Waterford-Limerick Junction to be mothballed

Master and commander · 22-08-2011 4:58pm #1

I have just been told by a Permanent way worker in the train staion in cahir that the railway line from waterford to Limerick Junction is to close to passenger traffic at some stage in 2012.
I kinda know him and i passed him by the spar and i asked what was going on over the past few months as there has been alot of work on the track and upgrading of level crossings in my area during the last while.
Anyway he said that the line was undergoing preparation for mothballing and they were re-establishing boundaries by erecting wire fencing along the track and replacing LC gates so that there would be no-one taking over as such.
He said that they have been replacing a lot of sleepers around cahir/clonmel with new ones and that alot of drainage work was being done also to keep the line in re-openable condition should a service be re opened. HE was saying that IE did a study on it and basically , it would be cheaper for IE to put all the passengers into taxis for the journey than to operate the trains and maintain the PW.
we were talking about the track and the relay with CWR and he told me that the remaining sections to be relaid are not going to be done as the money isn't there and that all that would be done is to do patch resleepering to maintain it for the time being. Said the section is life expired and there are no plans for a full relay.
They have replaced lots of LC gates in my area also to maintain a good boundary and although he said that he was not sure when it would close but was sure it was in the pipe as this is the type of work done before a mothball. I asked would they keep it for freight and he said that it was unlikely as the axle loadings for the life expired sections are too low for laden freight trains and that that due to restrictions on speed that all the freight would just be routed through cherryville. Only empty wagons pass on the line now and the 201 class is not cleared to run on it due to axle weights.

What a shame as this is an important link. I'd like him to be wrong but i doubt he is as he has been working there since he was 16 and is now near retirement age. He'd know the signs i suppose. I hope SWIFFT get on this before the announcement is made.

merlante · 22-08-2011 5:25pm

To be quite honest, IE only want to run Dublin services that are the cash cows. Everything else smacks of effort for them, and they have consistently attempted to close them. Running a service so badly that taxis would be cheaper is, in my opinion, more a reflection on them than on the worth of the service. A good service would be used, because I'm sure there is a competing bus service that is going well.

Kind of a joke building the western rail corridor whilst shutting down what is in effect the southern section. Every rail "network" has strong services and weak services. The attitude in this country is just to do strong services. The problem is that when you discontinue the weaker services -- or pair them back to nothing as IE has already done -- you lose the value of the network. The ability to get on in Wexford and get off in Galway. The knowledge that these services are more than the sum of their parts. If you know that every town over 15-20K is on the rail network, then you think 'train' when you travel. When people stop thinking 'train', all the services suffer.

As far as I'm concerned, IE have been trying to get out of passenger and freight rail for 50 years. Don't ask me what they think their actual business is.

And sure isn't the recession a great time for shutting things down?

Master and commander · 22-08-2011 5:34pm

well there is a bus eireann each way every 2 hours and on a sunday, so i guess people just go for that as its faster, more frequent and compare that with just 3 slow trains each way.
They have removed the passing loops in Cahir and tipperary and the carrick one is due to be removed just leaving clonmel which is very restrictive on what can be done in the future.
They have no interest.

200motels · 22-08-2011 9:38pm

And the road to Limerick is a total disgrace, that's why I took the train to Limerick to visit friends instead of driving. Shame on them.

Bards · 23-08-2011 9:34am

Why not tender the line out to someone who "Wants" to run the service. IE's monopoly should come to and end!

It's like a spoilt child saying "I don't want to play any more and I'm taking my toys home with me so no-one else can play"

Master and commander · 23-08-2011 9:38am

Thats right, and as Jackie Whelan of the West Clare Railway said, they sould not be allowed close a line without at least putting the service out to tender so someone else can at least try to succeed on it even if IE couldn't give two ****s.
Thing is though no-one would be able as IE would not sell/lease them the rolling stock and it would be too expensive to buy new stock. They (IE) would also time their services at either end to kill any private operator. Look at the south wexford line, they were so rigid the three potential operators pulled out.

hardybuck · 23-08-2011 10:43am

Contact the relevant councillers and TD's in the area. Try and get something in the local papers and radio.

