Reasons to be positive in Waterford?

TheQuietFella · 22-03-2017 9:33am

tomwaterford wrote: »

Havnt a clue tbh

But if the figures dont stack up for it to be profitable for an irish builder to do it....cant see how the saudis are going to magic up footfall to make it profitable??

Have this consortium any kind of record of running similar shopping centres anywhere??
Any googling i done hasnt been very informative??

I do mean to be pissing all over everyones parade....investment in waterford is good....but...im wary at best,if something seems too good to be ture....it probably is??

I can understand your scepticism Tom but it's probably more of a reflection
of how little development has been done on such a large scale outside of Dublin to be suddenly presented to Waterford.
We'll be following this very closely!

Road-Hog · 22-03-2017 9:46am

tomwaterford wrote: »

Speaking of athlone.....what ever became of that huge place the Chinese were building there??

I've no doubt they are there at least to make money/profit.....but if the figures didn't stack up for an Irish company to do it....how are the Saudis going to make it pay

Whatll you'll end up with is poorly maintained premises feom lack of profit which in the long term will become known for it

Maybe I'm wrong and it'll all be milk and honey rosey world and they'll make a heap of money/the figures which made it unsustainable for an Irish builder were too cautious???

So deos anyone actually know anything about these Saudis....or are we just to jump blindlyly onto the first bit of good news to happen waterford in years??

Irish companies don't or wouldn't do it because surely the cost of borrowing the money would be prohibitive.....the saudis don't have this issue due to the billions of oil revenue these guys have accumulated over the decades.....which probably means they can get their desired 'return on investment' a lot easier than the typical gombeen irish type developer? Maybe this too simplistic a view....??

Road-Hog · 22-03-2017 9:51am

tomwaterford wrote: »

Speaking of athlone.....what ever became of that huge place the Chinese were building there??

I've no doubt they are there at least to make money/profit.....but if the figures didn't stack up for an Irish company to do it....how are the Saudis going to make it pay

Whatll you'll end up with is poorly maintained premises feom lack of profit which in the long term will become known for it

Maybe I'm wrong and it'll all be milk and honey rosey world and they'll make a heap of money/the figures which made it unsustainable for an Irish builder were too cautious???

So deos anyone actually know anything about these Saudis....or are we just to jump blindlyly onto the first bit of good news to happen waterford in years??

Irish companies don't or wouldn't do it because surely the cost of borrowing the money would be prohibitive.....the saudis don't have this issue due to the billions of oil revenue these guys have accumulated over the decades.....which probably means they can get their desired 'return on investment' a lot easier than the typical gombeen irish type developer? Maybe this too simplistic a view....??

Deiseen · 22-03-2017 10:06am

tomwaterford wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

Have you bothered to look into them?

I have indeed....asides from a coperate Web page. ..there seems little to nothing about them??

But I guess since they have marks and Spencers linked in their homepage and it seems an obsession with some on here to get that in waterford it's all good??

I guess I'll say no more for a bit....just keep my rather healthy skeptism about the mathematical realities to myself??

I will say this. ...with the rumoured Saudi consortium building of amother terminal at Dublin airport....Maybe this is just a way of them safe keeping money in the event of Brexit??

You must not have looked very hard.... or didn't want to...
http://uk.reuters.com/article/bizzi-al-hokar-italy-idUKI6N18T012
http://www.italy24.ilsole24ore.com/art/business-and-economy/2016-06-21/real-estate-saudi-arabia-s-fawaz-group-invests-2-billion-near-milan-171019.php?uuid=ADwqtRg
http://www.alhokair.com - this shows their malls and hotels in Saudi Arabia.
http://www.fawazalhokairfashion.com/about-us/global-operations/ - here's a map of all the stores their involved in.

