And it begins..................

Kiwi in IE · 07-09-2013 10:21pm #1

Little Kiwi has started Junior Infants at the local National School.

He has been there only five days and they have not started proper lessons yet, however his class has been taught to 'bless' themselves already.

I had not asked that he be excluded from the religion classes as I don't want him sat alone somewhere.

Yesterday the 'Alive O' book came home. At the bottom of each lesson there is a task for parents to do with their children. Parents are asked to pray and go to the church with their children and one lesson even requests that the parent teach their child to 'genuflect'.

Now for some reason this 'genuflecting' business REALLY annoyed me! Firstly the assumption that I know how to 'genuflect' myself, or that I even know what 'genuflecting' is, and secondly, my child WILL NOT bower and scrape in a subservient manner before anyone or anything, least of all an imaginary sky fairy.

Now the dilemma is do I have him sat out of religion class? I have already made them aware that we are no religion, but I phoned the principal after the 'blessing' demonstration in my kitchen and after reading that book, to remind him that we are not in a Catholic school by choice and that none of it will be backed up at home.

For those of you unlucky enough to be in our position with no ET school within reasonable distance, how do you manage religion classes? Do you recommend opting out or just have them sit in on it and counteract at home?

As there are so few options for families of other or no religion, why is religion class not always last before home time so parents can just pick their children up early. This should be mandatory in all schools since the religion situation is so ridiculous.

robindch · 07-09-2013 11:22pm

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

[...] I phoned the principal after the 'blessing' demonstration in my kitchen and after reading that book, to remind him that we are not in a Catholic school by choice and that none of it will be backed up at home.

I'd have gone somewhat stronger than that and formally requested that your kid be excluded from that. It's awful to have to do this, but it's equally hateful to be put in a situation where you have to. It's hard to know which one is worse -- involuntary religious indoctrination or social exclusion. Depends on your child, I suppose

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

As there are so few options for families of other or no religion, why is religion class not always last before home time so parents can just pick their children up early.

Is it too cynical to suggest that it's organized this way to make it more difficult? It's worth suggesting a change in time to the headmaster all the same and see how it goes down.

You could also try producing a copy bring in a transcript of section 44.2.4 of the Irish Constitution:

Irish Constitution wrote:

2.4°: Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

Alternatively, you could contact the good folks in Atheist Ireland -- they have experience of dealing with this kind of thing and will be able to advise you on your options. Let me know if you need contact details and I'll pass them on.

Geomy · 07-09-2013 11:40pm

My kid went through all that in school. ...

Does he talk about religion ?

No

Does he want to or feel like he needs to go to mass ?

No

Is he indoctrinated ?

No

I think times and attitudes have changed, no matter what your kid won't get indoctrinated.

You're not a religious family, you don't go to mass.

Keep it simple, try not to confuse the kid, at 5 its as simple as saying, "kid some people believe in God more people don't"

You tell a boy at a young age some men like men, like men like women...

The kid will more than likely think about it for a few seconds and say ok and keep on playing the x box or watching tv, playing etc

Good luck with it...

mohawk · 08-09-2013 12:05am

Its one thing to have him sitting in the class, but I would not be happy with him bringing home Alive-o.
On one hand you want the school to know you aren't a religious family and that you won't be taking part in certain things such as religion homework and communions etc and on the other you don't want to be p***ing off the principal this early.
There are certain things in school that are religious that your son might want to be part of such as a Christmas play. It won't be possible to get away from it totally, but you can try....

Brian Shanahan · 08-09-2013 12:05am

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Yesterday the 'Alive O' book came home. At the bottom of each lesson there is a task for parents to do with their children. Parents are asked to pray and go to the church with their children and one lesson even requests that the parent teach their child to 'genuflect'.

I've seen the type of book (published by Veritas), one of my cousin's. How in this day and age, can any country not called Saudi Arabia call this kind of blatant propoganda educational escapes me?

Regarding the rest of your dilemma, the religious indoctrination bits, if it were me I'd either follow Robin's advice (it's top notch), or give your son some really tricky questions (there are at least a few appropriate to 4-5 year olds) about religion which will cause the teacher trouble answering them.

mohawk · 08-09-2013 12:11am

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Regarding the rest of your dilemma, the religious indoctrination bits, if it were me I'd either follow Robin's advice (it's top notch), or give your son some really tricky questions (there are at least a few appropriate to 4-5 year olds) about religion which will cause the teacher trouble answering them.

Its been my experience that some teachers do not respond kindly to this. I got lines on more then one occasion for being "cheeky" :rolleyes: (I was 7 at the time though not 4/5).

Geomy · 08-09-2013 12:12am

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I've seen the type of book (published by Veritas), one of my cousin's. How in this day and age, can any country not called Saudi Arabia call this kind of blatant propoganda educational escapes me?