What happened on the Rosslare line was a farce, can see the same result here.

AdMMM · 23-08-2011 2:34pm

I used to get the train to Limerick Junction every now and again and I was often the only person on the train for the entire journey. A lot of people will cry foul at Irish Rail's closure of this line but I really don't see what they could do to increase demand for the service.

hardybuck · 23-08-2011 2:49pm

AdMMM wrote: »

I used to get the train to Limerick Junction every now and again and I was often the only person on the train for the entire journey. A lot of people will cry foul at Irish Rail's closure of this line but I really don't see what they could do to increase demand for the service.

The service is both slow and expensive for commuters. Even on the Waterford - Dublin line you can get there quicker and cheaper in your car.

Particularly with the amount of people from Limerick and Waterford commuting to Clonmel, this should be a busy service. I have a friend from Limerick who drives to Clonmel every day, who says he would would like to use the service but the journey takes way too long and the timetable is poor.

Its like if you see a rubbish shop, poorly stocked, expensive and has poor opening hours. After a while people will just stop going there.

Bards · 23-08-2011 3:07pm

use cahir as the terminus for both sections of the line.

have a train every hour or so between Cahir and Limerick, same between Cahir and Waterford.

make sure trains arrive into cahir in and around the same time for transfers and arrive into Limerick & Waterford at suitable times E.G early morning for Commuters, etc.

Master and commander · 23-08-2011 3:15pm

come on seriously, sure cahir is tiny in fairness. Who would go on this train EVERY HOUR?
It wouldnt work anyway as the signalling in cahir is gone and there are no buffer stops or passing loops and there is only one platform which is not that big.

Clonmel maybe, but certainly not every hour or so. "hours would be the most.

tombliboo83 · 23-08-2011 3:52pm

There's clearly not enough demand and support for a rail service for it to be sustained long term. The timetable has been changed numerous times and the fares are competitive. Yes it is slow but this is due to the amount of resignalling that needs to be done, for which there is no money. So why gamble millions of euro on the hope that the service would be used after this resignalling when millions were already invested putting in CWR and repairing Cahir viaduct and passenger numbers remain paltry.

highlydebased · 23-08-2011 5:19pm

They don't need to resignal it.

The problem is the timetable- it's useless! No sunday service doesnt help either. They miss out on most their potential markets.

They ran trains to Cahir/Carrick on Suir for the tall ships and the numbers were very lucrative because they ran at proper times...

merlante · 23-08-2011 11:34pm

tombliboo83 wrote: »

There's clearly not enough demand and support for a rail service for it to be sustained long term. The timetable has been changed numerous times and the fares are competitive. Yes it is slow but this is due to the amount of resignalling that needs to be done, for which there is no money. So why gamble millions of euro on the hope that the service would be used after this resignalling when millions were already invested putting in CWR and repairing Cahir viaduct and passenger numbers remain paltry.

Demand is a funny thing. Fair enough, people are not falling over themselves to get onto those trains. Weaker services have to be built up over time, and yes, subsidised by other main artery services, for the sake of maintaining a decent network.

IE have never killed themselves aligning timetables, promoting services, maintaining and upgrading track/services over time (as opposed to running them into the ground) and so on. We all know what the unloved services in the country are. And whenever we might have considered using them, we found there were only 3 a day and all the times were wrong. And all the trains are crap and the services are slower than the car. Not exactly attractive is it?

I'd be very interesting to know what the volumes on the Waterford-Limerick bus services are. Those people would presumably travel on the train if the services were any way adequate at all. Delays at Limerick Junction and signaling, etc. are 'dog ate my homework' type excuses. They only have themselves to blame for a train on dedicated tracks being slower and less desirable than buses on an iffy road.

