Aloofness of Irish people.

kneemos · 02-01-2013 8:33pm #1

Moncrief was on about it this afternoon and it is certainly something I have experienced over the years,people will welcome you and talk and be friendly but becoming part of a social group can be very difficult,particularly if your not Irish.What would other peoples experiences be of becoming part of an established social group?

LivelineDipso · 02-01-2013 8:41pm

Go away. Shoo!

Bejubby · 02-01-2013 8:42pm

Your a black sheep aren't you.

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Mehehhehehhe

theteal · 02-01-2013 8:44pm

just buy a round, sorted

woodoo · 02-01-2013 8:46pm

Cliques are they way here. It can be difficult alright. But not everyone is part of a clique though.

Gauss · 02-01-2013 8:49pm

Moncrieff can be an arrogant twat at times. I do like him usually, but he has a tendency to be very condescending.

LivelineDipso · 02-01-2013 8:49pm

I wonder how these Irish cliques came about? Seems unique to us.

cantdecide · 02-01-2013 8:50pm

If you're mad or sound, you'll be grand. If your madness or soundness aren't your most notable traits, you're in for a rough time. I think it's one of these social currency things...

xLexie · 02-01-2013 8:52pm

woodoo wrote: »

Cliques are they way here. It can be difficult alright. But not everyone is part of a clique though.

They're the unpopular people and it would be social suicide to befriend those, obviously.

JohnMarston · 02-01-2013 8:56pm

kneemos wrote: »

Moncrief was on about it this afternoon and it is certainly something I have experienced over the years,people will welcome you and talk and be friendly but becoming part of a social group can be very difficult,particularly if your not Irish.What would other peoples experiences be of becoming part of an established social group?

I would imagine that is a universal situation. Someone moves to X but finds it hard to integrate with people from X on account of being from Y. Even fellow Irish people find it difficult to break into social groups consisting of other Irish.

Miss Lockhart · 02-01-2013 8:57pm

What's the difference between a clique and a group of friends?

galwayrush · 02-01-2013 9:00pm

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

What's the difference between a clique and a group of friends?

Looking out or looking in.;)

statesaver · 02-01-2013 9:00pm

Thank fuk my college days are over and i don't have to make friends, i'm in my 30's and don't care anymore.

woodoo · 02-01-2013 9:01pm

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

What's the difference between a clique and a group of friends?

Not much but it becomes a clique if they don't really welcome anyone else in.

Fox_In_Socks · 02-01-2013 9:07pm

JohnMarston wrote: »

I would imagine that is a universal situation. Someone moves to X but finds it hard to integrate with people from X on account of being from Y. Even fellow Irish people find it difficult to break into social groups consisting of other Irish.

Stop talking sense! It's banned here.:pac:

statesaver wrote: »

Thank fuk my college days are over and i don't have to make friends, i'm in my 30's and don't care anymore.

That's the spirit. Just that and inevitable decline.:pac:

For those who do say that Irish are superficially friendly, but are hard to get tie down to a friendship, have ye done better outside of Ireland? What do you think this?

Me, I wouldn't have close friends, but that's mainly because I don't make an effort to instigate things with acquaintences more. I wouldn't put it down to me or them being Irish. I could move to Germany next week and find that because I'm in a new country and without family/routine, I would have to make more of an effort and so it would seem that friends are easier to find.

Miss Lockhart · 02-01-2013 9:08pm

woodoo wrote: »

Not much but it becomes a clique if they don't really welcome anyone else in.

I can't say I really see this a lot tbh. People "welcome" others whose company they enjoy and with whom they have mutual interests. I haven't seen people excluded since I was in school.

And I say that as somebody who has no friends. I personally don't think it's difficult to make friends in Ireland - I'm just not interested in them.

Daroxtar · 02-01-2013 9:11pm

Be Aloof. Your country needs Loofs

woodoo · 02-01-2013 9:13pm

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I can't say I really see this a lot tbh. People "welcome" others whose company they enjoy and with whom they have mutual interests. I haven't seen people excluded since I was in school.

And I say that as somebody who has no friends. I personally don't think it's difficult to make friends in Ireland - I'm just not interested in them.

