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How would you feel about a cashless society?
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 59098
There's certainly some of that alright, but what we're also seeing here IMHO is the "Nerds*" Versus Non-Nerds viewpoints. People who tend towards linear thinking versus non linear people(Very broadly speaking).I don't think it's self-serving and a case where they feel their jobs are being threatened (although that is the case occasionally) but rather a fear of change and technophobia.
I think that's what we're seeing in this debate as well.
EGFromthetrees wrote:The digital world is meant to supplement the physical world, not replace it.
VGbear wrote:I no longer read newspapers, I get news online.
I no longer send letters, I use email.
I have seriously reduced how much I text message, I use Facebook.
I don't go to travel agents, I book holidays online.
I don't watch much TV, I watch Youtube.
I'm not having this discussion in a pub, I'm doing it on boards.ie
I don't have an Encyclopaedia, I have Google.
Both viewpoints can tend towards the extreme. The nerd viewpoint can have a tendency to miss the human element in the hunt for metrics/solutions, solutions that are often looking for problems. Change for the sake of it, because you can kinda thing, plus like the notion of complete replacement cos it's "neater". The other side as you say can fear change.
We saw this with the idea of the paperless office. Paper consumption went up. The nerds missed this, because they missed the human factor. 1) people tend to prefer reading something physically in the hand, so will print it up anyway and 2)it made it easier to edit stuff, so you could become lazy and print out multiple copies, whereas if you had to physically type a letter you'd be more likely to take your time and 3) people like to create stuff, so they'll print up circulars and in office charts and all that shíte just because they can.
In this debate the human element is being missed. As I said unless the world goes cashless all at once, then people will use other currency in a second economy. People generally don't like to pay tax if they can avoid it. They also tend towards the paranoid more than not, so the idea of being so obviously tracked would go against the grain for many. They also like to feel in control(even if they're not) and a cashless society would feel like a squeeze on that front.
On the security front the simple fact is credit card and electronic money fraud is rising and rising fast. Chip and pin, biometrics whatever will not stop that, merely slow it down for a time. Computing power is cheap and more powerful by the year. Mark my words, there will come a time when we'll all have to change our passwords to much more complex ones just to keep ahead of that. As I pointed out I had 500 quid taken from my CC account last year by some person in New Mexico. They didn't know me, they didn't have my card and certainly didn't have my pin number, so how did they manage that? They had to come up with my (pretty oddball) name, my CC account/number and pin and clone all that. They had to clone all that because they charged the card in a shop. The bank couldn't explain that one to me and since it happened I've heard of two other similar incidences of this from folks I know. Of course the major advantage with the CC was I got my money back, which wouldn't happen with a mugging of burglary. Scale this up. I'd not be so worried about power failures as they would likely be temporary and if they weren't all bets are off anyway. I'd be more concerned about the security issues of large groups of people, even nations. If politically funded hackers got access to such a system(like the Iranian missile system) they could bring down or seriously screw with a nations economy by hitting confidence where it really hurts, the "punt in your pocket".
I look on the "cashless society" a little like I look on that other great techy/nerdy dream and mainstay of scifi movies and such, the videophone. We've been able to do videophones for quite a long time, today damn near every smartphone has the capability, yet how many use it? Skype has made inroads on the videophone idea and it's great to have, but it's nowhere close to overtaking phonecalls and texts. It's clearly "better" than just voice comms or texting and it would seem logical that people would prefer it and it would replace other systems, but generally they don't and it hasn't.
As I said in my first post on the matter "A problem with engineering solutions is too often they neglect or omit the human nature factor."
*I'm not using the term in the pejorative sense. If I was it would be more than a tad ironic.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59098
Eh no it wouldn't.Similarly, it would be just as easy for the government to decide that all of your notes and coins are worth nothing anymore.
Damn near impossible without printing an entirely new currency and if that had no confidence among people they'd PDQ start using another currency. A physical 20 quid note isn't attached to me as a person, my e money/credit is. Doesn't matter who gives you 20 quid it's still 20 quid, a credit card payment is different. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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The nerd viewpoint can have a tendency to miss the human element in the hunt for metrics/solutions, solutions that are often looking for problems. Change for the sake of it, because you can kinda thing, plus like the notion of complete replacement cos it's "neater".
I completely disagree. The only reason I would even want this to happen is so it is easier and safer for the average user. If there wasn't a way of making it faster and easier to pay for things electronically, I wouldn't want it. Honestly, if it was completely possible to go 100% cashless now, I would do it and be happy with that. I wouldn't expect everyone to follow suit, but I would expect over the next few years that more and more people would make the jump.We saw this with the idea of the paperless office. Paper consumption went up....
