The "new" Routemaster, any thoughts?

Conway635 · 21-06-2013 4:27pm

For those wanting to experience this bus, this weekend marks the first fullscale conversion, with the LT type taking over route 24 from tomorrow (Sat 22nd June 2013) morning.

The 24 is actually a very good route for a "novice" visitor to London, as it is safe at both ends, passes Victoria Station, Parliament Square, Downing Street, Trafalgar Square and Tottenham Court Road, and, at the northern end, the terminus is in Hampstead, abundant with nice cafes, and with Hampstead Heath a five minute stroll away.

I have been very impressed with the buses themselves - attention has been paid to style inside, whereas buses are usually about outside style only.

The hybrid engine is outperforming both conventional buses, but more importantly, other hybrids, according to TFL.

And it is no mean workhorse - travelling on one full to the brim and with about 20 standing one Friday evening it was still very nippy.

C635

AlekSmart · 23-06-2013 4:05pm

Conway635 wrote: »

For those wanting to experience this bus, this weekend marks the first fullscale conversion, with the LT type taking over route 24 from tomorrow (Sat 22nd June 2013) morning.

I have been very impressed with the buses themselves - attention has been paid to style inside, whereas buses are usually about outside style only.

The hybrid engine is outperforming both conventional buses, but more importantly, other hybrids, according to TFL.

C635

All very true C635.

From being initially sceptical of this project,I have become a very committed fan of the NBfL,although at some point the "N" will have to go silent.

It is a truly amazing achievment to have taken a set of draft design parameters provided by TfL and reached production in such a short time frame.

The design team's major success was in Heatherwick Studio and Wright Bus each putting aside their differing perceptions and coming together to deliver this end result.

The vehicle they have produced is a VERY significant step forward in Hybrid Bus engineering terms,with,as C635 sez,the divil being in the detail.

Items such as the Bell Push system working on a Bluetooth Like principle,rather than using electric wiring,or the inductive-loop system built into the Cab and Front Stairs Area and for those customers with Hearing Aids to allow announcements to be heard more clearly.

Interior lighting is fully LED,which although first appearing somewhat dim,features angled light units,which provide directed light ideal for reading when seated.

Full Air Conditioning in the upper saloon directs refrigerated air downwards into the Lower Saloon in the opposite manner to the usual Bus Heating systems,as this comfort-factor is a HUGE issue in Londons summer climate.

As passenger familiarity increases with the LT,it's design encourages FLOW,in a manner which the NTA/BAC and the Irish Bishops seemingly regard as being the work of the divil himself.

Broad sweeping curve as passengers board at the front,with Oyster Readers at each of the three doors,with consideration being given to a further two readers upstairs.

The performance of the LT is also surprising many Drivers transferring over from full Diesel vehicles as acceleration is on a a par with a "normal" vehicle.

Braking is substantially smoother as it is almost fully electrically regenerative until the final few metres.

However,the real achivement of the LT is in its total emission count particular NOx and associated other gases which represent a very strong Political Issue in London Governmental terms.

The LT beats the rest hands down,but full comparisons won't be available until the route conversions proceed a bit further.

The reality of current Hybrid technology is the Expense of it precludes commercially focused operators from adopting it on a non-subsidised basis.

The LT fleet,for example is fully owned by TfL,with the operators thereby spared the upfront expense and added financial risk,should it prove dodgy.

Whether the NTA will ever be in a position to push at boundaries in this manner is open to question,but if Ireland continues to sign up to various EU directives then at some point it may have to find the resources to actually implement them.

Next London Bus Route up for conversion is the 11,in September.

MGWR · 23-06-2013 8:04pm

Conway635 wrote: »

For those wanting to experience this bus, this weekend marks the first fullscale conversion, with the LT type taking over route 24 from tomorrow (Sat 22nd June 2013) morning.

The 24 is actually a very good route for a "novice" visitor to London, as it is safe at both ends, passes Victoria Station, Parliament Square, Downing Street, Trafalgar Square and Tottenham Court Road, and, at the northern end, the terminus is in Hampstead, abundant with nice cafes, and with Hampstead Heath a five minute stroll away.

I have been very impressed with the buses themselves - attention has been paid to style inside, whereas buses are usually about outside style only.

The hybrid engine is outperforming both conventional buses, but more importantly, other hybrids, according to TFL.

And it is no mean workhorse - travelling on one full to the brim and with about 20 standing one Friday evening it was still very nippy

The real test will be how well it stands up to wear and tear. Many buses start out with a fair amount of power in their infancy only to struggle with a half load only a couple of years into their service lives.

