Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Pete_Cavan · 25-06-2010 7:55pm

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that we should scrap the D line, i'm just saying that in the sections of the line that would duplicate with the metro north, which is about 1.5 km by my ruler, that we shouldn't go through the pain of above ground construction and that we should use what will be existing infrastructure at the time of the BXD construction and route it undergound instead, while also upgrading it to rapid transit.

BXD cannot go underground. MN works because SSG station is over 20m below ground and comes above ground beyond Ballymun. IC goes underground at docklands and comes above ground at Inchicore (or vice verse). The point is you need a large area of open ground to get the levels for the tunnel to fall to the required depth. This cannot happen in the city centre where there is very little open ground and you have to contend with foundations and buildings without foundations that would be undermined by large scale excavation nearby.

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

According to this report the BXD line won't be started until the Metro North is completed, 2015 at the earliest.

MN will be built first but enabling works will be completed at the same time to remove the need to dig up the city centre twice.

However, Mr Dempsey has insisted that the Metro must be built before the Luas link-up can proceed, but has agreed for the excavation and utilities work to be done earlier.
The route of the underground Metro and overground Luas link follow very similar paths.
By applying for the railway order yesterday, Luas chiefs plan to carry out the digging work in tandem with the Metro excavations.
The alternative is to dig up the city centre, build the Metro, and then come back and dig up the city in the exact same locations for the Luas link-up line.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/capital-braced-for-five-years-of-traffic-chaos-from-luas-and-metro-2230811.html

Rock of Gibraltar · 25-06-2010 8:36pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

There is little or no appetite in building up a highly efficient, densely populated capital city here. Decentralisation is the prevailing minset. Until that changes, there won't be the level of ambition for Dublin's transport infrastructure that you advocate. Pity.

I don't know about that, I don't have the info to hand (and I could be way off) but wasn't the Broadstone/Philsborough area ear marked for medium highrise development in the Dublin Development Plan? Which would make off road public transport very attractive seeing as the area is already congested.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

BXD cannot go underground. MN works because SSG station is over 20m below ground and comes above ground beyond Ballymun. IC goes underground at docklands and comes above ground at Inchicore (or vice verse). The point is you need a large area of open ground to get the levels for the tunnel to fall to the required depth. This cannot happen in the city centre where there is very little open ground and you have to contend with foundations and buildings without foundations that would be undermined by large scale excavation nearby.

I'm not an engineer but the Broadstone site is enormous, surely there's enough space to bring a railway tunnel above ground here. The Abercrombie report in the 20's even siad that Broadstone was the ideal site to begin a railway tunnel, which at the time advocated tunneling to Harcourt St. station.

sdanseo · 26-06-2010 11:27pm

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Dublin Bus Objected to two tram lines.

Seriously, the only acceptable answer to that objection should have been for Dublin Bus to take a long walk of a short pier etc etc. O'Connell Street has more than enough room for buses.

The taxi rank right in the middle of it needs to go bye byes though, sackville place is more than adequate.

trellheim · 28-06-2010 12:17am

well isn't that a well thought out reasoned answer; I'll counter it with my magic 5th dimension that the buses the LUAS will displace will use to get up O'Connell st [ or somewhere nearby ]

sdanseo · 28-06-2010 12:27am

trellheim wrote: »

well isn't that a well thought out reasoned answer; I'll counter it with my magic 5th dimension that the buses the LUAS will displace will use to get up O'Connell st [ or somewhere nearby ]

O'Connell St is huge. Plenty of room in the central median for two lines without displacing ANY buses. The only possible interference would be at a stop where surely an island platform wort sort the space issue.

None of that would ruin the street either, it's pure common sense!

Edit: Just did the google earth research: The median on O'Connell St is 8m wide, tram plus island platform (one line either side) needs 9m looking at Busáras stop. Surely they could find 50 cm from the footpath on either side, plus a tiny bit of resurfacing and new lines?

