The "new" Routemaster, any thoughts?

Going Forward · 17-12-2011 11:10pm #1

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075177/21st-century-version-Routemaster-unveiled-Boris-Johnson.html

An ugly looking thing IMO.

This thing has a front like, well, the back of a bus!
Much greener no doubt:rolleyes:

dublinman1990 · 18-12-2011 1:10am

The article you have in the OP seems to repeat itself sometimes, very annoying.:mad:

I can't believe there is no new top speed on the routemaster. It sound like when the bus is launched on the day, it would suggest that it will break down in seconds. Which make the passengers go like this >

Cookie_Monster · 18-12-2011 1:20am

no top speed means it'll break down straight away

They're ugly looking things, far too rounded

charlemont · 18-12-2011 1:31am

I think they look fairly nice, Very modern look to them.

mathepac · 18-12-2011 1:38am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

The article you have in the OP seems to repeat itself sometimes, very annoying.:mad: ...

But it's the Daily Mail and their imaginations and vocabulary are sadly lacking. Maybe they will award themselves some kind of green award for recycling within articles.

MarkK · 18-12-2011 1:49am

It's a election promise gone wrong, Boris Johnson promised a Routemaster type bus to replace bendy buses as part of his mayor of London election campaign

The 'hop on hop off' door at the back will only be used when there is a conductor on board, which will not be all the time.

I prefer the bendy busses, which are 'hop on hop off' all the time.

L1011 · 18-12-2011 3:10am

mathepac wrote: »

But it's the Daily Mail and their imaginations and vocabulary are sadly lacking. Maybe they will award themselves some kind of green award for recycling within articles.

David Dimbleby described the Mail perfectly: "a bigoted, sexist, homophobic comic strip".

CIE · 18-12-2011 6:15am

MarkK wrote: »

It's a election promise gone wrong, Boris Johnson promised a Routemaster type bus to replace bendy buses as part of his mayor of London election campaign

The 'hop on hop off' door at the back will only be used when there is a conductor on board, which will not be all the time.

I prefer the bendy busses, which are 'hop on hop off' all the time.

Well, it's not like the blueprints for the Routemaster have disappeared. Certainly possible to build new ones with more modern and efficient diesel engines and modern gearboxes, never mind modern running gear as well. Trying to fix what was broken will end up breaking more than you fix.

corktina · 18-12-2011 9:57am

it is excellent IMHO. London was always famous for its Red Buses and now that iconic look is back.

Modern efficency and three doors are a huge bounus too.

corktina · 18-12-2011 9:58am

MarkK wrote: »

It's a election promise gone wrong, Boris Johnson promised a Routemaster type bus to replace bendy buses as part of his mayor of London election campaign

The 'hop on hop off' door at the back will only be used when there is a conductor on board, which will not be all the time.

I prefer the bendy busses, which are 'hop on hop off' all the time.

there would be no point in building new OLD RMs. They would be too small for modern usage.

munchkin_utd · 18-12-2011 10:03am

you might get a better idea of the bus in the video from the UTV news article a few months back when it was launched in Ballymena by the manufacturer. Looks better in the video i think than the daily mail photos

http://www.u.tv/news/Wrightbus-gets-thumbs-up-from-Boris/c7fc8553-cc36-4913-9c39-80a1d841e620

MarkK · 18-12-2011 11:49am

corktina wrote: »

there would be no point in building new OLD RMs. They would be too small for modern usage.

The main problems with the old RMs is that they required two people to operate them and they are not wheelchair friendly.
Also, the open platform with no door at the back of the bus is a "health and safety issue".

corktina · 18-12-2011 11:54am

two man operation in the central area of a metropolis like London is the way to go (hence the new buses have a rear door for use when they have Conductor aboard). OMO buses are much slower and cause congestion.

As for open doors, yes they are PERCEIVED as a H&S risk nowadays but operated sucessfully for generations with very few casualties and the option to hop on or off at the Traffic lights (etc) makes them more flexible. I'm at a loss to understand the earlier comments about hopping on and off a Bendy Bus, these were even worse for causing congestion as not only were they OMO but their back end blocked junctions etc which a 'decker would not do.