This sounds like a short term backlash though. The experienced staff who are used to the way it's always been done will carry on as before but the fresh out of college upstart will be more likely to use the new method which will actually be less alien to them. I see this myself, my dad is always printing stuff out from webpages and emails. He's no technophobe by a long way, that's just what he does and nothing I say to him will change it but I don't think many people of my generation will want to pay so much money (printer ink ain't cheap) for a taste they never developed.As I said unless the world goes cashless all at once, then people will use other currency in a second economy.
Fair point, but that assumes most of the world does not go cashless. Don't get me wrong here, I don't expect Uganda to switch to electronic payments soon but in North America, the EU and some Asian countries, cash is already playing second fiddle to electronic payments. I would expect it to get squeezed out more over time, the only problem I could imagine is for tourists but even then I'm sure a solution could be found. People already have to get by without some things they are used to while abroad. Now it might be drinking alcohol, smoking in bars or driving; one day it might be using cash.People generally don't like to pay tax if they can avoid it. They also tend towards the paranoid more than not, so the idea of being so obviously tracked would go against the grain for many. They also like to feel in control(even if they're not) and a cashless society would feel like a squeeze on that front.
Yes, all true. Fear is probably going to be the main factor in preventing cashlessness. I do believe that the fear will dwindle over time though as cash is simply used less and less instead of just vanishing suddenly.On the security front the simple fact is credit card and electronic money fraud is rising and rising fast...As I pointed out I had 500 quid taken from my CC account last year by some person in New Mexico. They didn't know me, they didn't have my card and certainly didn't have my pin number, so how did they manage that?...Of course the major advantage with the CC was I got my money back, which wouldn't happen with a mugging of burglary.
If it really becomes a big problem, it will have to combated, cashless society or not. At the moment, it is cheap enough for the bank to take the fall and pay you what was taken but if it does keep rising as you say, you can be sure they won't just roll over. And as you yourself point out, you did manage to get the money back. While it's in a bank's possession, it's their responsibility so they have to replace the money. If you get mugged, nobody is going to just give you the money back.I'd be more concerned about the security issues of large groups of people, even nations. If politically funded hackers got access to such a system(like the Iranian missile system) they could bring down or seriously screw with a nations economy by hitting confidence where it really hurts, the "punt in your pocket".
You're talking science fiction with the missile system. I would have to believe that there is a lot more security around massive amounts of money (e.g. a nation's cash reserve) than there would be around a simple current account.I look on the "cashless society" a little like I look on that other great techy/nerdy dream and mainstay of scifi movies and such, the videophone...It's clearly "better" than just voice comms or texting and it would seem logical that people would prefer it and it would replace other systems, but generally they don't and it hasn't.
No, that's just not true. It isn't as convenient to use video calling, even on a smartphone. For one thing, the infrastructure still isn't there. A lot of people (myself included) don't have broadband fast enough to give a smooth conversation with video. Not all smartphones support it, not everyone with a smartphone has Skype and not everyone has a smartphone at all. You brought up Facetime in a later post which is not only locked in to Apple devices but requires a Wi-Fi connection meaning you can't use it while out and about so no, it isn't as easy as a text message.
Even excluding all of these current factors there is a major intrinsic problem in that it requires a whole other sense to use. I for one, rarely just sit down and have a chat with someone. I usually use the phone while doing something else. You can't drive while video chatting. Even just walking around you have to hold a phone up in front of you which is both tiring and dangerous. Radio was not replaced by TV either.
I think using quick, electronic payments instead of cash is more analogous to jet aeroplanes taking over propeller aeroplanes, flat TVs replacing CRT TVs or MP3 players instead of tapes. None of these things just appeared and took over. It was always gradual and it came down to people simply choosing to use the one that was superior along with some push by the companies in control. If people wanted they could have kept buying tapes or CRT TVs, but they didn't want to.Eh no it wouldn't. Damn near impossible without printing an entirely new currency and if that had no confidence among people they'd PDQ start using another currency. A physical 20 quid note isn't attached to me as a person, my e money/credit is. Doesn't matter who gives you 20 quid it's still 20 quid, a credit card payment is different.
I should have been clearer. My point wasn't that deciding to replace currency would be easy, my point was that it's near impossible. It's just that the government deciding to have a quick dip into your bank account at their leisure is also basically impossible, and I don't see how getting rid of cash will change that.It could be the case, but often change takes generations. Forgive me if I want something to enable me to see my life as I see fit.
