M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Schadenfreudia · 31-05-2015 7:48pm

Aard wrote: »

It's interesting the level of scrutiny under which we, as a nation, put public transport infrastructure compared to road/car infrastructure.

That's probably because the public transport projects we need are rail or dedicated bus routes and they are all located in cities, thus affecting a vast number of Nimby interests.

(I remember some of the objections to the Green Luas extension through the City centre to Broombridge were from people on the existing Green line not wanting "unsocial elements" from the Northside and Tallaght contaminating the current Green, as the DART was supposed to have done when it first opened!)

Another factor may be that rail schemes seem relatively expensive per kilometre, even compared to motorways - and the debate about light rail/heavy rail, underground, street level and the numerous route permutations gives the chattering classes amazing scope to chatter - resulting in little or no delivery.

monument · 31-05-2015 9:51pm

dubhthach wrote: »

What's minimum width for LUAS for on street running (pylons suspended over whole road carriageway). From looking at the Naas road it's seems to be about 20 feet wide.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.330342,-6.331822,3a,75y,59.21h,63.12t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1siJvfaqyoTyNbOsbY7CVn1g!2e0?hl=en

The Citadis trams can have a width of 2.3 -> 2.6metres, I'm not sure what's used on the LUAS, so you looking at probably a 6 metre corridor.

Do you have a link to your actual google map, it's bit hard to make out anything on the size of that screenshot (zoom to detail).

Google Map link: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z3FJgAJIeL9w.kLmzxrt1IhOY (link also embeded in the text above the map image in the opening post of the Luas for Galway thread).

Yes, Luas uses Citadis trams and about 6 meters is needed.

Dublin's city centre sections on the red line are built to the minimum width. The green line and I think maybe also the outer sections of the red line were built with scope to upgrade to wider metro vehicles (Metro North then ended up just planning for Citadis width vehicles).

hardy_buck · 12-06-2015 11:52am

Considering it has taken almost 25 years to develop any kind of integrated tram system in our capital Dublin( and still not completed!), which is over 10 times the size of Galway, I would put good money that there is no chance of any tram system in Galway..

The best hope for Galway City is a well planned road network that takes as much traffic out of the city as possible á la bypass. This would free up space for busses and cycling.

This bypass will likely be the last major project the city sees for a while I fear, especially considering the m17/18 was granted during the recession.

With all that said, that's not to say I would refuse a Luas however!

Iwannahurl · 12-06-2015 12:03pm

Official thinking in Ireland is slowly changing, 25-30 years behind other parts of Europe.

It makes no sense to continue planning Galway around private car use, when the capital is finally just beginning to realise the unsustainable folly of that approach.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Major_changes_proposed_in_Dublin_City_Transport_Study_Press_Release_10.06.2015.pdf

hardy_buck · 12-06-2015 12:16pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Official thinking in Ireland is slowly changing, 25-30 years behind other parts of Europe.

It makes no sense to continue planning Galway around private car use, when the capital is finally just beginning to realise the unsustainable folly of that approach.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Major_changes_proposed_in_Dublin_City_Transport_Study_Press_Release_10.06.2015.pdf

I don't disagree with you IWH, Dublin in particular is a prime example of what you're talking about. The issue is however there is no political/financial backing to implement the rail based solutions that would be necessary to overcome car transport.
MN and DU are two traumatic examples of that.

12-06-2015 1:55pm

hardy_buck wrote: »

I don't disagree with you IWH, Dublin in particular is a prime example of what you're talking about. The issue is however there is no political/financial backing to implement the rail based solutions that would be necessary to overcome car transport.
MN and DU are two traumatic examples of that.

Plus rail options are extremely limited in many, many ways

SeanW · 12-06-2015 2:06pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Official thinking in Ireland is slowly changing, 25-30 years behind other parts of Europe.

It makes no sense to continue planning Galway around private car use, when the capital is finally just beginning to realise the unsustainable folly of that approach.

