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Should Christianity/Islam be classed as hate speech?

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Comments

  • #52
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Well, yes. And I think that what obplayer is doing is attempting to find out whether the belief that she is is prevalent among religious believers. Or to suggest that, logically, religious believers ought to believe this and may be embarrassed to have to justify not believing it. Or both.

    I am attempting to find out how prevalent this belief is, that it exists among religious people is unquestionable but how common I don't know.


  • #53
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    obplayer wrote: »
    I am attempting to find out how prevalent this belief is
    Why?


  • #54
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Mellor wrote: »
    If course you don't any people forcing their beliefs on you.

    They've largely given up on that with adults, but still do it in 96% of primary schools here.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #55
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Absolam wrote: »
    Why?

    Why not?


  • #56
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    obplayer wrote: »
    I am attempting to find out how prevalent this belief is, that it exists among religious people is unquestionable but how common I don't know.

    Also I would like to re-iterate my original point, inflicting this kind of terror on children is vile and unforgiveable.


  • #57
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    lazygal wrote: »
    Why not?
    Well, because it doesn't seem to make any difference to the op, and because any monotheists posting on an Atheism & Agnosticism can hardly be considered a representative sample of monotheists, so asking the question here would be unlikely to provide a credible answer, whereas looking up say the 5 or 6 largest monothiest religions practicing baptism and professing a belief in hells positions on the matter would most likely provide a more immediate, accurate and comprehensive answer.
    Or in short, it would seem to be a waste of time compared to the more obvious method of obtaining the information.
    obplayer wrote: »
    Also I would like to re-iterate my original point, inflicting this kind of terror on children is vile and unforgiveable.
    I think inflicting any kind of terror on children could be considered vile and unforgivable. But then again, insulating them entirely from the concept that their actions have consequences for which they are responsible could be considered vile and unforgivable.
    Actually, there are tons of things people could do to children that could be considered vile and unforgivable. Thankfully, most people don't do them.


  • #58
    padohaodha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭padohaodha


    Atheism is so dull.cheer up folks.i dont know if there's a god or not but none of ye or the religious will ever prove the other wrong.well...maybe in the next life hee hee


  • #59
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Oh, and since you ask . . .


    Most Christian traditions do find room for a concept of hell, though there are exceptions. (The JWs, from memory, see extinction, not hell, as the destiny of those who don’t make the grade, and there would be others.) But it’s certainly not the case that most Christian traditions teach that non-Christians or atheists will all go to hell. The Catholic church, in particular, which is the dominant Christian tradition in Ireland, explicitly does not teach this, and neither do the Anglicans. That’s not to say that there might not be individual Catholics, Anglicans etc who would assert this, but it’s not mainstream.

    I was raised catholic, surrounded by Catholics, with priests and nuns in my family and the Catholic church does indeed say if you don't believe in Jesus you will go to Hell. While not as bad as protestants, which primarily put works as largely optional over faith, faith in jesus and his rules are key still in going to heaven. This follows on from baptism, where original sin is supposed to be washed away or you will NOT go to heaven. Limbo was also an issue here for newborns that died before baptism. If newborns could not make it to heaven, what chance was there for anyone else.

    Islam may have many varients, but Hell is prominent in that too. Thanks to the contradictory verses, there is a predestination and also supposedly free choice at the same time. Yes, Allah may show mercy but the quran calls all non-believers (non-muslims) the vilest beasts in creation. Practically every Surah has threats of torture in it for non believers and even christians are called wishful thinkers if they think they are saved.

    The only 'possible' mercy Allah might show non-muslims are those that submitted to Islam and they HAVE to be children of the book. Any resistance or independance of thought is haram.


  • #60
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    padohaodha wrote: »
    Atheism is so dull.cheer up folks.i dont know if there's a god or not but none of ye or the religious will ever prove the other wrong.well...maybe in the next life hee hee

    While deism cannot be disproven, theism in regard to the abrahamic faiths have been disproven in multiple ways. They made historical and scientific claims to support their god that are wrong. If they are wrong, their god is disproven.


