FG get finance, Labour get public sector reform

RobbieTheRobber · 07-03-2011 03:15PM

Sleepy wrote: »

It's safe to say that with Labour at the helm, public sector reform will be nowhere near the level it needs to be (it's simply impossible to bring it under control without taking an axe to staff or salary levels - and a strategy of voluntary redundancies will lead to the best and brightest of the PS leaving, not the deadweight).

You make two points here one that voluntary redundancy will see the brightest and best leave ,and in point two you lament the lack of an axe being taken to wages.

Do you not feel that taking an axe to wages would see the brightest and best leave?

Chardee MacDennis · 07-03-2011 03:24PM

Gov will collapse in a year or two and FF will at least double their seats if they stick with this imo.

well done FG; **** in opposition and now even ****ter in power...

Pharaoh1 · 07-03-2011 04:40PM

Has anyone given the figures on how much the PS pay and pensions bill will decrease by over the next say 2-3 years?
With pensions and lump sums to be paid out together with some recruitment there seems to be no idea of the figures.
How much will increments add to the cost? FG very subtly avoided all mention of this during the election.

Also am I alone in thinking the entire programme for govt is a complete sham.
No income tax rises, no PS pay cuts, no welfare cuts, no cuts in childrens allowance, water and property tax maybe in a couple of years, VAT cuts as well as an increases, no college fees, selling of any assets long fingered and lots more vague stuff.

You would think we didn't have a deficit at all. What are the EU/IMF making of all this or will we be in for a massive shock in a few months time when we are instructed to take some firm action.

I'm also amazed by the media reaction - with a few notable exceptions.
Brendan Keenan has a good piece in the indo today where he observes that only 2 of the 64 pages deal with the public finance crisis.
Maybe it is intended to be a sham and within a short time it will all be in the dustbin.
Anyone have an idea - I'm lost.

murphaph · 07-03-2011 09:11PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

You make two points here one that voluntary redundancy will see the brightest and best leave ,and in point two you lament the lack of an axe being taken to wages.

Do you not feel that taking an axe to wages would see the brightest and best leave?

Just axe the pay of people who are overpaid compared to the private sector or public sectors elsewhere in Europe. There'll be nowhere to scarper off to if this is done. More menial workers (binmen etc.) can be paid a bit less than the private sector as they have no special skills that would enable them to leave at the drop of a hat.

The bulk of the public sector is not made up of brain surgeons and even these characters are way overpaid compared to their counterparts in say, Germany or the UK.

Sleepy · 07-03-2011 10:10PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

You make two points here one that voluntary redundancy will see the brightest and best leave ,and in point two you lament the lack of an axe being taken to wages.

Do you not feel that taking an axe to wages would see the brightest and best leave?

In normal circumstances, you might be right. However, we're not in normal circumstances. The only ones that'll take a lucrative voluntary redundancy package will be those that can find work in the private sector, or are near enough to retirement that the package will be little more than an early retirement package.

When I say "taking an axe" to the PS, I'd much rather see a scalpel taken to it to cut numbers prudently i.e. cutting those that aren't worth their salaries or reducing their salaries to what they are worth. The problem is, the unions won't allow that - the entire basis of collective bargaining rests on allowing those that aren't worth their salaries to hide behind those that are.

The other fact is that, in these circumstances, cutting salaries isn't as difficult as it might otherwise be. If you were to use as blunt an instrument as a full on 20% paycut for all PS staff, what are they going to do besides whinge? The salaries they're on are *much* higher than the private sector equivalent so there's nowhere to go there that they'll be better off. It's not nice, but tbh, it's not nice knowing that there are people who don't work as hard as you / aren't as productive as you who are being paid more than you because the last government were spineless / corrupt / incompetent / friends of those we're overpaying.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 07-03-2011 11:49PM

I think this coalition suites everyone and noone at the same time.

If things go belly-up, Fine Gael will blame Labour as Fine Gael have had to make compromises. Labour will blame Fine Gael as they are the majority party,FF will blame FG, Sinn Fein will blame both Labour/Fine Gael and the ULA will just blame everyone as usual.

