Running late for work, boarded train without ticket, fined

OP, I'm not entirely with the majority on this one. I don't think you have a legal case, however you do have options other than just coughing up the fine immediately.

I suggest that you write to Iarnroid Eireann via registered post.
Photocopy all of the tickets that your "lassie" has and include them.

Don't be in any way demanding with the letter, but offer that "given your partners previous history of being a fare-paying customer AND the exceptional circumstances on the train that day" you are very willing to pay a fine equalling the cost of a ticket for that day.

Perhaps you were a bit annoyed at the time of your post but, if that's your normal style of communication, it might be better if your partner writes the letter

Make a copy of the letter you sent and keep the receipt for the registered letter.

If IE refuse your offer, print out the receipt acknowledgement for the registered letter from the web.

Send IE another registered letter saying that you regret they have refused your offer and that when the the case is heard in court you will present as evidence their refusal of your offer. State very clearly that you think this is a waste of court time, but that IE have effectively chosen to go down this route not you.

You then have 2 letters that MAY stand to your case if you choose to go down the legal route, which will end up costing you a lot of money whichever way the decision goes.

Most companies that are run on a normal for-profit basis, will value their existing customers and would respond positively to this approach. I'm not sure if IE will however.

n97 mini wrote: »

It appears to me that IE has taken a confrontational approach, and seem to prefer issuing fines to issuing tickets, in the event that a customer has no ticket, regardless of the reason.

I'm not aware of any other company that takes such a confrontational approach.

I travel on trains in Britain and NI quite a bit. I regularly meet ticket inspectors/sellers but I have yet to meet a Revenue Protection Officer.

IE offer everyone the ability to buy a ticket. If they decide not to buy one from a TVM or ticket office, then that frankly is their own fault, and no one else's. No one is forcing anyone to choose to use the train - there are alternatives. But if they do use the train, then they have to abide by the company's conditions of carriage.

The rule is so simple - if the facility is there to buy a ticket before you board a train, then you must do so, otherwise you will pay a standard fare. Where the facility is not available, then you can pay on board to a ticket checker or at the destination.

There is quite obviously a serious problem with fare evasion - that much is clear from reading the reports of the amount of standard fares issued from the recent ticket checking blitzes in the Dublin area. IE, as with any company, is entitled to take whatever measures it deems fit to protect its revenue, and frankly if that means issuing standard fares then so be it.

As for the UK, they have a completely different operating procedure, in that most trains require two person operation with a driver and a conductor/train manager who is responsible for operating the doors and revenue protection.

However, it is most certainly the case that on all UK Intercity trains, train managers employ a zero tolerance approach. If you board a train with either an advance ticket for a different specified train, or no ticket at all, you will be charged the full "anytime" fare for your trip which is usually a substantial amount of money - considerably more than IE's standard fare. If you cannot pay that, they will issue an Unpaid Fare Notice, which is an invoice equivalent to the full anytime fare for the train that you are on.

On certain routes in the UK, penalty fares apply, and where you are not able to produce a valid ticket for inspection you are liable to pay either twice the full Single fare to the next station at which the train is due to stop, or £20, whichever is the greater. Any travel beyond that next station will be charged at the full Single fare.

Many UK local services will have conductors selling tickets on board, for exactly the same reason as on certain routes in Ireland, that there are stations without ticket selling facilities on those lines.

At the end of the day, it is up to every individual company (and this is not just transport) to protect its revenue stream and take whatever measures it deems fit to do so. I'm sure that your employer would not take revenue evasion particularly lightly, so why should IE?

In the same vein would you expect a Dublin Bus inspector to issue you a ticket or a standard fare notice?

Judgement Day wrote: »

Oh come on, so armed police accompany ticket checkers on the Continent - righty.

Oddly enough JD,I was in Paris last year and witnessed a similar operation (VERY Large Scale and Highly Visible) at the same Station.

The scale of it was very impressive to somebody from this juristiction....mind you they were dealing with an equally large grouping of Roma Gypsy types and much arm waving,excited shouting and stoney-face looks were in evidence on each side...oh and Dogs...big wild looking Alsatians,slobbering all over the place !

Probably all a bit to Authoritarian for our sensibilities though ?

josip wrote: »

OP, I'm not entirely with the majority on this one. I don't think you have a legal case, however you do have options other than just coughing up the fine immediately.

I suggest that you write to Iarnroid Eireann via registered post.
Photocopy all of the tickets that your "lassie" has and include them.