Probation in America only lasted 13 years, hardly "generations" and that was along time ago. Information travels faster now and the government took away Ireland's alcohol you can be sure people would be on the job to have that changed much faster, especially if there was no black market to turn to.If everything is electronic, then the government will have access to your finances should they require them.
How exactly? Please explain.
My own finances are almost entirely electronic. I pay for most things with Laser or credit card. I only use cash for small transactions like buying lunch or a drink. Often I could pay for that with Laser too, I just don't because right now it's too slow and I don't want to hold up the queue. If I could do those few things with a top up card instead, how on earth could the government start accessing my finances?I actually agree with the point earlier about how if everything is electronic, then banks could start screwing us on transaction charges.
I still don't think anyone has explained why, if they could do this in a cashless society, they couldn't just do it now. What's stopping them from charging me for my withdrawals and Laser payments now that would just disappear if we went cashless?I am talking about a far right government who hates muslims as a hypothetical example. You don't see how in this situation muslims could withdraw their money from the bank and hide it in the form of cash?
No I can't. If their assets are frozen, they won't be able to withdraw their money from the bank. Furthermore they would have a hard time spending it since they would clearly be on the run from the law.Well we actually live in a Republic, where in theory every citizen is supposed to have certain inalienable rights. What you are talking about is majoritarianism.
And how is it an impossible hypothetical situation? There is a pretty much exact parallel today with the war on drugs.
Yes, exactly. We live in a republic where everyone has inalienable rights. Alcohol is not going to be banned and it is, frankly, a ridiculous argument to say "we need cash just in case we elect a government who wants to ban alcohol because otherwise we won't be able to buy our black market alcohol".Has email removed all other forms of communication? Nope, it's added to them. Bad example.
It has not removed "all other forms of communication" but it has largely replaced the physical letter (which is the only one it was competing with, you hardly expected it to replace phone calls did you?). It's only going to happen more and more too. Why would anyone pay 50c to send a letter and wait two days for it to arrive when they could send an instant email for free? The only thing stopping it now is people who just prefer physical letters (same as cash) but I can't imagine many people born today will ever develop this love.
Also, how long have you had an email address? Unless you're a long-time tech person, I'd be willing to guess it's less than 15 years. Give it some time yet.And point missed again. Indeed expected response from the "nerdy/techie" mindset. Tends to lay the blame at the pesky user of the tech, rather than any complexity in the tech itself. The "why should you need icons and windows when a command line is better?" notion.
I don't understand. How do you relate his hypothesis that "the people who prefer the old system of hard invoices will inevitably die/retire and be replaced by people who use online invoices" to blaming the user? And how does your comman line vs icon analogy fit? Getting bills emailed to you is no harder for most of us (even non nerdy types) than having it mailed physically.Cash is quite simply safer, more trustworthy and more secure in transactions than credit cards or similar.
In transactions, yes. In carrying it around, no. I don't disagree that fraud is a major issue, I just think it is one that is going to have to be solved whether you go fully cashless or not.Dunno where 3D cinema lives in this debate, but let's be honest 3D is a marketing gimmick(which has had many an incarnation) and most of all makes it harder for some gimp in the local flicks nicking the film with a handicam.
More like not going your way, but how and ever.
He is just pointing out that 3D without glasses would be superior in every way. If it existed and was cheap, there would be no reason to keep going with the glasses method. This is how I (and presumably Gbear too) view going cashless, making my small payments electronically wouldn't have any drawbacks.
For the record, 3D isn't going anywhere. It's hard to buy a TV without 3D these days and as the technology becomes cheaper, more movies will be made with it. In contrast to my push for moving forward on the cashless thing, I'm not keen on this trend, since I recently made the decision to not watch any more films in 3D after getting headaches. Ah well.One other issue with the cashless society is the credit aspect. People spend more when they can't see how much they've spent to the same concrete degree with cash. You run out of cash well you've run out of cash. You don't so much run out of virtual money and it's harder to track.
This is really just a problem of visualising how much you've spent. There's no reason that if you didn't trust yourself, there couldn't be a system to put a cap on how much you can spend. And some people might think that way, but some (like me) just think "oh I've run out of cash, I need to take out more cash".