Victor · 28-06-2010 12:48am

sdonn wrote: »

O'Connell St is huge. Plenty of room in the central median for two lines without displacing ANY buses. The only possible interference would be at a stop where surely an island platform wort sort the space issue.

None of that would ruin the street either, it's pure common sense!

Um, remind me whats on the median.

http://www.tropicalisland.de/ireland/dublin/river_liffey/pages/DUB%20Dublin%20-%20O%20Connell%20Bridge%20and%20O%20Connell%20Street%203008x2000.html

sdanseo · 28-06-2010 1:54am

Victor wrote: »

Um, remind me whats on the median.

http://www.tropicalisland.de/ireland/dublin/river_liffey/pages/DUB%20Dublin%20-%20O%20Connell%20Bridge%20and%20O%20Connell%20Street%203008x2000.html

So don't put the island stop there and put the rails either side of it. Easy peasy. :rolleyes:

By the way I know there's underground access to it, that might be tricky, but I'm going by what we plebs can see on the surface.

BluntGuy · 30-06-2010 8:16am

Railway Order Documents available online now:

http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/

rameire · 30-06-2010 10:44am

cheers for the Luas Pórn Bluntguy.

I have had a quick gander over a few of the docs.
there is a lot of road sharing for the tracks.
so even though there is a luas track there is still a road lane that can be used by motorists.

There is a lot more link-up-age.
The green line continues on into the new line, there are no end buffers between the lines, due to this there is a rest area for the luas just after the stephens green stop at the top of dawson street.
there is a link up with the red line heading towards Jervis so in theory trams can go all over the place.
there is also a link up at the top of O Connell street to go back around to go back towards the liffey instead of heading towards Boombridge.
they even have the location of the Metro stations on the drawings to show the space that will be left after all is built.
it all looks good so far.

markpb · 30-06-2010 10:48am

rameire wrote: »

there is a link up with the red line heading towards Jervis so in theory trams can go all over the place.

I haven't looked at the new documents yet but the article RPA published last week said that the BXD/Red linkup was for out of service trams only.

KC61 · 30-06-2010 11:48am

Looking at the maps I am struck again by the amount of bus stops that are indicated as having to "relocate", particularly on O'Connell Street northbound, Grafton Street (at Trinity College), College Street, Hawkins Street and Marlborough Street.

Where exactly are these stops to relocate to? I know that the number of routes on O'Connell Street will drop as a result of Network Direct, as will the requirement for a terminus in Hawkins Street, but there are limits! There have already been a large number of stops eliminated due to LUAS.

We already have the ludicrous situation of a bus stop located on O'Connell Bridge southbound with no shelter whatsoever from the elements due to the "trial" cycle lane on Lower O'Connell Street between Abbey Street and Eden Quay. Is the same to happen northbound now too?

Cool Mo D · 30-06-2010 12:27pm

I think what will have to happen is that O'Connell Street to Nassau street (except O'Connell bridge) will be reserved for buses, Luas, bikes and access, and major changes to surrounding streets - making D'Olier and Pearse and Nassau street two way, for one. Westmoreland street could be made two-way for buses, relocating some routes from D'Olier street, and adding stops.

With the new bridge between Marlborough and Hawkins street, some cross city routes and stops could be rerouted that way.

If you limit cars along the central O'Connell to Nassau axis, there is plenty of space for bus and Luas.

Sulmac · 30-06-2010 12:46pm

From this map, it appears the RPA have developed some common sense and decided to have the line connect to the Lucan Line (Line F), athough only for trams going to/from the south, not the north.

edit: This map also shows a connection from the Red Line twice at Abbey Street (once at O'Connell Street, the other at Marlborough Street), so we could have Docklands-Sandyford or Sandyford-Heuston services (you get the idea).