All the while we'll make no progress and just be in a worse state than now.

We needed a majority FG goverment imo, or at the very least a Labour majority.

gigino · 08-03-2011 12:33AM

DanDan6592 wrote: »

We needed a majority FG goverment imo, or at the very least a Labour majority.

or a FG supported by FF on economic matters ( reverse Tallaght Strategy )

ArtSmart · 08-03-2011 01:26AM

Flex wrote: »

I find this attitude very disappointing. With the state the economy is in and the terrible predictions on the horizon for the country, there are still sections of society who feel they should be mollycoddled and indulged by the government in order to agree to be 'brought along'... Left wing economic influence in the government will ensure we'll never get out of this mess, just as it did in the 1980's.

you favour the aul fascist approach I take it?

damned people of the state and their damned democracy!

well, at least private employers can savage their employees, so all is not lost.

gigino · 08-03-2011 02:49AM

"All is not lost ?"

I am afraid that for more than a few people in the private sector, all is lost. They have lost their jobs, their businesses, their pensions, their investments, what they often spent 20 or 30 years building up.

Time the mollycoddled public sector realised that, and joined the real world.

murphaph · 08-03-2011 08:36AM

ArtSmart wrote: »

you favour the aul fascist approach I take it?

damned people of the state and their damned democracy!

well, at least private employers can savage their employees, so all is not lost.

Paying people what they are worth and no more is not "savaging" them. Irish public servants are overpaid compared to their private sector equivalents and to their public sector counterparts in the countries that are now lending us money to pay their wages.

You make an interesting point about democracy and you seem to have missed the irony of it. The vast bulk of the electorate have a gun placed to their heads by a small minority of that electorate and are threatened with strikes if their pay premium is not maintained. Interesting form of democracy.

ArtSmart · 08-03-2011 11:12AM

ArtSmart wrote: »

you favour the aul fascist approach I take it?

damned people of the state and their damned democracy!

well, at least private employers can savage their employees, so all is not lost.

murphaph wrote: »

Paying people what they are worth and no more is not "savaging" them.

I agree. Tell IBEC that.

Irish public servants are overpaid compared to their private sector equivalents

sigh.

and to their public sector counterparts in the countries that are now lending us money to pay their wages.

true. but relative to cost of living factors? I remember Fintan O' Toole dissected that myth some time ago.

You make an interesting point about democracy and you seem to have missed the irony of it. The vast bulk of the electorate have a gun placed to their heads by a small minority of that electorate and are threatened with strikes if their pay premium is not maintained. Interesting form of democracy.

apparently a democracy can be judged 'by its treatment of minorities' - (Gandhi i think)
public servants are a bit more than a minority however.
plus far as i remember one of the principles of democracy is agreement - as opposed to coercion.

but this much is for sure - start playing hardball with the public/civil servants at this stage and you'll get a major push back - that last thing we need.

On the labour = reform - I'd rather appoint an ambitious ex-poacher to the position of gamekeeper than a young earl full of beans and little else.

anyway, thing is this.

Europe/ the US got rich over the last two decades because of the rise of consumers (amongst other things of course.)

wages to public servants are spread across the country - pretty much in equal ratios to population. (teachers, garda etc etc.) and to a lesser extent, civil servants.

reduce their monies and you reduce their capacity to consume, locally and otherwise.

the childlike book-keeping exercise of FF - balance the books at all costs, is and was a disaster. removing more and more money from the economy - especially the consumer class = economic stagnation and the death of SMEs.

dots03 · 08-03-2011 11:36AM

BastardPrince wrote: »

Gov will collapse in a year or two and FF will at least double their seats if they stick with this imo.

well done FG; **** in opposition and now even ****ter in power...

How about everyone reserves judgement on this coalition until they are actually in Government and have time to implement policy.

Analysing the success and impact of a new government or a specific appointment at this stage is a little premature...but this is the general problem with analysis (and journalism) in this country.