Regarding the rest of your dilemma, the religious indoctrination bits, if it were me I'd either follow Robin's advice (it's top notch), or give your son some really tricky questions (there are at least a few appropriate to 4-5 year olds) about religion which will cause the teacher trouble answering them.

I think it's a bad idea to set the kid up for a face off with the teacher, I can see where you're coming from but the kid is far too young for that.

At 12 + maybe but 5 is far too young.

Maybe it's better for the adult's to sort it out with the teacher and principal, getting the kid to be saucy with the teacher isn't good parenting.

Brian Shanahan · 08-09-2013 12:33am

Geomy wrote: »

I think it's a bad idea to set the kid up for a face off with the teacher, I can see where you're coming from but the kid is far too young for that.

At 12 + maybe but 5 is far too young.

Maybe it's better for the adult's to sort it out with the teacher and principal, getting the kid to be saucy with the teacher isn't good parenting.

My preference is to get kids thinking early, it sets them up later on in life.

And to be honest if "Alive-O" is being used, the teacher will be putting through the religious stuff as accepted fact, i.e. indoctrinating the children, so therefore it needs combatting asap. And the best way to do that is show the kid situations where the religious indoctrination is either plain wrong, contradictory or based on absolutely no evidence, and giving him the confidence to state this. Get him prodding buttock early is my motto.

Sulla Felix · 08-09-2013 12:37am

Question him about it, and it'll get him in the habit of questioning it too.
Why do you have to genuflect I wonder, wouldn't a bow be just as good? etc

Geomy · 08-09-2013 12:44am

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

My preference is to get kids thinking early, it sets them up later on in life.

And to be honest if "Alive-O" is being used, the teacher will be putting through the religious stuff as accepted fact, i.e. indoctrinating the children, so therefore it needs combatting asap. And the best way to do that is show the kid situations where the religious indoctrination is either plain wrong, contradictory or based on absolutely no evidence, and giving him the confidence to state this. Get him prodding buttock early is my motto.

Ok I can see where you're coming from, if it works for you and your kid's that's cool.

Turtwig · 08-09-2013 12:52am

OP,

Perhaps try to get little Kiwi to see it as a role playing imagination game? He's playing the role of a servant of the Catholic Overlord. Nothing's real, it's just a game like when he plays make believe himself and he should do his best to perform in it. If you can get this idea in his head then you'll actually be inoculating him from indoctrination. It's very difficult to indoctrinate a child who thinks the ceremonies they're taking part in are imaginary games that he just has to play along with.

Alive-0 program is awful. Truly awful.

Pawwed Rig · 08-09-2013 1:02am

It is a significant portion of the educational life of the child being taken up by this. Are there other parents in the school with similar concerns? If so maybe you could organise German lessons or something similar during the religious ed portion of the school day?

Kiwi in IE · 08-09-2013 7:29am

Thanks for your advice guys.

Jernal I think the make believe game is fantastic actually. Exactly the sort of thing that would suit my kid.

I am quite worried about the whole thing. I don't want to be constantly at loggerheads with the school either, for fear it might negatively affect my son.

UDP · 08-09-2013 7:45am

OP, firstly do not set the child up against the teacher with awkward questions. The teacher does not have a choice as to whether to teach this crap or not - it is stupidly on the curriculum as set out by catholic schools. I know. My sister is a primary school teacher in a catholic school and atheist - she has no choice but to spout the crap. She would not have the answers to awkward questions because there are no answers. All you will do is make her life more difficult and god forbid little kiwi was to ask those questions when the local priest was in putting the teacher in an awkward position. If my sister was to leave the catholic school system and manage to get working for an ET school it would mean no more access to the panel for mobility so she stays in the catholic system. It's a bs situation for teachers.

Secondly, make up your mind. Do you want you child participating in religious teaching indoctrination or not. No point letting the principal, teacher etc know you are not a religious family but not request that little Kiwi be excluded. The curriculum is indoctrination - not learning the religions of the world. It sounds to me that you are giving mixed signals to the school/not telling them exactly what you want.

Why don't you let the school know you don't want your child to participate in Religion then get some age appropriate books etc that teach him about the religions of the world yourself as he grows up so that he will at least have an idea as to what is going on. It will be too frustrating to be dealing with this crap for the next few years if you don't sort it out now.

Kiwi in IE · 08-09-2013 9:00am

I have been told that the teaching of religion is integrated through the school day. Even if I have him sit out when they are doing the 'lessons' from the 'Alive O' book the indoctrination clearly will be impossible to avoid. I hate the idea of him having to be separated from his class numerous times a week. He is only a little boy who is developing a sense of self esteem and belonging within his group of friends.