BrianD · 30-06-2010 12:49pm

darkman2 wrote: »

I said it before but im against a line to Broombridge on the simple basis that it would be trashed by elements of the locals and because of a link up with the other lines, by proxy, it will make the other lines more unsafe for commuters. In a perfect world it is a good idea but I think the line would be unsafe for commuters. And if anyone has any doubt catch a train at Broombridge station one day to find out! I think this one line would be much worse then parts of the red line.

You should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking to write this kind of rubbish in a public forum. If you have an informed opinion, make it but don't enter this kind of junk.

There are many other rail systems in the world that many posters on this forum hold up as shining examples of how it should be done. Most are far from it and suffer the same sorts of anti-social issues that occur on most public transport networks. For example, I thought that the rail system is Sydney was pretty good and safe. Most people I worked with at the time wouldn't let their kids on it.

I'll get the cotton wool wrap for you.

Stark · 30-06-2010 12:58pm

I know people in work who've had bricks thrown through the windows at them on the bus to work. One of them is blind so it's especially dangerous for him as he can't see or know to duck/step away from the windows if the bus is passing by a few dodgy characters with projectiles in their hands. I'm sure he'd appreciate all the cotton wrap you can give him.

KC61 · 30-06-2010 1:14pm

Sulmac wrote: »

From this map, it appears the RPA have developed some common sense and decided to have the line connect to the Lucan Line (Line F), athough only for trams going to/from the south, not the north.

edit: This map also shows a connection from the Red Line twice at Abbey Street (once at O'Connell Street, the other at Marlborough Street), so we could have Docklands-Sandyford or Sandyford-Heuston services (you get the idea).

The RPA have already said that there will be no through movements between line BXD and the Red line. The connections will only be used for out of service stock movements.

Sulmac · 30-06-2010 1:27pm

KC61 wrote: »

The RPA have already said that there will be no through movements between line BXD and the Red line. The connections will only be used for out of service stock movements.

Well that's shortsighted...

Cool Mo D · 30-06-2010 1:33pm

Sulmac wrote: »

Well that's shortsighted...

If the physical connections are there, it's simple to run a new route. I don't think there's any harm building operating BXD as a simple green line extension at first anyway. Shortsighted would be not linking them at all, or linking them in ways that would impede future possible services

KC61 · 30-06-2010 3:03pm

Sulmac wrote: »

Well that's shortsighted...

Not necessarily. Passengers are often like sheep and keeping it simple by offering two distinct services (Green and Red lines staying separate) means that they won't end up going the wrong way!

There really isn't room to allow all the options.

What they have provided for is a northbound/westbound connection from O'Connell Street to Middle Abbey Street, and westbound/southbound from Lower Abbey Street to Marlborough Street.

Cool Mo D · 30-06-2010 5:40pm

Looking again, I'm not totally happy with the proposed connections. Really, there should be a delta junction at College Green, and connections from the Red line both north and south at both O'Connell street, and/or Marlborough street. This would allow Red line trains to go around the loop, or run towards Stephens Green, and would allow Green line trains to head towards Connolly or the Point.

Chris_5339762 · 30-06-2010 5:51pm

Sulmac wrote: »

Well that's shortsighted...

Shortsighted is having two utterly unconnected Luas lines. Ireland isnt good at anything else.

Craig Fay · 30-06-2010 6:02pm

Anyone else notice the 9 car rolling stock they're using in the stop diagrams?

(Am I right in thinking the Green Line currently uses 7 car?)

KC61 · 30-06-2010 9:13pm

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Looking again, I'm not totally happy with the proposed connections. Really, there should be a delta junction at College Green, and connections from the Red line both north and south at both O'Connell street, and/or Marlborough street. This would allow Red line trains to go around the loop, or run towards Stephens Green, and would allow Green line trains to head towards Connolly or the Point.

I would think it better to keep it simple and keep the lines separate and then change at interchange points.