Don't be in any way demanding with the letter, but offer that "given your partners previous history of being a fare-paying customer AND the exceptional circumstances on the train that day" you are very willing to pay a fine equalling the cost of a ticket for that day.

Perhaps you were a bit annoyed at the time of your post but, if that's your normal style of communication, it might be better if your partner writes the letter

Make a copy of the letter you sent and keep the receipt for the registered letter.

If IE refuse your offer, print out the receipt acknowledgement for the registered letter from the web.

Send IE another registered letter saying that you regret they have refused your offer and that when the the case is heard in court you will present as evidence their refusal of your offer. State very clearly that you think this is a waste of court time, but that IE have effectively chosen to go down this route not you.

You then have 2 letters that MAY stand to your case if you choose to go down the legal route, which will end up costing you a lot of money whichever way the decision goes.

Most companies that are run on a normal for-profit basis, will value their existing customers and would respond positively to this approach. I'm not sure if IE will however.

They won't. Concepts like customer relations and customer loyalty are a bit alien to them. All they understand is sometime in the past they were able to write themselves a little law to allow then to force people to give them 100 euro and that's all they're interested in.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

They won't. Concepts like customer relations and customer loyalty are a bit alien to them. All they understand is sometime in the past they were able to write themselves a little law to allow then to force people to give them 100 euro and that's all they're interested in.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that they only issue it where people evaded paying the fare - it will only be issued in circumstances where the person concerned did not avail of the facilities provided to buy a ticket.

That is fare evasion - it's as simple as that.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

They won't. Concepts like customer relations and customer loyalty are a bit alien to them. All they understand is sometime in the past they were able to write themselves a little law to allow then to force people to give them 100 euro and that's all they're interested in.

Kinda..but all we are now seeing with Irish Rail is their belated adoption of Revenue Protection and Collection principles historically practiced all over the Public Transport World.

I'd venture to suggest that there's not a developed Rail System anywhere which does'nt have accounts of people getting penalized for non-possession of tickets or other breaches of THEIR Conditions of Travel and associated Laws relating to the services.

There's more to Customer Relations and Loyalty than simply nodding through hard-luck cases as they rock-up on the day.

The offended party has a full menu of alternatives open to pursue this case,any or all of which could see them succeed in their arguement...however in order to proceed with this,they must also recognize the possibility that they could also LOSE the arguement,with all of the attendant risks that carries....It all hangs on just how correct they consider they are ?

foggy_lad wrote: »

Armed police with alsation dogs checking tickets.....Wow, Is there any possibility that these "operations" were like the few Gardai operations each year where they crack down on drink driving or speeding with a few highly visible checkpoints where they will be seen by most people and also where news media can film the operation. Is it not possible that the Armed element of the police were there as a publicity stunt? or to back up other officers with dogs who were searching for drugs amongst train passengers?

This is Ireland not mainland Europe or even the UK, Thank god we don't have armed Gardai escorting ticket checkers, the whole idea for this country is absurd.

Did anyone suggest such an approach was appropriate in Ireland?

Oh my gosh how lousy, the inspectors have big bags with bundles of tickets to sell on board the train, I have purchased mine once or twice while on board. I think it all depends on which inspector you meet, some are more willing to co-operate than others.

Morgana1988 wrote: »

Oh my gosh how lousy, the inspectors have big bags with bundles of tickets to sell on board the train, I have purchased mine once or twice while on board. I think it all depends on which inspector you meet, some are more willing to co-operate than others.

No they don't. As I posted above there is a difference.

Ticket checkers also sell tickets, but generally operate on routes where there are stations that have no ticket selling facilities.

Revenue Protection Unit (RPU) staff do not sell tickets. Their sole function is to check tickets and issue standard fares where appropriate. They operate across the entire network.

lxflyer wrote: »

At the end of the day, it is up to every individual company (and this is not just transport) to protect its revenue stream and take whatever measures it deems fit to do so. I'm sure that your employer would not take revenue evasion particularly lightly, so why should IE?

Protecting revenue streams would also normally involve keeping existing customers happy and treating them well. "Well" is not the same as legally correct.
Or is IE's customer's base so big and captive to their service that IE have no concerns about losing a few customers by strictly applying the rules?

For me the difference in this case is that the customer can prove that she normally purchases a ticket for the service she was on. While she was dealt with correctly according to the rules she was not IMO dealt with properly as a customer by the RPO. It remains to be seen if IE will view her case differently. Rail services are usually monopolies and know that their customers have no alternative but to use their services. As a result they can take a stricter line without losing customers