People only really refer to cliques when they are the ones rejected from a group

JohnMarston · 02-01-2013 9:14pm

Daroxtar wrote: »

Be Aloof. Your country needs Loofs

Who are you calling a Loof?

imitation · 02-01-2013 9:19pm

Irish people don't particularly strike me as anything different to other nations for having friends, in fact I think at the country folk seem to have massive social groups(not all necessarily best friends for life).

I think if there is one difference its that we are probably bad about "talking" with friends depression and other heavy life matters.

Madam_X · 02-01-2013 9:20pm

I think this is just said in order to go against the grain and pick faults in us as a nation (has become fashionable in recent years). Irish people in general are extremely friendly. Cliches/stereotypes, while certainly not always gospel, do have a basis in reality.
Obviously you'll get some aloof Irish people and unpleasant incidents - as you would anywhere, but overall... it's disingenuous to say this place is frosty and unfriendly.

summerskin · 02-01-2013 9:25pm

Madam_X wrote: »

I think this is just said in order to go against the grain and pick faults in us as a nation (has become fashionable in recent years). Irish people in general are extremely friendly. Cliches/stereotypes, while certainly not always gospel, do have a basis in reality.
Obviously you'll get some aloof Irish people and unpleasant incidents - as you would anywhere, but overall... it's disingenuous to say this place is frosty and unfriendly.

I would never say the Irish are unfriendly, however it is usually very superficial I find.

I've lived in various parts of the world and made friends, real friends, wherever I have been. Except for Ireland. Here I have dozens of acquaintances, all good for a day in the pub etc, but no friends. Nobody to talk to about deeper issues, personal issues. It just doesn't seem to be the done thing here.

I usually end up phoning friends in the UK or France when I want to have a proper conversation.

CreepingDeath · 02-01-2013 9:33pm

kneemos wrote: »

...something I have experienced over the years,people will welcome you and talk and be friendly but becoming part of a social group can be very difficult,particularly if your not Irish.

Social groups are hierarchal, just like animal groups on nature programmes.

If a group do not consider you their equal, then they're not likely to make the effort to include you.
What bonds the group together?
Is it age/maturity, length of time working together, sports, loads of nights out in the pub/history? If you identify that, you'll know what you're lacking.

If you can't go out and get hammered in a pub with the group, have a bit of craic and engage properly with them in conversation then you're not going to be one of the inner circle in the group.

Introverts can't expect extroverts to make the effort to carry them all the time.

Fr_Dougal · 02-01-2013 9:35pm

JohnMarston wrote: »

Who are you calling a Loof?

This guy.

Fox_In_Socks · 02-01-2013 9:37pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

This guy.

I had a shower. A shower that one day, would make me and all God's children clean

cantdecide · 02-01-2013 9:37pm

summerskin wrote: »

I would never say the Irish are unfriendly, however it is usually very superficial I find.

I've lived in various parts of the world and made friends, real friends, wherever I have been. Except for Ireland. Here I have dozens of acquaintances, all good for a day in the pub etc, but no friends. Nobody to talk to about deeper issues, personal issues. It just doesn't seem to be the done thing here.

I usually end up phoning friends in the UK or France when I want to have a proper conversation.

Also my experience- hence my mad/ sound theory. If you try to have an actual conversation with a lot of Irish people, they think you're weird!!

ordinary_girl · 02-01-2013 9:38pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

If you can't go out and get hammered in a pub with the group, have a bit of craic and engage properly with them in conversation then you're not going to be one of the inner circle in the group.

This. I found that I wasn't really clicking with the people I worked with, they all had history etc and I felt I wasn't really breaking through into the clique. Once I started going on staff nights out with them and getting pissed I actually ended up becoming great friends with most of them! And who says socialising in Ireland centres around drink?:rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight · 02-01-2013 9:41pm

TBH even if you are Irish and you go to live in Dundalk or Sligo you'll still be a blow in after 30 years

Wanderer2010 · 02-01-2013 9:42pm

Irish people can be very very cliquey, especially groups of young people in late 20s early 30s, it happens when people who have lived or worked together for a long time and have no intention of moving on just settling into a rock solid routine and not allowing anyone else in. Other groups can be friendly enough but they dont want to make any connection with you outside a superficial "where you from, do you drink here much"? etc..

Zebra3 · 02-01-2013 9:48pm

There's a clique of fit foreign birds down my local that won't let me into their group.