How would your "alternative" accommodate people who needed to drive (or their bus) from (for example) Ennis to Connemara or Athlone to Clifden? I put it to you that if you can't answer that, you don't have a solution.

hardy_buck wrote: »

I don't disagree with you IWH, Dublin in particular is a prime example of what you're talking about. The issue is however there is no political/financial backing to implement the rail based solutions that would be necessary to overcome car transport.
MN and DU are two traumatic examples of that.

MN and DU are absolutely necessary because Dublin is a large city that has already accommodated bypassing motor movements by the M50, and has extreme needs for rapid transit that are not being met. Galway is closer in profile to Moate than it is to Dublin and neither of the above apply.

hardy_buck · 12-06-2015 2:41pm

Plus rail options are extremely limited in many, many ways

Not in Dublin's case or London's case or Paris' case or pretty much any prime cities for that matter. Galway clearly isn't one of those however.

Galway is closer in profile to Moate than it is to Dublin and neither of the above apply.

Moate is probably a stretch but yes. I was moreso bemoaning the overall attitude behind Irish transport strategies as opposed to favouring H/L rail over the actual bypass. I think the bypass is one of the, if not the most important infrastructural projects that could happen this city.

Speaking of which has there been any update on progress lately?

monument · 12-06-2015 3:01pm

SeanW wrote: »

How would your "alternative" accommodate people who needed to drive (or their bus) from (for example) Ennis to Connemara or Athlone to Clifden? I put it to you that if you can't answer that, you don't have a solution.

How many people are you talking about? Is the bypass been planned for them or mainly for more local commuters?

hardy_buck · 12-06-2015 3:12pm

How many people are you talking about? Is the bypass been planned for them or mainly for more local commuters?

Would it not be both groups? By removing non city bound traffic from the city, you benefit both local commuters by alleviating pressure from bottlenecked city routes (helping buses, cyclists and motorists) along with people actually looking to bypass the city.

As for how many actually aren't city bound I can't say myself, I can't imagine it's a small figure considering you have Barna, Moycullen, Oughterard one side and the M6/M18 the other.

Aard · 12-06-2015 3:23pm

hardy_buck wrote: »

Would it not be both groups? By removing non city bound traffic from the city, you benefit both local commuters by alleviating pressure from bottlenecked city routes (helping buses, cyclists and motorists) along with people actually looking to bypass the city.

It only really helps buses and cyclists if space is reallocated to bus lanes and cycle lanes. It would appear that most people would agree with this happening should the proposed road be built. But there isn't much (any?) reference to it from officialdom.

dloob · 12-06-2015 3:30pm

hardy_buck wrote: »

Not in Dublin's case or London's case or Paris' case or pretty much any prime cities for that matter. Galway clearly isn't one of those however.

Moate is probably a stretch but yes. I was moreso bemoaning the overall attitude behind Irish transport strategies as opposed to favouring H/L rail over the actual bypass. I think the bypass is one of the, if not the most important infrastructural projects that could happen this city.

Speaking of which has there been any update on progress lately?

Not much to report at the moment.
The detailed route selection report is expected in the next month or so.
It will be on the project website, apparently it will be over 1000 pages long.
http://connachttribune.ie/detailed-bypass-route-selection-report-to-be-published-this-month/

hardy_buck · 12-06-2015 3:33pm

It only really helps buses and cyclists if space is reallocated to bus lanes and cycle lanes. It would appear that most people would agree with this happening should the proposed road be built. But there isn't much (any?) reference to it from officialdom.

Yes, that was what I was trying to imply. I do believe that if designed properly a BP can make a huge difference on city based traffic.

Regarding the official stance on it, it's hard to determine what anyones stance is in the council tbh. However looking at recent junctions they have built, the quincentinial for example, it would seem that they are willing to create the cycle facilities where they can. I wouldn't call it unforseeable that there might be actual segration throughout the city at some stage.