"Style" has nothing to do with efficiency. I could care less about a "stylish" bus so long as it gets me to my destination in a relatively comfortable manner. I don't want to have to worry about fare increases due to expenditure on "style". Same goes for mechanical complexity, which goes up with hybrid vehicles; the more things you have to break, the more likely they will break and more often. (And this bus has three doors versus two.)

Davy · 23-06-2013 9:59pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Whats the thinking behind the diagonal line across the front, just to look different and stand out or had they more of a reason too it?

LordSutch · 23-06-2013 11:52pm

MGWR wrote: »

The real test will be how well it stands up to wear and tear. Many buses start out with a fair amount of power in their infancy only to struggle with a half load only a couple of years into their service lives.

They have of course had eight prototypes running for eighteen months now on route 38, so I guess that those eight have been very
closely monitored and checked for any weaknesses, so they must have a very good idea of any 'weak' components by this stage.

Davy wrote: »

Whats the thinking behind the diagonal line across the front, just to look different and stand out or had they more of a reason too it?

I guess its just part of the design as it slops down towards the footpath & front doors! so I guess if they ever build a left hand
drive version the slope on the front would go the other way. Personally Its one of the few things I don't like about the NBFL.

bk · 24-06-2013 8:57am

MGWR wrote: »

"Style" has nothing to do with efficiency. I could care less about a "stylish" bus so long as it gets me to my destination in a relatively comfortable manner. I don't want to have to worry about fare increases due to expenditure on "style". Same goes for mechanical complexity, which goes up with hybrid vehicles; the more things you have to break, the more likely they will break and more often. (And this bus has three doors versus two.)

I disagree strongly. Of course a bus needs to be well built and dependable above all else. But once you have that covered, style can play a big part in attracting people to public transport. For too long designers of buses, etc. have ignored psychology and how people perceive public transport to its detriment.

Relatively small changes and attention to detail can make a big difference in improving peoples perception of public transport. Just look at the number of people who take the Luas between Connolly and Heuston despite the bus often being faster.

Conway635 · 24-06-2013 9:27am

For way too long, little or no attention was paid to the passenger by bus designers. The upper deck in particular, was a box with seats in it, while a lot of money was being spent by manufacturers on outside styling, and operators on snazzy livery design.

The passengers were almost an afterthought - witness generations of Dublin buses which suffered from huge condensation problems, such that in winter the "inside" passenger in any bench seat would suffer a wet arm, and the amount of condensation running onto the floor frequently led to interiors being awash, and led to a perception that buses were leaky. A bit of thought on ventilation design would have made the difference here.

Dublin's EVs as originally built had a roof gutter that ended directly over the door, causing passengers on wet days to have to traverse a water curtain. This was modified after early in-service experience.

A little bit of thought for the passenger environment is not a watse of money, considering that the prime purpose of these vehicles is to carry human beings :-)

C635

Victor · 24-06-2013 12:15pm

BenShermin wrote: »

The attention to detail is excellent, things like the Stop bells being part of the poles themselves (and the same colour) struck me. I also noticed how the bus turned heads from the footpaths along the route, people know it's not a normal bus.

This is where 'cool' detracts from efficiency and accessibility. Things like buttons, doors, comms buttons, etc. should be done in a contrasting colour.

AlekSmart · 24-06-2013 5:08pm

Victor wrote: »

This is where 'cool' detracts from efficiency and accessibility. Things like buttons, doors, comms buttons, etc. should be done in a contrasting colour.

The actual NBfL Bell Push itself is red,and there is no shortage of them throughout the bus.

The interior design specs also fully comply with the relevant Accessibility and Disabled Access legislation...I would suggest that Tasteful might be a more accurate description than "cool" ?

From my own experiences on Saturday,the NBfL (LT) has a presence which stimulates curiosity and invites people to try it out.

I found that Children were particularly quick to spot the "Difference" in this Bus,and in some cases actually dragging Mammy and Daddy on to "see what it looks like inside".....No it's a long time indeed since a Bus design has managed to do this.

This attraction factor is something which advertising and promotion agencies would happily pay a fortune for,and I feel that the LT will indeed soon be seen as The London Bus,in the manner in which the RT's and RM's once were

MGWR · 25-06-2013 9:56pm

bk wrote: »

I disagree strongly. Of course a bus needs to be well built and dependable above all else. But once you have that covered, style can play a big part in attracting people to public transport. For too long designers of buses, etc. have ignored psychology and how people perceive public transport to its detriment.

