School patronage

lazygal · 30-08-2014 5:35pm

If the choice is between five mega schools and hundreds of discriminatory schools I'd pick the five mega schools.

inocybe · 30-08-2014 7:45pm

Well I'm outraged over the lack of any educate together secondary school in my part of the country. And I'm in the same situation regarding buses, except my choice is to send my child to a less Catholic school than my local 'very' Catholic school. The only way to get exempt from the 'nearest school' rule seems to be becoming Protestant.
Even educate together wouldn't be my choice in ethos, I'd like a totally secular school system.
Oh, and without stupid crested uniforms. That would be my choice :mad:

LOL
"I'm devastated, we picked the school for its ethos, religion and iPads, it's an exciting time for my daughter but our happiness it's clouded by this problem," - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/families-outraged-over-lack-of-bus-to-educate-together-secondary-school-30543360.html#sthash.O4XyhYzX.LTWwxc8n.dpuf

lazygal · 30-08-2014 9:16pm

Technology seems an eminently reasonable criteria for choosing a school. I'm not enthralled by heavy schoolbags and chalk and talk approaches.

recedite · 30-08-2014 10:19pm

inocybe wrote: »

my choice is to send my child to a less Catholic school than my local 'very' Catholic school. The only way to get exempt from the 'nearest school' rule seems to be becoming Protestant.
Even educate together wouldn't be my choice in ethos, I'd like a totally secular school system..

Part of the problem is that most schools nowadays self-categorise themselves as "multi-denominational" even those with a religious ethos. Only the minority who have no tolerance for pupils of other beliefs call themselves "denominational".
If ET re-categorised themselves as non-denominational it would IMO make it easier to argue the case that their ethos is sufficiently "different".

IMO all pupils should have access and transport to their nearest non-discriminatory and non-denominational public school as the default position. If they want to be choosy, and go to a school with a denominational ethos, or a private school, fine, but let them pay for and organise the logistics privately.
That would be an ideal situation. But as we currently have no "non-denominational" public schools at all, there is a long way to go.

Brian Shanahan · 30-08-2014 11:54pm

lazygal wrote: »

On a half hour drive I counted three small primary schools in one area in rural Kerry. There's no need to have three small schools within one half hour drive. Although where I live in Dublin there's also far too many schools, all fiercely protective of their own patch.

And I bet you weren't looking that hard. In my own parish we have three, Nicker (my alma mater), Barna and Garrydoolis. There are also three outside the parish which usually have at least one child attending from the parish, Oola, Tineterrife and Cloverfield. This is all within a five (circa) mile radius of the village of New Pallas.

expectationlost · 01-09-2014 11:10am

Lack of paperwork hindering school divestment programme http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/lack-of-paperwork-hindering-school-divestment-programme-1.1913318 IT

In the case of Newtownwhite NS, he said the Church of Ireland Bishop of Tuam, Killala and Achonry, Dr Patrick Rooke, was “very positive” and facilitory about the change, but “when it came to having the lease for the buildings transferred to the State, it turns out they were vested in a trust”, the three members of which had died in the 1930s.
Mr Rowe said this sort of scenario created considerable legal and consultancy costs, and Educate Together calculated that each school opening was costing it about €100,000 in professional hours.

robindch · 02-09-2014 4:54pm

A former-COI school goes multidemon in Mayo. Only 3,200 to go!

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/church-of-ireland-school-in-mayo-goes-multidenominational-1.1914683

Irish Times wrote:

A 108-year-old former Church of Ireland school became multidenominational yesterday. Newtownwhite Educate Together National School (ETNS), which is near the estuary of the river Moy at Ballysokeery, Ballina, is the first Educate Together primary school in Co Mayo. It has 20 pupils.

Until last June, it was a Church of Ireland school under the patronage of the Bishop of Tuam, Killala and Achonry. Newtownwhite ETNS, which was officially opened yesterday by Taoiseach Enda Kenny is one of four new multidenominational schools to open this month. School principal Catherine Boland thanked the Church of Ireland clergy who facilitated the establishment of Educate Together in Co Mayo through the donation of the Newtownwhite school building.

Chief executive of Educate Together Paul Rowe told the large gathering that the children starting school yesterday will almost certainly see the year 2100. He continued: “So we as educators have now got to seriously aspire to educate children not just for the 21st century but for the 22nd century. We believe that educating children in an atmosphere of human rights and equality is an optimum way to prepare them for a world which is dramatically more diverse than the world in which we grew up ourselves.”

