What is the purpose of Route 86?

Propellerhead · 13-12-2006 2:51pm #1

Propellerhead wrote:

What's the point of having a route with one outward run five times a week and no return journey at all?

Xylophonic wrote:

afaik, the 86 was not intended to be a luas feeder!

What on earth is route 86 from Shankill to Sandyford for if it isn't a Luas feeder?

The route was originally implemented in January 1959 as a direct replacement for the Bray to Harcourt Street railway. It has had a chequered history - the route was originally timetabled to take a hour to run from Bray to D'Olier Street via Shankill, Carrickmines, Foxrock, Stillorgan, Dundrum, Milltown and Ranelagh - the stations that were closed with the railway. By 1971 the section from Cabinteely to Bray was abandoned and over the years the service dwindled to maybe four or five buses each way Mondays to Fridays.

Since the introduction of Luas the route has been reconfigured to run from Shankill Church to Sandyford Industrial Estate, but only on a once daily basis Mondays to Fridays and in one direction only.

Can anyone explain why DB bother doing this at all? It mystifies me.

loyatemu · 13-12-2006 3:46pm

are they obliged to keep running it?
they have retired routes and brought them back in the past (most recently the 4 and the 8) - perhaps when the railway was closed some legislation was brought in that guaranteed a replacement bus service?

El Stuntman · 13-12-2006 3:53pm

ahhhh.....nostalgia

the old ghost bus, often spoken of and rumoured to exist but very rarely seen....

Ham'nd'egger · 13-12-2006 7:35pm

El Stuntman wrote:

ahhhh.....nostalgia

the old ghost bus, often spoken of and rumoured to exist but very rarely seen....

I was on the 86 before :P

OTK · 13-12-2006 7:39pm

DB has a collection of routes like this that run infrequently and unreliably. I often see a double decker meandering along some orbital route mostly empty. From a customer's point of view they have zero utility. If you knew the bus would come approximately on time every day that would be OK, but who in their right mind would stand at a bus stop waiting for a service that may or may not show up and that has no subsequent bus should it fail to arrive?

They can't pull services for political reasons so they provide these pretend services that make the route map look more comprehensive.

Does the DoT have to approve every time a route is cancelled or a new one added?

Xylophonic · 13-12-2006 8:25pm

loyatemu wrote:

are they obliged to keep running it?
they have retired routes and brought them back in the past (most recently the 4 and the 8) - perhaps when the railway was closed some legislation was brought in that guaranteed a replacement bus service?

But the 4 which was cancelled in the 80's ran from Cabra (Annamoe Road) to Shelbourne Road. The current one runs from Ballymun to St.Vincents. Similar but not the same.

The 8 was resurected last X-Mas after European Court action DB, chose to operate it with a different routing after Blackrock, so it is also not the exact same route.

The 86 has been cut back due to declining patronage over the past few years. With the increase in frequencies on buses serving Cabinteely and Shankill, there was no need for it.

It never operated the most direct route by going via Dundrum. and so now that it has been cut back to Sandyford yes, it does serve the Luas in Sandyford, but that route does continue into town when finished operating the 86 as a 46A. The section of route 86 between Sandyford and Cabinteely is not well served by buses and so the 86 continues to serve the area.

DB run many buses in the peak hours such as the 115/6/7/8, 127/9, all the Xpresso's to alleviate the loads on other buses and to give other areas eg. Clare Hall, 127 a more direct route to the city.

DB also run routes because they are required too by the local authorities, goverment or grumpy people such as the 51A, 172, 206.

Hope that clears this up

Propellerhead · 14-12-2006 12:47am

Xylophonic wrote:

...snip....
The 86 has been cut back due to declining patronage over the past few years. With the increase in frequencies on buses serving Cabinteely and Shankill, there was no need for it.

It never operated the most direct route by going via Dundrum. and so now that it has been cut back to Sandyford yes, it does serve the Luas in Sandyford, but that route does continue into town when finished operating the 86 as a 46A. The section of route 86 between Sandyford and Cabinteely is not well served by buses and so the 86 continues to serve the area.

snip.....

Hope that clears this up

Not at all to be honest. If there was no need for the route, it shouldn't exist.

You claim that the 86 continues to serve the area. It doesn't. Not in any meaningful way.

There is a gap between Shankill/North Bray and Sandyford which will be ultimately filled by the extension to Luas Line B. Why isn't DB filling the gap in the meantime? Please don't tell me that the 86 is fulfilling any kind of remit - as we have seen with the farce over integrated ticketing, creating integrated transport in this city seems to be like rolling a stone uphill for some (or many?) reasons.