Racists. :mad:

newmug · 02-01-2013 9:54pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Social groups are hierarchal, just like animal groups on nature programmes.

If a group do not consider you their equal, then they're not likely to make the effort to include you.
What bonds the group together?
Is it age/maturity, length of time working together, sports, loads of nights out in the pub/history? If you identify that, you'll know what you're lacking.

If you can't go out and get hammered in a pub with the group, have a bit of craic and engage properly with them in conversation then you're not going to be one of the inner circle in the group.

Introverts can't expect extroverts to make the effort to carry them all the time.

^^^^^This.

What makes people think they're entitled to belong to a group? What did you ever contribute to that group? In my core group of friends, we all went to the same primary school together. Most of us are related. We all got in trouble together, we all had mad adventures together. Then when we went into the big, bad secondary school where lads from different towns clashed, we stuck together. And that has stayed prettymuch the same through adult life.

The ironic thing is though, I find most cliques stick together because they see themselves as outsiders! And sure who'd want to be friends with us anyway!!?!?!?!!

As for having friends to "open up" to, you dont do that with acquaintances, you just dont. You wouldn't even do it with your core group. The way I see it, to do that, you would need to be on the same level of trust with somebody that you would give your bank details to, ie wife / husband, mother. Would you do that with aquaintances? No way!

And this is not an "Irish" thing. Its just human nature. Maybe, if its your fisrt time away from home, family and friends etc, you might just be noticing it a bit more.

dd972 · 02-01-2013 10:00pm

Have to agree that the OP has a good point, a lot of the famed Irish friendliness is just frothy gush, one workplace I was at was particularly full of this, people full of hail fellow well met '' I've got your back '' BS.

I think that extroverts who excel in this sort of hot air fit in much better in Irish society, introversion is regarded as suspect.

Madam_X · 02-01-2013 10:01pm

Yeh, "cliques" form naturally - it's not some great conspiracy or even a conscious thing. Obviously there are established dynamics and bonds; it's up to the newcomer to make an effort if they wish to be a part. They can expect a certain degree of welcome of course, but to be immersed in the group immediately - that's not the way things go, and it's not intentional. Sometimes the exclusion is only in the outsider's head. Now obviously it's unacceptable for a group to just put up a barrier from day one and never to back down, but I'd be surprised if that were common.

Miss Lockhart · 02-01-2013 10:02pm

dd972 wrote: »

Have to agree that the OP has a good point, a lot of the famed Irish friendliness is just frothy gush, one workplace I was at was particularly full of this, people full of hail fellow well met '' I've got your back '' BS.

I think that extroverts who excel in this sort of hot air fit in much better in Irish society, introversion is regarded as suspect.

Really? I think maybe shyness is met with some suspicion here - but not introversion. I'm introverted but not at all shy. I have no problems socially in my day to day life, and like I said, I think it's easy to make friends.

previous user · 02-01-2013 10:05pm

kneemos wrote: »

Moncrief was on about it this afternoon and it is certainly something I have experienced over the years,people will welcome you and talk and be friendly but becoming part of a social group can be very difficult,particularly if your not Irish.What would other peoples experiences be of becoming part of an established social group?

Thread should be retitled alloofness of Irish women.

newmug · 02-01-2013 10:10pm

dd972 wrote: »

Have to agree that the OP has a good point, a lot of the famed Irish friendliness is just frothy gush, one workplace I was at was particularly full of this, people full of hail fellow well met '' I've got your back '' BS.

I think that extroverts who excel in this sort of hot air fit in much better in Irish society, introversion is regarded as suspect.

I found Americans to be the nationality most guilty of this, especially New Yorkers. Fake, over-friendlyness. Almost to the point of making fools of themselves.

pragmatic1 · 02-01-2013 11:02pm

Irish people are generally very friendly. A lot of us can be clannish though. It's why ever neighbouring village/town/suburb in the country almost always have a rivalry with each other. We're tribal in nature.

Jimoslimos · 02-01-2013 11:15pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Social groups are hierarchal, just like animal groups on nature programmes.

If a group do not consider you their equal, then they're not likely to make the effort to include you...

These two sentences contradict each other.

You claim animal and human social groups are hierarchal, yet then go on about equality in a group setting.