So demand is a red herring in my opinion. Demand has to be stimulated on weaker parts of the network, not neglected.

dashboard_hula · 24-08-2011 9:29am

My cars been out of action for the last 6 weeks, I only got it back yesterday, and every week that I've had to go up home I've gone on the train. Now it's my choice to use the train instead of the bus because it's a bit more convenient to my house, but the timetables are so weird. Dawn, lunchtime, night. Those are the exact times that people need to be elsewhere for, not leaving at! Tbh, I'd agree that Irish Rail aren't putting a lot of effort in with this route. I've spent a good few years living in Tipperary/Clonmel but working in Limerick/Clonmel/Waterford and if I could have used the train instead of the bus, I would have.

save the rail · 06-09-2011 2:34pm

Master and commander wrote: »

Thats right, and as Jackie Whelan of the West Clare Railway said, they sould not be allowed close a line without at least putting the service out to tender so someone else can at least try to succeed on it even if IE couldn't give two ****s.
Thing is though no-one would be able as IE would not sell/lease them the rolling stock and it would be too expensive to buy new stock. They (IE) would also time their services at either end to kill any private operator. Look at the south wexford line, they were so rigid the three potential operators pulled out.

ACTUALLY THEY HAVE NOT PULLED OUT - WE ARE MEETING AGAIN WITH MORE INTERESTED OPERATORS THIS MONTH. IF IT EVER REACHES THE STAGE WHERE WE CANT GET ANYONE ONTO THE SERVICE WE WILL BE THE FIRST TO SAY BUT THINGS ARE STILL IN MOTION

flyingsnail · 06-09-2011 2:53pm

save the rail wrote: »

ACTUALLY THEY HAVE NOT PULLED OUT - WE ARE MEETING AGAIN WITH MORE INTERESTED OPERATORS THIS MONTH. IF IT EVER REACHES THE STAGE WHERE WE CANT GET ANYONE ONTO THE SERVICE WE WILL BE THE FIRST TO SAY BUT THINGS ARE STILL IN MOTION

First off there is no need to shout.

If the original operators are still interested, what stage are your discussions at? Is this the first time you have met with the additional operators?

dayshah · 06-09-2011 7:25pm

hardybuck wrote: »

The service is both slow and expensive for commuters. Even on the Waterford - Dublin line you can get there quicker and cheaper in your car.

IE produced an interesting leaflet comparing their fees to going to car (ignoring wear and tear on the car). Its often cheaper to go by train. Also, on the train I can get some work done, like reading. I can't do that in a car or on a bus.

If the Limerick junction line isn't viable I hope they convert it into a cycle path.

save the rail · 07-09-2011 3:05pm

flyingsnail wrote: »

First off there is no need to shout.

If the original operators are still interested, what stage are your discussions at? Is this the first time you have met with the additional operators?

First off caps locks does not mean shouting OK.

Secondly the original operator is sourcing capital and are very eager. The meeting this month is with a new operator who is very interested. I have just received an email from the ministers office in relation to the line and am hoping he might at some stage agree to meet with us although to date he is using the same line as the previous minister " its a matter for the NTA " - so much for change

old gregg · 07-09-2011 3:23pm

save the rail wrote: »

First off caps locks does not mean shouting OK.

It does actually

Partizan · 07-09-2011 4:00pm

save the rail wrote: »

First off caps locks does not mean shouting OK.

Secondly the original operator is sourcing capital and are very eager. The meeting this month is with a new operator who is very interested. I have just received an email from the ministers office in relation to the line and am hoping he might at some stage agree to meet with us although to date he is using the same line as the previous minister " its a matter for the NTA " - so much for change

:rolleyes:

Out with the old, in with the old. Anyone who thought that FG/Lab would be any different than Zanu FF are in for a rude awkening.

