I am driver so I know a little more that most here. I can tell you somethings with absolute certainty, and one of them is that outside of the main routes, (145,46a,7) buses are running practically empty after 8pm.
    Some here say that's no problem, a private operator will run them for a flat fee of the NTA.
    Maybe for a year, but then shareholders in the company will demand growth and it will not be forthcoming. Thats capitalism for you,the nerve of them.
    They will pull out and these non performing routes will be put on the market again with better terms and higher payment from the NTA. The fares will go up and the service will be cut back even more.


    No they will be paid on a kilometre basis buses empty or full will make no difference to them, actually the NTA plan takes all risk away from private companies but hands them any profits.
    The international experience is that tendering delivers initial savings but these quickly disappear and by the time of the second or third round of tenders, the cost has exceeded the costs of the previous state operator.

    This can happen because the original bids are too low, either because the companies applying are eager to get the contract or underestimate the real costs, also what happens is the competition for tenders diminishes over time as the costs of entry and the advantage of the incumbent kick in, there is also the fact that large multinationals basically split the market up between them and don't outbid each other.

    What you are left with then is a small group of private operators who set their own prices for contracts and the state has little or no control over, and the cost of tenders increases and you also have the added cost of adminstrating and monitoring the tender process and the winning operators.

    All in all it will end up costing the state far more in subvention and passengers more in fares.

    Of course another problem you may face particularly in the first tenders is companies just handing back the tender as they have underbid to win the contract, you may also have serious service disruptions if winning operators can't find or retain staff due to poor pay and conditions as happened in London.

    An economic upturn and people don't want to drive buses when other better paying jobs are available, Dublin Bus experienced this in the late 90s, it led to the charade of the 20% pay rise where the unions pretended they had won something the company knew and wanted to give anyway as they could not attract or retain staff at the then pay rates.
    However a company on a fixed term fixed price contract would not have the flexibility to respond to that kind of event.

    Those thinking privatisation is the answer are in for a nasty shock when they get it.


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    #793
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    devnull wrote: »
    I just read this in the report linked to by LXFlyer in an earlier post.



    So already it seems that the strike has made the company in an even worse positio since people have just given up on using Dublin Bus. It's important that all sides realise that if another strike was to happen, the situation at the company will only get worse.

    If I was an employee of Dublin Bus, the last paragraph would have me extremely worried, because that is the kind of thing that really will effect the viability of the company and its services. The fact that customers are abandoning Dublin Bus because of the industrial action, is one of the most serious points of the whole issue, since fewer passengers means lesser demand which means further cuts down the line.

    It has to be recognised, that the longer this drags on for, the worse it's going to be for the company long term, and that is going to effect ALL staff, everybody needs to work together and see the bigger picture, both management and staff of all grades alike and make an agreement, before the situation worsens and requires an even bigger set of cost saving measures.

    Stop spinning for gods sake, it doesn't say anything like that and you would have thought that these people would have learned by now that scare mongering hasn't worked up to now in fact it just pisses people off who can see right through it.

    Dublin bus will have ceased to exist in the next 5 to 10 years either way, that is clearly the intention the NTA so you can sit around and help them along the way till they are ready or you can stand up now when they are not ready but only a fool would believe you are saving Dublin Bus all you are doing is keeping it going till they are ready to kill it.


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    #794
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    CreepingDeath wrote: »
    It's called a monopoly...
    The only thing keeping Dublin bus customers from completely leaving are the tax saver tickets.

    I looked into car park space rental a year ago, and could rent a car space for around €100 per month near to my city centre workplace.
    If I hadn't got the tax saver monthly ticket, I'd have dumped Dublin bus.

    DB are been subsidised by direct AND indirect means.

    * And yes, I know the likes of Matthews coaches customers can also avail of the tax saver tickets.

    And nothing will change under competitive tendering the operators will still be paid directly by the taxpayer and receive indirect subsidies when the NTA provides them with buses, garages, traffic control, bus stops, and the NTA will also pay for revenue protection as well as monitoring the service levels.
    And you still won't have a choice of bus companies, it will just be a monopoly operated by different companies on behalf of a different state agency.


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    #795
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    edanto wrote: »
    The IT reports today on this third party group and their report. cdebru, do you think their reason for the rejection matches your view?

    "The report says that the principal and overriding reason for workers rejecting the Labour Court recommendation on cost-saving measures was the complete lack of trust in the word of the company.

    ....

    The report says that the current proposals represent “the best that can be achieved in the current financial circumstances”. It says any further concessions “would fatally undermine the company’s cost-saving plan”.

    However. the report sets out a number of operational changes to address many of the drivers’ concerns which were identified as contributing to the rejection of the previous ballots."

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/independent-report-warns-against-further-strikes-by-dublin-bus-workers-1.1561946

    Personally, I'm just trying to understand the reasons behind the rejection of the proposals.

    Drivers don't trust the company no,but I don't think that is the principal or over riding issue though it is just one of them.

    It would be an issue common to the majority of drivers where other issues might not be for example spare drivers would have particular issues that may not affect marked in drivers, or not in the same way at least.


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    #796
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    cdebru wrote: »
    Stop spinning for gods sake, it doesn't say anything like that and you would have thought that these people would have learned by now that scare mongering hasn't worked up to now in fact it just pisses people off who can see right through it.

    The following two paragraphs are direct quotes from the report, they are not my opinion, they can be found in the report itself, they are not spin, but actually directed lifted from the report itself, on page 3 and 4, I wouldn't say they were from the report when they are not, because I'm not the kind of person who use such tactics to try and get my point across.

    However passengers will ultimately decide the fate of Dublin Bus. They will only return in numbers if Dublin Bus provides a good service, attractive fares and guarantees continuity of service to potential passengers. The recent dispute damaged the goodwill built up over the past few years by bus drivers and this will not be easily won back. This proposal provides an opportunity to do so.