After the official unveiling of a plaque to mark the opening of the school, the Taoiseach said the Catholic Church owned most schools in the country but was anxious to divest a number of them. “But clearly in any area around the country this requires a process of consultation and negotiation and it’s not without its difficulties,” he said.

Cabaal · 02-09-2014 5:06pm

Meaningless,
Only 20 kids,

If it was a school of 150-200 I'd see it has some level of progress, even if educate together is still not the proper solution

expectationlost · 02-09-2014 5:22pm

City's first new Catholic school in 30 years opens http://www.herald.ie/news/citys-first-new-catholic-school-in-30-years-opens-30552700.html

"There is no Catholic school from Finglas, past Dunboyne in this direction. They're all multi-denominational or non-denominational. In effect in Dublin 15, there hasn't been much parental choice because of the type of schools that opened in the last 30 years."

Cabaal · 02-09-2014 5:26pm

expectationlost wrote: »

City's first new Catholic school in 30 years opens http://www.herald.ie/news/citys-first-new-catholic-school-in-30-years-opens-30552700.html

oh ffs!
:mad:

expectationlost · 02-09-2014 10:37pm

MINISTER ADMITS DELAY IN CHURCH-RUN SCHOOL HANDOVERS http://www.herald.ie/news/minister-admits-delay-in-churchrun-school-handovers-30552697.html She said:

"That is not progressing perhaps as quickly as had been hoped.

"Clearly there are ownership rights and property rights and so on, that are involved, but I would like to move it (on) as quickly as possible.

"The hold up is not so much paperwork. It's around actually working out an agreement, whereby a school that currently has ownership or patronage of a school is willing to engage in terms of changing that.

"So it is a process of consultation and collaboration, but I certainly hope to drive it on."

recedite · 03-09-2014 12:38pm

expectationlost wrote: »

City's first new Catholic school in 30 years opens http://www.herald.ie/news/citys-first-new-catholic-school-in-30-years-opens-30552700.html

There are some inaccuracies in that report from the Herald which, to be fair, only reflect the general confusion out there regarding patronage and religion.

It says that the new schools established recently have been "all multi-denominational or non-denominational". They probably mean ET by this, but in fact there is no non-denominational patron as yet.

It says Le Cheile Trust has a catholic ethos "but it doesn't have any religious order behind it. It's quite different from other Catholic schools that would have religious orders behind them".
That is mainly true. The reason is that the trust fund was set up to protect the assets of certain religious orders from compensation claims by abuse victims. The likes of the Christian brothers and the Holy Faith nuns were pulling out of education at the time, and they pooled all their existing schools into this trust fund, which was tasked with preserving their original faith ethos, while being a new legal entity immune to any compensation claims.

These type of schools can claim to be both "catholic" and "multi-denominational" which makes them quite appealing to many. The reason for this is they don't allow religious discrimination in their admissions policy (which to be fair to them is a big improvement on the traditional "denominational" school)
Also, at least in theory, pupils can opt-out from the catholic religious indoctrination. In practice, its unlikely that any pupil will want to stand out in the corridor on their own during religious instruction classes.

From Le Cheile Trust website;

Charter of the Le Chéile Schools Trust also gives a reference point for Catholic Chaplains engaged in faith formation work. They recommend the following approach:
The work of faith formation is through invitation, not coercion. It recognises that individuals are at different places in their personal faith journeys. Some students from other faiths and from other Christian denominations will have enrolled in the school. Their different traditions will be respected. They will be encouraged to grow in knowledge and appreciation of their own tradition. Other students may come to the school with limited ability to engage with the spiritual.

So there it is, even the little brats produced by all you atheists out there can be admitted to the trust fund school.... despite their "limited abilities"

expectationlost · 03-09-2014 12:59pm

recedite wrote: »

There are some inaccuracies in that report from the Herald which, to be fair, only reflect the general confusion out there regarding patronage and religion.

It says that the new schools established recently have been "all multi-denominational or non-denominational". They probably mean ET by this, but in fact there is no non-denominational patron as yet.

