Scientific possibility of an afterlife? ...of somesort

Zubeneschamali · 21-08-2014 4:05pm

smacl wrote: »

It is clearly unreasonable for any religion to make statements about the fate of those people that do not subscribe to their religion, yet most religions do so and hence necessarily contradict one another.

I must disagree here. All of these religions purport to be statements about reality, not just about their members beliefs.

It doesn't make much sense to suppose that all life is part of a cycle of reincarnation, and then add that this doesn't apply to people who don't believe in Buddhism. If that were true, all that Buddha would have had to do to release everyone from the cycle of reincarnation would be to keep his yap shut.

Zubeneschamali · 21-08-2014 4:07pm

hinault wrote: »

shure.:rolleyes:

Let me remind you:

A. I have exactly €1000 in my pocket.

B. I have exactly 20c in my pocket.

C. These statements contradict, and at most one of them is true.

Since I actually have €85, A is false, B is false and C is true.

hinault · 21-08-2014 4:15pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Let me remind you:

A. I have exactly €1000 in my pocket.

B. I have exactly 20c in my pocket.

C. These statements contradict, and at most one of them is true.

Since I actually have €85, A is false, B is false and C is true.

shure.

How do you define exactly, exactly?

Zubeneschamali · 21-08-2014 4:17pm

hinault wrote: »

shure.

How do you define exactly, exactly?

Consult a dictionary, first definition is usually the main one.

hinault · 21-08-2014 4:21pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Consult a dictionary

shure.

Bridging the gap between your strawman definition and the dictionary definition
will always be a problem one suspects.

robindch · 21-08-2014 4:25pm

hinault wrote: »

Which goes to prove that you lied the first time around:p

No unparliamentary language please.

hinault · 21-08-2014 4:28pm

robindch wrote: »

No unparliamentary language please.

Point taken.
I incorrectly assumed that the :P indicated the lighthearted nature of my reply?

Apologies!

robindch · 21-08-2014 5:18pm

hinault wrote: »

I incorrectly assumed that the :P indicated the lighthearted nature of my reply?

Indeedy - not everybody will appreciate being called a liar, even if the caller's grinning while doing it

smacl · 21-08-2014 5:27pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I must disagree here. All of these religions purport to be statements about reality, not just about their members beliefs.

That still doesn't make them reasonable, and a cynic such as myself might see the whole heaven & hell thing as a rather unsavoury recruiting gimmick for the scared and gullible

tommy2bad · 21-08-2014 5:29pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You are using some definition of "true" with which I am unfamiliar.

Yeah I went all post modern their!
True can mean factual or it can mean true as I see it. It's a weasel word in many ways as it applies to things in a particular context. What's true in a christian context is a falsehood in a Muslim context and vise versa.

As this is a thread about the possibility of afterlife, true for a christian is not the same truth as scientific truth or Hindu truth.

As I said without evidence we are all taking about possibility within a context. Yours might be new age mysticism, mine might be the possibility from some mad extrapolation of string theory but we both hold our truth to be obvious.

tommy2bad · 21-08-2014 5:36pm

smacl wrote: »

But religions such as Christianity make statements about the fate after death of those people who do not subscribe to their religion, such as Buddhists for example. Specifically, that they will spend an eternity in Hell or perhaps purgatory. This contradicts the Buddhists' own beliefs, who believe that everyone, including the Christians, get re-incarnated. These are contradictory statements, such that one set of people must be wrong. Similarly, Islam states that all the Christians and all the Buddhists are bound for hell.

It is clearly unreasonable for any religion to make statements about the fate of those people that do not subscribe to their religion, yet most religions do so and hence necessarily contradict one another.

Actually Christianity makes no such claim, what happens non Christians is none of our business in classical christian understanding. It's up to God to deal with them as He see fit. If that means burning them for all eternity we take no pleasure in that fact.:P

hinault · 21-08-2014 5:47pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

True can mean factual or it can mean true as I see it. .

