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Rotavate or not....

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  • 26-05-2011 10:56am
    #1
    pleuraXeraphim
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭


    Hi,

    We got our garden dug last year, raked and seeded by a landscaper with some top soil added.
    However disapointingly after the work was completed, the ground was uneven, there was still some of the original builders debri underneath especially at the edges and more importantly in 3 different areas after rainfall, water just sits on the surface making parts of the garden wet and muddy most of the year. The landscaper claims the drainage was not his problem and made a half hearted effort at putting down some top soil in places to even the surface.

    But anyway I am now thinking of going and doing this work myself despite having no experience at it.
    I was thinking of rotavating the soil, putting down two french drains to take away the water, then raking and seeding.

    The question is: Looking at the photos does anyone think rotivating is the best option or is it completely necessary. I.e Can I get away without doing it ?
    1) Picture 'garden_dimension_2.jpg' is a schematic of the garden showing wet patches and dimensions.
    1) Picture 'garden1.jpg': Side view of Garden. The Water sits basically in front of the shed, to the left of the patio, and in the far corner as is visible.
    2) Picture 'garden2.jpg show the water gathering in front of the shed.
    3) Picture 'garden3.jpg show the water gathering to the left of the patio.
    4) Picture 'garden4.jpg show the damp/marshy area in right hand corner of garden.

    Note: The garden slopes from right to left in Photo 'garden1.jpg'.

    Does the garden look in bad enough shape to need rotivating or would a tiller suffice in just some spots ? Does it look bad enough to warrant getting an expert in? I would like to try and do this myself and limit the cost as we have already paid to have this done and are now faced with re-doing the work again. I just want a flat lawn with decent drainage.

    Any advise or questions would be really appreciated.
    Sorry for long winded explanation

    Thanks Dave


«13

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    #2
    sponge_bob
    Registered Users Posts: 665 ✭✭✭sponge_bob


    rotavating the whole thing will not do anything for the drainage.
    i would try spreading a bit of topsoil in the holes to fill them and throw some seed on it and see what happens. the whole garden looks like it could do with a shake of seed.
    if you do put down some drainage pipes where will you run them too?


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    #3
    Clare man
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭Clare man


    I had similar problem and what I chose to do was buy in some topsoil and use in targeted way to level out plot. This worked fine for me. You cqn do this easily yourself.

    The one thing that is unclear from your photos is if you have a drainage problem, eg regular pooling of water after rainfall. If this is the case you need to do seom remedial work.


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    #4
    pleuraXeraphim
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭pleuraXeraphim


    Thanks for the reply sponge_bob.

    In the picture 'garden1.jpg' there is a wall beyond the shed at back of garden> behind that wall is no mans land and I could safely drain the water in there. There is already gaps under the precast concrete wall so I could run the drainage pipes underneath.

    In the schematic picture 'garden_dimension_2.jpg' I was gonna
    1) Run a french drain on the right side of the patio to the back wall and underneath
    2) Run a french drain on the left side of patio across to the side of the shed and underneath.

    The main problem I would run into is that draining the water in front of the shed. Because the shed is in the way and I cant drain to the left of the shed (Neighbours Garden) I would have to drain against the slope to the second french drain.


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    #5
    sponge_bob
    Registered Users Posts: 665 ✭✭✭sponge_bob


    Clare man wrote: »
    I had similar problem and what I chose to do was buy in some topsoil and use in targeted way to level out plot. This worked fine for me. You cqn do this easily yourself.

    The one thing that is unclear from your photos is if you have a drainage problem, eg regular pooling of water after rainfall. If this is the case you need to do seom remedial work.


    i would imagine that once the holes are filled in then the water will run off the lawn. op does say there is a natural slope from right to left in the garden.


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    #6
    pleuraXeraphim
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭pleuraXeraphim


    Clare man wrote: »
    The one thing that is unclear from your photos is if you have a drainage problem, eg regular pooling of water after rainfall. If this is the case you need to do seom remedial work.