It says Le Cheile Trust has a catholic ethos "but it doesn't have any religious order behind it. It's quite different from other Catholic schools that would have religious orders behind them".
That is mainly true. The reason is that the trust fund was set up to protect the assets of certain religious orders from compensation claims by abuse victims. The likes of the Christian brothers and the Holy Faith nuns were pulling out of education at the time, and they pooled all their existing schools into this trust fund, which was tasked with preserving their original faith ethos, while being a new legal entity immune to any compensation claims.

These type of schools can claim to be both "catholic" and "multi-denominational" which makes them quite appealing to many. The reason for this is they don't allow religious discrimination in their admissions policy (which to be fair to them is a big improvement on the traditional "denominational" school)
Also, at least in theory, pupils can opt-out from the catholic religious indoctrination. In practice, its unlikely that any pupil will want to stand out in the corridor on their own during religious instruction classes.

From Le Cheile Trust website;
So there it is, even the little brats produced by all you atheists out there can be admitted to the trust fund school.... despite their "limited abilities"

well I think this new school would class itself as Catholic, its the previous schools in the area were multi-denominational while having a strong Church influence, im looking at schools in the D15 area, http://education.ie/en/Find-a-School/School-Search-Results/?level=Post%20Primary&geo=15&ethos=-1&lang=-1&gender=-1 built in 1995 Castleknock Community College which was opened by the VEC ( not a co-patronage like many other community colleges) because it was an inter-denominational schools for by the Catholic Church and the Church of Ireland. They have 4 bishops representatives on their board of management. http://www.castleknockcc.ie/index.php/admission-policy/

Castleknock 1995 vec Inter Denominational
hartstown 93 vec http://hartstowncs.com/history.htm
phibblestown 2010 vec http://www.cpsetanta.ie/School/BoardofManagement.aspx
blakestown 80 a vec that started as st-louis order co-patron and is now a vec-le cheile co-patron http://www.blakestowncs.ie/content/board-management-0
coolmine http://www.coolminecs.ie/coolmine.community.school.php?number=163
Luttrellstown Community College ~2009? vec http://www.luttrellstowncc.ie Inter Denominational
riversdale 1986 http://www.angelfire.com/pe/riversdale/ designated catholic cc
just found the assement for choice of new school https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Establishing-a-New-School/New-Post-Primary-Schools/New-Post-Primary-Schools-2013-2014/Mulhuddart%20Assessment%20of%20Applications.pdf

describes an desingated community college that interdenominational community college with a Catholic ethos???

it chooses le cheile based on expression of interest.

I think a number ET secondary schools have opened in the wider area http://www.educatetogether.ie/schools/county/?county=Fingal

RainyDay · 03-09-2014 1:38pm

And in other news today;

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/call-for-state-schools-to-accommodate-islamic-beliefs-1.1915810

Where schools were “persistent”, they should “employ a female PE teacher and provide students with a sports hall not accessible to men during times when girls are at play. They should also not be visible to men while at play.”
Also, Muslim girls would resist changing clothes in a communal area.
When it came to music some Muslims would see it as prohibited but “if music is performed using non-tuneable percussion instruments such as drums, most Muslims will have no problem”.

recedite · 03-09-2014 2:23pm

And he calls this proposal “a revolution of inclusivity" in Irish schools. :pac:
I get the feeling this guy would really prefer not to educate the muslim girls at all, but be has discovered that would be illegal in this country.

lazygal · 03-09-2014 2:28pm

RainyDay wrote: »

And in other news today;

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/call-for-state-schools-to-accommodate-islamic-beliefs-1.1915810

This is just more pointless duplication of state services for no other reason than religious ideology.

expectationlost · 04-09-2014 1:00am

Primary school opens in Dublin ... with just one pupil http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/primary-school-opens-in-dublin-with-just-one-pupil-284812.html

A new primary school opened in Tallaght this week with just one pupil — but will stay open if enough children enrol in the next few weeks.

The Department of Education said multi-denominational Scoil Aoife was established to meet a demographic need.

Dublin and Dún Laoghaire Education and Training Board invited applications for enrolments at the school last spring. But despite low levels of interest, it was decided last month to open the new community national school anyway.

schools often open with a small number of pupils (but not that small) this may sort itself out soon

Absolam · 04-09-2014 4:50am

recedite wrote: »

And he calls this proposal “a revolution of inclusivity" in Irish schools.

