Gardai to be properly trained to take part in high speed pursuits

Jude13 · 23-06-2014 12:30pm #1

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/only-qualified-gardai-can-speed-or-use-siren-from-next-week-30376361.html

I was naive enough to think that all Gardai flying down the road sirens blaring had the required advanced training.

Reati · 23-06-2014 12:43pm

Some shocking typo's in that article. Do these people not proof read.

Anyway, on topic - I'm surprised at a) You didn't need to complete a course to drive at speeds beyond the limits and b) you need a course to use the blue lights.

I get the point of making members do a course on driving at high speed (not that you'd get many squad cars over 120

) but crippling the force by not allowing enough time for members to get up to speed on the course (Pun intended) is kind of OIrish!

Jude13 · 23-06-2014 1:18pm

A bit Irish also not to think it a good idea that a course should be undertaken as a matter of course for high speed driving.

I wonder how long it took someone to figure out that this was a good idea. I am sure it is well out of control of the drivers as they would be keen to get the training.

Zambia · 23-06-2014 3:43pm

The article does not say how many officers are currently on just chiefs.

Little CuChulainn · 23-06-2014 4:23pm

It's a real farce. If a Garda on CPD1 wants to pull someone over they have to follow them until they decide to stop of their own accord and run up to the window and tell them to pull over. There will not be enough official drivers to cover for emergency situations and prisoner transports.

Potential-Monke · 23-06-2014 6:17pm

The Chiefs issue had been long fought, and it was eventually replaced with this CPD. Now, those on CPD1 are basically the same as those who were on chiefs, and nothing has changed really, only that they've put all the responsibility on those on CPD1 rather than on those in charge who should have a car course going every week. But, it all boils back down to money and the people don't want money been spent on Gardaí, so ye get what ye asked for. Absolutely scandalous that someones own insurance/licence can be effected by carrying out the duties assigned to them as part of their job, especially considering it's not normal driving. The best driver in the world can be caught out by other drivers stupidity.

Haven't seen this latest GRA notice about this July 1st deadline, so don't know exactly what's changing from when CPD first came in.

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 23-06-2014 9:13pm

The ags are getting slaughtered by the public and the politicians and the press but with stupid rules like these's there in for an awful lot more abuse when the response times starting ticking into the hours rather than minutes.

This article makes for worrying reading because 7 days from now we as in the taxpayer are going to see a real change in policing in Ireland whereby when you call 999 you'd better hope there is a trained driver on that shift when you call because if there isn't you may as well order a curry for the last meal because it might get there faster than the guards with this new rule.

This is by far one of the most stupidest political moves I have heard of.
Gardai are trusted public servants (unlike TD's) were when you call in a panic and you hear the sirens in a distance you know there on rushing to you. Now with this new rule your going to her silence until there right outside your door.

http://www.herald.ie/news/gardai-cant-speed-or-flash-blue-lights-until-they-pass-test-30375350.html

Greenmachine · 23-06-2014 9:33pm

I would actually take a different view point. Seeing the amount of police vehicles without lights or siren breaking the speed limits.
I think there are a couple of things that come to mind for me. Firstly before a member of AGS graduates they should have undertaken all the necessary road training to allow them to drive with the necessary control when needed to cope with higher speed. I don't think that fact alone that a car being driven by an AGS member is reason enough for speed in excess of that of other road users.

I nearly came off a motorcycle on the south quays a few years ago. When a car convey with a garda escort cross the bridge at wood quay in front of me when I had the right of way. There was no kind of indication that they would advance past their red lights such as a siren or blue lights.
Not aware of any legislation to allow the guards to do as they did in that case or indeed requiring me to stop.

secman · 23-06-2014 9:44pm

Proper order that they should be properly trained in advanced driving techniques. Up to now on a nod and a wink untrained personnel could drive at high speed. This ruling should speed up the training process and we will get a better service. Probably one of many changes required since the recent debacles. Heard a senior American cop speaking about the garda siochacana internal control set up and by all accounts it needs major surgery tp bring it up to modern day standards.

DesertCreat_15 · 23-06-2014 9:56pm

In the long run it makes sense.