    Yeah its the drainage is the main concern for me. There is always a build up of water after rain. Especially in front of the shed. I guess I will need to put in some french drains. I am new to this so where to run the drains I wouldnt be too sure.


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    #7
    pleuraXeraphim
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭pleuraXeraphim


    sponge_bob wrote: »
    i would imagine that once the holes are filled in then the water will run off the lawn. op does say there is a natural slope from right to left in the garden.

    There isnt really any holes in the garden, just uneven in places and rough. Which I guess as suggested, can be corrected with more topsoil.

    I was thinking of rotivating as I reckoned that the underlying material is preventing good drainage. So I was gonna rotivate and clear any materials.

    The slope is from right to left but would be a small gradual slope.


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    #8
    redser7
    Registered Users Posts: 2,729 ✭✭✭redser7


    Digging drains would be major work. Would you consider giving yourself another year and try sort it out by adding more topsoil and regular spiking? Do it systematically and take photos. Watch what happens as you treat one area. Does the water run to another area? If you can get the grass gowing well it would naturally suck up some moisture too. If you can get the water running off to a particualr area you could think about digging a soak pit then (maybe under the shed). Much easier. But if digging drains doesn't scare you then go for it and good luck.


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    #9
    sponge_bob
    Registered Users Posts: 665 ✭✭✭sponge_bob


    pleuraXeraphim wrote: »
    There isnt really any holes in the garden, just uneven in places and rough. Which I guess as suggested, can be corrected with more topsoil.

    I was thinking of rotivating as I reckoned that the underlying material is preventing good drainage. So I was gonna rotivate and clear any materials.

    The slope is from right to left but would be a small gradual slope.


    water dosn't mind how steep the slope is:D but the fact that it is a very gentle slope is why you are getting this "hole" effect. if it were steeper you wouldn't notice these "holes".
    i would deffinetly try raking in a few wheelbarrows of soil first though before i would go rooting up the whole place.

    there is another thing you can do for drainage but i have never seen it or used it before just heard about it. but you can get a machine that you drive/pull/push around your lawn and it drives long thin pins about 10"-12" down through the soil to help improve drainage. maybe someone else on here might have used it or know more about it.


    disclaimer:
    i may have dreamt about such a machine one night after a serious amt of drink, it might not even exist


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    #10
    pleuraXeraphim
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭pleuraXeraphim


    :D Sorry not up with the terminology, I see what you mean now by holes.

    Thanks a million to all of you for the suggestions. I will try and figure out a way of improving drainage without digging the french drains. A Lawn Spike or a magic Machine :)
    I had to dig up the water pipe last winter in the snow and then re-bury it deeper down. It was tough going and best avoided :)

    Anyway might post up how I am getting on with this for anyone that might be interested.

    Thanks again Dave


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    #11
    redser7
    Registered Users Posts: 2,729 ✭✭✭redser7


    Sounds like it was a dream alright. Had been watching chitty chitty bang bang? :-)
    But you can get aerators. Get yourself a hollow-tined aerator. About 10 or 20 euro. Or you can get a mechanical one like a lawnmower. It will remove soil plugs to help aerate the soil and also help drainage. You can sweep sharp sand into the holes to help the drainage before the holes close over. Is part of good regular lawn maintenance but you could probably do with doing this a few times a year till your problem is sorted.
    This is a good book ...
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lawn-Expert-Dr-D-Hessayon/dp/0903505487/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306409655&sr=8-1


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    #12
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    sponge_bob wrote: »
    there is another thing you can do for drainage but i have never seen it or used it before just heard about it. but you can get a machine that you drive/pull/push around your lawn and it drives long thin pins about 10"-12" down through the soil to help improve drainage. maybe someone else on here might have used it or know more about it.
    disclaimer:
    i may have dreamt about such a machine one night after a serious amt of drink, it might not even exist