The truth should be complete and unchangeable.

More often than not "truth as I see it" is highly subjective.

swampgas · 21-08-2014 5:51pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

Actually Christianity makes no such claim, what happens non Christians is none of our business in classical christian understanding. It's up to God to deal with them as He see fit. If that means burning them for all eternity we take no pleasure in that fact.:P

And yet your average human with an ounce of empathy will feel a twinge of sympathy for the billions cast into hell for no better reason than being born in the wrong place at the wrong time. Such casual disregard for the unsaved is a very unattractive feature of many religious people.

smacl · 21-08-2014 5:52pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

As this is a thread about the possibility of afterlife, true for a christian is not the same truth as scientific truth or Hindu truth.

Nice. Context is, of course, everything. I suppose we should differentiate between what is demonstrably verifiable, and subjectively held belief. If you are willing to accept something is true purely on the basis of someone telling you it is true, you've just taken on an article of faith. Belief in an afterlife rather requires this, as there is nothing whatsoever to demonstrate it exists.

smacl · 21-08-2014 5:56pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

Actually Christianity makes no such claim, what happens non Christians is none of our business in classical christian understanding. It's up to God to deal with them as He see fit. If that means burning them for all eternity we take no pleasure in that fact.:P

Wow, when did that change? I spend a childhood in the 70's being told I was going to burn in hell by various Christians on a regular basis. Mind you, they didn't seem to know the difference between atheist and pagan back then either. Surely if Christians didn't care what non-Christians or ex-Christians thought, blasphemy and apostasy shouldn't exist in their eyes either? Also, what exactly is a heathen from a Christian perspective?

hinault · 21-08-2014 6:08pm

swampgas wrote: »

And yet your average human with an ounce of empathy will feel a twinge of sympathy for the billions cast into hell for no better reason than being born in the wrong place at the wrong time. Such casual disregard for the unsaved is a very unattractive feature of many religious people.

Christianity teaches that it is each persons behaviour and thoughts which will determine their eternal fate. Put simply each person puts themselves for eternity in Hell by their own behaviour in this life. Those who are in hell choose to be there.

It is a terrifying thought to contemplate being kept in a place of torment without any chance whatsoever of release from that place for eternity.

swampgas · 21-08-2014 6:10pm

hinault wrote: »

Christianity teaches that it is each persons behaviour and thoughts which will determine their eternal fate. Put simply each person puts themselves for eternity in Hell by their own behaviour in this life. Those who are in hell choose to be there.

It is a terrifying thought to contemplate being kept in a place of torment without any chance whatsoever of release from that place for eternity.

Christianity might teach that, but it is still a repellent thought to most people. The idea that a creator would choose to create a world in which so many would end up in "perpetual torment" is abhorrent to me.

tommy2bad · 21-08-2014 6:37pm

swampgas wrote: »

And yet your average human with an ounce of empathy will feel a twinge of sympathy for the billions cast into hell for no better reason than being born in the wrong place at the wrong time. Such casual disregard for the unsaved is a very unattractive feature of many religious people.

Absolutely, from 'left behind' thinking to pitying the damned, it all smacks of elitism and revenge fantasy. And not so subtle bullying and threatening.

Zubeneschamali · 21-08-2014 8:27pm

hinault wrote: »

It is a terrifying thought to contemplate being kept in a place of torment without any chance whatsoever of release from that place for eternity.

I think it's a pretty comical notion, that the creator of the Universe has got no better plan than to torture the ghosts of jumped up apes for an eternity.

Kidchameleon · 21-08-2014 8:49pm

nagirrac wrote: »

The materialist reductionist position, which is the predominant position by far in neuroscience today, claims that all conscious experience is caused by, and not just correlates to, neural activity. As Francis Crick said "you are nothing but a pack of neurons".

This would suggest as the OP has stated, that if we had the technology to build a human brain with exactly the same neural network as yours for example, and keep it fed and watered with a similar environment to what you are experiencing, it would have identical conscious experience to you.