In the interim, the ban can have devastating consequences. They Garda management should have put extra resources into getting all current officers trained in advanced driving techniques if they knew this ban was coming into effect so soon.

kub · 23-06-2014 10:53pm

Potential-Monke wrote: »

The Chiefs issue had been long fought, and it was eventually replaced with this CPD. Now, those on CPD1 are basically the same as those who were on chiefs, and nothing has changed really, only that they've put all the responsibility on those on CPD1 rather than on those in charge who should have a car course going every week. But, it all boils back down to money and the people don't want money been spent on Gardaí, so ye get what ye asked for. Absolutely scandalous that someones own insurance/licence can be effected by carrying out the duties assigned to them as part of their job, especially considering it's not normal driving. The best driver in the world can be caught out by other drivers stupidity.

Haven't seen this latest GRA notice about this July 1st deadline, so don't know exactly what's changing from when CPD first came in.

Sorry are you serious, a Garda on a Supers nod, can be personally held accountable on their own licence, insurance etc?
I admire anyone who drives a patrol vehicle and has not done the course, it is a pity The Independent did not care to mention that.

Jude13 · 24-06-2014 6:09am

"Absolutely scandalous that someones own insurance/licence can be effected by carrying out the duties assigned to them as part of their job"

Surely that's the same as any job?

I'm amazed that this isnt part of normal training and that people thought it was okay to have any tom dick or harry racing around the roads once they had a uniform on.

Could they have it so high speed drivers get a better package once they are trained in? The Gardai could pay for their own training. In allot of professions you train yourself to a higher level hoping that you will get more responsibility and more money. Look at charterships and LLM's

audidiesel · 24-06-2014 8:20am

Jude13 wrote: »

The Gardai could pay for their own training. In allot of professions you train yourself to a higher level hoping that you will get more responsibility and more money. Look at charterships and LLM's

I wont pay for my job to train me. It should be a basic requirement that they teach every one of us. There is no private equilivant we could take that they recognise in any case.

What I love about this is that anyone on cpd1 now (which is a lot of members) cannot under ANY circumstances use lights and/or sirens while the vehicle is moving. it doesn't matter if someone is critically wounded, your escorting a woman in labour, a drink driver, or being shot at! there are absolutely no exceptions to this rule. If you break it your held personally liable.

Get used to waiting a few more hours for us to get out to ye if ye call us. Its an absolute joke of a system. But then again what do you expect in this job anymore.

emmet the rover · 24-06-2014 10:01am

stupid mistake similar to when they changed the rules about provisional license drivers being unaccompanied without giving people enough time to prepare.

I would be of the mindset that every member of the force should be trained up to the same standard before driving but giving a months timeline does not make sense.

I am not a member of AGS but I am about to undergo paramedic training in the UK and they will be putting me on a advanced driving course before letting me progress.

Potential-Monke · 24-06-2014 10:26am

kub wrote: »

Sorry are you serious, a Garda on a Supers nod, can be personally held accountable on their own licence, insurance etc?
I admire anyone who drives a patrol vehicle and has not done the course, it is a pity The Independent did not care to mention that.

Yup, i'm serious.

Jude13 wrote: »

"Absolutely scandalous that someones own insurance/licence can be effected by carrying out the duties assigned to them as part of their job"

Surely that's the same as any job?

No, it's completely different. I've no problem with expecting my own licence/insurance to be effected by errors in normal driving, but any other job (outside of the emergency services) does not expect you to break the rules of the road in order to do that job. That's the difference. Why should my own insurance/licence be effected when my job requires me to break the rules of the road? You think ambulance and fire brigade drivers get "Chiefs permission" to drive their vehicles?

Jude13 wrote: »

I'm amazed that this isnt part of normal training and that people thought it was okay to have any tom dick or harry racing around the roads once they had a uniform on.

Could they have it so high speed drivers get a better package once they are trained in? The Gardai could pay for their own training. In allot of professions you train yourself to a higher level hoping that you will get more responsibility and more money. Look at charterships and LLM's

It isn't part of normal training because that makes sense. Sense has nothing to do in AGS. It's all about money, and that's all it will be about for the next few years at least. And it's all well and good doing courses to further your career prospects, that does happen (members doing part-time/evening courses in law, criminology, psychology, etc), but why should i have to pay to do a course which should be standard? Not that there's any course out there to prepare anyone for emergency response.