    That would be a hollow tine aerator sponge bob :D
    I wouldn't hold out much hope for its effectiveness in this case.
    The condition of that soil is shocking - I have my doubts that it is topsoil at all. It is definitely compacted and chucking a few buckets of topsoil on isn't going to do any good. You really need to know what's underneath. I've had plenty of experience of builder's using gardens as skips; I've had to extract corrugated roof sheets, barrels, sheets of plastic - you name it, builders bury it! And then they cover it all up with nutrient and structurally poor subsoil. By and large, they either don't know or don't care about the difference between sub and topsoil. I'm sure though, that not all builders are like this ;)
    Sorry to be a doom and gloom merchant, but I suspect you might have to call in a pro - and I suspect they will advise a complete fresh start. That might be the cheapest option in the long run - if the quality of the lawn is important to you.


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    #13
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Redser7 beat me to it!


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    #14
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,442 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    what's the deepest you've dug into the soil?


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    #15
    pleuraXeraphim
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭pleuraXeraphim


    slowburner wrote: »
    ... I suspect you might have to call in a pro - and I suspect they will advise a complete fresh start. That might be the cheapest option in the long run - if the quality of the lawn is important to you.

    Thats the frustrating thing: We thought we had already gotten in a professional to give us a nice garden after the builders were gone.

    Initially the builder (In liquidation) just put top soil (from another site) over the garden covering any debri that had been there. We had no idea how bad the underlying ground was. So when we moved into the house we hired a landscaper to dig the site, rake and plant seed. That was back completed around last September. We were at work the day they dug the garden.

    It looked okay at first but after a little bit of rain the quality of the work was exposed.
    The landscaper was blaming the heavy rains and said that he would come back after the winter and put down top soil. He was also saying that we never mentioned anything to him about needing drainage. I would have imagined that if you hire someone to clear a site and put down a lawn that they would be responsible for that. After all there supposed to know what they are doing.

    I know for a fact that despite claims that they (the landscaper) dug up the garden, some of the original builders material is just below the surface. I have no idea how bad it is.

    So I guess its probably best to get someone to dig it all up again and do it properly ?
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    what's the deepest you've dug into the soil?
    In December I dug down about a foot and a half. It was tough going, nice few rocks but not too much builders debri but that was the nearest spot to the house.


    Thanks again for the different advise


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    #16
    pleuraXeraphim
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭pleuraXeraphim


    redser7 wrote: »
    This is a good book ...
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lawn-Expert-Dr-D-Hessayon/dp/0903505487/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306409655&sr=8-1

    Thanks Redser
    Will go get that book. I've actually acquired alot of his other books recently and they are very good.


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    #17
    dec7golf
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭dec7golf


    i'd rotavate it and reassess the condition of what you have to work with there.. looks like top soil is not great. you may need to remove some of the bad / sub soil from the garden and bring in some good soil.

    the underlying drainage may be poor but its a small garden there are solutions if you have the time / will .


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    #18
    redser7
    Registered Users Posts: 2,729 ✭✭✭redser7


    Check the second hand copies, they go for 1 penny and you pay the shipping of 3 pounds or so. You'll have it in a few days. Otherwise you'll pay 12 euro plus in a shop here.


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    #19
    pleuraXeraphim
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭pleuraXeraphim


    I had been searching for related threads since yesterday and only now finally came across this one:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054939061

    Its a great read. Definitely is inspiring me to go and try it out myself :)


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    #20
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    And you'd be right too! At least you'll know for sure that things have been done properly.

    Re. the thread above: there's an alternative method, which I used to use in these situations -
    • Remove all the imported soil and debris back to original ground level
    • Cover the area with a layer of clean 4" crushed stone
    • Blind this layer with pea gravel
    • Blind the gravel with sand
    • Finish with at least 5" of good, clean screened topsoil with a little sand added
    I've never been a fan of perforated land drains - they always clog up if there's no great fall to carry water away..
    You might be lucky and find that the original ground is free-draining, in which case you'll just need to backfill with topsoil.
    If and when you do a bit of a trial dig, post up a pic of the soil profile so we can have a look and maybe offer advice :)


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    #21
    pleuraXeraphim
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭pleuraXeraphim


    slowburner wrote: »
    If and when you do a bit of a trial dig, post up a pic of the soil profile so we can have a look and maybe offer advice :)

    Hey

    Here is a picture of the near section to the house when I was digging in December. You can get a small idea of the soil underneath. I will try and dig a proper sample over the weekend and plan out the drains and the work ahead.