Deise Vu · 22-03-2017 11:01am

Road-Hog wrote: »

Irish companies don't or wouldn't do it because surely the cost of borrowing the money would be prohibitive.....the saudis don't have this issue due to the billions of oil revenue these guys have accumulated over the decades.....which probably means they can get their desired 'return on investment' a lot easier than the typical gombeen irish type developer? Maybe this too simplistic a view....??

This is it in a nutshell. Irish Banks simply will not finance 'speculative' investments any more (for obvious reasons). I would doubt there are a handful of Irish people or companies who would have the necessary liquidity to contemplate an investment like this and, even then, satisfying the banks as regards security would (and I'm not exaggerating) take longer than the construction.

Surplus cash, on the other hand, costs money these days. And I don't mean opportunity cost, banks will actually charge you for holding large sums of money these days.

Glass half-empty I agree that this seems too good to be true. It would be lifting the City's retail offering from the Vauxhall Conference to the Premier League in one fell swoop without having the audience for it. If I was a betting man I would expect that we will see the Michael Street Centre completed and the North Wharf long-fingered. The two sites are being bought from NAMA at, I'm sure, knock-down prices. Michael Street is 110,000 sq ft at say 200 sq/ft would be €22M. You could expect rents of about €2M on that so if the site was €3-4M they are getting a return of about 8% where they were previously paying a bank to hold their money.

The North Wharf then needs infrastructure investment of around €70M apparently(moving the train station; pedestrian / public transport access from the Clock Tower). That, of course won't happen because we are not Galway or Cork (it would actually be perceived as a threat to Cork so less than zero chance Michéal Martin as Taoiseach will sanction it) so the Saudis will sit on a waterfront site that they bought cheaply that you just could not get in any decent-sized city anywhere and then flip it in better times.

Glass half-full: the Govt reads it own Spatial Report again and this time actually grasps the meaning of it and invests in the necessary infrastructure. The Saudis bring in some super-size Brexiteer banks as anchor office tenants which attracts people who will buy, and can afford, luxury apartments with waterfront settings. They build a conference centre, hotel, re-locate the Waterford Crystal visitor centre and a large shopping mall. Tourists and locals flock, it becomes a must-see shopping destination in the same way as Dundrum and Kildare Village. People can't get over the fact the train station drops you off at the door. The shops, restaurants, the waterfront cafés, the 5 star hotel.............look we can dream for a while anyway, can't we?

Max Powers · 22-03-2017 11:31am

tomwaterford wrote: »

Speaking of athlone.....what ever became of that huge place the Chinese were building there??

I've no doubt they are there at least to make money/profit.....but if the figures didn't stack up for an Irish company to do it....how are the Saudis going to make it pay

Whatll you'll end up with is poorly maintained premises feom lack of profit which in the long term will become known for it

Maybe I'm wrong and it'll all be milk and honey rosey world and they'll make a heap of money/the figures which made it unsustainable for an Irish builder were too cautious???

So deos anyone actually know anything about these Saudis....or are we just to jump blindlyly onto the first bit of good news to happen waterford in years??

There is tons of business info about them on line.
You missed my point, if this was announced for athlone Galway etc, similar would be on here whining why can't Waterford get similar.I'll be happy when hard hats start appearing but silly don't have a clue, didn't bother to even do Google search comments not needed on positive thread.

Johnboy1951 · 22-03-2017 11:41am

Deiseen wrote: »

You must not have looked very hard.... or didn't want to...
http://uk.reuters.com/article/bizzi-al-hokar-italy-idUKI6N18T012
http://www.italy24.ilsole24ore.com/art/business-and-economy/2016-06-21/real-estate-saudi-arabia-s-fawaz-group-invests-2-billion-near-milan-171019.php?uuid=ADwqtRg
http://www.alhokair.com - this shows their malls and hotels in Saudi Arabia.
http://www.fawazalhokairfashion.com/about-us/global-operations/ - here's a map of all the stores their involved in.

I had previously come across one of those links and its content puzzled me a bit

http://www.alhokair.com/

ABOUT
Alhokair group is a name that has been tied the world of hospitality and entertainment for decades. To many, it has become the first name that comes to mind when tourism in Saudi Arabia or the Arabian world are mentioned.