Gumbo · 08-03-2011 12:00PM

gigino wrote: »

I am afraid that for more than a few people in the private sector, all is lost. They have lost their jobs, their businesses, their pensions, their investments, what they often spent 20 or 30 years building up.

and alot more HAVENT lost their jobs, income or pensions or investments.
why quite alot have got pay increases including those in retail work (Dunnes Stores etc), AIB, BOI etc etc etc

most pensions have stabilsed and are now back to their boom time values, you need to check your figures gigino......

my private pension with AIB from my previous job is still up at least 15% on my contributions and im sure there are more that paid alot more than me as i didnt put much in tbh.

th3 s1aught3r · 08-03-2011 01:55PM

kceire wrote: »

and alot more HAVENT lost their jobs, income or pensions or investments.
why quite alot have got pay increases including those in retail work (Dunnes Stores etc), AIB, BOI etc etc etc

.

On what basis were people working in AIB, BOI given pay increases?. Its seems odd seeing as the banks are insolvent and using public money to stay afloat

galway2007 · 08-03-2011 02:49PM

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

Surely it should have been the other way round....
Labour should be sorting out the banks and FG should be sorting out the public sector. Are they taking the piss with a Labour Minister, whose party are beholden to the public sector unions, are seriously going to reform the PS in any meaningful way ?

And think that private sector idiots voted FG thinking they were going to screw the public sector
No wonder this country is ****ed

galway2007 · 08-03-2011 02:56PM

murphaph wrote: »

Just axe the pay of people who are overpaid compared to the private sector or public sectors elsewhere in Europe. There'll be nowhere to scarper off to if this is done. More menial workers (binmen etc.) can be paid a bit less than the private sector as they have no special skills that would enable them to leave at the drop of a hat.

The bulk of the public sector is not made up of brain surgeons and even these characters are way overpaid compared to their counterparts in say, Germany or the UK.

They have to cut your dole first

RobbieTheRobber · 08-03-2011 03:00PM

Sleepy wrote: »

In normal circumstances, you might be right. However, we're not in normal circumstances. The only ones that'll take a lucrative voluntary redundancy package will be those that can find work in the private sector, or are near enough to retirement that the package will be little more than an early retirement package.

This is debatable, the most likely to leave will be the young and unmarried\childless.

When I say "taking an axe" to the PS, I'd much rather see a scalpel taken to it to cut numbers prudently i.e. cutting those that aren't worth their salaries or reducing their salaries to what they are worth. The problem is, the unions won't allow that - the entire basis of collective bargaining rests on allowing those that aren't worth their salaries to hide behind those that are.

But you didnt say a sclapel you said an axe which sends a clear message to me, that your not looking for reform but retribution!

Rarely is their need to call an axeman when you only want a trim!

The other fact is that, in these circumstances, cutting salaries isn't as difficult as it might otherwise be. If you were to use as blunt an instrument as a full on 20% paycut for all PS staff, what are they going to do besides whinge? The salaries they're on are *much* higher than the private sector equivalent so there's nowhere to go there that they'll be better off. It's not nice, but tbh, it's not nice knowing that there are people who don't work as hard as you / aren't as productive as you who are being paid more than you because the last government were spineless / corrupt / incompetent / friends of those we're overpaying.

Are you basing these claims on the average wage?
do you know how many people who are none frontline staff(the untouchables) earn this PS average wage of 55,000?

gigino · 08-03-2011 03:25PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

do you know how many people who are none frontline staff(the untouchables) earn this PS average wage of 55,000?

Frontline and backline staff, managers and cleaners ....this average p.s. wage south of the border needs to be brought more in line with eg UK average public sector wage of 22 or 23k stg a year, as we simply cannot afford to keep paying our public servants twice what the UK pays theirs. Our public service unions are taking the piss completely and ruining / have ruined the country, along with the regulator, central bank , government and bankers. ( all of whom are effectively public service now, with the pay and pension, and none of whom have been punished.). I am surprised there are not marches / demonstrations about this by the ordinary people, most of whom are not public sector union members.