Aard · 12-06-2015 3:49pm

I try to be a realist -- it looks like there will be some form of road going ahead. This really is a one-in-a-million opportunity to reorganise the surface transport network of the city centre and inner suburbs. There will be no "big bang" moment for Galway ever again wrt transport infrastructure. As such, there has to be recognition and support from stakeholders -- that having a car-oriented central street network is ultimately a drag on Galway's economy. I hope the various decisionmakers will be smart enough to realise that this isn't a car/anticar either-or dichotomy -- that there is an opportunity to formalise a highly efficient transport network that will make Galway an attractive place to live and do business in. Currently the mindset from a lot of people is that cars and cars alone create business opportunities and economic efficiencies, but there is evidence that that mindset is changing with the understanding that a mixed-transport offering with high-quality infrastructure for all modes (not just cars) is the best way forward.

hardy_buck · 12-06-2015 4:05pm

Aard wrote: »

I try to be a realist -- it looks like there will be some form of road going ahead. This really is a one-in-a-million opportunity to reorganise the surface transport network of the city centre and inner suburbs. There will be no "big bang" moment for Galway ever again wrt transport infrastructure. As such, there has to be recognition and support from stakeholders -- that having a car-oriented central street network is ultimately a drag on Galway's economy. I hope the various decisionmakers will be smart enough to realise that this isn't a car/anticar either-or dichotomy -- that there is an opportunity to formalise a highly efficient transport network that will make Galway an attractive place to live and do business in. Currently the mindset from a lot of people is that cars and cars alone create business opportunities and economic efficiencies, but there is evidence that that mindset is changing with the understanding that a mixed-transport offering with high-quality infrastructure for all modes (not just cars) is the best way forward.

I agree with you. Galway city realistically will never see this scale of capital expenditure again. If/When such a bypass gets finished it will provide Galway with a perfect opportunity to transform the way the city operates.

monument · 12-06-2015 6:40pm

hardy_buck wrote: »

Would it not be both groups? By removing non city bound traffic from the city, you benefit both local commuters by alleviating pressure from bottlenecked city routes (helping buses, cyclists and motorists) along with people actually looking to bypass the city.

As for how many actually aren't city bound I can't say myself, I can't imagine it's a small figure considering you have Barna, Moycullen, Oughterard one side and the M6/M18 the other.

It is both groups, but a comparably tiny amount longer trips are being used as the reasoning of why a public transport solution can't be used.

Aard wrote: »

I try to be a realist -- it looks like there will be some form of road going ahead. This really is a one-in-a-million opportunity to reorganise the surface transport network of the city centre and inner suburbs. There will be no "big bang" moment for Galway ever again wrt transport infrastructure. As such, there has to be recognition and support from stakeholders -- that having a car-oriented central street network is ultimately a drag on Galway's economy. I hope the various decisionmakers will be smart enough to realise that this isn't a car/anticar either-or dichotomy -- that there is an opportunity to formalise a highly efficient transport network that will make Galway an attractive place to live and do business in. Currently the mindset from a lot of people is that cars and cars alone create business opportunities and economic efficiencies, but there is evidence that that mindset is changing with the understanding that a mixed-transport offering with high-quality infrastructure for all modes (not just cars) is the best way forward.

Being a realist, there's far better change that enough people in Galway will band together for different reasons to will stop the bypass then there is that enough people will band together to make sure that the bypass will be used to change the car-oriented central street in the short to mid-term after the bypass in put in place.

Galway seem to be basket case in that it has moved slower than most if not any other place to provide the very basics such as pedestrian crossings or under/overpasses on busy roads (I'm thinking GMIT across the road to the inbound bus stop, and to/from the Galway Clinic, but I can come up with other examples).

hardy_buck wrote: »

I agree with you. Galway city realistically will never see this scale of capital expenditure again. If/When such a bypass gets finished it will provide Galway with a perfect opportunity to transform the way the city operates.