Relatively small changes and attention to detail can make a big difference in improving peoples perception of public transport. Just look at the number of people who take the Luas between Connolly and Heuston despite the bus often being faster

The 90 is "often faster" at what times of day? Besides, it's probably the discounted return ticket that would attract more people to the Luas, as well as the ride on rails being more comfortable than bus suspensions over jagged road surfaces; quiet traction motors versus diesel vibrations would also help.

And I have never seen that "style" has led to an increase of passenger useage. Word of mouth in regards to reliability and frequency is what would work in that respect. Passengers are focussed on their destination and the seats not causing them pain en route, not what the bus looks like.

dfx- · 26-06-2013 5:53am

AlekSmart wrote: »

All very true C635.

From being initially sceptical of this project,I have become a very committed fan of the NBfL,although at some point the "N" will have to go silent.

It is a truly amazing achievment to have taken a set of draft design parameters provided by TfL and reached production in such a short time frame.

The design team's major success was in Heatherwick Studio and Wright Bus each putting aside their differing perceptions and coming together to deliver this end result.

The vehicle they have produced is a VERY significant step forward in Hybrid Bus engineering terms,with,as C635 sez,the divil being in the detail.

Items such as the Bell Push system working on a Bluetooth Like principle,rather than using electric wiring,or the inductive-loop system built into the Cab and Front Stairs Area and for those customers with Hearing Aids to allow announcements to be heard more clearly.

Interior lighting is fully LED,which although first appearing somewhat dim,features angled light units,which provide directed light ideal for reading when seated.

Full Air Conditioning in the upper saloon directs refrigerated air downwards into the Lower Saloon in the opposite manner to the usual Bus Heating systems,as this comfort-factor is a HUGE issue in Londons summer climate.

As passenger familiarity increases with the LT,it's design encourages FLOW,in a manner which the NTA/BAC and the Irish Bishops seemingly regard as being the work of the divil himself.

Broad sweeping curve as passengers board at the front,with Oyster Readers at each of the three doors,with consideration being given to a further two readers upstairs.

The performance of the LT is also surprising many Drivers transferring over from full Diesel vehicles as acceleration is on a a par with a "normal" vehicle.

Braking is substantially smoother as it is almost fully electrically regenerative until the final few metres.

However,the real achivement of the LT is in its total emission count particular NOx and associated other gases which represent a very strong Political Issue in London Governmental terms.

The LT beats the rest hands down,but full comparisons won't be available until the route conversions proceed a bit further.

The reality of current Hybrid technology is the Expense of it precludes commercially focused operators from adopting it on a non-subsidised basis.

The LT fleet,for example is fully owned by TfL,with the operators thereby spared the upfront expense and added financial risk,should it prove dodgy.

Whether the NTA will ever be in a position to push at boundaries in this manner is open to question,but if Ireland continues to sign up to various EU directives then at some point it may have to find the resources to actually implement them.

Next London Bus Route up for conversion is the 11,in September.

Even so, I'd still rather an AV from Dublin Bus... :P

Nothing bates a roaring vintage AV (00D)..

_Kaiser_ · 26-06-2013 12:20pm

dfx- wrote: »

Even so, I'd still rather an AV from Dublin Bus... :P

Nothing bates a roaring vintage AV (00D)..

And they DO roar I've noticed!

The AV/AX is a nice bus alright, more so than the EV I think. Just a pity we didn't get them in dual-door format (aside from the original Airlink allocation) but we'd have to USE those doors then and that's a whole other thread!

dublinman1990 · 26-06-2013 3:10pm

HOORAY FOR BBC 2!

The Borismaster will definitely be featured on the BBC2 documentary next Tuesday night at 9pm. The film crew has access to the building of that Bus in Ballymena including as it hitting the streets of London for the very 1st time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b036pgym

The programme is entitled "Bus Drivers". I gladly knew the BBC wouldn't let us down on this occasion. I wouldn't miss this for the world.

LordSutch · 27-06-2013 10:33am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

HOORAY FOR BBC 2!

... including as it hitting the streets of London for the very 1st time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b036pgym

The programme is entitled "Bus Drivers". I gladly knew the BBC wouldn't let us down on this occasion. I wouldn't miss this for the world.

Shame they filmed the Borismasters 1st day in London, because it was a total disaster!

The Air con stopped working, the rear door alarm kept going off. Finally it broke down and
had to be 'rebooted' before it could take off again. Not the most auspicious of Baptisms

)

_Kaiser_ · 27-06-2013 10:48am

LordSutch wrote: »

Shame they filmed the Borismasters 1st day in London, because it was a total disaster!

The Air con stopped working, the rear door alarm kept going off. Finally it broke down and
had to be 'rebooted' before it could take off again. Not the most auspicious of Baptisms )

Ah to be fair the KD was worse.. it didn't even make it out the (garage) door under its own power!

