[Paddy Bateman]

Originally Posted by Denalihighway

FFS! this is what I'm talking about

did I have to type the words "while skiing" after "falling" for it to make more sense?

Read my next line "The doctor informs the women of the adverse effects of falls/collision/slipping etc while pregnant and based on that risk they generally advise against it"

When I talk about falling I'm clearly talking about within the context of skiing. That post is borderliine trolling.

As Duncan would say...I'm out.

It's the degree of risk involved in skiing that the site I have linked to illustrates

[drkpower]

Originally Posted by Denalihighway

again, I disagree.

The doctor is not advising against falling - they are advising against taking the risk of falling. No woman goes to their doc and says "Listen doc I'm
going to Austria to fall on my ass all day for 7 days, whadda ya think?"

Why would you take advice from your doctor as to the risk (or chance) of you falling while you are skiing? How does medical knowledge inform that assessment?

(A) What a doctor will advise is what damage you might do if you fall. (B) You make the assessment as to the chances of you falling. A decision as to whether to ski will arise out of a consideration of A and B.

If the risk of (B) is nil/negligible, (A) is essentiallly irrelevant.
However, if there is more risk of (B), (A) becomes more and more relevant.

It is all very straightforward really.

[Denalihighway]

Originally Posted by drkpower

Why would you take advice from your doctor as to the risk (or chance) of you falling while you are skiing? How does medical knowledge inform that assessment?

(A) What a doctor will advise is what damage you might do if you fall. (B) You make the assessment as to the chances of you falling. A decision as to whether to ski will arise out of a consideration of A and B.

If the risk of (B) is nil/negligible, (A) is essentiallly irrelevant.
However, if there is more risk of (B), (A) becomes more and more relevant.

It is all very straightforward really.

yes it is straightforward.

doctors generally advise against skiing while pregnant. i presume at this stage that's accepted.

so to amend your statement slightly:

(A) What a doctor will advise is what damage you might do if you fall. - accepted.

(B) most doctors (knowing that they should advise against ANY voluntary, additional risk to an unborn child) advise against skiing while pregnant.

simples

what is not relevant in this argument is what you and other folks keep coming back to - which is the individual's assessment of risk. This is completely irrelevant. Some people with bad hearts decide to go scuba diving, is that wise? Some people don't wear helmets on motorbikes...

I accept a bad skier is more likely to fall/get hit than a good skier. I accept there is more chance of it happening on a crowded slope than a quiet one. Clearly there are many variables.

however, none of them, however small, change the fact that it is not recommended/advised, which is what the OP asked. anyone in their right mind would naturally come to the conclusion that the fact that it is not advised acknowledges unnecessary risks involved.

[drkpower]

Originally Posted by Denalihighway

(B) most doctors (knowing that they should advise against ANY voluntary, additional risk to an unborn child) advise against skiing while pregnant.

This is where your argument falls down. Doctors do not advise against ANY voluntary, additional risk to an unborn child.

[EileenG]

Originally Posted by Denalihighway

(B) most doctors (knowing that they should advise against ANY voluntary, additional risk to an unborn child) advise against skiing while pregnant.

Just for interest, I asked a doctor who skies about this. She shrugged and said she wouldn't suggest taking up skiing if you've never done it, but more because you are more likely to end up with a minor injury which would be harder to treat with the restrictad range of pain-killers available than because of risk to the pregnancy. She had no problem with a competant skier going skiing.

[Denalihighway]

Originally Posted by drkpower

This is where your argument falls down. Doctors do not advise against ANY voluntary, additional risk to an unborn child.

your argument keeps falling down because you insist on distracting people with stuff like this, (yes, I take your point, its impossible to avoid all risk ...but a doc will attempt to advise their patient away from unnecessary ones) rather than acknowledging that doctors generally advise against skiing while pregnant. pure and simple.

@EileenG

that's one doctor. And lets bet she's skied while pregnant. Not exactly the impartial sources we're looking for.

EDIT: Is it at possible for anyone to at least concede that most doctors advise against skiing while pregnant, irrespective of the stage of pregnancy or skiing ability?

I have conceded that the risks are minimised (greatly in some cases) by the permutations of the various variables involved. I don't how you cannot concede the first point.

[robinph]

Originally Posted by Denalihighway

@EileenG

that's one doctor. And lets bet she's skied while pregnant. Not exactly the impartial sources we're looking for.