If you find this unbelievable, then you have to consider some other position such as some form of dualism or dual aspect monism.

If someone were able to create a brain, in which emerged a consciousness, would that person have become a God?

hinault · 21-08-2014 9:32pm

swampgas wrote: »

Christianity might teach that, but it is still a repellent thought to most people. The idea that a creator would choose to create a world in which so many would end up in "perpetual torment" is abhorrent to me.

Christianity does teach that.

As for souls ending up in hell, it's those souls own choice to be in hell.

It would be far more repellent to confine souls to a place other than the place that they choice to dwell in.

Zubeneschamali · 21-08-2014 10:07pm

hinault wrote: »

As for souls ending up in hell, it's those souls own choice to be in hell.

I'm safe so, as I don't believe in Hell, I can't choose to go there.

Of course, I don't believe in souls, either.

hinault · 21-08-2014 10:11pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I'm safe so, as I don't believe in Hell, I can't choose to go there.

Time will tell.

Frank Lee Midere · 21-08-2014 10:13pm

hinault wrote: »

Christianity does teach that.

As for souls ending up in hell, it's those souls own choice to be in hell.

It would be far more repellent to confine souls to a place other than the place that they choice to dwell in.

Really. Surely it wouldn't be repellent at all to not torture people eternally.

hinault · 21-08-2014 10:17pm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Really. Surely it wouldn't be repellent at all to not torture people eternally.

It's not as if they were ever given a choice:rolleyes:

Cabaal · 21-08-2014 10:36pm

hinault wrote: »

Time will tell.

Indeed time will tell,
Thor could just as likely be really pissed off with you for not showing him the respect he deserves, you very well may pay for that.

After all, let's face it, its just as likely as hell or your God.

Zubeneschamali · 22-08-2014 12:05am

hinault wrote: »

Time will tell.

No, it's simply impossible. I really cannot choose to go to Hell. It'd be like you choosing to go to Narnia or Mordor - you can't, because you know they are fictional.

hinault · 22-08-2014 12:11am

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, it's simply impossible

Time will tell who's wrong and who's right.

magicbastarder · 22-08-2014 12:16am

is hell not the most extreme example ever of

?

so because you told your ma a few porkies about where the stains on the curtains came from when you were 16, and lied about why the dog looks embarrassed, you've to spend an infinity of time after you die being tortured with boiling lead poured over you, while you're forced to masturbate to my little pony porn in front of your dead grandmother while satan laughs at the size of your dick.
when in reality your mum was able to deal with the situation by just bringing the curtains to the dry cleaners and paying them 16 quid to get rid of the problem.
happens the best of us.

hinault · 22-08-2014 12:26am

magicbastarder wrote: »

is hell not the most extreme example ever of

?

so because you told your ma a few porkies about where the stains on the curtains came from when you were 16, and lied about why the dog looks embarrassed, you've to spend an infinity of time after you die being tortured with boiling lead poured over you, while you're forced to masturbate to my little pony porn in front of your dead grandmother while satan laughs at the size of your dick.
when in reality your mum was able to deal with the situation by just bringing the curtains to the dry cleaners and paying them 16 quid to get rid of the problem.
happens the best of us.

For those sent to hell, they are sent there for eternity with no possibility of ever leaving hell.

magicbastarder · 22-08-2014 12:36am

an infinite punishment for a finite sin?
your god must be one hell of a dick.
pun unintended.

hinault · 22-08-2014 12:44am

magicbastarder wrote: »

an infinite punishment for a finite sin?
your god must be one hell of a dick.
pun unintended.

A sin that isn't absolved is infinite.