AlekSmart · 27-06-2013 5:29pm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Ah to be fair the KD was worse.. it didn't even make it out the (garage) door under its own power!

Ah the good oul days,Joxer....rare oul times indeed....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK46FF4F5T4

The gent interviewed at the beginning is Bill Kretz,CEO of Bombardier Irl,and the "K" in KC,KD,KE and KR

Going Forward · 03-07-2013 12:44pm

Davy wrote: »

Whats the thinking behind the diagonal line across the front, just to look different and stand out or had they more of a reason too it?

To give it a sweeping, modernistic look.
Which just doesnt work IMO.

I also dislike the very utilitarian headlights- no little bit of personality to it, in the one area where a vehicle can make a "connection" with people!

Going Forward · 03-07-2013 12:53pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

HOORAY FOR BBC 2!

The Borismaster will definitely be featured on the BBC2 documentary next Tuesday night at 9pm. The film crew has access to the building of that Bus in Ballymena including as it hitting the streets of London for the very 1st time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b036pgym

The programme is entitled "Bus Drivers". I gladly knew the BBC wouldn't let us down on this occasion. I wouldn't miss this for the world.

Good programme, I was amazed at the scale of backroom infrastructure, staff, surveillance monitoring etc which runs in the background (and which needs to be paid for) to keep the routes running and profitably!

Also well amused by the blatant disregard for Health and Safety and environment by the mobile mechanic fixing the bus on the side of the road with not so much as a warning triangle.

The developers have also set themselves up for life too, as with modern vehicle technology you cant change a lightbulb without taking half the car apart, the same will be true of this, with licensed software updates, unrepairable parts and so on.

I would be wary that it is a public test vehicle for unproven technology and at £365,000 per bus, its rather expensive too.

dublinman1990 · 03-07-2013 3:01pm

While watching it last night; I did feel sympathy for the conductor who had wait for six hours attempting to get on the new Borismaster.

As soon he heard there was one Borismaster going to France. He would presume that all hell had broken loose considering there was only eight of them.

Although; it was a very good documentary from the BBC. It will be off for the next fortnight though.

dfx- · 04-07-2013 9:24pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

The gent interviewed at the beginning is Bill Kretz,CEO of Bombardier Irl,and the "K" in KC,KD,KE and KR

Aaah, so that explains it

Trebor176 · 23-09-2013 1:23pm

This looks bad. I hope all involved will be ok. Apparently the bus was only a day in service on the 11.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/three-seriously-hurt-as-boris-bus-on-wrong-route-causes-pileup-on-first-day-of-service-8834134.html

dublinman1990 · 24-09-2013 10:56am

Trebor176 wrote: »

This looks bad. I hope all involved will be ok. Apparently the bus was only a day in service on the 11.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/three-seriously-hurt-as-boris-bus-on-wrong-route-causes-pileup-on-first-day-of-service-8834134.html

Yikes; that is one nasty hit on a new bus with hopefully not many more to come in the future.

I am glad everyone will be ok after this very serious accident.

TFL would surely be investigating how this bus got a stuck throttle while travelling at speeds of 30mph. Boris Johnson should have been able to get a team of Transport safety professionals to carry out a detailed check up on the safety features before the bus went into service which may indicate something might go wrong with the specification of the vehicle.

Despite that every other bus in the London fleet goes through crashes at some point in their lifetime. I had thought that the NB4L would have somewhat relieved that scenario of that happening again. What has happened here is the complete opposite & the difference is that it might become a very costly one.

AlekSmart · 24-09-2013 12:19pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Yikes; that is one nasty hit on a new bus with hopefully not many more to come in the future.

I am glad everyone will be ok after this very serious accident.

TFL would surely be investigating how this bus got a stuck throttle while travelling at speeds of 30mph. Boris Johnson should have been able to get a team of Transport safety professionals to carry out a detailed check up on the safety features before the bus went into service which may indicate something might go wrong with the specification of the vehicle.

Despite that every other bus in the London fleet goes through crashes at some point in their lifetime. I had thought that the NB4L would have somewhat relieved that scenario of that happening again. What has happened here is the complete opposite & the difference is that it might become a very costly one.

Ah but...that presupposes that this incident is Bus related.

We know little as yet,except for the fact that the Bus was Off-Route and being driven in a haphazard manner.

I think I'll wait a bit for the results of the many investigations now under way (This IS TfL after all.)

The actual cause(s) of this incident may well not involve the Buses themselves at all....;)

The "new" Routemaster, any thoughts?

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