Run_to_da_hills · 18-12-2011 11:59am

corktina wrote: »

it is excellent IMHO. London was always famous for its Red Buses and now that iconic look is back.

Modern efficency and three doors are a huge bounus too.

London's iconic look is anything but back, its like comparing the modern front wheel drive VW Beetle to the classic. There is absolutly no comparison and they have nothing in common apart from being red.

These are nothing more than a hideous monstrocity and I hope these things never make an appearance on the streets of Dublin.

corktina · 18-12-2011 12:17pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

London's iconic look is anything but back, its like comparing the modern front wheel drive VW Beetle to the classic. There is absolutly no comparison and they have nothing in common apart from being red.

These are nothing more than a hideous monstrocity and I hope these things never make an appearance on the streets of Dublin.

You miss the point. The Routemaster was Iconic in London as it was designed for London and used (almost) nowhere else (Northern General being the main exception).
The new Bus is unlike almost evey other bus and designed specifiaclly for use in London, giving it an Iconic look from day one that has design references to the old bus.
The Old RM screamed "London Baby" and the new one will too.

thomasj · 18-12-2011 3:26pm

Interesting!

So whereas dublin bus drivers have been told to stop letting passengers off between stops, london bus have brought back an iconic bus with the option for passengers to hop off between stops in slow traffic!

Is there any insurance implications out of this?

bk · 18-12-2011 4:33pm

Looks are in the eye of the beholder.

But much more importantly to those who will actually use these, they are one of the best specified buses in the world.

Large vehicle with large capacity. Three doors and two staircase for quick and easy access.

I think only some places in Germany have similar well speced buses.

It is a pity we can't have these route masters here in Dublin.

Lapin · 18-12-2011 7:05pm

bk wrote: »

Looks are in the eye of the beholder.

But much more importantly to those who will actually use these, they are one of the best specified buses in the world.

Large vehicle with large capacity. Three doors and two staircase for quick and easy access.

I think only some places in Germany have similar well speced buses.

It is a pity we can't have these route masters here in Dublin.

Dublin Bus can't even operate both doors on the buses they have now.
What chance would they have with a three door bus?

I agree though, I'd like to see them in Irish cities.

Going Forward wrote: »

An ugly looking thing IMO.

This thing has a front like, well, the back of a bus!
Much greener no doubt:rolleyes:

You shouldn't talk about poor Boris Johnson like that.

Going Forward · 18-12-2011 7:24pm

corktina wrote: »

The Old RM screamed "London Baby" and the new one will too.

Hey, we can agree to disagree on that one!!!

I would have liked if they had kept a little of the unique front nose of the old RM, I know they kept the curve on the rear roof but the front on the old one was "friendlier".:)

This new design (frontal, exterior) shows a complete lack of imagination.

It brings to mind the various disastrous attempts by "designers" to come up with an improvement on that other London icon- The London Taxi- they were all hideous when they strayed from the look of the original IMO.

Terrontress · 18-12-2011 7:56pm

Going Forward wrote: »

corktina wrote: »

The Old RM screamed "London Baby" and the new one will too.

Hey, we can agree to disagree on that one!!!

I would have liked if they had kept a little of the unique front nose of the old RM, I know they kept the curve on the rear roof but the front on the old one was "friendlier".:)

This new design (frontal, exterior) shows a complete lack of imagination.

It brings to mind the various disastrous attempts by "designers" to come up with an improvement on that other London icon- The London Taxi- they were all hideous when they strayed from the look of the original IMO.

The old nose's design acommodated the engine up front and isolated the driver. They couldn't do that on this bus as it will have to be one man operation at some points and the driver needs to interact with the passengers.