    However the 3 day strike damaged public confidence in the service and 700,000 passenger journeys were lost and passenger numbers have not yet returned to pre-strike levels. The strike cost Dublin Bus €550,000 in reduced payments from the National Transport Authority and the Department of Social Protection
    you would have thought that these people would have learned by now that scare mongering hasn't worked up to now in fact it just pisses people off who can see right through it.

    I agree, as LxFlyer has already pointed out, OI can see the scaremongering from the other side as well. The difference is an INDEPENDENT report says what I quoted it's not scaremongering, it's there in the report, which was actually compiled by ex Union officials.

    The company needs to increase revenue and the best way of doing that is increasing passengers, honestly if the staff can't see this and don't see that as important, then no wonder the company is in tatters, there needs to be much more of a customer focus in Dublin Bus, from the top down and this would help attack more passengers.

    Gimmicks like My Dublin Bus Experience, which was advertised when it first launched as a six month project to focus on the customer is not what is needed, customers need to be put into focus all year through. The project was simply a PR drive because the PSO contract was up for renewal, notice how quiet the whole thing has gone since with it not even being advertised on the Dublin Bus website anymore.

    Dublin Bus HAS to win more business. If Dublin Bus grows it's passenger numbers and provides a good service then this can only enhance it's chances in the future, saying that nobody should bother because they're going to be broke up anyway, when nobody has even took that decision yet, is folly, instead the staff and management should be doing everything they can to prove that they can offer a higher level of service and therefore achieve greater support from the public.

    They can spend the next 18 months moaning about it rather than trying to prove that they can offer a better service, or they could act in a way that shows they are determined to prove their worth and to show the department that they should be kept on. Whenever I've heard that a company I work for could lose a contract or something is going out to tender, it makes me determined to rally round and prove our companies worth to ensure we have the best chance of keeping the contract going forward.

    If I sat there thinking, christ, you know what, I think we may lose this contract so why don't I just sit here moaning for the next 12 months whilst our contract runs down. Then we'd certainly lose the contract. My point is, the only way that Dublin Bus staff can secure a long term future for the company is by upping their game and attracting new passengers. I'm not saying it will work for sure, but it is a damn better option and a damn sight more likely than doing nothing and sitting there and moaning. In fact, sitting their and moaning does quite the opposite.


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    #797
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,559 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    At the end of the day what is needed now is some cool clear thinking, rather than emotive statements and scaremongering.

    This document is very clear and unambiguous, and frankly I would hope that some common sense will prevail as a result of it.

    I said ages ago that no company can live in a vacuum and Dublin Bus is no exception to this. Some people seem to think that this is the case and frankly it isn't. It needs to make short term adjustments to return the company to profitability. That document makes it quite clear that the company's survival is on the line here, and I think people need to reflect upon that.

    Unlike some of the comments above, I do believe that Dublin Bus have a major role to play in the future, but the reality is that the underlying market that it operates in is changing and the company will have to change to remain competitive in that market. It will need to change the way it does things, become more efficient, and reduce costs.

    The long term future for the company will be solely as an operator, of that I have no doubt. The network management, branding, marketing and schedule design will all switch to the NTA, which frankly is how this should be managed.

    People have got to start realising that the status quo is not going to be maintained, and that will mean change.


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    #798
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,559 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    devnull wrote: »
    Gimmicks like My Dublin Bus Experience, which was advertised when it first launched as a six month project to focus on the customer is not what is needed, customers need to be put into focus all year through. The project was simply a PR drive because the PSO contract was up for renewal, notice how quiet the whole thing has gone since with it not even being advertised on the Dublin Bus website anymore.

    Just to correct you - it is still on the Dublin Bus website.

    I wouldn't see focussed exercises such as this as a PR gimmick - they do have their uses and generally result in improvements.

    However, lets be honest, recent events will have focussed minds more on getting the dispute resolved so that the company can move on and start adjusting to the changing environment that it faces.


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    #799
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    monument wrote: »
    Free pass holders are paying customers. Full stop.
    I don't understand this comment. Could you clarify further? I didn't think they were paying customers in any sense, be it in terms of marginal revenue for Dublin Bus in particular or for the customers themselves, who receive the pass basically free of charge.


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    #800
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,719 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Mongfinder General wrote: »
    Bus journies are becoming longer and longer due to crammed buses stopping at evey stop and taking forever to get where they're going.

    Very valid point.. there are FAR too many bus stops within short distances (a few hundred metres or less) of each other.

    Either remove some of these or introduce more express routes (or are these still going nowadays?).

    Not much point stripping half the road space for bus lanes if they can't be used to full effect.


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    #801
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,559 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    Very valid point.. there are FAR too many bus stops within short distances (a few hundred metres or less) of each other.

    Either remove some of these or introduce more express routes (or are these still going nowadays?).

    Not much point stripping half the road space for bus lanes if they can't be used to full effect.

    The ideal spacing for bus stops is 400m apart, but this will be closer in town centres and residential areas where passenger requirements demand it. Remember that people may have walked significant distances through estates to get to the bus stops in the first place.


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    #802
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The ideal spacing for bus stops is 400m apart

    says who? Seems excessively close, 400m in the CC may be suitable but outside that it seems far too short a distance.


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    #803
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,559 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    says who? Seems excessively close, 400m in the CC may be suitable but outside that it seems far too short a distance.

    Says the TfL manual on bus stop design.

    It might seem excessively close for you, but as far as I can recall, the bus service is there for older people too!!!


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    #804
    BuffyBot
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 24,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭BuffyBot


    This thread has meandered way past it's termination point. If a new development occurs, a new thread can be started.


This discussion has been closed.
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