There's no evidence that such would happen and, to do it right, large amounts of extra funding would be needed.

Schadenfreudia · 13-06-2015 12:04am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Official thinking in Ireland is slowly changing, 25-30 years behind other parts of Europe.

It makes no sense to continue planning Galway around private car use, when the capital is finally just beginning to realise the unsustainable folly of that approach.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Major_changes_proposed_in_Dublin_City_Transport_Study_Press_Release_10.06.2015.pdf

The approach you cite would be totally impossible without the M50.

In terms of the recognition of the need for bypass and ring roads, Ireland certainly is "25-30 years behind other parts of Europe" :rolleyes:

lucernarian · 13-06-2015 1:08am

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

The approach you cite would be totally impossible without the M50.

In terms of the recognition of the need for bypass and ring roads, Ireland certainly is "25-30 years behind other parts of Europe" :rolleyes:

If you took that approach, Ireland is 50 years behind other parts of Europe in its recognition of the need for rail projects and similar.

13-06-2015 1:22am

lucernarian wrote: »

If you took that approach, Ireland is 50 years behind other parts of Europe in its recognition of the need for rail projects and similar.

The real problem is having a distributed population and only a few centres of employment. With the low population density in much of Ireland it is very difficult to plan any really decent public transport system.

The best that can realistically be achieved is for a "park-n-ride" system that has car parks strategically located around the city and frequent bus (or tram if viable) to most of the places of employment & retail.

hardy_buck · 13-06-2015 8:18pm

There's no evidence that such would happen and, to do it right, large amounts of extra funding would be needed.

Are you kidding?
Take into consideration that Irish governments are so cashstrapped that they can't even create a semi decent link between Ireland's 2nd and 3rd largest cities (M20 in case it needs saying) not to mention the 1980's approach to Dublin, the commercial beating heart of our country.
Let me guarantee you, this is the biggest project Galway can hope to see in the 35-40 years unless they strike oil in lough Corrib.

Now that this project is ring-fenced for funding, Galway needs to push on with it, or be left with it's preverbial mickey in it's hand.

My point is build it and allow the city an opportunity to develop its public transport for areas within the bypass.

Schadenfreudia · 14-06-2015 2:29am

lucernarian wrote: »

If you took that approach, Ireland is 50 years behind other parts of Europe in its recognition of the need for rail projects and similar.

Commuter trains - yes. Mainline? Hardly - the country is small and has a very low population density outside of Dublin.

lucernarian · 14-06-2015 9:12am

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Commuter trains - yes. Mainline? Hardly - the country is small and has a very low population density outside of Dublin.

My point is easily verified by the development or lack thereof of DART plans over the last 4 decades. You should have seen that I used the words "rail projects", which hasn't been a feature of mainline rail barring stock renewal, safety improvements and closure of track with few exceptions in recent history.

Deleted User wrote:

The real problem is having a distributed population and only a few centres of employment. With the low population density in much of Ireland it is very difficult to plan any really decent public transport system.

That isn't the real problem for a key part of the Irish Rail network. Dublin suburban and commuter rail. Regarding the point made about Ireland being 25 to 30 years behind the rest of Europe, well Tallaght had been constructed with a connection to mainline rail in mind... But the M50 was built on part of the land set aside for its rail connection, long before a humble light-rail connection to Tallaght was built. Low population density in places like Co. Galway isn't exactly an excuse to provide an extravagant road bypass of Galway either.

I'm still waiting to hear why Galway city deserves this >€500 million investment. There's little national strategic interest or relevance in this project except perhaps, perhaps for stimulating regional economic development with Galway at its core.

kippy · 14-06-2015 9:17am

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

The approach you cite would be totally impossible without the M50.