I think it is a good looking bus with the glass swathes and round lights. And London is keeping the good people of Ballymena happy with a few extra jobs making them.

antoinolachtnai · 18-12-2011 9:46pm

I actually got to walk around one of these up in Ballymena last year (although the seating wasn't in). It really seemed like a great design. It looks good, but it also seems very practical.

I presume the idea will be to put conductors on the bus in the central zone, and have them switch buses back towards the centre when they reach the edge of the zone. This will make for an interesting piece of shift management to be sure, but even 100 or 200 conductors should make a big difference to the dwell-time.

I would hazard that these will end up being used on the proposed BRT routes in Dublin but that is just a guess on my part.

Terrontress · 18-12-2011 10:09pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I would hazard that these will end up being used on the proposed BRT routes in Dublin but that is just a guess on my part.

Do Wrights own the design? I thought that TFL had commissioned it by open competition and Wrights simply built it. The normal Wrightbus W is not on the front of it but a TFL roundel instead. If TFL own the design then I'd imagine it won't be used outside of London. If it is successful, Wrights might make something similar for sale to the market.

Lapin · 18-12-2011 10:36pm

TFL Promo

At first glance I wasn't too impressed with the design but it has grown on me over time.

I'm glad to see the return of hop on hop off buses to Central London.
They're damn handy for getting around quickly.

AlekSmart · 18-12-2011 10:54pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I actually got to walk around one of these up in Ballymena last year (although the seating wasn't in). It really seemed like a great design. It looks good, but it also seems very practical.

I presume the idea will be to put conductors on the bus in the central zone, and have them switch buses back towards the centre when they reach the edge of the zone. This will make for an interesting piece of shift management to be sure, but even 100 or 200 conductors should make a big difference to the dwell-time.

I would hazard that these will end up being used on the proposed BRT routes in Dublin but that is just a guess on my part.

I think people are being a bit swift in the denounciation of the NBFL (New Bus For London).

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/15493.aspx

I'll readily admit to being hugely sceptical about the entire concept,however as the programme progressed from drawing board to Production line I've been steadily won-over.

The amount of solid engineering which has gone into NBFL both from TfL,Heatherwick Design and Wrightbus is significant particularly in the series-hybrid driveline and use of composite materials in it's structure.

With an initial production run of just 8 vehicles,this machine is going to be quite a while becoming the "Standard" London Bus.

Interesting also is the methodology being used in the return of the Bus Conductor whereby the job will NOT entail issuing tickets but now focusing on the customer service element and monitoring the rear platform when running in retro mode.

I see absolutely no problem with operating the three doors in OPO mode at all,and particularly in Central London where the populace are well tuned to speedy boarding and alighting.

3 Oystercard readers....something which the NTA might have considered for Dublin perhaps as a nod towards speeding things up when Kerbside.....oh well...:rolleyes:

Some good photo's here from The Autocar as well as a sortofa Road Test......but quite obviously not by a Busdriver !!

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/260508/

Victor · 19-12-2011 4:04am

mathepac wrote: »

But it's the Daily Mail and their imaginations and vocabulary are sadly lacking. Maybe they will award themselves some kind of green award for recycling within articles.

MYOB wrote: »

David Dimbleby described the Mail perfectly: "a bigoted, sexist, homophobic comic strip".

This may well be true, but lets talk about buses here.

Does the downstairs saloon come across as a bit 'busy' with the variety of colours? See the leaflet on the TFL link above.

Everything should be readily discernible as either 'a handrail' or 'not a handrail'.

LordSutch · 20-12-2011 3:11pm

It'll be very interesting to get some feedback once its introduced to the general public. At first sight I thought it was an opportunity missed, I thought it was too big, too bulky, too long, and with one too many sets of doors! . . . However, on reflection I think its going to be a classic in its own right, a modern take on an old classic, (which is now too small & with no wheelchair access). The New Routemaster however does pay homage with the winding staircase at the rear, along with the optional 'Hop on hop off' feature which was a must in the new dsign. Apparently this new version is lighter than existing London busses too, which I find interesting, considering how much bigger the new bus 'seems' . . . .