Guaranteed if they made it so that members who pay for themselves can do the course, no one would take it. It should be a basic, standard course which every member has to do, and just goes to show the absolute state this job is in when they put money over the safety of their employees and the public.

Peppa Cig · 24-06-2014 10:26am

audidiesel wrote: »

I wont pay for my job to train me. It should be a basic requirement that they teach every one of us. There is no private equilivant we could take that they recognise in any case.

What I love about this is that anyone on cpd1 now (which is a lot of members) cannot under ANY circumstances use lights and/or sirens while the vehicle is moving. it doesn't matter if someone is critically wounded, your escorting a woman in labour, a drink driver, or being shot at! there are absolutely no exceptions to this rule. If you break it your held personally liable.

Get used to waiting a few more hours for us to get out to ye if ye call us. Its an absolute joke of a system. But then again what do you expect in this job anymore.

CPD1 and international police force equivalents are standard enough. No member should be allowed to use lights, sirens, exceed speed limit etc on CPD1 nor should they expect to as they dont have the pre requiste training and associated assessment. We need standards. This was long overdue.
The fact that we dont have enough qualified CPD1, CPD2 members is the real issue as there is not enough training resources available. The introduction of CPD itself is a good thing imo.

24-06-2014 3:37pm

Peppa Cig wrote: »

CPD1 and international police force equivalents are standard enough. No member should be allowed to use lights, sirens, exceed speed limit etc on CPD1 nor should they expect to as they dont have the pre requiste training and associated assessment. We need standards. This was long overdue.
The fact that we dont have enough qualified CPD1, CPD2 members is the real issue as there is not enough training resources available. The introduction of CPD itself is a good thing imo.

CBD1 is not a training course, it's an assessment of your ability to drive a car under normal conditions.

Santa Cruz · 24-06-2014 5:20pm

No one should be authorised to use blue lights etc. unless properly trained. There have been far too many Garda deaths arising out of insufficiently trained Garda drivers and inadequate vehicles.

What a lot of people do not realise is that emergency or no emergency a Garda who drives dangerously responding to an emergency call is liable to a court prosecution if involved in an accident. GSOC are called to investigate any accident involving injury where Garda vehicles are involveddd

Little CuChulainn · 24-06-2014 8:26pm

foreign wrote: »

CBD1 is not a training course, it's an assessment of your ability to drive a car under normal conditions.

It's basically a taxi licence. While chiefs permission was not ideal it allowed drivers respond to emergencies when they were needed. The fact that they cannot even pull over a car is ridiculous. This has been approached in the complete wrong order. Training should have been expanded before chiefs was removed. There will be a severe deficit of drivers now. Most units have only two official drivers. If they are out at the same time then that's an area car, likely the only one, effectively grounded.

heffomike54 · 24-06-2014 8:36pm

I see in the article it says that control must be informed by your driving level when logging on, I wonder does this mean control will not dispatch cars with level 1 drivers to urgent calls??? :rolleyes:

Little CuChulainn · 24-06-2014 8:41pm

heffomike54 wrote: »

I see in the article it says that control must be informed by your driving level when logging on, I wonder does this mean control will not dispatch cars with level 1 drivers to urgent calls??? :rolleyes:

They will. And the driver will be expected to break the rules to get there and then be disciplined for it. That's how it works these days. Put you in an impossible position and punish you for getting out of it.

heffomike54 · 24-06-2014 8:44pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

They will. And the driver will be expected to break the rules to get there and then be disciplined for it. That's how it works these days. Put you in an impossible position and punish you for getting out of it.

What a system!:(

D Trent · 24-06-2014 10:08pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It's basically a taxi licence. While chiefs permission was not ideal it allowed drivers respond to emergencies when they were needed. The fact that they cannot even pull over a car is ridiculous. This has been approached in the complete wrong order. Training should have been expanded before chiefs was removed. There will be a severe deficit of drivers now. Most units have only two official drivers. If they are out at the same time then that's an area car, likely the only one, effectively grounded.