In animal settings, newcomers will either enter at the top (think lions, wolves, alpha male type, etc) or at the very bottom. I've seen firsthand horses be rather vicious towards any new horse introduced. Very rarely will animals integrate at an equal level - certainly not initially.

JohnMarston · 02-01-2013 11:22pm

Madam_X wrote: »

Yeh, "cliques" form naturally - it's not some great conspiracy or even a conscious thing. Obviously there are established dynamics and bonds; it's up to the newcomer to make an effort if they wish to be a part. They can expect a certain degree of welcome of course, but to be immersed in the group immediately - that's not the way things go, and it's not intentional.

I agree with that, the social contract between yourself and others does go both ways. Its made easier if you have a common interest with the group.

Zebra3 · 02-01-2013 11:32pm

newmug wrote: »

Most of us are related.

Sounds a bit inbred. :eek:

Fox_In_Socks · 02-01-2013 11:35pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Sounds a bit inbred. :eek:

As long as they don't end up like Friends, where they all get off with one another, then they'll be grand.

anhedonia · 02-01-2013 11:38pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Sounds a bit inbred. :eek:

inbred, related and clannish.

languagenerd · 02-01-2013 11:39pm

I think sometimes shyness comes off as aloofness as well. If you've always had the same friends and hung out in the same group, it can be hard to know how to act around a newcomer.

It's also always harder to break into a pre-established group, no matter where you are. If five Irish people who didn't know each other (or anyone else) all met abroad at some course or new job or something, they'd probably become friends a lot quicker than at home. I made some really good friends in very short space of time in Spain, whereas to get to the same level of friendship here, it would take months. But I don't think it's necessarily an Irish thing, it happens with all nationalities and all humans...

Gee_G · 02-01-2013 11:43pm

The few posts I've picked up on here is people saying nobody to talk to, about deep and personal things. I think it takes a lot of people quite a while to get to this stage of friendship. Coming from someone who lives in the country, everybody knows everybody and you don't want to have everyone knowing your business. So it's easier to keep this people at a distance for a while to suss them out, see if you can trust them!

OnTheCouch · 02-01-2013 11:57pm

I have to agree with the OP.

Irish people are extremely friendly up to a point. When it comes to helping newcomers settle in, giving directions and of course when in a pub-style crowded situation, we are generally very very welcoming and go out of our way to make the other person/people feel at home.

Having had the pleasure of knowing many foreign residents who have lived here over the years, plus tourists, there is a clear distinction in my mind. The ones that travel to Ireland for tourism and/or short stays, generally believe the Irish to be extremely friendly, having generally been restricted to meeting tourist guides, museum assistants and mingling after having drunken 'craic' with others in Temple Bar and other such areas. Hence I believe Irish people generally have such a good reputation for being friendly abroad for this very reason.

However, those that stay here for much longer periods tend to almost exclusively hang out and socialise with other foreigners. This can in part be explained by the language problems...for those who do not have an extremely good grasp of English, it is fairly daunting hanging out with a native group, where there are so many nuances and examples of word play going flying about that it becomes quite intimidating. Moreover, the general experience is not really that pleasant and hammers home the point that their level of English isn't as good as they thought it was. And a dent to one's linguistic self-esteem when socialising is never great, especially when you can easily associate with other non-native speakers, understand everything (due to the much simpler level being used) and probably have a great time. Of course this can be applied to any language, but the way English is spoken in Ireland is heavily dependent on idioms and phrases that don't really make a lot of sense if they are taken literally. Eg 'Going down the shop are you' instead of 'Are you going down the shop.'

In addition, I do think Irish are very clannish. Commonalities are hugely important, such as sports teams, schools, colleges etc. As others have mentioned, even many Irish nationals are ostracised from certain groups, so what chance do Pablo from Brazil and Carlos from Spain have of fitting in? The only examples I have seen that bend this rule are when a female foreigner goes out with an Irish local or a foreigner takes up a team sport such as football or rugby. I don't think I need to explain why these are the exceptions to the rule.

I believe many foreigners are quite shocked as well by the amount of slagging that goes on which generally demonstrates 'friendship' and really don't know what to say or do. Although in fairness to the Irish this is quite prevalent in England also.