I am wondering if I should have just decided to spend 2 hours a day driving so he could go to the closest ET. The main decider not to was that he'd be going to school so far outside his community. As well as the driving fitting in with our work schedules. I would most likely have had to give up work.

UDP · 08-09-2013 9:05am

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have been told that the teaching of religion is integrated through the school day. Even if I have him sit out when they are doing the 'lessons' from the 'Alive O' book the indoctrination clearly will be impossible to avoid. I hate the idea of him having to be separated from his class numerous times a week. He is only a little boy who is developing a sense of self esteem and belonging within his group of friends.

I am wondering if I should have just decided to spend 2 hours a day driving so he could go to the closest ET. The main decider not to was that he'd be going to school so far outside his community. As well as the driving fitting in with our work schedules. I would most likely have had to give up work.

There were people on here before that said they were separated because their parents were members of a non-catholic religion and they said the separation didn't bother them at all.

There's only two ways this can go - you either exclude him from the religious mumbo jumbo or put up with it. I couldn't do the second but that's your call. You can't give out to the school if you don't opt out. If they continue to indoctrinate after opting out then you have a right to fight. It doesn't matter if the indoctrination is mixed up in the school day - they have no right to then include your child. To counter act any indoctrination that seeps through make sure to teach your child about all the religions etc. If you don't opt out then its unfair on the school for you to ring up like you did.

Kiwi in IE · 08-09-2013 9:14am

UDP wrote: »

There were people on here before that said they were separated because their parents were members of a non-catholic religion and they said the separation didn't bother them at all.

There's only two ways this can go - you either exclude him from the religious mumbo jumbo or put up with it. I couldn't do the second but that's your call. You can't give out to the school if you don't opt out. If they continue to indoctrinate after opting out then you have a right to fight. It doesn't matter if the indoctrination is mixed up in the school day - they have no right to then include your child. To counter act any indoctrination that seeps through make sure to teach your child about all the religions etc. If you don't opt out then its unfair on the school for you to ring up like you did.

I think you are right. I think I will have to go in tomorrow and opt him out. He is only 5 years old FFS. It is an absurd and ridiculous situation.

Sulla Felix · 08-09-2013 10:53am

I think since you're aware of it, you'll be able to neutralize it.

FouxDaFaFa · 08-09-2013 11:01am

Do you know if there are other kids who have opted out and where they go during the time?

If there are a few maybe you could get whoever supervises them to do something useful with them during religion time? Even a reading circle or something.

When I think back on all the time in primary school wasted by religion, it makes me furious. I came out of it knowing all my prayers and hymns but barely able to add fractions, ffs.

robindch · 08-09-2013 11:05am

Geomy wrote: »

I think it's a bad idea to set the kid up for a face off with the teacher, I can see where you're coming from but the kid is far too young for that.

Better to set up the kid for a face off with his parents, or his parents against the school eh?

Geomy wrote: »

At 12 + maybe but 5 is far too young.

I take it you're still ok with indoctrinating kids aged five?

Obliq · 08-09-2013 2:06pm

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I think you are right. I think I will have to go in tomorrow and opt him out. He is only 5 years old FFS. It is an absurd and ridiculous situation.

Kiwi, I think that's for the best. If you talk to his teacher and express your concerns about him feeling left out or marginalised during RE lessons, ask how the teacher might try and include your son with the more fun things (colouring pictures in the alive workbook for example, might not damage him for life!) whilst avoiding the indoctrination part, and you might be pleasantly surprised by the teacher's response. My boys were delighted not to be doing RE, as it meant they could go on an educational game on the computer in the same class room. After 8 years of that, they are both the "go to" computer experts in their respective age groups, and my eldest is frequently pulled out of class in secondary school to go fix a teachers' computer dilemmas. I only opted them out of homework, and any class work that could be considered as indoctrination (everything except colouring really....and my eldest joined in the nativity play. Youngest didn't want to). Their teachers were more than happy to consider my son's needs as much as any other child's.

Kiwi in IE · 08-09-2013 2:37pm

I wouldn't want him being excluded from the nativity play. To me this is no different than a play based on any other fairytale.

Geomy · 08-09-2013 2:50pm

robindch wrote: »

Better to set up the kid for a face off with his parents, or his parents against the school eh?I take it you're still ok with indoctrinating kids aged five?

Oh here we go again, indoctrination indoctrination. ...you're taking this far too serious Robin....

It's hardly the Borg coming down to assimilate us all...

I am not ok with indoctrination, I think you're tweeting up the wrong tree, by feeling you can read my thoughts....