The group was started in 1975 to invest in the sectors of entertainment and hospitality under the leadership of Sheikh Abdulmohsin Alhokair.

Over five decades, the group’s projects expanded to include 70 entertainment centers and 34 hotels spread in Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates.

As it is not yet 2025 this did not make sense ......

Deiseen · 22-03-2017 11:50am

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

You must not have looked very hard.... or didn't want to...
http://uk.reuters.com/article/bizzi-al-hokar-italy-idUKI6N18T012
http://www.italy24.ilsole24ore.com/art/business-and-economy/2016-06-21/real-estate-saudi-arabia-s-fawaz-group-invests-2-billion-near-milan-171019.php?uuid=ADwqtRg
http://www.alhokair.com - this shows their malls and hotels in Saudi Arabia.
http://www.fawazalhokairfashion.com/about-us/global-operations/ - here's a map of all the stores their involved in.

I had previously come across one of those links and its content puzzled me a bit

http://www.alhokair.com/

ABOUT
Alhokair group is a name that has been tied the world of hospitality and entertainment for decades. To many, it has become the first name that comes to mind when tourism in Saudi Arabia or the Arabian world are mentioned.

The group was started in 1975 to invest in the sectors of entertainment and hospitality under the leadership of Sheikh Abdulmohsin Alhokair.

Over five decades, the group’s projects expanded to include 70 entertainment centers and 34 hotels spread in Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates.

As it is not yet 2025 this did not make sense ......

As myself and another poster have said, there is lots and lots of info online.

In terms of decades..
70s 1
80s 2
90s 3
00s 4
10s 5
You are literally scraping the barrel

Wanderer78 · 22-03-2017 11:53am

If this gets the go ahead, I just hope a city square is not done on it, I.e. we dont plough through our historical sites and conceal them in concrete. These developments can incorporate these findings, so everybody can enjoy them

Jamie2k9 · 03-04-2017 1:15pm

The Ard Ri in Waterford City has been sold.

The iconic hotel has been bought by the owner of Waterford Castle Seamus Walsh.

It overlooks the city and has been closed since 2006 when it was sold by the McEniff Group to developers TRM who had planned an extensive re-development of the site.

John Rohan of Sherry Fitzgerald facilitiated the sale. He says the sale has concluded. John Rohan says "Seamus Walsh is delighted with his purchase, he plans to develop the hotel."

Last September Roscommon artist Joe Caslin unveiled an evocative giant new wall drawing on the hotel as part of the Waterford Walls International Street Art festival. The giant seven storey creation aimed to provoke awareness and discussion around mental health issues. It also marked the opening of the new Pieta House centre in the city.

Picture thanks to Peter Grogan Emagine.

http://www.wlrfm.com/news/local/108255-ard-ri-hotel-bought-by-waterford-castle-owner.html

Max Powers · 04-05-2017 3:56pm

Good to see IDA south east manager appointed recently...hopefully this fella will do better than previous manager.Article in Munster express.

Max Powers · 10-05-2017 11:05pm

Finally looks like movement on palliative care building at UHW, saw fencing and other construction stuff there.it's a bit odd that the palliative care unit and a mortuary extension are the projects going ahead at UHW, I'm sure they're badly needed of course but 2 units to do with dying or death...the inappropriate jokes write themselves.

Finnbar01 · 10-05-2017 11:10pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

http://www.wlrfm.com/news/local/108255-ard-ri-hotel-bought-by-waterford-castle-owner.html

Only waiting now for some action group to form with the slogan: 'Save the Awe Dree!'

BTW, is that serial objector Galway man still around?

11-05-2017 4:38am

Samsgirl wrote: »

Would be great if this turned out to be true. I duno, something screams fake news.