Just to go on record here, I don't want a cashless society to be forced upon us. I want it to be from choice. I don't think the option to make all payments electronically is too far away and once it gets going, I just believe it will become what most people choose over time.0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59098
It's easier for many transactions yes and it's a very useful additional way to make a transaction, but cash still has it's place for more than a couple of reasons. Numero uno it is still more secure at the transaction point than cashless. It's clearly more secure from identity theft as currency isn't tagged to one person.I completely disagree. The only reason I would even want this to happen is so it is easier and safer for the average user. If there wasn't a way of making it faster and easier to pay for things electronically, I wouldn't want it. Honestly, if it was completely possible to go 100% cashless now, I would do it and be happy with that. I wouldn't expect everyone to follow suit, but I would expect over the next few years that more and more people would make the jump.
I recall someone saying that very thing in the early 90's. No seriously C and yet here we are.This sounds like a short term backlash though. The experienced staff who are used to the way it's always been done will carry on as before but the fresh out of college upstart will be more likely to use the new method which will actually be less alien to them. I see this myself, my dad is always printing stuff out from webpages and emails. He's no technophobe by a long way, that's just what he does and nothing I say to him will change it but I don't think many people of my generation will want to pay so much money (printer ink ain't cheap) for a taste they never developed.
That's one helluva loss compared to the other examples.People already have to get by without some things they are used to while abroad. Now it might be drinking alcohol, smoking in bars or driving; one day it might be using cash.
Possibly, but fear isn't always a bad thing or a symptom of paranoia.Yes, all true. Fear is probably going to be the main factor in preventing cashlessness. I do believe that the fear will dwindle over time though as cash is simply used less and less instead of just vanishing suddenly.
No, but with the year on year rise in identity theft and the financial theft on top of it, it could well go the other way and people see cash as being safer, which at the transaction point it is.If it really becomes a big problem, it will have to combated, cashless society or not. At the moment, it is cheap enough for the bank to take the fall and pay you what was taken but if it does keep rising as you say, you can be sure they won't just roll over. And as you yourself point out, you did manage to get the money back. While it's in a bank's possession, it's their responsibility so they have to replace the money. If you get mugged, nobody is going to just give you the money back.
Science Fiction eh? More and more government agencies are tooling up with hackers. For good reason, it's just like nicking someone's CC, very hard to track and can cause damage at a distance. No science fiction required, it's happening today and when some "amateur" can nick a few quid from me on a cloned card with all it's attendant security in a country that's well up to speed with CC's(USA) then it's more likely than not that government agencies are looking at ways to destabilise another nations financial market. Big business getting hit would have some effect, but hitting the citizens of such a nation would cause much more panic and be more advantageous in military terms.You're talking science fiction with the missile system. I would have to believe that there is a lot more security around massive amounts of money (e.g. a nation's cash reserve) than there would be around a simple current account.
Well actually they were stopped in the EU at least because of green legislation. Plus the later CRT's were arguably better than LCD tech. No problems with ghosting or any of that. MP3's are of lower quality than CD's. People are funny that way.I think using quick, electronic payments instead of cash is more analogous to jet aeroplanes taking over propeller aeroplanes, flat TVs replacing CRT TVs or MP3 players instead of tapes. None of these things just appeared and took over. It was always gradual and it came down to people simply choosing to use the one that was superior along with some push by the companies in control. If people wanted they could have kept buying tapes or CRT TVs, but they didn't want to.
Well with cash you can technically remove banks from your personal equation. Not very safe hiding it under the bedI still don't think anyone has explained why, if they could do this in a cashless society, they couldn't just do it now. What's stopping them from charging me for my withdrawals and Laser payments now that would just disappear if we went cashless? but it can be done. Hell you can be sure Anto the dealer isn't going to BOI with his many thousands in cash.
Yet the amount of post the Royal Mail in the UK handled grew in the last two decades.It has not removed "all other forms of communication" but it has largely replaced the physical letter (which is the only one it was competing with, you hardly expected it to replace phone calls did you?). It's only going to happen more and more too. Why would anyone pay 50c to send a letter and wait two days for it to arrive when they could send an instant email for free?
Early 90's here, but yea I've likely a few years on you. Like I said I have heard many of the same stuff being said over the last 20 years about how this tech or that tech would do this or that and remarkably few predictions were accurate. It was often the wierd outlier stuff that took off. Look at texts. Originally stuck on as a sideline, never really seen as a comms thing in of itself. It can be really hard to predict this stuff.Also, how long have you had an email address? Unless you're a long-time tech person, I'd be willing to guess it's less than 15 years. Give it some time yet.
I've heard that before too.For the record, 3D isn't going anywhere.
Ditto. I think its shíte for the most part and horribly artificial looking.I'm not keen on this trend, since I recently made the decision to not watch any more films in 3D after getting headaches. Ah well.