A doctor who has experience of skiing is surely more qualified to give an opinion than one who has not. It does not make them biased more one way or the other, it just gives them the full set of information on what it actually involves and the level of risks which is what this all comes down to.

Most GP's will just say no, to cover themselves and stop people asking them awkward questions (for which there is not really a correct answer anyway).

[Denalihighway]

Originally Posted by robinph

A doctor who has experience of skiing is surely more qualified to give an opinion than one who has not. It does not make them biased more one way or the other, it just gives them the full set of information on what it actually involves and the level of risks which is what this all comes down to.

Most GP's will just say no, to cover themselves and stop people asking them awkward questions (for which there is not really a correct answer anyway).

that's not the concession i required. but i'll take it at this point.

anyways. healthy debate...

[Stark]

Interesting thread here on cycling while pregnant: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...did=2056555397 (and an article from the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...gnant-cyclists).

(Interesting because there would be similar "omg, what if you fall?" issues).

[drkpower]

Originally Posted by Denalihighway

your argument keeps falling down because you insist on distracting people with stuff like this, (yes, I take your point, its impossible to avoid all risk ...but a doc will attempt to advise their patient away from unnecessary ones) rather than acknowledging that doctors generally advise against skiing while pregnant. pure and simple..

It is not distraction; it is at the core of the issue but unfortunately, you havent grasped it yet.

It is indeed imposible to avoid all risk; there you are correct. So what people do is to essentially perform their own risk assessment as to the relative risks of all sorts of activities. For woman A, the experienced cyclist and one time skiier, the risk of falling while skiing will be far too high to consider engaging in that activity. For the same woman A, the risk of falling while cycling may be very very low and may be reasonably considered to be a risk worth taking (whilst woman A will acknowledge that cycling remians an additional unnecessary voluntary risk).

For Woman B, the experienced skiier and novice cyclist, the risk assessment might be different. The risk of falling in their case while in engaging in skiing (in certain conditions) might be extremely low so as to amount to being negligible); the risk of falling while cycling, however, might be quite high.

Do you see how the nature of advice given, and the nature of a risk assessment, might differ between different individuals? I hope so, because it is at the heart of medical advice.

Originally Posted by Denalihighway

Is it at possible for anyone to at least concede that most doctors advise against skiing while pregnant, irrespective of the stage of pregnancy or skiing ability?.

There are two major problems with your question: First, I suspect that you have no specific evidence to support the suggestion that most doctors advise against skiing while pregnant, irrespective of skiing ability. If you do, please share.

Second, that you search for a concession that most doctors advise against skiing while pregnant only illustrates further that you do not get the central issue!

Of course, most doctors advise against skiing in pregnancy. That is because the vast majority of pregnant woman are not proficient and experienced skiiers, and therefore it poses a significant risk of falling for the vast majority of pregnant woman. On the flip side, most doctors advise that cycling is fine in pregnancy. Why? Because, the vast majority of pregnant woman are proficient and experienced cyclists. That is simply by virtue of the fact that people tend to learn and continue practising cycling all throughout their lives.

So to summarise, and hopefullly you will get it this time, the issue with skiing (as with cycling) in pregnancy is the risk of falling. Your typical pregnant woman is more likely to fall while skiing, so doctors will typically advise against skiing in pregnancy. Your typical pregnant woman is quite unlikely to fall while cycling, so doctors will typically advise that cycling is ok in pregnancy. But the variable is the likelihood of a fall, not the activity itself. That will clearly depend on the proficiency of the woman at the activity concerned.

[Denalihighway]

Originally Posted by drkpower

It is not distraction; it is at the core of the issue but unfortunately, you havent grasped it yet.

It is indeed imposible to avoid all risk; there you are correct. So what people do is to essentially perform their own risk assessment as to the relative risks of all sorts of activities. For woman A, the experienced cyclist and one time skiier, the risk of falling while skiing will be far too high to consider engaging in that activity. For the same woman A, the risk of falling while cycling may be very very low and may be reasonably considered to be a risk worth taking (whilst woman A will acknowledge that cycling remians an additional unnecessary voluntary risk).

For Woman B, the experienced skiier and novice cyclist, the risk assessment might be different. The risk of falling in their case while in engaging in skiing (in certain conditions) might be extremely low so as to amount to being negligible); the risk of falling while cycling, however, might be quite high.