Jesus H Christ. I would rather be broke than take money from the Saudis?
Death penalty for being gay!
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2016/03/28/report-saudi-authorities-seek-death-penalty-for-coming-out/

Woman stoned to death over adultery in Saudi!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/woman-stoned-death-adultery-saudi-6912835

16 Random things that get you death penalty in Saudi

Saudi Arabia does not let you practice your religion in their country.
https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/28/practicing-catholicism-in-saudi-arabia

From the evidence gathered above and from the general crimes of humanity from slavery and **** that Saudi has done, the guy can stick his money. 300 million would be nice for Waterford but at what cost? I dont want to be taking their money :mad:

Wanderer78 · 11-05-2017 8:18am

Deleted User wrote:

From the evidence gathered above and from the general crimes of humanity from slavery and **** that Saudi has done, the guy can stick his money. 300 million would be nice for Waterford but at what cost? I dont want to be taking their money

Very little 'clean' wealth on this planet I'm afraid, America's wealth is very questionable, but we have no problem accepting it.

I've always liked Michael Hudsons saying, 'behind every great wealth, there's a great theft'

Max Powers · 11-05-2017 8:30am

Way to keep it positive lads,FFS, I'm surprised no mention of neoliberalism from you wanderer.the vast majority welcome investment to Waterford with massive open and welcoming arms, its a massive positive and truly a once in a lifetime opportunity for the city.if ye want to discuss the ethics of a country like usa, Ireland, Australia, middle east countries, Japan, China,, Israel,UK, ...any country on the planet practically,please do it somewhere else.

Wanderer78 · 11-05-2017 8:35am

Max Powers wrote:

Way to keep it positive lads,FFS, I'm surprised no mention of neoliberalism from you wanderer.the vast majority welcome investment to Waterford with massive open and welcoming arms, its a massive positive and truly a once in a lifetime opportunity for the city.

Just waking up, give us a chance for feck sake!

Deiseen · 11-05-2017 8:51am

Deleted User wrote: »

Samsgirl wrote: »

Would be great if this turned out to be true. I duno, something screams fake news.

Jesus H Christ. I would rather be broke than take money from the Saudis?
Death penalty for being gay!
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2016/03/28/report-saudi-authorities-seek-death-penalty-for-coming-out/

Woman stoned to death over adultery in Saudi!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/woman-stoned-death-adultery-saudi-6912835

16 Random things that get you death penalty in Saudi

Saudi Arabia does not let you practice your religion in their country.
https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/28/practicing-catholicism-in-saudi-arabia

From the evidence gathered above and from the general crimes of humanity from slavery and **** that Saudi has done, the guy can stick his money. 300 million would be nice for Waterford but at what cost? I dont want to be taking their money :mad:

1. Al Hokair are a private company so while it is Saudi Arabian, you can't blame it for the actions of it's government
2.If we don't take this investment, somebody else definitely will.
3. Taking it or not taking it will have absolutely no effect on the behavior of the Saudi Arabian government, that is up to our government and the governments of the world to deal with, rejecting investment due to practices in their country would be absolutely insane.
4. The USA and UK are no saints either. A bomb is a bomb whether it is exploded by the UK, USA, Saudi Arabia or ISIS. Coincidentally, the bombs being dropped by the Saudis in Yemen are made by the UK and USA. That's a fact, so going on those grounds, maybe we should reject investment from the USA and UK too?
5. Can you please explain to me what you think the "cost" will be? Do you think we will have to bow down to the Saudi Arabian overlords, convert to Islam and adopt all their policies. If so, then I can tell you now that is delusional and won't happen. If that's what you think will happen then please just keep it to yourself and don't try to spread your delusions to other people.

This will transform the city. Like any massive investment there will be downsides but assuming this is done correctly (which I hope it will be) then the positives will out-weigh the negatives 1000/1.

Deiseen · 11-05-2017 8:53am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Max Powers wrote:

Way to keep it positive lads,FFS, I'm surprised no mention of neoliberalism from you wanderer.the vast majority welcome investment to Waterford with massive open and welcoming arms, its a massive positive and truly a once in a lifetime opportunity for the city.