I think it ticks all the boxes for a modern London, wheelchair access is a prerequisite, and the hop on hop off feature must have the ability to be open or closed (depending on the feature being manned). Anyone got the vital stats? and how does she stack up against the current double deckers Re Height, Length, Weight, top speed, engine power, etc etc etc . . .

Can't wait for a spin on it, upstairs of course

dmcronin · 20-12-2011 4:07pm

Ugh. Why does everything modern have to be fugly?

robd · 20-12-2011 4:13pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Apparently this new version is lighter than existing London busses too, which I find interesting, considering how much bigger the new bus 'seems' . . . .

Probably cause all the rounded, sculpted bits require composite materials rather than cheaper aluminum panels.

Given that, cost is a more important factor.

robd · 20-12-2011 4:19pm

Guess where Wrightbus learn't from their mistakes with Hybrid Technologies.

http://www.irishbuses.com/hybrid.html

Terrontress · 20-12-2011 8:45pm

robd wrote: »

Guess where Wrightbus learn't from their mistakes with Hybrid Technologies.

http://www.irishbuses.com/hybrid.html

London?

icdg · 20-12-2011 11:25pm

Nice to note, the London Transport roundel has recently returned to London Buses. It was never really away of course, there were tiny stickers on the front of buses, but now there are proper vinyls applied to the sides of buses again like there were in the 1980s.

Apparently its a knee-jerk reaction to RATP's acquisition of some London Buses routes and a Daily Mail article that the Paris transport operator was allowed have its logo on London Buses, but whatever the reason, it is back.

AlekSmart · 21-12-2011 12:47am

LordSutch wrote: »

Apparently this new version is lighter than existing London busses too, which I find interesting, considering how much bigger the new bus 'seems' . . . .

I think it ticks all the boxes for a modern London, wheelchair access is a prerequisite, and the hop on hop off feature must have the ability to be open or closed (depending on the feature being manned). Anyone got the vital stats? and how does she stack up against the current double deckers Re Height, Length, Weight, top speed, engine power, etc etc etc . . .
Can't wait for a spin on it, upstairs of course

The Dublin Bus vehicle was always a test-bed,and certainly contributed to at least some of the mods incorporated into the NBfL or LT1 as it's Arriva Fleet Number is.

Perhaps the biggest technical change is the far larger and more robust Cummins 4.7 Ltr Diesel and the use of BAE systems HybriDrive technology as opposed to the Siemens gear in WH1.

I understand that initial Fuel Consumption tests have surprised even the TfL people with figures of over 11 MPG being reported...This is serious stuff indeed and,if replicated in service,will get the attention of Fleet Engineers in a big way.

With the added costs of low volume Hybrid production,most UK operators are seeking minimum equivalent fuel economy figures of 8 mpg before committing to any purchases.

WH1 most certainly never came close to that 8mpg figure,but then again it was never going to be a benchmark vehicle anyway....all that remains now is to see where it ends up !!

AlekSmart · 21-12-2011 12:50am

icdg wrote: »

Nice to note, the London Transport roundel has recently returned to London Buses. It was never really away of course, there were tiny stickers on the front of buses, but now there are proper vinyls applied to the sides of buses again like there were in the 1980s.

Apparently its a knee-jerk reaction to RATP's acquisition of some London Buses routes and a Daily Mail article that the Paris transport operator was allowed have its logo on London Buses, but whatever the reason, it is back.

Good for the Frogs sez I....

I've always admired how the French are prepared to puff their chests out on the National Day...and RATP's Paris Buses,even the most modern generally have a pair of small holders built into the mirror brackets in which to plant the small Tricolours each 14th July....Aux Armes,Citoyens !!:eek:

LordSutch · 21-12-2011 12:20pm

Fascinating indeed about the frogs, tricolours & all that . . . .

One thing that I really dont like is the lack of a back window upstairs, I understand that there is a compressor or something like that behind the upstairs back seats, but what a shame they had to place it there, it all looks a bit claustrophobic to me and you cant see out the back unless you are on the staircase!

antoinolachtnai · 21-12-2011 6:19pm

It really didn't feel claustrophobic at all.