You'd defo need some visualisation going on. Though banks and CC companies prefer if you don't as it gets you more into debt and so long as that's relatively manageable they prefer you doing that.This is really just a problem of visualising how much you've spent. There's no reason that if you didn't trust yourself, there couldn't be a system to put a cap on how much you can spend. And some people might think that way, but some (like me) just think "oh I've run out of cash, I need to take out more cash".
Interesting times ahead. Shít the way things are going ATM I'm stockpiling effin cowrie shells.
Just to go on record here, I don't want a cashless society to be forced upon us. I want it to be from choice. I don't think the option to make all payments electronically is too far away and once it gets going, I just believe it will become what most people choose over time. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I recall someone saying that very thing in the early 90's. No seriously C and yet here we are.
Yeah but most people who were working in the 90s are still working now, it's hardly going to be gone yet.That's one helluva loss compared to the other examples.
In your opinion, I'm sure I know plenty of people who would rather take an electronic card on arrival in a foreign country for their payments than not be able to drink alcohol.when some "amateur" can nick a few quid from me on a cloned card with all it's attendant security in a country that's well up to speed with CC's(USA)...
I would hardly call someone like that an "amateur". They've still got to be pretty damn skilled to pull something like that off.MP3's are of lower quality than CD's. People are funny that way.
That's why I used tapes as an analogy instead. People (myself included) still use CDs for their higher quality, nobody still uses tapes (okay I'm sure you can pull up an example of a mad friend of a friend who still goes to car boot sales and buys tapes but you know what I mean).
Even with the CDs thing, there is no denying that the MP3's are taking over and I'm worried about how much longer the physical discs will be available for. This just shows that people prefer convenience, even if there are drawbacks, which I believe going cashless gives you.Well with cash you can technically remove banks from your personal equation. Not very safe hiding it under the bed but it can be done.
You can in theory but, for most people, not in practice. You'll have a hard time getting a house or a car this way, or even a job (my last two employers paid directly to bank accounts ONLY, and I was only getting minimum wage).
The point is that they could get away with this right now and people would still have to put up with it. Most of us can't say "well then I just won't use the bank", withdraw the lot and close the account.Yet the amount of post the Royal Mail in the UK handled grew in the last two decades.
Got any stats on that? I know the story certainly isn't the same with our western friends.
Near-Bankrupt US Postal Service Plans Unprecedented Cuts
Why the Postal Service Is Going Out of BusinessLike I said I have heard many of the same stuff being said over the last 20 years about how this tech or that tech would do this or that and remarkably few predictions were accurate.
Want to give some examples?
I know there are plenty of things I was sceptical about that did turn into successes. Smartphones, tablets, Sky+, HD video, 3D TVs. Now I've come to rely on several of them.You'd defo need some visualisation going on. Though banks and CC companies prefer if you don't as it gets you more into debt and so long as that's relatively manageable they prefer you doing that.
Yeah they probably do like that, but at the moment there still isn't really any visualisation from cash. You can see how much you have left, but not how much you've spent or what you've spent it on.
In contrast, I can easily see how much I've spent with my Laser/CC, how much I have left, what I started out with and what it was that I spent my money on all instantly using my phone (or computer). That's a lot more information than cash gives unless you're taking it all down yourself and it makes it a lot easier to budget and make rational spending decisions than when I have a fifty burning a hole in my pocket.0 -
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In short, I think that cash is freedom, and we should never let our government or banks try to take it away from us. What do you think?
Well Ulster Bank have done their best over the last week to introduce the cashless society.Electronic transactions of money like M-Pesa are where things are going.
Just not to RBS/Ulster though.Where I am in Europe I can live cashless. It's been this way for almost a decade and people just choose to either use cash or cashless. It's just the best of both worlds really.
Are you in Greece ?I am not allowed discuss …
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Just read the 1st and last page of this thread but looks like I'm going to buck the trend here. I'd be all in favour of an increase in the use of credit cards, debit cards, online transactions, etc. I've recently got a card from my bank that allows you to swipe for small transactions (less than 15 quid). I don't think many (or any) shops have it setup yet but its only a matter of time.
Cash is great, and will always form part of the payments system. However it is also relatively easy to steal and largely untraceable. The people who would stand to lose the most without cash would be the criminal gangs, armed robbers, counterfeiters, drug dealers, tax cheats, and brown envelope loving politicians.
As well as that, cash is very unhygienic and you can never be too sure of where some scanger has been keeping his 50 euro notes
Of course, with electronic payments, you have a whole other set of problems - cyber criminals, IT systems outages (e.g. Ulster Bank), big brother watching every transaction you make, etc! There is no perfect system I suppose.0 -
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