Jesusaves · 22-08-2014 1:15am

God said ' after death comes judgement' Hebrews 9v 27. Heaven and Hell are real. You'd want to make sure you know where you're going when you die. Jesus died so we could life eternally in Heaven. Got questions? Look up this website:
Got questions.org
I pray whoever reads this will be saved. It's a great peace to know where you are going when you die. May God bless you all.

shane9689 · 22-08-2014 1:54am

This is my thread that i purposefully posted on the atheist/agnostic forum as to avoid organised religious nonsense...so if the Christians can please either keep quiet or go away as you're derailing the discussion from agnosticism into Christianity... i wouldn't go doing this in the Christian forums so i expect the same amount of respect back or ill have to inform a mod.

state your views, keep it simple but lets not make this a atheism vs Christianity thread as there's millions of those already

nagirrac · 22-08-2014 6:00am

Kidchameleon wrote: »

If someone were able to create a brain, in which emerged a consciousness, would that person have become a God?

Nature has already accomplished this, the primary reason pantheists believe that nature and God are two words for the same thing. Nature in this context meaning everything that exists, including the little bit we have evolved to observe and operate in, and the possibly infinite bit we can't directly observe. To a pantheist all of it is God.

Everything we know of is filtered through our brain, so I suppose it makes sense that if we can duplicate its sensory capability, such a device could do everything in terms of function we do. Being aware of it is the tough part, the hard problem of consciousness.

I don't subscribe to the materialistic reductionist view of nature, so I don't believe humans will ever create bottom up a biological device that can develop consciousness as we know it. We will likely make huge progress with AI, but I think consciousness as we experience it will remain elusive.

nagirrac · 22-08-2014 6:07am

Here's something to try and get the thread back on track. The cosmologists quoted are the best regarded over the past 20 years, Linde in particular who was at the forefront of eternal inflationary theory. Its a bit stunning to think that how we observe and experience this classical or macro world of ours has no bearing whatsoever on how the subatomic world or the cosmos operates. Trying to think of it in classical terms we feel comfortable with is no help, the best we can do is analogy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/science/15brain.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&sq=cosmologists&st=nyt&scp=1

Frank Lee Midere · 22-08-2014 8:04am

hinault wrote: »

It's not as if they were ever given a choice:rolleyes:

A totalitarian system would say the same.

Imagine if we found out that Iran had been torturing a woman for adultery for the last 30 years. Every day they tortured her and all night too. Burning her alive, flaying her, and keeping her alive for more torture using sophisticated medical interventions. In order to keep her alive to torture her more. Would this be a defence of that regime.

It's not as if she was never given a choice:rolleyes:

No we would see it as an evil regime. But torture for all eternity is ok? . That's obscene. And the people who believe in it are psychopaths. Most Christians ignore it these days.

I don't know what denomination you believe in but most other denominations in Christianity, where people believe in hell, assume others outside their denomination are hell bound. Statistically you are probably hell bound.

magicbastarder · 22-08-2014 8:32am

hinault wrote: »

A sin that isn't absolved is infinite.

infinite in length and/or gravity?

robindch · 22-08-2014 9:38am

shane9689 wrote: »

This is my thread that i purposefully posted on the atheist/agnostic forum as to avoid organised religious nonsense... so if the Christians can please either keep quiet or go away [...] or ill have to inform a mod.

As you haven't requested posters to avoid stating religious views -- and that's isn't really appropriate in a forum where discussion of religious views is normal -- then it's absolutely fine for absolutely anybody to post whatever they feel is relevant to the discussion. Though I do suspect last night's drive-by is unlikely to return to defend the thesis.

Cabaal · 22-08-2014 9:47am

hinault wrote: »

A sin that isn't absolved is infinite.

I must say, your god works in mysterious, inefficient, and breathtakingly cruel ways.