Spotlighting rather than bar lighting is a nice touch to take the institutional feel off the interior at night.

dowlingm · 21-12-2011 6:31pm

58% percent heavier empty weight?? (7 ton 7 cwt converted to 7.467 tonnes, assume the 11.8 "ton" on the new one is actually SI tonnes)

antoinolachtnai · 21-12-2011 6:34pm

Could be soundproofing and insulation? I understand the BRT streetcars that Wright build are heavier than your average bendy bus, because of this. Apparently it makes a significant difference to ride quality in that case.

dowlingm · 21-12-2011 9:47pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Could be soundproofing and insulation? I understand the BRT streetcars that Wright build are heavier than your average bendy bus, because of this. Apparently it makes a significant difference to ride quality in that case.

Except the PR fluff the Daily Moan swallowed says:

The buses are made of lightweight materials with a glass 'swoop' at the rear

:rolleyes:

LordSutch · 21-12-2011 10:27pm

I'm talking doors here, Dublin double decker busses tend to have one door at the front, while the new bus for London will have three sets of doors! FRONT-MIDDLE-& REAR (optional). I know that London has a massive population, and that its a very fast moving Capital in comparisson to Dublin, but I am curious to know why Dublin Bus now employ only one set of doors at the front, while the London transport thinking is to increase the amount of entrances & exits to three on their new bus . . .

Until just a few years ago Dublin busses had two sets of doors, (one front & one middle) and even then the second entrance/exit was rarely used, so what is/was the thinking? London bus claim that they want to maximise the speed at which people enter & exit the 'New Bus', and three doors will certainly do that, which leaves Dublin bus with just one door on each bus - I wonder is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[IMG][/img] dezeen_A-New-Bus-for-London-by-Heatherwick-Studios-7.jpg

dezeen_A-New-Bus-for-London-by-Heatherwick-Studios-7.jpg

CIE · 21-12-2011 10:33pm

Another thread on that abominable-looking bus? At the very least, that bus proves that you can build a rear-entrance bus in low-floor configuration; maybe that would help matters, if that were the sole entrance/exit with a conductor on as a permanent crew member.

You do realise (I hope) that the more doors you have, the greater the maintenance costs. More doors are helpful with dwell times only if you strictly adhere to OPO. (And I don't believe that the "honour system" is functional in any way.)

CIE · 21-12-2011 10:35pm

Being made of lightweight materials does not guarantee that the kerb weight of the bus overall will be lighter. Nor does the Daily Mail say that it would.

LordSutch wrote: »

One thing that I really don't like is the lack of a back window upstairs, I understand that there is a compressor or something like that behind the upstairs back seats, but what a shame they had to place it there, it all looks a bit claustrophobic to me and you cant see out the back unless you are on the staircase

Omission of a rear window was not necessary, even with all of that in place.

markpb · 21-12-2011 11:14pm

You're dead right OP but never fear, someone will be along soon with the excerpts from the Dublin Bus classic: Why That Works Everywhere But It Wouldn't Work Here. Expect such classics as
- drivers can't line buses up properly because of bad parking (except where there's no bad parking)
- people would get angry if they could normally use the middle door but couldn't occasionally because of bad parking
- its too litigious here for drivers to risk it (but they manage it in American cities where no lawyers exist)
- where would the prams and shopping go?
- we need extra space for wheelchairs and prams and no other city has managed to do both without defying the laws of time and physics
- people stand in the door blocking it
- people might get on without paying
- people might jam the door and disable the bus
- more doors = more money (but dwell time is free apparently)

I'm sure there are more that I've forgotten.

n97 mini · 21-12-2011 11:53pm

We usually re-invent the wheel wrong here (Leap card, e-voting, etc)

A few times. No guarantee we'll get it right eventually either.

L1011 · 22-12-2011 12:34am

I believe all new DB buses from now on (and they actually are ordering some) will be dual door again.