Just waking up, give us a chance for feck sake!

Wanderer, isn't there another board where your comments are more relevant? I find your posts irrelevant to the extreme on these Waterford threads..
I agree with a lot of what you say and it's OK to come in once in a while with the bigger picture but a lot of the time people just wanna talk about how it affects Waterford, not the Geopolitical Spectrum of the Universe

Wanderer78 · 11-05-2017 9:03am

Deiseen wrote:

Wanderer, isn't there another board where your comments are more relevant? I find your posts irrelevant to the extreme on these Waterford threads.. I agree with a lot of what you say and it's OK to come in once in a while with the bigger picture but a lot of the time people just wanna talk about how it affects Waterford, not the Geopolitical Spectrum of the Universe

Ah sure why not, it's a chatty chat forum after all! The universe you say, always had an interest in complexity theory, surely we can include it here?

Johnboy1951 · 11-05-2017 9:31am

Max Powers wrote: »

Way to keep it positive lads,FFS, I'm surprised no mention of neoliberalism from you wanderer.the vast majority welcome investment to Waterford with massive open and welcoming arms, its a massive positive and truly a once in a lifetime opportunity for the city.if ye want to discuss the ethics of a country like usa, Ireland, Australia, middle east countries, Japan, China,, Israel,UK, ...any country on the planet practically,please do it somewhere else.

Whatever about the political aspects of things ..... is there not some little reason to consider the origin of the funding?

Would it be OK to knowingly accept investment from a large criminal organisation?

I'm just wondering where the bottom line is ........ IF there is one.

.. and yes I consider the morality of the situation relevant to the acceptance of funding.

BBM77 · 11-05-2017 9:46am

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus H Christ. I would rather be broke than take money from the Saudis?
Death penalty for being gay!
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2016/03/28/report-saudi-authorities-seek-death-penalty-for-coming-out/

Woman stoned to death over adultery in Saudi!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/woman-stoned-death-adultery-saudi-6912835

16 Random things that get you death penalty in Saudi

Saudi Arabia does not let you practice your religion in their country.
https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/28/practicing-catholicism-in-saudi-arabia

From the evidence gathered above and from the general crimes of humanity from slavery and **** that Saudi has done, the guy can stick his money. 300 million would be nice for Waterford but at what cost? I dont want to be taking their money :mad:

Women don’t have the right to abortion in Ireland, not going to get into a debate about abortion but the fact is Ireland does not give women the abortion rights most western countries do. Ireland’s public health service is so bad it is virtually a lottery if you will get the treatment you need in time. The treatment you get is prejudicial to what you can afford and the health services in your area is prejudicial to weather there is a minister from your area or not.

We don’t stone women to death or have the death penalty but we still don’t have a great moral high ground to be looking down from in this country in terms of how we treat people.

Agree with others above this thread is about being positive. Just saying some people need to take the rose-tinted glasses and blinkers of.

Max Powers · 11-05-2017 9:49am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Ah sure why not, it's a chatty chat forum after all! The universe you say, always had an interest in complexity theory, surely we can include it here?

It's irrelevant that's why...it messes up the whole conversation, its the reason we have separate threads/boards, maybe it's a product of neoliberlism ;-) but most people post positive things in positive forum, blues news in blues thread, discussions on world ethics in an ethics thread etc
+ see deiseens posts above.light of truth, you may think you're eyes have been opened and you can teach the rest of us your new found enlightenment, truth is, we all know and have our eyes wide open, we're more worried about our own and our families and our cities future, putting food on table etc..not some silly idea like Waterford/Ireland is going to take a stand against every ethical case out there.