Gumbo · 08-03-2011 03:31PM

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

On what basis were people working in AIB, BOI given pay increases?. Its seems odd seeing as the banks are insolvent and using public money to stay afloat

yes AIB paid a 3.5% pay increase to every staff member below manager lever in or around October 2009 in conjunction with the "Towards 2016 agreement", PS staff were due to get this also but it was scrapped to the PS.

BOI was a more bonus thing, sorry not a pay rise.

gigino wrote: »

Frontline and backline staff, managers and cleaners ....this average p.s. wage south of the border needs to be brought more in line with eg UK average public sector wage of 22 or 23k stg a year

you cannot pay somebody in Ireland a rate the same as the UK/NI, its an irrelevant argument, given the much lower cost of living in the UK/NI and many many other european countries.

th3 s1aught3r · 08-03-2011 03:35PM

galway2007 wrote: »

And think that private sector idiots voted FG thinking they were going to screw the public sector
No wonder this country is ****ed

No I think they voted FG so that they would reform the public sector
I dont think you can call them idiots for doing that

hatrickpatrick · 08-03-2011 03:35PM

zephyro wrote: »

Eh? The reason we're in this mess is because 1) the government guaranteed all the liabilities of the Irish banks and 2) the government increased spending hugely based on a temporary increase in tax revenues.

I think you're all missing the point of what I'm saying.
Deregulation is a right wing ideal, not a left wing one. We would never have had a property bubble at all if not for the anarcho-capitalist policies followed by the government which allowed a totally UN regulated sector to take over the entire economy.

deise blue · 08-03-2011 03:50PM

kceire wrote: »

yes AIB paid a 3.5% pay increase to every staff member below manager lever in or around October 2009 in conjunction with the "Towards 2016 agreement", PS staff were due to get this also but it was scrapped to the PS.

BOI was a more bonus thing, sorry not a pay rise.

you cannot pay somebody in Ireland a rate the same as the UK/NI, its an irrelevant argument, given the much lower cost of living in the UK/NI and many many other european countries.

Just to clarify matters , BOI staff received the 3.5 % increase under the towards 2016 Agreement months before AIB staff .

later12 · 08-03-2011 03:52PM

deise blue wrote: »

Just to clarify matters , BOI staff received the 3.5 % increase under the towards 2016 Agreement months before AIB staff .

and just to clarify even further (although not to dismiss the increase) so did many other private companies who may or may not still be around, and the increase applied to lower level staff who would not have been directly responsible for policy and lending. It really was a case of cashiers, clerks and porters getting that money.

gigino · 08-03-2011 04:04PM

kceire wrote: »

yes AIB paid a 3.5% pay increase to every staff member .

but AIB are effectively public sector now. They cannot be held as representative of the 1.8 million strong private sector, most of whom did not get a 3.5% pay increase. Average wages in the private sector are still only a fractuon of average public sector wages. Average industrial wage is in the very low thirties, and most staff in the retail / hospitality sector etc are not even on that.

kceire wrote: »

you cannot pay somebody in Ireland a rate the same as the UK/NI, its an irrelevant argument, given the much lower cost of living in the UK/NI.

Thats been gone through before. It does not cost a public sector worker € 25,0000 a year more to live in Cavan compared to Armagh. In fact north of the border diesel/ petrol is a lot more expensive, and people have to pay property tax, water rates etc there. Have a look at the relative mansions south of the border in Cavan, and the lifestyle of public servants on both sides of the border. Unfortunately by the FF government doubling expenditure on public sector between 99 and 2009 , ( with the help of the bearded " social partners " ), many problems were created.

FG putting labour in charge of public sector reform is like putting an alcoholic in charge of drink quotas at a party.

Gumbo · 08-03-2011 04:32PM

gigino wrote: »

Thats been gone through before. It does not cost a public sector worker € 25,0000 a year more to live in Cavan compared to Armagh. In fact north of the border diesel/ petrol is a lot more expensive, and people have to pay property tax, water rates etc there. Have a look at the relative mansions south of the border in Cavan, and the lifestyle of public servants on both sides of the border. Unfortunately by the FF government doubling expenditure on public sector between 99 and 2009 , ( with the help of the bearded " social partners " ), many problems were created.