L1011 · 30-06-2010 9:37pm

Craig Fay wrote: »

Anyone else notice the 9 car rolling stock they're using in the stop diagrams?
(Am I right in thinking the Green Line currently uses 7 car?)

5 car.

BrianD · 01-07-2010 12:56am

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Looking again, I'm not totally happy with the proposed connections. Really, there should be a delta junction at College Green, and connections from the Red line both north and south at both O'Connell street, and/or Marlborough street. This would allow Red line trains to go around the loop, or run towards Stephens Green, and would allow Green line trains to head towards Connolly or the Point.

Why would you want to do that?

Firstly, there is no evidence that users of the green line will want to use the red line or solely use trams on any future line.

Moist transport systems work on having defined lines or routes. Why would you want to allow red line trams go elsewhere other than it's route? All is needed is integrated ticketing and to have either a shared stop (unlikely) or adajcent stops so people can transfer from one line to the other. Look at the London Underground - while I'm sure some lines are technically connected in the mind of the commuter every line is distinct and requires a change to get from one to the other.

The proposed routing and plans for the green line extension really show that all this talk about the lines not joining up is much a do about nothing. The only real advantage is engineering - they might be able to close or downgrade a depot and can move rolling stock from one line to the other and of course had the lines been connected, green line users would have been able to get further north into the centre than the current terminus.

Cool Mo D · 01-07-2010 10:54am

BrianD wrote: »

Why would you want to do that?

Firstly, there is no evidence that users of the green line will want to use the red line or solely use trams on any future line.

It doesn't matter if there is no evidence. If it is done during construction, it is cheap. If it is left until later, it will be very expensive, and require line closures. Even if the movements are rarely used, it is a minor cost. But, if later, the RPA realises that there are large flows heading from Heuston to Parnell Square, or Lucan to Connolly, it allows for flexibility in how routes are run.

At the very least, it would allow for special services from the southside, to places like the Point.

It also allows extension of routes easily. What if the Lucan Luas were to be extended to Ringsend via Pearse street? It would need to be connected to the Northbound BXD.

And it also allows for more flexible response to problems on the line. If a Luas derails at Abbey street, the service will be cut back to Smithfield. With proper connections to the BXD loop, trams could reroute around it as needed.

All this for some minor trackwork.

steve-o · 01-07-2010 12:52pm

The BX part of this is so badly thought out.

The Dawson St to College Green corridor is too narrow for both Luas and buses. Luas is either going to be painfully slow or the RPA plan to evict the buses and there's no apparent plan as to where they'll go. A hell of a lot more people use buses than will use Luas.
The Green line will be integrated with Metro and Dart and Stephen's Green. Connecting it to the red line adds very little other than satisfying an irrational desire to connect the Luas lines for the sake of completeness. A relatively small proportion of Green line passengers will actually be going to Red line or line D destinations, and even without BX they would all be reachable with another connection.
Connecting BX and/or D at O'Connell St / Marlborough St is unimaginative.

I personally think that any on-street Luas is bound to be as bad or worse then the on-street parts of the Red line, but here are some other ideas:

Why can't the Green line extension go somewhere else? How about down Baggot St to Lansdowne Road? (Merrion Row is a bit skinny but the rest of the route looks straightforward).
Why can't Line D take a route away from O'Connell St? How about a route from Broadstone to Christchurch, giving connections to Dart underground while still crossing the Red line.

Am I completely mad?

markpb · 01-07-2010 12:57pm

steve-o wrote: »

The Green line will be integrated with Metro and Dart and Stephen's Green. Connecting it to the red line adds very little other than satisfying an irrational desire to connect the Luas lines for the sake of completeness. A relatively small proportion of Green line passengers will actually be going to Red line or line D destinations, and even without BX they would all be reachable with another connection.

I agree with (almost) everything else you said but I can't understand the reluctance to join the two lines. Do people genuinely believe the Dart would be as successful as it is if people had to get off at Connolly, get a bus to Pearse and get back on the Dart? Even with integrated ticketing (which we don't have), buying a luas+bus ticket is more expensive so people aren't going to bother.