Victor · 14-12-2006 1:02am

Xylophonic wrote:

The 8 was resurected last X-Mas after European Court action DB, chose to operate it with a different routing after Blackrock, so it is also not the exact same route.

What was that about?

Xylophonic · 14-12-2006 1:11am

Yeah but as I said the 86 did serve the area well. But eventually only the morning journeys inbound were worth operating and then, it was noticed that it never really carried beyond Sandyford. Also the fact that before it was curtailed it had the same time departure from Shankill to City Centre and so when the luas started the 86 literally mirrored the luas from Sandyford inbound, and so it was probably seen as a goos time to curtail it.

Xylophonic · 14-12-2006 1:13am

Victor wrote:

What was that about?

The legal action was taken by older residents of the Dalkey area who felt they were entitled to a bus service and so had the EU Court force DB to reinstate a bus service between Dalkey and the CC

dowlingm · 18-12-2006 4:16pm

xylophonic - do you have a link for that european court action? Google is not giving me anything.

Xylophonic · 18-12-2006 5:05pm

I have only recovered this so far:

Southside People wrote:

THE Dalkey to City Centre No 8 bus service is to be re-introduced following a legal complaint in 2003 to the European Commission against the Irish Government. Councillor Eugene Regan (FG) initiated a campaign in November 2003 to secure the return of the service with a formal complaint to the Commission. Cllr Regan put forward the view that the discontinuation of this service in 2000 by the public bus monopoly, Dublin Bus, was in conflict with EU competition rules.“I promised in the local elections that I would seek the re-instatement of the No 8 through EU intervention,” he said.“I followed up on that promise by lodging the complaint with the European Commission in Brussels against the Irish Government for allowing Dublin Bus to withdraw this service. The Commission took this complaint very seriously.”

Cllr Regan met with senior officials in the Competition Directorate of the European Commission several times over the last two years to discuss the mater.
Following a final meeting earlier this year in Brussels the Commission intervened by writing to the Department of Transport. That intervention of the Commission ultimately brought about the change in policy.“Dublin Bus has confirmed to me that it has applied for, and the Department of Transport has approved, the operation of the Dalkey to Dublin City Centre No. 8 bus service, which is to commence in the next few weeks.”
Cllr Regan pointed out that while the route is slightly changed from the traditional number 8 Route, the service fulfils the essential object of the campaign to have a direct bus link between Dalkey and the City Centre.

The route will serve not only Dalkey and Sandycove, Monkstown and Blackrock, which featured on the traditional route, but other areas such as Glenageary, Sallynoggin and Mounttown, which he said “do not have an adequate service at present”. “The numbers 59 and 59A routes will also continue to link Dalkey, Killiney, Glenageary and Dun Laoghaire,” Mr Regan concluded.

Propellerhead · 23-07-2007 6:45pm

http://www.finnegan-bray.ie/index_files/Page661.htm

Finnegans now do what CIE have refused to do in any meaningful way - provide a link between Bray and Sandyford. Interesting to see how this works out.

The dog jumping into the manger has let the cat in to raid the kitchen.

monument · 23-07-2007 8:34pm

OTK wrote:

DB has a collection of routes like this that run infrequently and unreliably.

lol

spareman · 24-07-2007 9:35pm

I know you folks love to have a pop at DB for wasting your money and all that crap, put on this occasion Im sorry to inform you the reason why the 86 still runs is because it would be running empty back to Donnybrook garage anyway, so it makes sense to carry one or two passengers en route.

On another note someone should ask Mr Finnegan in bray why he doesn't run his nitelink service midweek, seen as how he has the licence, and DB were refused a licence to run nitelinks to bray because he has the licence. Its the poor people of bray that have to walk from Shankill mon to thurs I feel sorry for.

ray900 · 24-07-2007 9:43pm

Propellerhead wrote:

Finnegans now do what CIE have refused to do in any meaningful way - provide a link between Bray and Sandyford. Interesting to see how this works out.

Even more interesting to see how long it lasts. Every time I've seen those little old red buses running up and down the N11, they've been virtually empty.

24-07-2007 11:38pm

Xylophonic wrote:

DB also run routes because they are required too by the local authorities, goverment or grumpy people such as the 51A, 172, 206.

Hope that clears this up

Often wondered about the 51A and the 206. Absolutely useless in my opinion. I don't get it though, the 51, 51B and 51C all go from the city centre out towards Clondalkin while the 51A goes from the city centre to Beaumont.