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  • #61
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    My 2 cents on the OP is the following:
    The religions are not hate speech as they consist of more than JUST the bad parts.
    Anyone who spreads any aspect of the bad parts, including concepts of Sin and Hell, sincerely believing they are true, are not necessarily hateful, just incredibly gullible and credulous.
    However I disagree with some defences, just because I don't believe their lies does not make it any less hateful. Spreading it in society including to our children, as Truth with a capital T is hateful if the person spreading it believes it and is content by it. Is it hate speech however. It depends on the motives involved.
    There are leaders and apologetics that DO commit hate speech by using scriptures to cause hostility towards other people.
    Comparing it with childish beliefs like threats of santa, is inaccurate but terrifying a child with threats, even fictional threats, is still hateful.
    It all comes down to intent of the person expressing it.


  • #62
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    My 2 cents on the OP is the following:
    The religions are not hate speech as they consist of more than JUST the bad parts.
    Anyone who spreads any aspect of the bad parts, including concepts of Sin and Hell, sincerely believing they are true, are not necessarily hateful, just incredibly gullible and credulous.
    However I disagree with some defences, just because I don't believe their lies does not make it any less hateful. Spreading it in society including to our children, as Truth with a capital T is hateful if the person spreading it believes it and is content by it. Is it hate speech however. It depends on the motives involved.
    There are leaders and apologetics that DO commit hate speech by using scriptures to cause hostility towards other people.
    Comparing it with childish beliefs like threats of santa, is inaccurate but terrifying a child with threats, even fictional threats, is still hateful.
    It all comes down to intent of the person expressing it.

    Thanks for your comment. If I could, I would alter the title of this thread. Unfortunately, I can't. I tried doing that by editing my first post here, but it didn't alter the title in the list of threads.


  • #63
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    If I could, I would alter the title of this thread. Unfortunately, I can't. I tried doing that by editing my first post here, but it didn't alter the title in the list of threads.

    If you supplicate the almighty Mods they may grant your request.

    Peregrinus wrote: »
    But it’s certainly not the case that most Christian traditions teach that non-Christians or atheists will all go to hell. The Catholic church, in particular, which is the dominant Christian tradition in Ireland, explicitly does not teach this, and neither do the Anglicans.

    That's certainly not what I was taught in (catholic) school.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #64
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    That's certainly not what I was taught in (catholic) school.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_Hell#Roman_Catholicism
    At different points throughout history, the RCC has changed its stance on the topic of hell. After all, that link mentions Pius X in 1908 who used the phrase "in dreadful torments" in regards to hell. This was after the idea of papal infallibility was introduced (I don't know if that specific catechism was ever declared infallible, but I don't really care, since I've heard of plenty of examples where a pope says something he says is infallible, only to be shown later he's wrong and the RCC bishops and cardinals go to great effort to say he wasn't really speaking ex cathedra there).
    Basically, what pisses me off about the RCC in particular on this subject is that they claim to have the inside link to the one true perfect god who knows everything. Therefore, logically, what they teach should always be perfect and never change. Well guess what? It does.


  • #65
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    Basically, what pisses me off about the RCC in particular on this subject is that they claim to have the inside link to the one true perfect god who knows everything. Therefore, logically, what they teach should always be perfect and never change. Well guess what? It does.

    Well to be fair here, I am not sure that is correct. While a 'perfect' god should never promote obviously immoral behaviour like slavery, I don't necessarily agree that every command has to be eternal. The human species evolves and changes, and with those circumstances, morality needs to be reviewed in order to keep it moral. A certain fine tuning would be, over generations, not unreasonable. Absolute commands are extremely dangerous and usually a sign of immorality as it can lack empathy to the circumstances involved.
    Even if a god was all knowing, his knowledge would have to incorporate the state of the development of the people he is mandating it too as well.
    Otherwise it may not be feasible for the people to actually follow the commands at that time.


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