Psychedelic · 07-09-2011 6:43pm

save the rail wrote: »

I have just received an email from the ministers office in relation to the line and am hoping he might at some stage agree to meet with us although to date he is using the same line as the previous minister " its a matter for the NTA " - so much for change

Any chance you could inform the media and elected representatives in Waterford & Wexford about the minister's lack of support.

julyjane · 07-09-2011 7:24pm

I agree the timetables are nuts, I live in Carrick and earlier this year I worked in Clonmel for a time. One day I had car trouble and got the train, it was much more relaxing than driving. I would have got the train every day after that but the only times it left at were 14.45 and 19.40 - neither time was even close to the typical evening commuter departure times

I occasionally need to travel to Limerick, and the one time I got the train I left at 7am, arrived in Limerick around 9, the train wasn't too packed there's just something about a train journey that I prefer over a bus journey. But now I usually travel on a Sunday and the train doesn't :mad:

dowlingm · 07-09-2011 7:41pm

Partizan wrote: »

Out with the old, in with the old. Anyone who thought that FG/Lab would be any different than Zanu FF are in for a rude awkening.

Anyone who thought FG/Lab were going to have the money to keep this line open was a clown. The only thing keeping Limerick-Ballybrophy open is Alan Kelly (note the GAA special last weekend) - there's no Alan Kelly for this line. If Kelly gets a reshuffle, you can reshuffle the Nenagh line into the "care and maintenance" hole.

Basically what the per way guy says seems on the money. Limerick Junction-Waterford needs huge investment and the same money spent on Athenry-Galway, Athlone-Portarlington, Athy-Waterford, Ennis-Limerick, Mallow-Cork, Connolly-Mullingar or the Northern Line approaches to Connolly would bring in an order of magnitude or more passengers over any time period. The sad thing is that the Limerick-Waterford road is one of the few still so crap that rail has a fighting chance against it, but IE's refusal to keep the line well maintained means 40mph trains are losing to buses even here.

Sad for Waterford that there were once six passenger railway lines serving the city (Rosslare, New Ross, Dungarvan, Clonmel, Kilkenny, Tramore) and soon it will be one.

save the rail · 07-09-2011 7:50pm

Psychedelic wrote: »

Any chance you could inform the media and elected representatives in Waterford & Wexford about the minister's lack of support.

The media are already aware of the ministers attitude to this problem.
We are fighting the ministers all the time because they are afraid that we will prove them wrong about the line. They have no interest in the work we are doing or the potential jobs that could be created or the tourism that could be generated

dowlingm · 07-09-2011 9:42pm

save the rail wrote: »

I have just received an email from the ministers office in relation to the line and am hoping he might at some stage agree to meet with us although to date he is using the same line as the previous minister " its a matter for the NTA " - so much for change

Varadkar or Kelly? It was the latter who organised the GAA special ex Nenagh on Sunday.

save the rail · 07-09-2011 9:55pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Varadkar or Kelly? It was the latter who organised the GAA special ex Nenagh on Sunday.

Varadkar

Partizan · 07-09-2011 10:46pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Anyone who thought FG/Lab were going to have the money to keep this line open was a clown. The only thing keeping Limerick-Ballybrophy open is Alan Kelly (note the GAA special last weekend) - there's no Alan Kelly for this line. If Kelly gets a reshuffle, you can reshuffle the Nenagh line into the "care and maintenance" hole.

Basically what the per way guy says seems on the money. Limerick Junction-Waterford needs huge investment and the same money spent on Athenry-Galway, Athlone-Portarlington, Athy-Waterford, Ennis-Limerick, Mallow-Cork, Connolly-Mullingar or the Northern Line approaches to Connolly would bring in an order of magnitude or more passengers over any time period. The sad thing is that the Limerick-Waterford road is one of the few still so crap that rail has a fighting chance against it, but IE's refusal to keep the line well maintained means 40mph trains are losing to buses even here.

Sad for Waterford that there were once six passenger railway lines serving the city (Rosslare, New Ross, Dungarvan, Clonmel, Kilkenny, Tramore) and soon it will be one.

Did you see the timetable for the line? The clue should be there. Money has been invested in the line.