In terms of the recognition of the need for bypass and ring roads, Ireland certainly is "25-30 years behind other parts of Europe" :rolleyes:

Exactly. People talk about rail infrastructure as if it exists in isolation. Pretty much every big city with a metro/underground etc has at least one major ring road/bypass.
Rail is great but it doesnt solve or come close to solving all the problems.

lucernarian · 14-06-2015 9:23am

kippy wrote: »

Exactly. People talk about rail infrastructure as if it exists in isolation. Pretty much every big city with a metro/underground etc has at least one major ring road/bypass.
Rail is great but it doesnt solve or come close to solving all the problems.

It's ridiculous to claim that we are 25 to 30 years behind Europe for bypasses. We have nearly completed a multi-billion euro bypassing and intercity road construction plan, formulated and progressed since the NRA was founded.

It is indeed true that rail doesn't solve all the problems but neither does blowing €500 million of the government's money on a very small city of 75,000 people.

monument · 14-06-2015 9:49am

hardy_buck wrote: »

Are you kidding?
Take into consideration that Irish governments are so cashstrapped that they can't even create a semi decent link between Ireland's 2nd and 3rd largest cities (M20 in case it needs saying) not to mention the 1980's approach to Dublin, the commercial beating heart of our country.
Let me guarantee you, this is the biggest project Galway can hope to see in the 35-40 years unless they strike oil in lough Corrib.

Now that this project is ring-fenced for funding, Galway needs to push on with it, or be left with it's preverbial mickey in it's hand.

My point is build it and allow the city an opportunity to develop its public transport for areas within the bypass.

Where does it say that there's funding ring-fenced for the bypass?

And why would anybody ring-fence funding for this bypass before pushing on with the M20?

hardy_buck wrote: »

My point is build it and allow the city an opportunity to develop its public transport for areas within the bypass.

As I've already said:

There's no evidence that such would happen and, to do it right, large amounts of extra funding would be needed.

There's loads of examples of cities and towns the Ireland and the UK which have been bypassed and little has changed in terms of walking, cycling and public transport qualty inside the bypassed area.

And that's beside the question of why a city like Galway would be allowed to use national funds to fund a commuter bypass.

kippy · 14-06-2015 10:22am

lucernarian wrote: »

It's ridiculous to claim that we are 25 to 30 years behind Europe for bypasses. We have nearly completed a multi-billion euro bypassing and intercity road construction plan, formulated and progressed since the NRA was founded.

It is indeed true that rail doesn't solve all the problems but neither does blowing €500 million of the government's money on a very small city of 75,000 people.

Im not making that claim by the way (that we are way behind elsewhere)

It's not just a very small city of 75000 people this would benefit, there are also areas all around the city that this would help with and indeed it could assist with tourism in the area.

If you want to just take into consideration the direct city population you can make arguments for major spending on something like the Limerick Tunnel, which I beleive cost almost 600 million euros in a city with a population of less than 60000. And indeed the tax payer is still subsidising this tunnel.
http://www.limerickpost.ie/2014/08/21/taxpayer-gives-e19-5-million-to-limerick-tunnel-operators/

Now I don't claim that this bypass will end all problems but it is needed in some form.

lucernarian · 14-06-2015 10:45am

kippy wrote: »

Im not making that claim by the way (that we are way behind elsewhere)

It's not just a very small city of 75000 people this would benefit, there are also areas all around the city that this would help with and indeed it could assist with tourism in the area.

If you want to just take into consideration the direct city population you can make arguments for major spending on something like the Limerick Tunnel, which I beleive cost almost 600 million euros in a city with a population of less than 60000. And indeed the tax payer is still subsidising this tunnel.
http://www.limerickpost.ie/2014/08/21/taxpayer-gives-e19-5-million-to-limerick-tunnel-operators/

Now I don't claim that this bypass will end all problems but it is needed in some form.

You said "Exactly" when quoting a post that made that claim, along with the idea of giving bus lanes and rail greater investment was incompatible without the building of the M50. The M50 wasn't completed until many or most of the public transport infrastructure projects of Dublin that exist today were completed also.