How can this be so hard to understand? Lots of people commute from the northside to the south city centre, south of the city and to Sandyford.

sdanseo · 01-07-2010 5:31pm

steve-o wrote: »

The BX part of this is so badly thought out.
The Dawson St to College Green corridor is too narrow for both Luas and buses. Luas is either going to be painfully slow or the RPA plan to evict the buses and there's no apparent plan as to where they'll go. A hell of a lot more people use buses than will use Luas.

The Green line will be integrated with Metro and Dart and Stephen's Green. Connecting it to the red line adds very little other than satisfying an irrational desire to connect the Luas lines for the sake of completeness. A relatively small proportion of Green line passengers will actually be going to Red line or line D destinations, and even without BX they would all be reachable with another connection.

Connecting BX and/or D at O'Connell St / Marlborough St is unimaginative.

I personally think that any on-street Luas is bound to be as bad or worse then the on-street parts of the Red line, but here are some other ideas:
Why can't the Green line extension go somewhere else? How about down Baggot St to Lansdowne Road? (Merrion Row is a bit skinny but the rest of the route looks straightforward).

Why can't Line D take a route away from O'Connell St? How about a route from Broadstone to Christchurch, giving connections to Dart underground while still crossing the Red line.

Am I completely mad?

Here's what I'd do, personally -

Put the line down Dawson Street and College Green as Planned.
Convert College Green in its entirety into a plaza as has been suggested by many. Construct a full delta junction and Terminus stop for Line F for future use, as well as the connection to the Green Line in both directions. (I'll do a sketch later in work and post it up)
Double track down the eastern side of Westmoreland street, not unlike the way it goes down Harcourt street with the tram lane on one side. Whole street needs a resurface and remarking anyway.
Double track down the current median of O'Connell Street; where necessary extending said median into Lane 2 in each direction (like to avoid the spire) and compensating by reclaiming a metre or so from the footpaths on either side. The trees may be a little close to the edge but they're not protected as they're brand new.
You're left with two lanes in each direction or one lane plus basically a 1km-long lay-by. The second is a great option - plenty of scope for bus stops and if I'm honest I don't think a few bus shelters would ruin the street too much.
Finally, an island platform on O'Connell Street at the GPO, to be named O'Connell Street. Two stops on the one street when you have another at Dominick St is a bit much.

An little scheme that would work even better would need to be undertaken by the council and Dublin Bus as well, it would require working together so not likely

this would be to divert all buses off O'Connell Street and this IMO makes the one-lane each way option very viable. Use the space on Marlborough Street that you would have taken up with a Luas line and stop to make a proper bus stop area with proper provisions like shelters etc.

All buses currently using O'Connell St to divert down Cathal Brugha Street, Marlborough Street and across the new bridge to Hawkins Street, and from there to Westland Row and Nassau Street (reversing the current one way flow for buses only with a contra-flow bus lane), and thereafter Kildare Street.

Lastly a provision at College green for buses coming along Nassau St. to go around to Dame street with provision there for many more bus stops, again properly provisioned with shelters etc.

steve-o · 01-07-2010 6:01pm

markpb wrote: »

How can this be so hard to understand? Lots of people commute from the northside to the south city centre, south of the city and to Sandyford.

I can't see why one particular group of people is more deserving of a direct service. It's going to be a network, not Carlsbergland with door-to-door service for all. Many will be able to get to Stephen's Green on Dart or Metro and change to Luas there. Others living on Line D could get there with 2 changes. Passengers travelling on DART between northside and southside will need to make a change at Pearse, and I haven't seen any outcry yet. Passengers generally don't mind enroute changes if the rail network is reliable and frequent. If the problem is integrated ticketing then surely IE and RPA can be forced to co-operate by 2018 or whenever all this is all built.

Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

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