The saying goes 'familiarity breeds contempt.' This may well be true, but in Ireland it is perhaps not as true as other places.

CreepingDeath · 03-01-2013 12:08am

Jimoslimos wrote: »

These two sentences contradict each other.

You claim animal and human social groups are hierarchal, yet then go on about equality in a group setting.

Not quite what I was saying, no.
In the group setting as you put it, there will be social hierarchy of alphas, sidekicks, etc.

When I mentioned "If a group do not consider you their equal, then they're not likely to make the effort to include you...", I meant that you would only be included if you met the groups social expectations.
Eg. follow a certain football club, work a certain amount of years in a company, accepted by enough existing members etc...
Once in the group, there is an intra-group hierarchy.

Although groups will also have their own hierarchal perception of other groups.
In a company, sales might think themselves better than finance, engineering better than quality control, etc.

Although social groups don't grow constantly... it will get to a stage where the group reaches the right point, eg. 10 people going out to the pub every Friday, and they don't need other members. It's more likely that the lower members of the group would include new people to elevate their position, but as the group numbers increase a split is more likely.

On a side note, teasing and bullying within a group are a natural way of a group to try to make the members conform to their collective range of expectations.

Jimoslimos wrote: »

In animal settings, newcomers will either enter at the top (think lions, wolves, alpha male type, etc) or at the very bottom. I've seen firsthand horses be rather vicious towards any new horse introduced. Very rarely will animals integrate at an equal level - certainly not initially.

Interesting point... although in human social groups, I imagine a group which has a wide range of members of differing social skills could find a new member who walks in mid-level.

BBDBB · 03-01-2013 12:13am

In line with recent business ideas from the media industry Ive decided to start a list of charges for anyone who wishes to be my friend, €300 a pop per conversation, if its a simple greeting exchange then that reduces to €200, maybe €150 for regulars

I suggest you all do the same, we'll soon all be riding the Celtic Tiger again

:erm:

newmug · 03-01-2013 1:41am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Sounds a bit inbred. :eek:

Fox_In_Socks wrote: »

As long as they don't end up like Friends, where they all get off with one another, then they'll be grand.

anhedonia wrote: »

inbred, related and clannish.

Were you's all born in test tubes? Do you's not have relations?:rolleyes:

Eve_Dublin · 03-01-2013 2:01am

Madam_X wrote: »

I think this is just said in order to go against the grain and pick faults in us as a nation (has become fashionable in recent years). Irish people in general are extremely friendly. Cliches/stereotypes, while certainly not always gospel, do have a basis in reality.
Obviously you'll get some aloof Irish people and unpleasant incidents - as you would anywhere, but overall... it's disingenuous to say this place is frosty and unfriendly.

I'm blown away by how friendly people are here. It's a friendly country, no doubt about it.

cantdecide wrote: »

Also my experience- hence my mad/ sound theory. If you try to have an actual conversation with a lot of Irish people, they think you're weird!!

Doesn't sound just mean nice though?

I live in Madrid and find the same situation there. I've 2 Spanish friends after 3 and a half years there and one of them is my boyfriend. I think it's simply down to the fact that people my age (30s) have made their friends and probably aren't looking for new ones and already have the ones they've had for years if they're local. My friends are all ex pats (only one Irish friend). That's how it is in most cities and it's very hard to meet locals. Someone gives you directions....you're hardly going to ask them out for a drink after that, are you? It's difficult in most cities to get to know the locals.

Friendships are a little trickier to make as you get older anyway- you get pickier and your criteria of what you're looking for becomes more select.

newmug · 03-01-2013 2:47am

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Doesn't sound just mean nice though?

No:rolleyes:

Its kinda like a mixture of wholesome and down-to-earth, but at the same time being a no bull, no sh1t taking leader, who you are surprised to find is also nice.

For example, Pat Rabitte is nice. He's a nice enough man. But Paidi O'Shea was sound!

mikemac1 · 03-01-2013 3:00am

I'm not unfriendly, I'm realy not

The Argentinian and Spanish lads in work, well they are a bit much and full on

Heading home in the evening and they'd clap you on the back.
Do them a favour and they'd be thanking you and putting their hands on your shoulder
Come in next morning and they'd want to shake your hand

I just stand back, personal space please

Oh and in before the ghey comments

Aloofness of Irish people.

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