Xylophonic · 25-07-2007 1:15am

Im expect to get bashed as a spotter after this but whatever:

In depth detail

It lies in a system of numbering which took place YEARS ago where the plan was that the plain number was a southside route and a version with the letter 'A' would be on the northside.

Another example:
44 City-Enniskerry (Southside)
44A City-Mount Prospect Ave. (Northside) - now consumed by the 130.

The system, thankfully, didn't last long and the 51/51A scenario is the last of its kind. Similar to the 17/17A which also oddly enough in the 1970's, were to be joined to form a C-Shaped route around Dublin City, 17A was only a temrpoarray route in the beginning but it's still here nearly 40 years on.

Ham'nd'egger · 25-07-2007 1:25am

Karsini wrote:

Often wondered about the 51A and the 206. Absolutely useless in my opinion. I don't get it though, the 51, 51B and 51C all go from the city centre out towards Clondalkin while the 51A goes from the city centre to Beaumont.

That was to do with old routes and the numbering schemes, where the 51A is concerned. This link will throw some light on it all. Can't help you on the 206 except to say that if the route is licenced by the Department of Transport, then that is the route it has to follow.

25-07-2007 1:29am

Hamndegger wrote:

That was to do with old routes and the numbering schemes, where the 51A is concerned. This link will throw some light on it all. Can't help you on the 206 except to say that if the route is licenced by the Department of Transport, then that is the route it has to follow.

Yeah was just having a look there. The thing I find odd about the 206 is that it terminates earlier than the 79 but otherwise it's identical to it.

KC61 · 25-07-2007 8:20am

Karsini wrote:

Yeah was just having a look there. The thing I find odd about the 206 is that it terminates earlier than the 79 but otherwise it's identical to it.

The 206 was provided by Dublin Bus to offer the elderly people in the Drumfinn Road area a bus service to the shops/Thomas Street.

However, looking at the timetable as it is now, they'd want to be pretty quick on their feet!!!

Similarly the 51A and 172 exist due to pressure from local politicians to provide these services. Indeed the 51A was destined for the chop until a certain B. Ahern intervened, and the 48A is still in existence due to Tom Kitt's intervention.

Meanwhile there are other routes in the city that have serious undercapacity! It really is daft.

We also have a situation where the 14/14A and 48A all are allowed 1 hour 15 minutes in the off-peak to complete a journey, which takes a maximum of 55 minutes, and usually 50. Thus buses/drivers sit idling for up to 25 minutes at each terminus after each trip, when, with more imaginative and realistic scheduling better utilisation could be achieved of the resources to free up a bus or two for use elsewhere!!

As I understand it the 86 is primarily there for schoolchildren who use an alternative service on the return.

KC61 · 25-07-2007 8:22am

Propellerhead wrote:

http://www.finnegan-bray.ie/index_files/Page661.htm

Finnegans now do what CIE have refused to do in any meaningful way - provide a link between Bray and Sandyford. Interesting to see how this works out.

The dog jumping into the manger has let the cat in to raid the kitchen.

Reports on www.garaiste.com suggest that loadings have not been great on this service, but perhaps it has picked up lately?

bk · 25-07-2007 9:41am

KC61 wrote:

Similarly the 51A and 172 exist due to pressure from local politicians to provide these services. Indeed the 51A was destined for the chop until a certain B. Ahern intervened, and the 48A is still in existence due to Tom Kitt's intervention.

The funny thing about the 51A route is that a lot of new apartments have been built along its route and there are more to come, so if there were more buses on the route it could actually be quite successful.

If the route was changed a small bit (down the whole length of Grace Park Road and then down Richmond Road, an area which has a couple thousand new apartments built in the last year and more to come), then I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be as busy as the 123 that runs about the same length and is very busy.

Then it could also help the 123 along Ballybough road, an area where people often get left at the bus stops as the 123 is already full by the end of Philipsburgh Avenue.

Ste.phen · 25-07-2007 10:18am

bk wrote:

The funny thing about the 51A route is that a lot of new apartments have been built along its route and there are more to come, so if there were more buses on the route it could actually be quite successful.

If the route was changed a small bit (down the whole length of Grace Park Road and then down Richmond Road, an area which has a couple thousand new apartments built in the last year and more to come), then I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be as busy as the 123 that runs about the same length and is very busy.

Then it could also help the 123 along Ballybough road, an area where people often get left at the bus stops as the 123 is already full by the end of Philipsburgh Avenue.