But for the official drivers it's a good thing, they will never walk the beat again downtown or in a scummy housing estate in the rain etc

heffomike54 · 24-06-2014 10:13pm

D Trent wrote: »

But for the official drivers it's a good thing, they will never walk the beat again downtown or in a scummy housing estate in the rain etc

I don't think the official drivers do too much walking anyway...:cool:

D Trent · 24-06-2014 10:16pm

heffomike54 wrote: »

I don't think the official drivers do too much walking anyway...:cool:

U callin us fat?

kub · 24-06-2014 10:19pm

Just wondering, would the vast amount of trained drivers be assigned to traffic corp?

Little CuChulainn · 25-06-2014 2:11am

D Trent wrote: »

But for the official drivers it's a good thing, they will never walk the beat again downtown or in a scummy housing estate in the rain etc

We'll see how good it is when leave starts getting refused for them because there is nobody to drive

Zambia · 25-06-2014 2:23am

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

We'll see how good it is when leave starts getting refused for them because there is nobody to drive

I assume they will just make do with a basic driver.

Little CuChulainn · 25-06-2014 11:28am

Zambia wrote: »

I assume they will just make do with a basic driver.

I'll be honest, I'd be reluctant to go out on a beat or in a CPD1 taxi if there is not an official driver on duty nearby. If I get into difficulty I don't want backup stopping at traffic lights while I'm getting my head kicked in. This won't be such an issue in Dublin but in the country it will. The CPD1 driver will have to choose between getting to their colleague in good time or facing disciplinary action. It's a horrible position to put someone in.

Turner · 25-06-2014 4:12pm

Thread merged with similar one from OESR forum

Turner

Capri · 13-07-2014 10:47am

In the SINDO today

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/gardai-ordered-to-stop-at-red-lights-while-chasing-suspects-30427155.html

Gardai ordered to stop at red lights while chasing suspects

Bit like the Japanese police years ago - had to remove shoes when chasing suspects into a house :rolleyes:

tenifan · 13-07-2014 11:08am

As some one whose mother was nearly killed by a couple of guards I'd love to see the end of guards getting their kicks from dangerous, high speed joyrides.

In my mother's case, they said they were responding to a call about a house break-in - a nonsense excuse which even if it was true did not justify the dangerous speed and lives they put at risk. What followed was a cover up, taking statements from gardai who weren't on the scene, hanging around the hospital trying to interview her when she was barely conscious, and discarding witness statements except for one man who, having a history with the Gardai decided to sing to the guards time and backed up their version of events.

The high speed pursuits are even worse. One guard i know send to think it's a medal of honour that the person he was chasing died in the pursuit.. All well and good, i love crimes that punish themselves, except what if the person fleeing crashed into an innocent person travelling in the other direction?

No amount of training courses should give gardai a free pass to recklessly endanger members of the public. I'm all for these restrictions. I'm fed up of seeing gardai joyriding.

3fullback · 13-07-2014 12:56pm

tenifan wrote: »

As some one whose mother was nearly killed by a couple of guards I'd love to see the end of guards getting their kicks from dangerous, high speed joyrides.

In my mother's case, they said they were responding to a call about a house break-in - a nonsense excuse which even if it was true did not justify the dangerous speed and lives they put at risk. What followed was a cover up, taking statements from gardai who weren't on the scene, hanging around the hospital trying to interview her when she was barely conscious, and discarding witness statements except for one man who, having a history with the Gardai decided to sing to the guards time and backed up their version of events.

The high speed pursuits are even worse. One guard i know send to think it's a medal of honour that the person he was chasing died in the pursuit.. All well and good, i love crimes that punish themselves, except what if the person fleeing crashed into an innocent person travelling in the other direction?

No amount of training courses should give gardai a free pass to recklessly endanger members of the public. I'm all for these restrictions. I'm fed up of seeing gardai joyriding.

What about all the lives that have been saved by Gardai arriving rapidly at an incident ?

discus · 13-07-2014 1:16pm

3fullback wrote: »

What about all the lives that have been saved by Gardai arriving rapidly at an incident ?