Interesting though; there's been quite a lot of talk on this thread about what needs to be taken out of Irish schools in order for them to be sufficiently inclusive to accommodate atheists. It would not really be fair to fail to consider what needs to be taken out to accommodate faiths such as Islam as well, surely? If a school is to be non/multi denominational, removing elements offensive to some can't be enough, we must rid ourselves of all of offensive elements?

So, most posters here agree with his first proposition I think, to remove a schools entitlement to prefer pupils based on ethos.

His second proposal, to observe or mark muslim religious festivals might be more troublesome; surely we either observe or mark all religious festivals, or none at all? Is there a middle ground?

Thirdly, the moral element to relationship and sexuality education; most christians would broadly agree with the muslim perspective, but is there (since I don't know the program) or should there be, a moral element to relationship and sexuality education, particularly with regard to extra-marital sex? Should this be solely a functional biological education, or if a moral element is to be imparted, what's the lowest common denominator acceptable to all?

Fourthly; female children in PE. I can't see a reason to accede to a requirement for females to be segregated from any males during PE as this seems to be putting something into the education process to facilitate a religion, but nor can I see a real health and safety requirement to forbid them from wearing headscarves if this is already permitted in normal schooltime.

Permitting some privacy in communal changing areas however does seem to be a facility that some students might desire regardless of ir/religion?

Fifthly, when it comes to musical instruments, surely we can all agree to stick with non-tuneable instruments? After all, we all hated that guy with the guitar lording it over everyone and impressing the girls anyway.

Finally, with regards to school plays, I don't think any school is going to force physical contact between students that aren't inclined to it, so I'd imagine it's readily agreeable, even not forcing students to cross-dress if they don't want to doesn't seem so difficult.

recedite · 04-09-2014 9:23am

I'd fully support his first proposition to remove a schools entitlement to prefer pupils based on ethos.
But the other proposals are the thin end of a wedge. They start off appearing to be small concessions, but can potentially end up with a complete takeover of the school as has happened in the UK.

Talk of inadvertent "touching" between the sexes during PE or drama classes is just an excuse to remove the girls and give them a completely separate gender based education which would prepare them for a life of domesticity.

Talk of "marking" religious festivals is a prelude to celebrating and enforcing them. A secular school would have no problem marking a topical event such as Ramadan, in terms of talking about it in religion class. But it would not facilitate or implement special prayers or fasting.

I have no idea what the objection to music is about. Just more crazyness I suppose.

SpaceTime · 04-09-2014 11:12am

This is what happens when you've a theocratic ethos in schools.

Just watch now as the state bends over backwards to accommodate another extreme religious viewpoint into the education system while completely ignoring the idea that secular, non religiously flavoured public schools run as any other public service.

The laws around education here will create compete chaos in education as everyone demands the same rights as the Established Churches we pretend we don't have.

Absolam · 04-09-2014 11:21am

SpaceTime wrote: »

This is what happens when you've a theocratic ethos in schools.

What, you only get one person turning up to a multi-denom school, or religious people express their opinion?

SpaceTime · 04-09-2014 11:33am

Absolam wrote: »

What, you only get one person turning up to a multi-denom school, or religious people express their opinion?

I give up and will move to France if I have kids. Honestly I'm not even wasting my energy posting on this any more.

In education, Ireland meets every stereotype of being Europe's bible belt.

A considerable % do not understand the concept of secularism or why public services shouldn't be run as private services with exclusive and excluding religious ethos.

All I can conclude is that the Irish are obcessed with religion and see no issue with providing state services on the basis of religious sectarianism.

You're having a debate about Church-State separation that belongs in the 1700-1800s not 2014, yet Ireland is supposedly 'progressive'.

At least Northern Ireland now knows and accepts it has a problem with this stuff. The Republic is still largely blind to it.

Meanwhile the British seem to be charging headfirst into the 1700s with more and more faith based schools and active underming of all the progress with State Schools since WWII All seemes to happen since Reverent Blair came to power in the 1990s and has continued under the Tories as it suits a class divide agenda that they like.

recedite · 04-09-2014 12:10pm

Absolam wrote: »

What, you only get one person turning up to a multi-denom school, or religious people express their opinion?