Wouldn't that be quite a gamble to take if the demand doesn't pick up?

My most recent experience of the 51a was about a year ago, where it took approximately twice the time to get from Collins Ave to Griffith Ave as the 16 does at the same time of day.

It might be useful for people ON Grace Park road, or just off it, but for people before that point it's just a lot slower and less regular than the 16 / 20B.

Your idea to route via Richmond Road is interesting, but is Richmond road not a virtual standstill at peak times? (I'm not actually sure, I just imagine the winding nature of it doesn't lend well to buses)

bk · 25-07-2007 8:34pm

Igy wrote:

Wouldn't that be quite a gamble to take if the demand doesn't pick up?

Of course, but that is true of any new bus route, if you don't try, you'll never know *.

* Obviously you first do a study of a population in the catchment area and alternatives.

Igy wrote:

It might be useful for people ON Grace Park road, or just off it, but for people before that point it's just a lot slower and less regular than the 16 / 20B.

Yes, there are good alternatives for people living above Grace Park Road, however it is shocking that there is no good bus service, servicing the people of Grace Park Road and Richmond Road. Both of these areas have recently seen massive apartment developments and must have thousands of more potential customers.

I see no reason why such a service wouldn't be as busy as the near by 123 which runs a similar length. The 123 serves the relatively low density housing estates along Philipsbourgh avenue, Marino, Charlemont and Griffith Avenue.

A slightly redesigned 51A route could serve all the new apartment developments and housing estates along Grace Park Road and Richmond Road, I wouldn't be surprised if the catchment area was actually larger then the successful 123.

Igy wrote:

Your idea to route via Richmond Road is interesting, but is Richmond road not a virtual standstill at peak times? (I'm not actually sure, I just imagine the winding nature of it doesn't lend well to buses)

What road isn't at a standstill at peak times?

Alternatively you could go right at the bottom of Grace Park Road onto Richmond Road and then onto the Drumcondra road, but then it would only partly serve the new apartments on Richmond Road, but not too bad, only about a 5 minute walk for them.

Ste.phen · 26-07-2007 12:59pm

bk wrote:

Yes, there are good alternatives for people living above Grace Park Road, however it is shocking that there is no good bus service, servicing the people of Grace Park Road and Richmond Road. Both of these areas have recently seen massive apartment developments and must have thousands of more potential customers.

I see no reason why such a service wouldn't be as busy as the near by 123 which runs a similar length. The 123 serves the relatively low density housing estates along Philipsbourgh avenue, Marino, Charlemont and Griffith Avenue.

A slightly redesigned 51A route could serve all the new apartment developments and housing estates along Grace Park Road and Richmond Road, I wouldn't be surprised if the catchment area was actually larger then the successful 123.

Point taken, It's really up to Dublin Bus to be proactive about it, but based on what happened with the 41X reroute, I Don't suppose they'll be in much of a hurry to try anything new unless it's clearly needed.

Victor · 29-07-2007 1:19am

KC61 wrote:

Similarly the 51A and 172 exist due to pressure from local politicians to provide these services.

Isn't the 172 there as the Museum Link between the various parts of the National Museum?

MiniD · 29-07-2007 11:13am

Victor wrote:

Isn't the 172 there as the Museum Link between the various parts of the National Museum?

Initially this was the purpose of the route, but then the road layout was changed on the quays, the James Joyce bridge opened and the roads around the Collins Barracks were dug up for Luas. The 172 was re-routed to run up Manor Street.

Apart from the peak time departures, the route carries little or no passengers. Despite this, the bus is operated by double deck vehicles and has a Sunday service. This is not helped by poor customer information at bus stops and badly dressed buses displaying incorrect or wrong destinations on the scrolls.

Victor · 30-07-2007 1:07am

MiniD wrote:

Apart from the peak time departures, the route carries little or no passengers. Despite this, the bus is operated by double deck vehicles and has a Sunday service.

Dublin Bus need permission to increase their fleet. Going to all double deckers means more seats for the same number of vehicles.

MiniD · 30-07-2007 10:40am

Indeed, it's great that a minibus can be replaced with a double decker. It just screams bad management when there is an empty double decker floating around town all day on the 172 when there are full loadings on the 123 and 130 where a WV midibus is in use. It would make more sense to see a WV sent to Phibsboro to run this route.

dowlingm · 30-07-2007 4:35pm

Doesn't DB keep such ghost routes going so that they can eventually nudge it into the area they want to serve rather than do a full new route application?

What is the purpose of Route 86?

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