5 is far too young to be telling a kid to be saucy with the teachers, go back and read my post again....

inocybe · 08-09-2013 6:31pm

I have a 12 year old in a catholic primary school, and it's really just me that gets annoyed by the religion, it's so much water off a duck's back for him. There's no way your kid will end up indoctrinated if you talk about these things at home. I didn't ask for him to be removed from class, I think that would be quite upsetting for a 5 year old, and his peers would notice too. Kids that age don't need to be singled out as different.
When my son was about 6 he mentioned something about hell. I thought 'oh great, here we go', and asked him what he knew about hell. His answer 'you know, hell, where all the vampires are'.
he spent at least 6 months referred to jesus as 'she'. I always got a laugh out of it. I remember he had to colour a picture of jesus conjuring up fish as some miracle. He was quite angry at jesus for killing all these poor fish. He'd colour his religious pictures all crazy colours too, or sometimes all black.
At his age now he understands that catholic schools are something we're stuck with from the past, that this will change, and that no-one can tell him what he believes. His attitude - religion class is better than work.

Geomy · 08-09-2013 6:46pm

inocybe wrote: »

I have a 12 year old in a catholic primary school, and it's really just me that gets annoyed by the religion, it's so much water off a duck's back for him. There's no way your kid will end up indoctrinated if you talk about these things at home. I didn't ask for him to be removed from class, I think that would be quite upsetting for a 5 year old, and his peers would notice too. Kids that age don't need to be singled out as different.
When my son was about 6 he mentioned something about hell. I thought 'oh great, here we go', and asked him what he knew about hell. His answer 'you know, hell, where all the vampires are'.
he spent at least 6 months referred to jesus as 'she'. I always got a laugh out of it. I remember he had to colour a picture of jesus conjuring up fish as some miracle. He was quite angry at jesus for killing all these poor fish. He'd colour his religious pictures all crazy colours too, or sometimes all black.
At his age now he understands that catholic schools are something we're stuck with from the past, that this will change, and that no-one can tell him what he believes. His attitude - religion class is better than work.

I think the kid's of today's society are that bit sharper.

Animord · 08-09-2013 7:32pm

My friend's four children are all at the local national school (aged 11, 10 and five). She tried to have them opted out of religion but there weren't enough teachers to supervise so they had to sit in the classes. They all went through the phase of genuflecting, repeating the prayers etc, and my friend just took the line of "well that's lovely darling and well done for learning it, but we don't do that at home because ....."

They are all fine, and I think, in retrospect, she took the right line - they children just aren't very interested in the whole thing.

Benny_Cake · 08-09-2013 7:35pm

inocybe wrote: »

I have a 12 year old in a catholic primary school, and it's really just me that gets annoyed by the religion, it's so much water off a duck's back for him. There's no way your kid will end up indoctrinated if you talk about these things at home.

I think that this is true enough. Like most people here probably, I attended a Catholic primary school and can say, hand on heart, that all the religious instruction achieved very little in terms of religious observance in later years - at least among those I am still in touch with. If it was indoctrination, it was very unsuccessful. By the time I went to secondary school, there was no religious instruction at all, and this was run by the Presentation Brothers! The Catholic church has been shooting itself in the foot for years with the current system and if there was any sense of original thinking they'd bring religious formation back to the parish and get the parents involved.

Young people will come to whichever conclusions they like about life, the universe and everything in good time. Honestly though, given the strength of your views Kiwi it might not be a bad idea to have him sit it out. How will people ever be aware that this is an issue if others don't speak up? Hope it works out for you.

Brian Shanahan · 08-09-2013 9:30pm

Geomy wrote: »

Ok I can see where you're coming from, if it works for you and your kid's that's cool.

Have to get me a woman thick enough to take me, and rich enough to have me kept, yet. It's a hard task.

Brian Shanahan · 08-09-2013 9:35pm

Geomy wrote: »

Oh here we go again, indoctrination indoctrination. ...you're taking this far too serious Robin....

It's hardly the Borg coming down to assimilate us all...

I am not ok with indoctrination, I think you're tweeting up the wrong tree, by feeling you can read my thoughts....

5 is far too young to be telling a kid to be saucy with the teachers, go back and read my post again....

Actually in a catholic primary school indoctrination is too mild. Most of the time it is full on brainwashing.

Mr_A · 08-09-2013 11:06pm

I have a nine year old girl who has gone through school opting out of the Catholic stuff. It's been grand really, although there have been bumps in the road- we've had to remind teachers of the situation when they weren't told at the start of the year and the first communion year was tricky at times. Kids are adaptable and stronger than we often give them credit for. If you do go that way it will most likely be perfectly fine. And the more people opt out, the more will have the gumption to do so.

Geomy · 09-09-2013 1:31am

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Actually in a catholic primary school indoctrination is too mild. Most of the time it is full on brainwashing.

I was a classic case of being in trouble for not listening in school, I was a bit rebellions. ...

Didn't brain wash my head. ...

And it begins..................

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