I'm pretty sure that lad is trolling us.

kub · 13-07-2014 3:05pm

3fullback wrote: »

What about all the lives that have been saved by Gardai arriving rapidly at an incident ?

Or the amount of Garda lives lost attempting similar?

Little CuChulainn · 13-07-2014 3:30pm

tenifan wrote: »

As some one whose mother was nearly killed by a couple of guards I'd love to see the end of guards getting their kicks from dangerous, high speed joyrides.

In my mother's case, they said they were responding to a call about a house break-in - a nonsense excuse which even if it was true did not justify the dangerous speed and lives they put at risk. What followed was a cover up, taking statements from gardai who weren't on the scene, hanging around the hospital trying to interview her when she was barely conscious, and discarding witness statements except for one man who, having a history with the Gardai decided to sing to the guards time and backed up their version of events.

The high speed pursuits are even worse. One guard i know send to think it's a medal of honour that the person he was chasing died in the pursuit.. All well and good, i love crimes that punish themselves, except what if the person fleeing crashed into an innocent person travelling in the other direction?

No amount of training courses should give gardai a free pass to recklessly endanger members of the public. I'm all for these restrictions. I'm fed up of seeing gardai joyriding.

I'm sure if it was your house being broken into while your family was upstairs you would not be telling the Gardaí to stop at every light.

But for your information, Gardaí are not exempt from laws regarding dangerous or careless driving. They apply to them as they do to everyone else. So even though a Garda can go through a red light, if he were to do so in a manner that was dangerous he would be liable for prosecution.

Zambia · 13-07-2014 4:02pm

tenifan wrote: »

In my mother's case, they said they were responding to a call about a house break-in - a nonsense excuse

Responding to an Burglary is not a nonsense excuse, I have a wife an kids if someone is in the house and I am not there. I want the Gardai there very quickly.

tenifan wrote: »

which even if it was true did not justify the dangerous speed and lives they put at risk.

This may be true but thats what we have courts for.

tenifan wrote: »

What followed was a cover up, taking statements from gardai who weren't on the scene,

Huh so your saying a Garda who was most likely at another job or task lied on a statement and said he was a witness to collision he was not at?

tenifan wrote: »

hanging around the hospital trying to interview her when she was barely conscious,

This is not unusual she would be a very important witness.

tenifan wrote: »

and discarding witness statements

If you know whose statements were discarded just go and get another statement from those people?

tenifan wrote: »

except for one man who, having a history with the Gardai decided to sing to the guards time and backed up their version of events.

He submitted a signed statement that if he lied on he can be charged with, he must really love the Garda

I don't know your full story and convincing random people on the internet will not help your case. If your above story is true its easily investigated by a solicitor.

tenifan · 13-07-2014 8:31pm

My last post in this thread..

Zambia wrote: »

Responding to an Burglary is not a nonsense excuse, I have a wife an kids if someone is in the house and I am not there. I want the Gardai there very quickly.

Speaking to another guard, he said it sounded like an absolute bull**** excuse .. that it's unlikely they were responding to a robbery (for various reasons he gave me), but they used that excuse because it was a valid reason for speeding. :rolleyes:

This may be true but thats what we have courts for.

Don't get me started on the courts. They're as unfit for purpose

Huh so your saying a Garda who was most likely at another job or task lied on a statement and said he was a witness to collision he was not at?

Wouldn't be the first time.. but that's not what I said. I said they took statements from guards arriving on the scene.

This is not unusual she would be a very important witness.

They were covering their own back and had we known what was going on, we would have advised against speaking to them. They didn't want to investigate the case, simply to get sound bites to use against her if the case went to court.

If you know whose statements were discarded just go and get another statement from those people?

We did. But not everyone would have known to do this. Some people actually trust the guards

He submitted a signed statement that if he lied on he can be charged with, he must really love the Garda

No, he sang to their tune because he knew they could make trouble for him.

I don't know your full story and convincing random people on the internet will not help your case. If your above story is true its easily investigated by a solicitor.

And you acting as an apologist for a case you know nothing about (other than the facts I've provided you with) is doing nothing to convince people that these restrictions should not apply to gardai.

oh, and it wouldn't be "easily investigated". It would be difficult and costly to investigate.