    Looking at the picture again reminds me of how bad the soil was underneath. Lots of stones and grit. Would a rotavator be worth it here. How deep does a standard rotivator dig. Maybe the top level should really be stripped away and proper top soil put on it. To the far end of that small trench the water was trapped about a foot underground, however that area of the garden doesnt really have a problem with drainage as much as the rest of the garden.


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    #22
    Sgt Pepper 64
    Registered Users Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Sgt Pepper 64


    That is shocking.
    There is no way I would accept that.
    I would demand that he comes back and does it properly this time


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    #23
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »
    That is shocking.
    There is no way I would accept that.
    I would demand that he comes back and does it properly this time

    Second that.


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    #24
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Here's a scan of a page from the book mentioned above which shows the method I spoke about. He suggests larger quantities, though. Sorry about the image quality.


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    #25
    pleuraXeraphim
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭pleuraXeraphim


    Sgt Pepper 64> I dont think there is a hope of getting him to fix it at this stage. Unfortunately.

    I had a guy in this evening and his quote came in at €1850 to put in 2 drains and rotavate, cultivate, level in 4 tonnes of topsoil and then seed.

    I am definitely gonna have to give this a try as we cannot afford that at the moment. To be honest I cant wait to get started on this. It's gonna be very tough work but it will be a challenging and a rewarding project.

    Oh and slowburner thanks a million for going to the effort of scanning in the book page. Really appreciated.

    Will keep ye posted :)


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    #26
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    pleuraXeraphim wrote: »
    Sgt Pepper 64> I dont think there is a hope of getting him to fix it at this stage. Unfortunately.

    I had a guy in this evening and his quote came in at €1850 to put in 2 drains and rotavate, cultivate, level in 4 tonnes of topsoil and then seed.

    I am definitely gonna have to give this a try as we cannot afford that at the moment. To be honest I cant wait to get started on this. It's gonna be very tough work but it will be a challenging and a rewarding project.

    Oh and slowburner thanks a million for going to the effort of scanning in the book page. Really appreciated.

    Will keep ye posted :)

    I'd be interested to hear how much he would quote for doing it using the method I mentioned. I presume by cultivate, he means rake to a fine tilth? - Just checking ;)


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    #27
    monkeynuz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭monkeynuz


    Hi pleuraXeraphim,

    The first thing I would do is in front of the shed I would dig an area the width of the shed and two or three feet out and dig down at least four inches and fill it up with gravel, you could use bricks on their side for the edging or something else, that would give a neater entrance to the shed and also prevent a muddy puddle in front of it, because no matter how smooth or well drained a lawn is, if you keep treading around in the same place in the wet weather you will eventually make it muddy....just think of a football goalmouth after the winter!

    Builders leaving rubbish and rubble and the metal banding used for pallets of bricks and scaffold boards etc. after a job is very very common, I know someone who managed to build a raised herb garden from all of the bricks he dug up from his new build garden!

    Hope this helps.

    All the best.

    M.


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    #28
    Sgt Pepper 64
    Registered Users Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Sgt Pepper 64


    pleuraXeraphim wrote: »
    Sgt Pepper 64> I dont think there is a hope of getting him to fix it at this stage. Unfortunately.

    I had a guy in this evening and his quote came in at €1850 to put in 2 drains and rotavate, cultivate, level in 4 tonnes of topsoil and then seed.

    I am definitely gonna have to give this a try as we cannot afford that at the moment. To be honest I cant wait to get started on this. It's gonna be very tough work but it will be a challenging and a rewarding project.

    Oh and slowburner thanks a million for going to the effort of scanning in the book page. Really appreciated.