LXFlyer · 08-09-2011 10:08am

dashboard_hula wrote: »

My cars been out of action for the last 6 weeks, I only got it back yesterday, and every week that I've had to go up home I've gone on the train. Now it's my choice to use the train instead of the bus because it's a bit more convenient to my house, but the timetables are so weird. Dawn, lunchtime, night. Those are the exact times that people need to be elsewhere for, not leaving at! Tbh, I'd agree that Irish Rail aren't putting a lot of effort in with this route. I've spent a good few years living in Tipperary/Clonmel but working in Limerick/Clonmel/Waterford and if I could have used the train instead of the bus, I would have.

julyjane wrote: »

I agree the timetables are nuts, I live in Carrick and earlier this year I worked in Clonmel for a time. One day I had car trouble and got the train, it was much more relaxing than driving. I would have got the train every day after that but the only times it left at were 14.45 and 19.40 - neither time was even close to the typical evening commuter departure times

I occasionally need to travel to Limerick, and the one time I got the train I left at 7am, arrived in Limerick around 9, the train wasn't too packed there's just something about a train journey that I prefer over a bus journey. But now I usually travel on a Sunday and the train doesn't :mad:

The timetable is actually designed primarily with Clonmel-Dublin traffic (and v.v.) in mind - the first train connects at Limerick Junction with the 0730 Cork-Heuston, thereby meaning you can leave Clonmel at 0728 and be in Dublin for 0950, returning on the 1700 to Cork and getting to Clonmel for 1940.

However, the lack of a Sunday service totally scuppers the line as it cuts out the valuable weekend traffic. This reason that the company don't operate on Sundays is that the high number of staffed level crossings on the route would require significant overtime costs. However for the line to survive a Sunday service is essential, along with a Clonmel-Waterford commuter service. By next year there ought to be rolling stock available to operate such a service.

LXFlyer · 08-09-2011 11:48am

Master and commander wrote: »

I have just been told by a Permanent way worker in the train staion in cahir that the railway line from waterford to Limerick Junction is to close to passenger traffic at some stage in 2012.
I kinda know him and i passed him by the spar and i asked what was going on over the past few months as there has been alot of work on the track and upgrading of level crossings in my area during the last while.
Anyway he said that the line was undergoing preparation for mothballing and they were re-establishing boundaries by erecting wire fencing along the track and replacing LC gates so that there would be no-one taking over as such.
He said that they have been replacing a lot of sleepers around cahir/clonmel with new ones and that alot of drainage work was being done also to keep the line in re-openable condition should a service be re opened. HE was saying that IE did a study on it and basically , it would be cheaper for IE to put all the passengers into taxis for the journey than to operate the trains and maintain the PW.
we were talking about the track and the relay with CWR and he told me that the remaining sections to be relaid are not going to be done as the money isn't there and that all that would be done is to do patch resleepering to maintain it for the time being. Said the section is life expired and there are no plans for a full relay.
They have replaced lots of LC gates in my area also to maintain a good boundary and although he said that he was not sure when it would close but was sure it was in the pipe as this is the type of work done before a mothball. I asked would they keep it for freight and he said that it was unlikely as the axle loadings for the life expired sections are too low for laden freight trains and that that due to restrictions on speed that all the freight would just be routed through cherryville. Only empty wagons pass on the line now and the 201 class is not cleared to run on it due to axle weights.

What a shame as this is an important link. I'd like him to be wrong but i doubt he is as he has been working there since he was 16 and is now near retirement age. He'd know the signs i suppose. I hope SWIFFT get on this before the announcement is made.

No disrespect, but you're taking the word of (and I'm not being derogatory here) a low grade employee in the company about a decision that will have to be taken at senior management, then board, then NTA and finally government level?

While there is a possibility that the line may close, there is no certainty that it will as no decision has been made at any of those levels yet.

Perhaps a lot of the work done is actually legitimate work under the rail safety programme....

dowlingm · 08-09-2011 2:01pm

lxflyer wrote: »

there is no certainty that it will as no decision has been made at any of those levels yet.

Sure about that? Do you attend IE board meetings? This might well be the case but you're bringing a lot of certainty to your post.

Waterford-Limerick Junction to be mothballed

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