Whether they'll run the second door is another matter unfortunately...

foggy_lad · 22-12-2011 1:02am

Apart from being quite ugly the new london busses appear to have less seating capacity downstairs and less standing room when loaded. what exactly will the seating capacity be compared to the tri-axle busses here? the Bus Eireann double deck coaches probably have more capacity and also have two stairs and rear opening doors.

markpb · 22-12-2011 1:14am

NBFL: 87 (upper: 40, lower: 22 and 25 standing)
DB VT: 119 (upper: 57, lower: 35 and 27 standing)
DB EV: 94 (upper: 47, lower: 26 and 21 standing)

It's not a staggering difference between our EV and their NBFL but since people can board and alight faster, the bus should be able to move around faster and, hence, carry more people overall.

I doubt there are many TfL buses that sit at stops for 5-8 minutes loading, something that I've seen happen countless times on bus DB routes in the city centre.

foggy_lad · 22-12-2011 3:00am

markpb wrote: »

NBFL: 87 (upper: 40, lower: 22 and 25 standing)
DB VT: 119 (upper: 57, lower: 35 and 27 standing)
DB EV: 94 (upper: 47, lower: 26 and 21 standing)

It's not a staggering difference between our EV and their NBFL but since people can board and alight faster, the bus should be able to move around faster and, hence, carry more people overall.

I doubt there are many TfL buses that sit at stops for 5-8 minutes loading, something that I've seen happen countless times on bus DB routes in the city centre.

True but London has the oyster card as well as a whole range of cost saving prepaid options which are made more attractive to customers because transport for London are serious about reducing dwell times while Dublin bus and CIE have done very little towards that end, in fact the new €55,000,000 leap card has brought dwell times back several years by forcing even more driver participation in boarding passengers who should be able to just tag on like they can in London!

bk · 22-12-2011 5:23am

And it isn't just those crazy Londoners who know nothing about running a decent public transport system who are using three door buses, it is also those crazy Berliners:

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:Berlin_Omnibus_Linie_100_Doppeldecker.JPG

Sure what do they know about public transport.

So we are finally going to return to dual door operation, just when everyone else seems to be going triple door and DB finished replacing their entire fleet with new low floor buses, genius!!!

Edit: Look those crazy Danes are using the same, they even have triple door single deckers:
http://sgforums.com/forums/1279/topics/294096?page=5
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=4324385&postcount=123

bk · 22-12-2011 5:58am

Oh just came across this interesting article:

http://citytransport.info/Carry.htm

I love the 15 meter long, 4 axle, triple door, triple staircase German bus with 182 passenger capacity!!

Also the articulated double decker.

AlekSmart · 22-12-2011 6:31am

markpb wrote: »

I doubt there are many TfL buses that sit at stops for 5-8 minutes loading, something that I've seen happen countless times on bus DB routes in the city centre.

But the real tradgedy is that nobody in authority percieves this as a problem...we will plough on,Titanic like,with purchasing all manner of bells,whistles and stuff with flashing lights,whilst gleefully operating a Fare System dating all the way back to Mr Bianconi in the 18th Century

Leap card is yet another example of introducing a very capable,desirable system but overlaying it atop something which has decomposed,then wondering why it starts to smell too......:(

kraggy · 22-12-2011 6:37am

AlekSmart wrote: »

markpb wrote: »

I doubt there are many TfL buses that sit at stops for 5-8 minutes loading, something that I've seen happen countless times on bus DB routes in the city centre.

But the real tradgedy is that nobody in authority percieves this as a problem...we will plough on,Titanic like,with purchasing all manner of bells,whistles and stuff with flashing lights,whilst gleefully operating a Fare System dating all the way back to Mr Bianconi in the 18th Century

Leap card is yet another example of introducing a very capable,desirable system but overlaying it atop something which has decomposed,then wondering why it starts to smell too......:(

What about people getting on without paying?

The "new" Routemaster, any thoughts?

Comments