I'm not trolling. I stumbled across this thread from the front page and didn't like the attitude of the people posting here.

I am not alone in being sick of the sight of gardai speeding through streets with zero regard for pedestrians or other motorists. I'm sure some of this is already done... but all squadcars should record all audio uttered in the car, all video, and gps coordinates to track speed.

Rubberchikken · 13-07-2014 8:35pm

That's wonderful. Now we'll have 'trained' personnel charging around the country acting like they're in a film.
Spare me *sighs*

bravestar · 13-07-2014 10:02pm

Nothing like a visit from the troll brigade...

Zambia · 14-07-2014 12:17am

tenifan wrote: »

My last post in this thread..

Good man. Go no comment it's the safest option.

donvito99 · 14-07-2014 5:25am

tenifan wrote: »

As some one whose mother was nearly killed by a couple of guards I'd love to see the end of guards getting their kicks from dangerous, high speed joyrides.

In my mother's case, they said they were responding to a call about a house break-in - a nonsense excuse which even if it was true did not justify the dangerous speed and lives they put at risk. What followed was a cover up, taking statements from gardai who weren't on the scene, hanging around the hospital trying to interview her when she was barely conscious, and discarding witness statements except for one man who, having a history with the Gardai decided to sing to the guards time and backed up their version of events.

The high speed pursuits are even worse. One guard i know send to think it's a medal of honour that the person he was chasing died in the pursuit.. All well and good, i love crimes that punish themselves, except what if the person fleeing crashed into an innocent person travelling in the other direction?

No amount of training courses should give gardai a free pass to recklessly endanger members of the public. I'm all for these restrictions. I'm fed up of seeing gardai joyriding.

Sure look we may as well get rid of the Guards all together so.

Terrontress · 14-07-2014 10:17pm

Does anyone have information on the number of serving Gardai who have been prosecuted for driving offences while on duty?

It would cease complaints like the above immediately.

I know that there was a court case about a Garda crash in Clonskeagh, and another where an off duty Garda crashed on the Navan Rd while on his way to court. I can't remember the verdicts but at least charges are being brought.

bravestar · 14-07-2014 11:42pm

Terrontress wrote: »

off duty Garda crashed on the Navan Rd while on his way to court. I can't remember the verdicts but at least charges are being brought.

A Garda on their way to court are on duty.

Terrontress · 15-07-2014 8:54am

Well the beneath story is proof that Gardaí prosecute their own

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/senior-traffic-garda-had-no-car-tax-or-nct-cert-207526.html

3fullback · 15-07-2014 10:00am

Terrontress wrote: »

Well the beneath story is proof that Gardaí prosecute their own

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/senior-traffic-garda-had-no-car-tax-or-nct-cert-207526.html

Insp Reidy denied Mr O’Gorman’s suggestion that the case stemmed from difficulties between members of the traffic corps and Garda management at the station over allowances.

Trust me there's always a background story in these instances

Zambia · 15-07-2014 10:43am

That's just sad.

15-07-2014 8:13pm

tenifan wrote: »

As some one whose mother was nearly killed by a couple of guards I'd love to see the end of guards getting their kicks from dangerous, high speed joyrides.

In my mother's case, they said they were responding to a call about a house break-in - a nonsense excuse which even if it was true did not justify the dangerous speed and lives they put at risk. What followed was a cover up, taking statements from gardai who weren't on the scene, hanging around the hospital trying to interview her when she was barely conscious, and discarding witness statements except for one man who, having a history with the Gardai decided to sing to the guards time and backed up their version of events.

The high speed pursuits are even worse. One guard i know send to think it's a medal of honour that the person he was chasing died in the pursuit.. All well and good, i love crimes that punish themselves, except what if the person fleeing crashed into an innocent person travelling in the other direction?

No amount of training courses should give gardai a free pass to recklessly endanger members of the public. I'm all for these restrictions. I'm fed up of seeing gardai joyriding.

When did this happen? Before GSOC were around? Because if not they like nothing better than trying to stitch up Gardaí. You'd like them.

Gardai to be properly trained to take part in high speed pursuits

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