Is it any wounder why the Vatican and its employee's became so twisted in their view of mankind. The dickish behavior by them towards mankind sort of matches the imagined dickish behavior your god has towards mankind.

tommy2bad · 22-08-2014 10:24am

And while trying to keep religion out of this, the possibility of having yourself cloned raised an interesting theological corundum. If I 'sin' enough to go to hell and get cloned just before my execution, the clone lives an exemplary life and goes to heaven. Have I broken some rule of God's? Can I be in both places?
Again it's like the clone getting punished for my crimes by our legal system. If the best we can come up with is cloning then it's not much use at all as all we have done is create new persons, albeit with the same memory history but in fact totally different persons. 'I' won't know what is happening this new person but they will know what happened me up to the point of separation.
I suspect if their is any afterlife that we can be conscious of, it will be in a different form, possibly just information existing in some other matter, radio waves or something. Though allowing for the number of sentient beings that have passed into this state, it's getting crowded out their.

smacl · 22-08-2014 10:41am

Mind you, the cloning thing does solve the contradictory religion issue. Once a good Christian dies, they can go on to Christian heaven. Allah, considering this person a heathen, can make a copy and dispatch it to Muslim hell. Yet another copy can come back re-incarnated as a snail etc...

hinault · 22-08-2014 12:13pm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

But torture for all eternity is ok? .

Where a soul makes the choice to endure torture for all eternity, it is ok.
To make a choice is an act of will.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Most Christians ignore it these days.
most other denominations in Christianity, where people believe in hell, assume others outside their denomination are hell bound. Statistically you are probably hell bound

The doctrine about the existence and reality that is hell hasn't changed. Hell can't change unless God wills it.

"Christians" who choose to ignore the existence and reality of hell do so at their peril.

hinault · 22-08-2014 12:14pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

infinite in length and/or gravity?

In length and gravity, where the sin is not absolved.

smacl · 22-08-2014 12:26pm

hinault wrote: »

Where a soul makes the choice to endure torture for all eternity, it is ok.
To make a choice is an act of will.

So when it transpires that the Muslims were in fact right, and you end up spending all eternity in their version of hell for being the heathen that Allah considers you to be, you'll be ok with that, because after all, it was your choice made of your own free will.

hinault · 22-08-2014 12:30pm

smacl wrote: »

So when it transpires that the Muslims were in fact right, and you end up spending all eternity in their version of hell for being the heathen that Allah considers you to be, you'll be ok with that, because after all, it was your choice made of your own free will.

Out of interest, does Islam instruct that all non-Muslims go to hell?

smacl · 22-08-2014 12:38pm

hinault wrote: »

Out of interest, does Islam instruct that all non-Muslims go to hell?

Apparently so, according to Wikipedia, and you Christians are in for an even bigger roasting than us atheists;

Gates of Jahannam[edit]
According to Allama Ibn Kathir, Jahannam has seven gates. According to Muslim scholars, they are:

1. Hawia: This is for the hypocrite, the Pharoah and his associates.
2. Jahim: This is above Hawia. It is for the pagans and the polytheists.
3. Saqar:: This is above Jahim. It is for the atheists.
4. Nati: This is above Saqar. It is for Shaytan and his associates.
5. Hatma: This is above Nati. It is for the Jews whose bad deeds outweigh good.
6. Sa'ah: This is above Hatma. This is for the Christians whose bad deeds outweigh good.
7. Jahannam: This is the seventh and the uppermost which is for the Muslims whose bad deeds outweighed good deeds.[30]

hinault · 22-08-2014 12:47pm

smacl wrote: »

Apparently so, according to Wikipedia, and you Christians are in for an even bigger roasting than us atheists;

I'll take my chances

robindch · 22-08-2014 12:58pm

hinault wrote: »

I'll take my chances

No offence and I can't think of a polite way to say it, but I find it close to impossible to believe that adults genuinely appear to believe this stuff.

Behold the power of memetic selection.

Cabaal · 22-08-2014 12:59pm

smacl wrote: »

Apparently so, according to Wikipedia, and you Christians are in for an even bigger roasting than us atheists;

Interesting, guess god really does hate Christians more....that;ll teach them for making up a god to worship

When you consider just how awful worshiping a false god is I guess pretty much all Christians have more bad deeds then good,

Scientific possibility of an afterlife? ...of somesort

Comments