I think the reference was to the muslim complaints, not the ETB/VEC school.
The ETB/VEC have only recently ventured into the patronage of primary schools. Their proposal for the provision of religious indoctrination was to segregate all the pupils according to their individual religions, and then proceed to brainwash the different groups separately, as specified by the relevant shamanic authorities. So in this respect, having only one pupil to deal with will make the process much easier.

SpaceTime · 04-09-2014 12:13pm

recedite wrote: »

I think the reference was to the muslim complaints, not the ETB/VEC school.
The ETB/VEC have only recently ventured into the patronage of primary schools. Their proposal for the provision of religious indoctrination was to segregate all the pupils according to their individual religions, and then proceed to brainwash the different groups separately, as specified by the relevant shamanic authorities. So in this respect, having only one pupil to deal with will make the process much easier.

Meanwhile the atheists get to go out and play?

expectationlost · 04-09-2014 2:22pm

seperate schooling for boys and girls, what a very foreign idea, not!

I Heart Internet · 04-09-2014 2:43pm

expectationlost wrote: »

Primary school opens in Dublin ... with just one pupil http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/primary-school-opens-in-dublin-with-just-one-pupil-284812.html

Must be all that un-met demand for alternatives to religious patronage we've been hearing about.

SpaceTime · 04-09-2014 3:41pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Must be all that un-met demand for alternatives to religious patronage we've been hearing about.

There are already 41 primary schools in Dublin 24!?!?!

http://www.schooldays.ie/primary-schools-in-ireland/primary-Dublin-24

This is what I mean about duplication of facilities by having everything divided up by sponsoring organisation and religious ethos and often by gender.

You'd expect maybe 10 or 12 primary schools max in an area the physical size of taillight. You only need rakes of small schools when the population density is low.

Look at the enrolment numbers too, at least 50% of them are tiny.

Tallaght is not a collection of scattered rural villages. It's a major, densely populated suburb/satellite of Dublin. Yet, what I'm seeing in that list is what you'd expect to see in a large province with lots of small villages/towns.

Does anyone actually manage ANYTHING in Ireland?!
It's just like here's a big pile of cash : give it to some vested interests to spend on who knows what!

It's now wonder we had the bloody IMF in.

I'm tempted to actually send an email to Merkel's office just to show her how German tax payers' money is being spent here.
There's no point in bringing it up with any of our political parties as they're all so parish-pump-politics fixated they can't see the end of their own street, never mind deal with major issues of public expenditure.

There's giving people choice of schools and there's completely taking the .... tbh.

recedite · 04-09-2014 8:37pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

Meanwhile the atheists get to go out and play?

It seems the atheists chose a different school.
One pupil per school is ideal for the ETB/VEC model though. If the child is RC, then it transforms itself into a catholic school. If the child is muslim, then the religion class will teach the koran instead.

Brian Shanahan · 04-09-2014 11:33pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'm tempted to actually send an email to Merkel's office just to show her how German tax payers' money is being spent here.

To be honest it's mostly the other way round at the moment. You see the bail-out money was spent to pay back the junk bonds (which normally have no security, hence the extreme interest rates) issued by the banks after they got into trouble. Junk bonds issued by Irish banks were bought up by German and UK banks in about equal proportion, so therefore the €150+bn debt the country "owns" was a debt forced upon us by the Germans (mainly, the UK had other problems at the time so were a lot less forceful) so that their insolvent financial sector (the EU bank stress tests have been repeatedly delayed because in reality the German banks are in such a bad condition there is no way they would pass even the most lenient one, causing a German economic collapse along the lines of 1929) would be propped up without the German state taking on the burden of their own foolishness.

Edit: On your on topic part of the message, that because of all the religious sponsors we have way too much duplication you are absolutely correct.

Absolam · 04-09-2014 11:49pm

recedite wrote: »

Their proposal for the provision of religious indoctrination was to segregate all the pupils according to their individual religions, and then proceed to brainwash the different groups separately, as specified by the relevant shamanic authorities.

Call me skeptical, but somehow I don't think that was their proposal?

recedite wrote: »

One pupil per school is ideal for the ETB/VEC model though. If the child is RC, then it transforms itself into a catholic school. If the child is muslim, then the religion class will teach the koran instead.

I'm sensing some antagonism towards ETB here, but I have to wonder, how bad can they be if you have to resort to making stuff up in order to have a go at them?

School patronage

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