Wanderer78 · 11-05-2017 9:53am

Max Powers wrote: »

It's irrelevant that's why...it messes up the whole conversation, its the reason we have separate threads/boards, maybe it's a product of neoliberlism ;-) but most people post positive things in positive forum, blues news in blues thread, discussions on world ethics in an ethics thread etc

fair point but life isnt straightforward, we have this tendency to box things, to categorize them, when the truth is, theyre actually quiet complex and multi dimensional. i actually reckon this one could be the fault of those fecken lizard people:D

Road-Hog · 11-05-2017 2:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus H Christ. I would rather be broke than take money from the Saudis?
Death penalty for being gay!
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2016/03/28/report-saudi-authorities-seek-death-penalty-for-coming-out/

Woman stoned to death over adultery in Saudi!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/woman-stoned-death-adultery-saudi-6912835

16 Random things that get you death penalty in Saudi

Saudi Arabia does not let you practice your religion in their country.
https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/28/practicing-catholicism-in-saudi-arabia

From the evidence gathered above and from the general crimes of humanity from slavery and **** that Saudi has done, the guy can stick his money. 300 million would be nice for Waterford but at what cost? I dont want to be taking their money :mad:

So when you pull up at a petrol station to fill up do you drive away if the crude oil from which the 'petrol' is derived is of Saudi origin?

What about all the other petroleum derived products all around us......do you carry out similar checks to ensure your money is not going towards any Saudi related company/individual.

You would quickly end up living in a cave and eating nothing but wild berries and nuts if you adopted this approach.

Deiseen · 11-05-2017 3:47pm

Road-Hog wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus H Christ. I would rather be broke than take money from the Saudis?
Death penalty for being gay!
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2016/03/28/report-saudi-authorities-seek-death-penalty-for-coming-out/

Woman stoned to death over adultery in Saudi!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/woman-stoned-death-adultery-saudi-6912835

16 Random things that get you death penalty in Saudi

Saudi Arabia does not let you practice your religion in their country.
https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/28/practicing-catholicism-in-saudi-arabia

From the evidence gathered above and from the general crimes of humanity from slavery and **** that Saudi has done, the guy can stick his money. 300 million would be nice for Waterford but at what cost? I dont want to be taking their money :mad:

So when you pull up at a petrol station to fill up do you drive away if the crude oil from which the 'petrol' is derived is of Saudi origin?

What about all the other petroleum derived products all around us......do you carry out similar checks to ensure your money is not going towards any Saudi related company/individual.

You would quickly end up living in a cave and eating nothing but wild berries and nuts if you adopted this approach.

Spot On.
Not to mention the US and the UKs direct involvement in helping the Saudis bomb Yemen out of existence. Sure thats grand as long as it's a Western country involved.

goochy · 11-05-2017 4:26pm

new jaguar / Land rover dealership on Cork road almost finished !

Nite Klub · 11-05-2017 4:37pm

That seems like a nice mixed use scheme. Yes the Saudi lads will profit from it but the people of Waterford will profit more. It doesn't matter where the money comes from, its what its doing is what counts and its doing some good for Waterford.

Johnboy1951 · 11-05-2017 4:50pm

Nite Klub wrote: »

That seems like a nice mixed use scheme. Yes the Saudi lads will profit from it but the people of Waterford will profit more. It doesn't matter where the money comes from, its what its doing is what counts and its doing some good for Waterford.

No?
Stolen wouldn't matter?
The proceeds of blood diamonds wouldn't matter?

There are quite a lot of people who would disagree with you.

If you really did not mean what you posted the maybe edit it

Nite Klub · 11-05-2017 5:39pm

I mean it Johnboy. Where it's come from, in this instance, is irrelevant to me. Whats it's used for in the present and future is important. As far as I'm aware the Saudi lads made their money from property not blood diamonds. To attach the wrongs of a state to all individuals within the state is a bit strange don't you think?

Would people feel differently if they were using the money to build a specialist hospital for children?

Waterford people will benefit greatly from this development. Full steam ahead I say.

As for people disagreeing with me sure it'd be a boring place if we all thought the same.

Reasons to be positive in Waterford?

Comments