FG putting labour in charge of public sector reform is like putting an alcoholic in charge of drink quotas at a party.

Just because you dispute it, doesn't make it fact. It's your opinion and that's all it is I'm afraid.

Give me a uk standard of living for uk salaries and taxes and j won't argue with you continious posting of same.

RobbieTheRobber · 08-03-2011 04:35PM

gigino wrote: »

Our public service unions are taking the piss completely and ruining / have ruined the country, along with the regulator, central bank , government and bankers. ( all of whom are effectively public service now, with the pay and pension, and none of whom have been punished.). I am surprised there are not marches / demonstrations about this by the ordinary people, most of whom are not public sector union members.

The union is merely a collection of members are you accusing the rank and file members of the PS of ruining this country?

Shall we call for the axeman again, amidst cries of off with their heads! :rolleyes:

RobbieTheRobber · 08-03-2011 04:37PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I think you're all missing the point of what I'm saying.
Deregulation is a right wing ideal, not a left wing one. We would never have had a property bubble at all if not for the anarcho-capitalist policies followed by the government which allowed a totally UN regulated sector to take over the entire economy.

Perhaps it is, but i dont believe allowing rampant speculation which creates bubbles such as we had is either right or left thinking. i would describe it as just bad thinking!

RobbieTheRobber · 08-03-2011 04:42PM

gigino wrote: »

but AIB are effectively public sector now. They cannot be held as representative of the 1.8 million strong private sector, most of whom did not get a 3.5% pay increase. Average wages in the private sector are still only a fractuon of average public sector wages. Average industrial wage is in the very low thirties, and most staff in the retail / hospitality sector etc are not even on that.

Im sorry i dispute your use of the word effectively, becasue effectively measn in reality. In reality AIB are still a private company not a state body and certainly not a public sector body! :rolleyes:

Thats been gone through before. It does not cost a public sector worker € 25,0000 a year more to live in Cavan compared to Armagh. In fact north of the border diesel/ petrol is a lot more expensive, and people have to pay property tax, water rates etc there. Have a look at the relative mansions south of the border in Cavan, and the lifestyle of public servants on both sides of the border. Unfortunately by the FF government doubling expenditure on public sector between 99 and 2009 , ( with the help of the bearded " social partners " ), many problems were created.

FG putting labour in charge of public sector reform is like putting an alcoholic in charge of drink quotas at a party.

Enough of your cavan and armagh!

What about differences between belfast and dublin?

danbohan · 08-03-2011 04:48PM

kceire wrote: »

Just because you dispute it, doesn't make it fact. It's your opinion and that's all it is I'm afraid.

Give me a uk standard of living for uk salaries and taxes and j won't argue with you continious posting of same.

Give me

thats what got us where we are isnt it , give me mortgage for 500k , give me car loan for 50k

sorry baby we cant ''give you '' anymore , paymaster in germany will demand and rightly so that you stop behaving like a spoilt brat and live like the rest of europe trys to on whatever salary is available in our bankrupt country , take it or leave it

ArtSmart · 08-03-2011 04:49PM

gigino wrote: »

but AIB are effectively public sector now. They cannot be held as representative of the 1.8 million strong private sector, most of whom did not get a 3.5% pay increase. Average wages in the private sector are still only a fractuon of average public sector wages. Average industrial wage is in the very low thirties, and most staff in the retail / hospitality sector etc are not even on that.

what bout increasing private sector wages? What good is a consumer class that can't consume?

Unfortunately by the FF government doubling expenditure on public sector between 99 and 2009 , ( with the help of the bearded " social partners " ), many problems were created.

I take serious umbrage to that statement. A lot of those guys are clean shaven - (although some of the wimim are beards, truth be told.)

FG putting labour in charge of public sector reform is like putting an alcoholic in charge of drink quotas at a party.

exactly. (the bold bit)

who better than an alcoholic to hoard / hide beers? Havent you seen those Heineken ads?

FG get finance, Labour get public sector reform

Comments