The Limerick Tunnel has huge differences, namely that it's tolled as a PPP - Galway has no tolling and all payments will come from the taxpayer eventually. It's of significant strategic interest, forming part of the Atlantic Corridor and lying in-between Galway and Cork. It links the N59, M7, M18 and M20/N21 and allows for substantial commercial traffic to avoid the city en route to Foynes for example. Furthermore, the population of Limerick is nearly 100,000 - far more than the 60,000 which appears to be plucked from thin air. (http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/documents/census2011vol1andprofile1/Table,6.pdf)

The comparison is non-existent in my opinion. I think that Galway needs an additional bridge crossing further outside the city but the proposal as planned goes far beyond providing a safer route for HGV and non-city bound traffic or linking the N6 and N59 and N84. After the Tuam motorway is built, there will only be two secondary routes entering Galway, to connect with the end of the N6. (Unless the N17 designation will remain?)

kippy · 14-06-2015 10:55am

lucernarian wrote: »

You said "Exactly" when quoting a post that made that claim, along with the idea of giving bus lanes and rail greater investment was incompatible without the building of the M50. The M50 wasn't completed until many or most of the public transport infrastructure projects of Dublin that exist today were completed also.

The Limerick Tunnel has huge differences, namely that it's tolled as a PPP - Galway has no tolling and all payments will come from the taxpayer eventually. It's of significant strategic interest, forming part of the Atlantic Corridor and lying in-between Galway and Cork. It links the N59, M7, M18 and M20/N21 and allows for substantial commercial traffic to avoid the city en route to Foynes for example. Furthermore, the population of Limerick is nearly 100,000 - far more than the 60,000 which appears to be plucked from thin air. (http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/documents/census2011vol1andprofile1/Table,6.pdf)

The comparison is non-existent in my opinion. I think that Galway needs an additional bridge crossing further outside the city but the proposal as planned goes far beyond providing a safer route for HGV and non-city bound traffic or linking the N6 and N59 and N84. After the Tuam motorway is built, there will only be two secondary routes entering Galway, to connect with the end of the N6. (Unless the N17 designation will remain?)

Fair enough, my post would read that I agreed with the whole of the first post but it was the first line I had intended to refer to. Apologies for the confusion.

The M50 is a key component of the transport infrastructure of the greater Dublin area. If you look at ANY major city or even some smaller ones in Europe, they all have some form of ringroad or relief road.

I pulled the 60K figure from here:
http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/population/populationofeachprovincecountyandcity2011/
Granted it is 4 years our of date. I am unable to open the link you suggested.

Look, I amn't entirely happy with the status of the suggested route or where it will go but the very need for another crossing and a link road further outside town than suggested is, in my opinion, required. Whether or not you want to go with more public transport options or not.

lucernarian · 14-06-2015 11:18am

http://www.boundarycommittee.ie/reports/2013-Report.pdf The Limerick metropolitan area (with the likes of Patrickswell etc) population is over 102,000.

Dublin was able to develop (in a very limited way) projects years before the M50 was complete or even commenced. The basics of the DART system was long in operation and the Luas began construction before much of the M50 was opened.

kippy · 14-06-2015 11:27am

lucernarian wrote: »

http://www.boundarycommittee.ie/reports/2013-Report.pdf The Limerick metropolitan area (with the likes of Patrickswell etc) population is over 102,000.

Dublin was able to develop (in a very limited way) projects years before the M50 was complete or even commenced. The basics of the DART system was long in operation and the Luas began construction before much of the M50 was opened.

With respect, the figure mentioned in that document for the population of Limerick city is the same one I used above.
The figure of 102 K would result if the electoral area were increased. Again the figures are form 2011

Dublin and indeed other cities were able to develop projects before their ringroads were in place. What does this actually tell you?

M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

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