    Will keep ye posted :)

    1850? wow thats a lot of money!


    http://gardeningblog.mirror.co.uk/new-house-new-garden/

    http://www.gardenseeker.com/vegetables/soil/poor_soil_vegetables.htm

    http://www.lawnandmower.com/installing-lawn-drainage.aspx

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W85QmZgDxFk

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/gardening/basics/techniques/soil_digging1.shtml


    I would def tackle it yourself.
    Try approaching it by dividing the garden into more manageable sections. That way it wont be so daunting.
    Dig or double dig one section at a time and before you know it, you will be a lot fitter! I think you will have to dig and clear it before then rotavating it.
    I reckon if you could find a east european worker they would do it for a fraction of the cost.
    Best of luck and before you know it you will have a beautiful garden


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    #29
    Sgt Pepper 64
    Registered Users Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Sgt Pepper 64


    Oh and how about putting some nice climbers on those walls?
    Clematis etc. They actually dont like it dry at their "feet"


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    #30
    monkeynuz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭monkeynuz


    Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »
    Oh and how about putting some nice climbers on those walls?
    Clematis etc. They actually dont like it dry at their "feet"

    But don't forget that Clematis like to be shaded at their feet also. :)

    M.


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    #31
    pleuraXeraphim
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭pleuraXeraphim


    Been a busy weekend and I think I've have made a good start. :) Armed with a Pickaxe, and a shovel I spent about 6 hours this weekend digging. See photos below.

    slowburner, monkeynuz, Sgt Pepper 64

    I decided to do the drains for now despite your suggestions :) I felt it would be a bit more manageable for me and also there is a good fall-off underneath the back wall (Pre-case concrete) which can carry water away. I have started a Pit in front of the shed and will fill it with the rocks I am unearthing. Once that is done I will put some paving stones in front.

    Once I have the drains complete I am not really sure what I should do then with the rest of the garden. I have put drains in where the drainage is bad but for the rest of the garden I just want have a nice even surface.
    Would I need to remove the grass before rotivating ? The ground underneath doesn't seem to be too bad in places and there is a good few inches of turf under the grass. So with drainage sorted I am wondering if its needed to dig too much. But I do want a smooth lawn.

    Here are my options as I see them:

    1) Once drains are complete. Rotavate the ground (with grass as is) and then rake out and make the surface smooth. Then cover with a thin layer of top soil all over. Rake until level and then seed.

    2) Get a turf cutter. Strip off the upper grass layer. Then maybe rotavate and then put in top soil sovering and seed grass.

    3) Do as you were suggesting. Just dig the garden with a fork section by section. Then bring in a rovatator and after cover with top soil etc. But that would be a lot of digging. :)

    4) Just bring in top soil and cover over directly on to the grass thats there.

    Anyway here are some photos of the dig this weekend preceded by a schematic plan for the where the drains would go.

    Image 1
    Schematic of where I have planned to put the drains (The red lines). I will put a Pit in front of the shed about a metre deep and fill with stones. I am not sure about the drain to the right of the patio. Should the drain go closer to the wall ? See picture image 2 for explanation.

    garden_drains.jpg

    Image 2
    The blue line is where I plan on putting the next drain. The whole ground there is uneven and soggy all year round. But especially all along the wall. There is a green area at a higher elevation on the other side of the wall resulting in water seeping through. So should I run the drain closer to the wall where it is very wet . Or is it located close enough to be effective for the whole area. I will eventually put a garden bed along the wall but I dont want it to be affected by the water seepage.

    garden1.jpg

    Image 3
    Side profile showing the middle drain and the pit I have started digging in front of the shed.

    garden4.jpg

    Image 4
    Front on view of the drains after the weekend. Must finish the Pit and start digging the other trench on other side of the patio.
    garden2.jpg

    Image 5
    View of the Pit I have started digging. I am over a foot and a Half down and have hit that large stone and planks of wood. Would have explained some of the poor drainage.
    garden3.jpg

    Just to note the soil was good in places. In general there were lots of stones and it was quite shaly requiring a pickaxe to break it up. There wasnt too much builders debri encountered.


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