Do you see how the nature of advice given, and the nature of a risk assessment, might differ between different individuals? I hope so, because it is at the heart of medical advice.



There are two major problems with your question: First, I suspect that you have no specific evidence to support the suggestion that most doctors advise against skiing while pregnant, irrespective of skiing ability. If you do, please share.

Second, that you search for a concession that most doctors advise against skiing while pregnant only illustrates further that you do not get the central issue!

Of course, most doctors advise against skiing in pregnancy. That is because the vast majority of pregnant woman are not proficient and experienced skiiers, and therefore it poses a significant risk of falling for the vast majority of pregnant woman. On the flip side, most doctors advise that cycling is fine in pregnancy. Why? Because, the vast majority of pregnant woman are proficient and experienced cyclists. That is simply by virtue of the fact that people tend to learn and continue practising cycling all throughout their lives.

So to summarise, and hopefullly you will get it this time, the issue with skiing (as with cycling) in pregnancy is the risk of falling. Your typical pregnant woman is more likely to fall while skiing, so doctors will typically advise against skiing in pregnancy. Your typical pregnant woman is quite unlikely to fall while cycling, so doctors will typically advise that cycling is ok in pregnancy. But the variable is the likelihood of a fall, not the activity itself. That will clearly depend on the proficiency of the woman at the activity concerned.

A doctor generally will advise against skiing while pregnant. That is why they give general information online taking into account they have no way of knowing the readers variables. Therefore your points about risk assessment don't even come into it.

Regarding my proof? Surprised you haven't pulled that card already - do a web search of 20 medical articles on the web - see how many advise against. You'll come to the same conclusion I did. I could easily ask you to give me evidence that doctors advise pregnant women to go skiing, there's probably a few out there you can dig up.

My points above have always been in relation to general medical advice about skiing while pregnant. You want to talk variables.

I'm actually starting to sound like a troll at this stage. I'm not as hardcore as other posters - I believe there is something to be set for the variables.

However, Doctors, in general, do not advise skiing while pregnant. . You say this yourself in your last post.

[drkpower]

Originally Posted by Denalihighway

Regarding my proof? Surprised you haven't pulled that card already - do a web search of 20 medical articles on the web - see how many advise against. You'll come to the same conclusion I did. I could easily ask you to give me evidence that doctors advise pregnant women to go skiing, there's probably a few out there you can dig up..

Do any of those articles specifically support the suggestion that most doctors advise against skiing while pregnant, irrespective of skiing ability?

No; didnt think so. (I went to the bother of bolding an underlying words and phrases in my last post so that you might have understood the point I was making)

Originally Posted by Denalihighway

However, Doctors, in general, do not advise skiing while pregnant. . You say this yourself in your last post.

Im pretty sure I said this in my other posts too! Again, the fact that you point to that fact simply illustrates the fact that you understand the point.

The reason for most doctors advising against skiing is because most women are not proficient skiers. The point many people are trying to make to you is this:

A doctor, faced with a pregnant woman who is a proficient skier, will not advise her to refrain from skiing, in fact he will probably encourage it (just as a doctor, faced with a pregnant woman who is a proficient cyclist, will not advise her to refrain from cycling, in fact he will probably encourage it).

Do you accept that premise?

[Denalihighway]

Originally Posted by drkpower

A doctor, faced with a pregnant woman who is a proficient skier, will not advise her to refrain from skiing, in fact he will probably encourage it (just as a doctor, faced with a pregnant woman who is a proficient cyclist, will not advise her to refrain from cycling, in fact he will probably encourage it).

Do you accept that premise?

yer having a laugh now...

[hans aus dtschl]

You should absolutely ski whilst pregnant.

Light easy activity, a week of relaxation, fresh air, I'd say it would be fantastic for a pregnant woman, especially given that skiing generally happens in winter, a time of year they're unlikely to get outside due to the weather.

Watch out for other people knocking you over though (10% of ski accidents involve collisions).
And remember there's a collossal ~0.25% chance of injury. Compared with around a 2% chance whilst cycling. So it's really dangerous for the unborn child. Around an eighth as dangerous as cycling.

[hans aus dtschl]

Of course it's worth pointing out that you're about as likely to be injured as a motorist, as you would whilst cycling.

http://www.bhsi.org/stats.htm
http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm
http://www.ski-injury.com/intro
http://www.ski-injury.com/injury-statistics/stats1


meh, statistics and random website links can show anything really...